Is there a chart or something out there that tells how much a putt breaks?

[teddyironboy]

Say you have a 10 footer, 2% slope to the left, 11 stimp green. Be cool to have a chart that says "aim 2 cups to the right". I think Bryson must have something like this.

 

(I do know aimpoint is a thing, but I think this could be better)

Edited July 17, 2023 by teddyironboy

[noblesin]

LOL

[SNIPERBBB]

Aimpoint does have charts that give the numbers. 

[iacas]

34 minutes ago, teddyironboy said:

I do know aimpoint is a thing, but I think this could be better

 

That's literally AimPoint… yeah.

[golf-RN]

3 hours ago, teddyironboy said:

Say you have a 10 footer, 2% slope to the left, 11 stimp green. Be cool to have a chart that says "aim 2 cups to the right". I think Bryson must have something like this.

 

(I do know aimpoint is a thing, but I think this could be better)

May not be exactly what you're looking for, but Golflogix has Greenbooks for a ton of courses which shows yardage maps and the undulations of the greens in a heat map and shows break directions of the whole green. It is actually very helpful. One of the local courses I play has the Golflogix set up on the cart GPS and shows the heat map and break directions of the green you are on and it really does work nicely. Ultimately you still have to determine how to hit the putt (speed, line, etc.) but it puts you in a great direction on the read. You can get it digitally and a physical book, but the books are like $50 each.

 

The app is maybe exactly what you want, has a yearly subscription but could be worth it? I don't know but looks cool

Edited July 18, 2023 by golf-RN
can't spell lol

[mizunoMP14]

https://tourreadgolf.com/getapp/

[North Butte]

I think you fundamentally misunderstand what golf is.

[doctor220]

1 hour ago, North Butte said:

I think you fundamentally misunderstand what golf is.

Nah, determining how to aim your golf ball is pretty fundamental to golf 

[nosil]

14 hours ago, teddyironboy said:

(I do know aimpoint is a thing, but I think this could be better)

 

What you are describing is the full version of aimpoint and not the express version.  

 

There is also the vector read method which is no more but used a point on the zero break line instead of left or right of the hole.   You can also look up Geoff Mangum's work and he provides the math formulas to do this calculation.   

[TonyRo]

The Tour Read App by Ralph Bauer has exactly these charts - individual tables for each stimp that contains aimpoint outside the edge of the cup in inches versus % slope for putts 3-60' or so in even increments. It's a very useful thing to have an understanding of, even though there are practical limitations. My aimpoint instructor told me that a majority of top pros have studied and memorized these charts as well. And because aimpoint distance outside the hole is linear with % slope, you actually only need to memorize the 1% line, since a 2% slope you just double the distance outside the hole. Additionally, aimpoint distance away from the hole is also linear with putt distance, so you only need to memorize one aimpoint and the aimpoint/putt distance slope. As an example, I know that at 9 stimp and 1%, at 5' the aimpoint is exactly the edge of the hole and it's 6" per 10' of putt distance. So at 15' you're at 6" outside, 25' you're at 1' outside, etc. At 2% you'd double the distance away FROM THE CENTER OF THE CUP, etc. 

 

This is not a perfect system however, as this only works on flat putts and at exact stimps. There is usually some uphill or downhill component, and most greens will play in between slightly, etc. But I find that understanding the charts and knowing them is a great way to get AimPoint calibrated on any given day, and for getting exact breaks on flat putts. 

[iacas]

11 hours ago, TonyRo said:

you actually only need to memorize the 1% line, since a 2% slope you just double the distance outside the hole

 

That's not true. It's close on uphill putts, but starts to fall apart quickly on downhill or sidehill putts… and falls apart even more when you get to 3% or something. (45° down is 8" outside the cup at one stimp at 1%, and is 42" at 3% - a 5x+ multiplier.)

 

I know you said the stuff at the end about flat putts (even at 90° to the slope, it's still not quite right: 13" 1%, 49" 3%)… but it's closer, yeah.

 

Regardless, not many PGA Tour players still use the charts or know the numbers anymore.

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by iacas

[Sean124]

It would be cool if on that 2% slope, you could just aim 2 fingers right regardless of the length. 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Sean124

[TonyRo]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

That's not true.

This is purely on flat putts. 

[bladehunter]

On 7/17/2023 at 5:36 PM, iacas said:

 

That's literally AimPoint… yeah.

Bro this isn’t 7 minute abs.  It’s 6 minute abs. 
 

 

 

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, TonyRo said:

This is purely on flat putts. 

 

It's still not true:

 

2 hours ago, iacas said:

(even at 90° to the slope, it's still not quite right: 13" 1%, 49" 3%)

 

49" is over 3.75x 13" (and 51" is 3.4x 15").

[teddyironboy]

Thanks for the replies. Yea greens are imperfect, but I feel like this can serve a great baseline for where to aim.

 

Quick replying without digging deeper. But I wonder, like say you have a putt that is 10 stimp on a flat surface, but downhill causes it to be 20 stimp. Using the equation could you just calculate it as a flat putt but 20 stimp?

 

[TonyRo]

9 hours ago, iacas said:

It's still not true:

Can I see the data? How off is it? Assuming it's true is also the foundation of AimPoint Express, so that'd mean that pretty much everyone is wrong...

[tatertot]

No wonder a round of golf takes 5 hours now.

[ShortGolfer]

A quick and easy way to determine how much your putt breaks is to have a great wedge game so you can get you ball closer to the hole than your partner(s). They have to putt first!

Then you need to carefully watch every single putt you can to learn about how the green is playing right now.  No closing your eyes if you miss!  Rookie mistake! 

You need to see how the ball reacts around the hole.

 

If the foursome ahead of you is playing really slow, would it be legal to watch putting using binoculars?  I read that they can be used to ID a ball in a tree.

Edited July 19, 2023 by ShortGolfer

[PracticeSwinger]

1 hour ago, teddyironboy said:

 

Bear with me numbers guys as I'm trying to figure something out from that chart, maybe it's common knowledge...

 

Let's look at the 1% slope line for the uphill putts; Stimp8 an Stimp10.

 

My understanding of the chart is that a 1% uphill putt would go 7.3 feet on Stimp8, compared to a flat putt that would go 8 feet obviously... So, the uphill 1% putt is covering 91% of the distance that a flat putt would at Stimp8. Now, same application for Stimp10 - the uphill putt would go 8.9 feet while the flat one goes 10 feet obviously - thus covering 89% of the distance.

 

That is generalized all the way through the chart - which would imply that an uphill putt of equivalent slope would get closer to the hole (in %) on slower greens than on faster ones, if your stroke didn't account for the slope - is that true and common knowledge?

 

I'm asking because I thought it was counterintuitive (unless I'm way off interpreting that chart), as the downhill putts make sense, in that if you didn't take into account for the slope on your stroke - the ball would end up a lot further past the hole on faster greens than slower ones

 

 

[larrybud]

You understand the chart correctly. 

I suspect the difference in how much the putt "covers" relative for each stimp is due mainly to air resistance, but I can't believe anybody is thinking of that in term of percentage the length of putt.

[PracticeSwinger]

26 minutes ago, larrybud said:

You understand the chart correctly. 

I suspect the difference in how much the putt "covers" relative for each stimp is due mainly to air resistance, but I can't believe anybody is thinking of that in term of percentage the length of putt.

Agreed, and thanks for that clarification, I just thought the 'pure' numbers were odd since intuitively you'd think an uphill putt wouldn't 'cover' more relative distance on slower greens than faster ones. Biggest takeaway from that chart is confirming the dangerous fast green big slope downhill putt compared to it's uphill equivalent and the 'green light' aspect it brings even on fast greens, it won't get much past the hole

[larrybud]

My takeaway is that your speed control has to be more precise on downhill putts, since the slope influences downhill more than uphill as function of total distance.

 

I think most people have no clue as to what "stimp" relates to, however. Almost everybody overestimates the stimp of the greens they are playing on.

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by larrybud

[iacas]

3 hours ago, TonyRo said:

Can I see the data? How off is it?

 

Sure. Just find an old AimPoint chart.

 

3 hours ago, TonyRo said:

Assuming it's true is also the foundation of AimPoint Express, so that'd mean that pretty much everyone is wrong...

 

That's why it's "Express." It's not exact, but it does generally give people much better reads than they'd get on their own.

[ChaosTheory]

On 7/17/2023 at 4:01 PM, teddyironboy said:

Say you have a 10 footer, 2% slope to the left, 11 stimp green. Be cool to have a chart that says "aim 2 cups to the right". I think Bryson must have something like this.

 

(I do know aimpoint is a thing, but I think this could be better)

 

I haven't read to the bottom, but such charts were provided with the original Aimpoint classes.  I have one. 

So in your example question, assuming you are putting at 90 degrees from the fall line, the aim point is 11" outside the hole.  (edited for typo)

Edited July 19, 2023 by Snowman9000

[ChaosTheory]

4 hours ago, tatertot said:

No wonder a round of golf takes 5 hours now.

 

Sheeeit. Fast greens are why golf takes so long, or at least putting's contribution to it.

 

I use my own adaptation of Aimpoint, and I read the putt faster than a lot guys who walk all around, plumb bob, etc.  And some guys don't spend a ton of time on the read, but they grind over the ball for several seconds, fiddling with the putter aim and such.  Once I get my read, I get over the ball and send it.  Now, if you just walk up, see it and hit it, of course any other method is gonna be slower. 

 

 

 

 

[teddyironboy]

Pro tip. I don’t know if it’s legal. But to judge break you can stand in the line aimpoint style, hold putter loosely from sternum, make sure weight is even in each foot. And see which side the putter goes compared to your belly button. Even better if you know how far 1%, 2%, etc is from your midline. At least this way you should never have a situation where you think “how did it break right?” unless the ball hit a random bump