USGA Qualifiers Beware. Vice Pro Plus Lime & several others not on current USGA List of Conforming Golf Balls

[North Butte]

Not a serious ball company IMO. Apparently just a bunch of marketers.

[cardigan]

11 hours ago, Yuck said:

Very disappointed in the situation since I like the ball.  I did write customer service and my only suggestion was they post something on their website about the ball not being current legal for tournament play.  Instead, this is still on the website.

 

 

OUR BALLS

Premium models for beginners to
professionals.

• 5 different ball models
• Market-leading price/performance ratio
• All VICE balls conform with USGA & R&A rules

 

I also asked to return about 12 dozen of the 14 dozen balls I purchased under the false pretense that they were tournament legal.  Vice responded by crediting me back for 1 dozen balls.  Since some of the balls I purchased were “legal” for a few weeks before the USGA removed them from the list, they did not accept my request for a return, not even for the 4 dozen of them were purchased after the UGGA removed them from the list.

 

 End of rant.

I definitely understand your frustration but I don't think that it's very surprising that they've made a business decision to not open the door to accepting returns on all balls purchased over the last couple of months or so,

[Yuck]

PRODUCT DEFECTS / MISREPRESENTATION
If the return is due to a product misrepresentation or product defect, please contact a Customer Care Agent at [email protected].

 

I was attempting to return based on this published policy.  Balls were misrepresented as USGA Tournament legal.  No time frame indicated in the policy.  The reality is they do not honor this policy.

[Yuck]

Well I have hit my head against the wall enough on this issue.  I am just going to donate these to the local Jr Golf Program.

 

 

[jls667]

45 minutes ago, Yuck said:

Well I have hit my head against the wall enough on this issue.  I am just going to donate these to the local Jr Golf Program.

 

 

 

I mean, it does seem like they're going to correct it and fairly soon based on other posts. If you really liked them, then it doesn't seem like it makes sense to ditch them immediately. 

 

I also emailed them this morning about this issue. Not because I have a highly competitive round/USGA round soon but because I finally gave them a try for the past few weeks and honestly love them, and if hate to go all in on them if they won't conform for the long haul. For me, as long as the issue is rectified in the near future then I don't really care. It's obviously a ball that conformed before and will confirm again. It's just not on the list today. Its a much different scenario if all colors/versions of the Pro Plus were removed because of something that came up regarding its performance rather than what appears to be a paperwork issue.

 

That said, I do hope this is just a blip. I really like the ball but would hate to see the company start to run into issues due to laziness or repeated "clerical errors."

 

If they email me back with some new or interesting info on this, I'll post it here.

[cardigan]

1 hour ago, Yuck said:

PRODUCT DEFECTS / MISREPRESENTATION
If the return is due to a product misrepresentation or product defect, please contact a Customer Care Agent at [email protected].

 

I was attempting to return based on this published policy.  Balls were misrepresented as USGA Tournament legal.  No time frame indicated in the policy.  The reality is they do not honor this policy.

I get what you are saying but It's probably not too far of a stretch legally for them to say that the "can be played in any tournament" stuff doesn't necessarily apply to tournaments that have special conditions of competition and just means tournaments that require you obey the standard rules of golf.

[cardigan]

1 hour ago, jls667 said:

 

I mean, it does seem like they're going to correct it and fairly soon based on other posts. If you really liked them, then it doesn't seem like it makes sense to ditch them immediately. 

 

I also emailed them this morning about this issue. Not because I have a highly competitive round/USGA round soon but because I finally gave them a try for the past few weeks and honestly love them, and if hate to go all in on them if they won't conform for the long haul. For me, as long as the issue is rectified in the near future then I don't really care. It's obviously a ball that conformed before and will confirm again. It's just not on the list today. Its a much different scenario if all colors/versions of the Pro Plus were removed because of something that came up regarding its performance rather than what appears to be a paperwork issue.

 

That said, I do hope this is just a blip. I really like the ball but would hate to see the company start to run into issues due to laziness or repeated "clerical errors."

 

If they email me back with some new or interesting info on this, I'll post it here.

It's doubtful that anything changed with the balls that makes them nonconforming in terms of rules of golf (special condition of competition aside).  I wouldn't be any more concerned with using them or someone I'm playing with using them than me/someone using some original Kirkland 4 piece balls that haven't been on the list for years if it's not some kind of professional or USGA/R&A tournament.  It's still quite disappointing that they let their current production premium balls lapse from the list and definitely is a valid cause of concern for those who play in big tournaments.

[jls667]

Following up, Vice replied and said this:

 

"Thanks for reaching out.

Due to clerical error between the USGA and ourselves the balls were not registered correctly for this quarter. The balls will be back on the list in September when the USGA does there quarterly update.

 

We apologize for any inconvenience."

 

So yeah...I personally won't shy from using them but I also don't have any tourney that'll concern themselves about this issue in between now and then.

 

That said I hope it's simply an isolated mistake. Mistakes happen. I make mistakes like this all the time, just no one puts me on blast on the interwebs. In reality they're a fraction of the workforce and oversight that major brands have. Titleist can't afford such a thing to happen so they probably have multiple mechanisms in place to check and double check. Imagine if they forgot to send in the ProV1 for approval? Now that would be a story.

 

Vice is a food truck to Titleist's McDonald's. It reasonable to think one bad employee messed up but they didn't have the oversight to catch it. It's a learning experience for them and I assume they'll make sure it doesn't happen again. But if it does repeat then I'll start to worry. I like the product but I'm not going to mess around with it if they're not taking it seriously.

[cardigan]

2 hours ago, jls667 said:

Following up, Vice replied and said this:

 

"Thanks for reaching out.

Due to clerical error between the USGA and ourselves the balls were not registered correctly for this quarter. The balls will be back on the list in September when the USGA does there quarterly update.

 

We apologize for any inconvenience."

 

So yeah...I personally won't shy from using them but I also don't have any tourney that'll concern themselves about this issue in between now and then.

 

That said I hope it's simply an isolated mistake. Mistakes happen. I make mistakes like this all the time, just no one puts me on blast on the interwebs. In reality they're a fraction of the workforce and oversight that major brands have. Titleist can't afford such a thing to happen so they probably have multiple mechanisms in place to check and double check. Imagine if they forgot to send in the ProV1 for approval? Now that would be a story.

 

Vice is a food truck to Titleist's McDonald's. It reasonable to think one bad employee messed up but they didn't have the oversight to catch it. It's a learning experience for them and I assume they'll make sure it doesn't happen again. But if it does repeat then I'll start to worry. I like the product but I'm not going to mess around with it if they're not taking it seriously.

"Quarterly update" appears to be disingenuous.  See the "Submission Schedule" section of the submission guidelines.  Also, since the USGA has been doing this forever, I have doubts that the "clerical error between the USGA and ourselves the balls" is entirely truthful.  Of course I have no idea what exactly happened but it's hard for me to imagine that Vice is not entirely at fault, especially since I often look at the conforming list and know for a fact that many of their balls (mostly non-white) are often not on the list.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Equipment/2023 USGA Golf Ball Submission Guidelines.pdf

[tatertot]

Totally off subject ... This old man might have to give up the game if he had to play with lime green golf balls. I might go through a sleeve a side.

 

Green balls + green grass = no green in my wallet.

[cardigan]

5 minutes ago, tatertot said:

Totally off subject ... This old man might have to give up the game if he had to play with lime green golf balls. I might go through a sleeve a side.

 

Green balls + green grass = no green in my wallet.

I play the lime green Vice Pro Plus often.  They are very visible in the fairway to me and others but I do know folks who have trouble with them (as well as yellow balls).  When the Maxfli Tour balls were available in matte green, they were even more visible.  Almost to the point of glowing.

[tatertot]

7 minutes ago, cardigan said:

I play the lime green Vice Pro Plus often.  They are very visible in the fairway to me and others but I do know folks who have trouble with them (as well as yellow balls).  When the Maxfli Tour balls were available in matte green, they were even more visible.  Almost to the point of glowing.

I played the yellow Bridgestones for a season ... I could follow them great in the sky, but I had a hard time with those in the rough. 

 

I play the Maxfli Tour now, and have thought about trying the yellow, but haven't.

[jls667]

8 hours ago, cardigan said:

"Quarterly update" appears to be disingenuous.  See the "Submission Schedule" section of the submission guidelines.  Also, since the USGA has been doing this forever, I have doubts that the "clerical error between the USGA and ourselves the balls" is entirely truthful.  Of course I have no idea what exactly happened but it's hard for me to imagine that Vice is not entirely at fault, especially since I often look at the conforming list and know for a fact that many of their balls (mostly non-white) are often not on the list.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Equipment/2023 USGA Golf Ball Submission Guidelines.pdf

 

 

Oh I agree. It's definitely all on Vice here. However I never looked at that list before nor had I looked at the timeline of submission dates. They have monthly reviews (not quarterly...sorry Vice) which tells me this must happen more often than we know of. There's not that many new balls flooding to the market that they have to review so frequently. Certainly Titleist can't afford the ProV1 or Taylormade afford the TP5 to lapse on their approval so that won't happen. But I'd bet that there's plenty of balls that fall off the list for one reason or another then resurface shortly after without the public ever knowing. Only difference is the the Pro Plus is a ball worthy of playing in competition, which is why people check and the issue was caught. Vice was rightfully exposed and, according to them, will have it rectified shortly. No one is checking in to make sure their beloved Top Flite XL Distance is cleared for the USGA Mid-Am or checking to make sure their Uther Icon with the Ice Cream bar is on the list only to learn they'll have to play the Donut instead in their tourney next week.

 

But based on what they said and the timeline you provided, it looks like we'll know on Sep. 6th whether it was fixed or not.

[Brooky03]

nm

Edited August 17, 2023 by Brooky03

[fjk]

On 8/15/2023 at 7:24 PM, tatertot said:

Totally off subject ... This old man might have to give up the game if he had to play with lime green golf balls. I might go through a sleeve a side.

 

Green balls + green grass = no green in my wallet.

They’re far more visible than white - probably because they are such an unnatural shade of green - when combing through our long (green) fescue. 
 

on the fairways they’re hyper visible too. 

Edited August 20, 2023 by fjk

[philly2kuk]

On Instagram they claim their balls conform.

[BraddyBlades]

On 8/24/2023 at 11:27 AM, philly2kuk said:

On Instagram they claim their balls conform.

It’s not on the conforming list though so that matters more than some social media pr.

[cardigan]

On 8/16/2023 at 7:37 AM, jls667 said:

 

 

 

But based on what they said and the timeline you provided, it looks like we'll know on Sep. 6th whether it was fixed or not.

The September list has been published (the list is typically released on the Monday before the effective date).  It still doesn't have the Pro Plus balls that were dropped.

[jls667]

46 minutes ago, cardigan said:

The September list has been published (the list is typically released on the Monday before the effective date).  It still doesn't have the Pro Plus balls that were dropped.

 

Crazy. What a shame.

 

I actually have a tournament next week and was waiting on this list to see if I'll play the Pro Plus but, while not a major USGA tournament, it's just not worth it. Oh well....

[cardigan]

41 minutes ago, jls667 said:

 

Crazy. What a shame.

 

I actually have a tournament next week and was waiting on this list to see if I'll play the Pro Plus but, while not a major USGA tournament, it's just not worth it. Oh well....

Unless the tournament has a condition of competition that requires that the balls be on the conforming list, the onus would be on the officials to determine that there is something non-conforming about the balls in order for it to be an issue (size, weight, etc.) but I definitely understand your hesitation.  No use in risking having to deal with a rules official who doesn't know the rules.

[jls667]

On 9/5/2023 at 1:31 PM, cardigan said:

Unless the tournament has a condition of competition that requires that the balls be on the conforming list, the onus would be on the officials to determine that there is something non-conforming about the balls in order for it to be an issue (size, weight, etc.) but I definitely understand your hesitation.  No use in risking having to deal with a rules official who doesn't know the rules.

 

Oddly I'm actually less worried about a rules official than being paired with another gearhead like myself who may happen to notice it. Either way, I can pretty much alternate between Pro Plus and ProV1 so I'll just toss some ProV1's in play for the tournament and dabble with Pro Plus on my own time.

[cardigan]

1 hour ago, jls667 said:

 

Oddly I'm actually less worried about a rules official than being paired with another gearhead like myself who may happen to notice it. Either way, I can pretty much alternate between Pro Plus and ProV1 so I'll just toss some ProV1's in play for the tournament and dabble with Pro Plus on my own time.

A gearhead can complain about a competitor's ball not being on the conforming list but if it's not a condition of competition for the tournament that all balls need to be on the conforming list, it's up to a rules official (if they know the actual rules) to say whether or not they have a valid reason to believe that your ball does conform to the rules of golf.

Edited September 7, 2023 by cardigan

[Yuck]

I did have to bail on Vice for a USGA event.  I do not see Lime Pro Plus on the Sept. 6th list.  (Several balls were put back on that list, including white Pro Plus, but no Lime).

 

I have written Vice customer service again, asking them to correct their published mis-information on the legality of their golf balls for USGA competitions.   They did not bother to correct this when they were made aware in July.  Not a ball company for someone who plays USGA competitions.  Too bad, I like the ball.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Yuck

[cardigan]

14 hours ago, Yuck said:

I did have to bail on Vice for a USGA event.  I do not see Lime Pro Plus on the Sept. 6th list.  (Several balls were put back on that list, including white Pro Plus, but no Lime).

 

I have written Vice customer service again, asking them to correct their published mis-information on the legality of their golf balls for USGA competitions.   They did not bother to correct this when they were made aware in July.  Not a ball company for someone who plays USGA competitions.  Too bad, I like the ball.

I don't think any were put back on the list.  The white Pro Plus is still missing.

[Shilgy]

On 9/6/2023 at 6:33 PM, cardigan said:

A gearhead can complain about a competitor's ball not being on the conforming list but if it's not a condition of competition for the tournament that all balls need to be on the conforming list, it's up to a rules official (if they know the actual rules) to say whether or not they have a valid reason to believe that your ball does conform to the rules of golf.

For any “decent” competition isn’t it a given?  Can a player just show up with an ERC driver from Callaway and a MG Senior ball and hack away?  Then claim there is nothing that states all equipment must be conforming?

[cardigan]

10 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

For any “decent” competition isn’t it a given?  Can a player just show up with an ERC driver from Callaway and a MG Senior ball and hack away?  Then claim there is nothing that states all equipment must be conforming?

I'm not saying that at all.  Balls can conform to USGA rules but not be on the list.  If Titleist decided that they were going to stop submitting their prior generation models for the conforming list each year and only kept their current generation balls on the list that would not mean that prior generation balls would suddenly become "non-conforming" as far as USGA rules go (size, weight, etc.).  They wouldn't be able to be played in USGA and professional tournaments but they would still be fine for your local club championship unless they had a specific condition of competition stating that the balls had to be on the conforming list.

 

As a side note, I would like to see some 3rd party testing of MG Senior ball how valid their claims are about extra speed/distance.  I have my doubts.

[North Butte]

43 minutes ago, cardigan said:

As a side note, I would like to see some 3rd party testing of MG Senior ball how valid their claims are about extra speed/distance.  I have my doubts.

There's an older (much older, like mid-80's) golfer I play with occasionally who is extremely distance challenged. I'd say his driver carries 90-some yards and if he's lucky rolls another 30-50 because it never gets more than 10 feet off the ground. His max distance for reaching a green from the fairway is 120 if the course is firm and fast, about 100 otherwise. So even from the shortest tees the typical 250-280 yard Par 4 is not reachable in regulation. 

 

He tried the MG Senior a few years back and thought it maybe rolled out a couple extra yards. Maybe. Not even sure about that. But he's a demon chipper and putter and the MG Senior kind of messed up his touch on those 40-yard bump and runs that he typically hits for his 3rd shot on Par 4's. He abandoned them after a couple months. 

 

He concluded they were more hype than substance but honestly, with his off-the-charts low clubhead speed I don't think you could make a ball that will gain him more than single-digit yards with each club and that's just going to be roll. 

[Yuck]

On 9/6/2023 at 9:33 PM, cardigan said:

A gearhead can complain about a competitor's ball not being on the conforming list but if it's not a condition of competition for the tournament that all balls need to be on the conforming list, it's up to a rules official (if they know the actual rules) to say whether or not they have a valid reason to believe that your ball does conform to the rules of golf.

The situation regarding conforming ball list does not just apply to USGA / PGA tour events.  Where I have played in State competitions in recent years, (CA & FL), you are required to use legal balls and equipment per the USGA Conforming list.  Penalty for making a stroke with an illegal ball is DQ.

[cardigan]

2 hours ago, Yuck said:

The situation regarding conforming ball list does not just apply to USGA / PGA tour events.  Where I have played in State competitions in recent years, (CA & FL), you are required to use legal balls and equipment per the USGA Conforming list.  Penalty for making a stroke with an illegal ball is DQ.

As long as they state in their rules that they must be "on the conforming list", that's fine.  If they just say "must conform to USGA rules", that's a different matter.

[North Butte]

But why would someone interested in serious tournament play want to get used to playing a ball they can only use when there's a specific wording in the conditions of competition? So they'd play 100+ rounds a year with a ball not on the list then, what, practice up with a conforming ball for a couple rounds right before that one tournament that specifies "on the conforming list"? 

 

If you're going to be a serious competitor, there are literally hundreds of ball models out there suitable for serious competition. 

 

And it isn't like that one specific, white-label, Asian contract factory ball is so great it's worth having to Rules-lawyer each tournament before you play, to make sure you can use it. That's just nuts. Play a ball on the darned list, all potential problems avoided.