Don't wanna be a hooker anymore

[KMeloney]

17 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Strong grip is fine. Weak grip can be fine. Trail hand too far under the club, not fine. Trail hand too far on top of the club, not fine.
 

Some people do the double whammy by trail hand too far under, then close the face at address effectively making the grip even stronger. A grip that’s too strong or too weak can be death. 

 

Completely agree. Enough of anything to necessitate the word "too" in front of it is bad by definition. We just don't really know whether it's the OP's grip or a host of other things that's at the root of his hooks. In the meantime, I just wanted to point out that some great golf can be played with what might appear to many to be too strong a grip.

[tthomasgolfer605]

[MPStrat]

3 hours ago, KMeloney said:

I just wanted to point out that some great golf can be played with what might appear to many to be too strong a grip.

Compared to lead hand grips, there isn’t anywhere near the spectrum of trail hand grips on tour. You can always find some outliers. But I agree with Paddy on this..

 

 

 

 

 

[KMeloney]

The audio loaded for me, but no video...

[MPStrat]

1 hour ago, KMeloney said:

The audio loaded for me, but no video...

[KMeloney]

3 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

With the thumb on the right side of the grip? Wow. Yeah, that's absurd, and something I don't think I've seen.

[MPStrat]

6 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

With the thumb on the right side of the grip? Wow. Yeah, that's absurd, and something I don't think I've seen.

I’ve seen this right hand grip countless times in amateur golf. Go to any driving range in the world and you will see this grip a few times a day. 

Edited July 25, 2023 by MPStrat

[MPStrat]

.

 

This is a junior golfer in my area. He’s just now working with someone to get his ballflight under control. He has a great swing overall but can’t keep driver on the planet. This grip is bad, and I’ve seen worse 

[Lefty_3Jack]

18 hours ago, MPStrat said:

Compared to lead hand grips, there isn’t anywhere near the spectrum of trail hand grips on tour. You can always find some outliers. But I agree with Paddy on this..

 

 

RPReplay_Final1690235007.mov 49.54 MB · 4 downloads  

 

 

 

Are you saying that most guys with strong lead hand grips have neutral or weak trail hands?  Following the thread and I'm not clear on what you're saying, but it sounds like you're advocating against a turned under-strong trail hand in favor of a neutral or weak trail hand. 

[MPStrat]

36 minutes ago, Lefty_3Jack said:

Are you saying that most guys with strong lead hand grips have neutral or weak trail hands?  Following the thread and I'm not clear on what you're saying, but it sounds like you're advocating against a turned under-strong trail hand in favor of a neutral or weak trail hand. 

 

The tough part is that there are no real concrete definitions for strong, weak or neutral grips. I’m not in favor of a trail hand that is too much on top or too

much underneath the grip. We don’t see a lot of craziness with the trail hand grip on tour. Save for a few exceptions, most of the best players in the world are in the realm of what some would call “neutral” to “slightly strong” or “slightly weak” with their trail hand. 

[contramoto]

OP here...thanks for all the notes.

 

Looking more closely, my grip (both hands) most closely resembles Paul Azinger. My lead hand is logo-out. My right hand isn't as strong as what is shown in the video or the photo of the junior golfer above. Also similar to Dustin J.

 

So...in looking for a "swing model" perhaps I should be looking for someone that can explain Azinger. Strong left hand and plays a fade. Blurry photo below.

 

What are the key fundamentals to making that grip work for someone like Azinger?

 

Also -- I'm working on getting video of me.

 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by contramoto

[contramoto]

Add...one of the keys seems to be having the right elbow get out in front of the right hip through impact, and keeping it moving around. I see this in both Dustin J and Paul A swing videos.

 

Thoughts...?

[Pepperturbo]

On 7/22/2023 at 4:43 PM, contramoto said:

I've been playing about a dozen years. I've always had a strong grip, but now it's really ruining my game. I've spent the hours finding the bottom of my swing, on a good path and plane. (Sort of a stack and tilt type discipline).  Can now make really consistent good contact. A little thin now and then, but GI irons make that not a big deal. 
 

What is a big deal is that, if I just take a relaxed natural swing, I can hook a 135y 9i 30 yards. All of my focus and energy goes into holding the face open. So, half my shots are a push-fade and half are a big hook. I can play a round and make good clean contact with every swing and miss every target left and right, and by a lot. I'm money with a sand wedge and I putt above average. But driving and ball striking...it's a mess. I'm full of tension trying to manipulate the club face. I got down to an 11 at one point, and now I can't even break 90. It's all going backwards.

 

I've spent many hours and thousands of balls trying to hit with a neutral grip. I take the club back, and by the time I bring it back down to the ball, my right hand has managed to rotate under the grip. It's like my hand has a mind of its own and wants that blade pointing forward. Like swinging a hatchet. If I do manage to keep my hands neutral, I can't even hit the ball. It all just feels so alien.

 

Is there any method or style or approach that can possibly work with an overly strong grip? Stance, position...whatever. I'm willing to try anything.

 

Thanks in advance for any wisdom.

 

 

Sounds as though you've given in to the power of body parts, and lack of self-control.  I play with a neutral grip, and do fine, and most tour pros use neutral grips.  However, there are some players with strong grips, so it's not so much grip as it is faulty swing mechanics and your thinking in the matter.

 

My scratch buddy has a strong grip and used to lose a lot to hooks.  He eventually solved that by going to larger grips and many wraps which slowed his hands from turning over fast. 

 

You, willing to try anything, is a recipe for a crap shoot of problems, not improvement.  IMO You need lessons, vs. bandaids for faulty mechanics. 

[contramoto]

8 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

  IMO You need lessons, vs. bandaids for faulty mechanics. 

 

True, but I've never gone to an instructor that didn't want to first have me swing with a neutral grip. After a few lessons hitting zero balls with decent flight, I give up.

[Pepperturbo]

6 minutes ago, contramoto said:

 

True, but I've never gone to an instructor that didn't want to first have me swing with a neutral grip. After a few lessons hitting zero balls with decent flight, I give up.

You want help, but only help you approve of.  You might find an instructor who sees what you can't, knows the solutions and if you follow his advice, and practice regime, you may get out of this hole.  Then again, you can remain in the hole and in your own way of progress by looking for an instructor who does what you say.  Good luck with that.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Pepperturbo

[contramoto]

11 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

You want help, but only help you approve of.  You might find an instructor who sees what you can't, knows the solutions and if you follow his advice, and practice regime, you may get out of this hole.  Then again, you can remain in the hole and in your own way of progress by looking for an instructor who does what you say.  Good luck with that.

 

Somebody should have told Dustin J and Paul A to quit golf a long time ago, because obviously they didn't switch to a neutral grip. And if you can't do what the book says, you need to quit the sport.

 

 

[MPStrat]

41 minutes ago, contramoto said:

OP here...thanks for all the notes.

 

Looking more closely, my grip (both hands) most closely resembles Paul Azinger. My lead hand is logo-out. My right hand isn't as strong as what is shown in the video or the photo of the junior golfer above. Also similar to Dustin J.

 

So...in looking for a "swing model" perhaps I should be looking for someone that can explain Azinger. Strong left hand and plays a fade. Blurry photo below.

 

What are the key fundamentals to making that grip work for someone like Azinger?

 

Also -- I'm working on getting video of me.

 

 

 

 

Yep the Azinger grip can work. It’s probably as far as one would want to go in terms of grip strength. Definitely an outlier, but he made it work by having a lot of cup in the left wrist and a flatter trail wrist than most on tour. He was then able to rotate like crazy to bring the path left of the face. The unconventional wrist angles are absolutely key with this grip. 
 

 

I believe this grip is also one of the reasons he was unbelievable around the greens. He didn’t use as much trail wrist angle in his full swing so it was much easier to use the bounce in the short game. 

[MPStrat]

6 minutes ago, contramoto said:

 

Somebody should have told Dustin J and Paul A to quit golf a long time ago, because obviously they didn't switch to a neutral grip. And if you can't do what the book says, you need to quit the sport.

 

 

I don’t think DJ’s grip is all that strong. In the modern day sense it’s not far from neutral. If he had a grip like Azinger, he couldn’t bow his lead wrist like he does and break 90. Azinger is an outlier but it can work. 

[aramirez24]

A lot of up and coming junior players that are starting to get on TV play with very strong grips. They are also able to get into positions most people aren't able to. No one is saying you can't play golf with a strong grip, it's just a matter of being able to match up the rest of the swing. If you can't rotate and get open enough to make it work it never will. Ben Carr/Sam Bennett are some good examples. 

 

https://golf.com/instruction/ben-carr-golf-swing-breakdown/

 

[KMeloney]

39 minutes ago, contramoto said:

Add...one of the keys seems to be having the right elbow get out in front of the right hip through impact, and keeping it moving around. I see this in both Dustin J and Paul A swing videos.

 

Thoughts...?

 

Zach Johnson, Bubba, and David Duval have/had strong grips, too.

 

I think you have to let the face "open" naturally on the backswing (or else you're in danger of shutting down an already-closed face), make a good shift to your lead side, and keep turning through the shot (no body/shoulders stall and flipping through impact). And yes, I think that knowing where your trail elbow is can help keep the face from shutting down. I know that if my trail elbow kicks out on the downswing, that face is shutting down along with it.

[Pepperturbo]

16 minutes ago, contramoto said:

 

Somebody should have told Dustin J and Paul A to quit golf a long time ago, because obviously they didn't switch to a neutral grip. And if you can't do what the book says, you need to quit the sport.

 

 

Poor analogy.  What a professional does or does NOT do, IN NO WAY equates to someone at your level, or for that matter, any amateur.   I am self-taught, started at 40yrs old, reached 2 index in under six yrs while running a national company.  The point is, when I want to learn, I get out of my own way, so I can progress.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Pepperturbo

[Nels55]

Per Mike Adams there are no outliers among successful players grips. 

 

For the trail hand some are under the grip some are side on and some are cover or on top.  There can be any in between setting from from under to cover that may work best for any individual golfer. 

 

The lead hand strength is mostly determined by the individual players hip speed.  Fast hips equal strong grip and slow hips do well with a weaker grip.  Mike has a number of test for determining a golfers best grip.

 

Trying to fit everyone into the same perfect grip is a fool's errand.  

[Pepperturbo]

What's pitiful using what touring pros do as examples for what a high-single digit to high cap does.  You all do NOT have the attributes that the touring pro brought to the game; thus, following in his footsteps is a recipe for ongoing frustration.  But if YOU think emulating Paul Azinger's grip without his physical abilities are in your wheelhouse, have fun. 🙂

[hacker101]

I feel your pain. I play off scratch with a fairly strong grip. Not obscenely strong, but it holds me back. I have worked diligently to keep the trail hand from getting too far underneath. Still very much in to out. If I try to fade anything except a driver in competition, I usually fail. I have to work harder than I should have to to keep everything timed up. If I remember correctly, my face angle needs to be about 1/2 my path in order to return the ball to target. So, when I’m swinging +10* path, I need to be +5 face. Hard to keep that consistent. A more neutral path would narrow the opportunities to correct. If you figure that out, let me know what you did. 

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, hacker101 said:

I feel your pain. I play off scratch with a fairly strong grip. Not obscenely strong, but it holds me back. I have worked diligently to keep the trail hand from getting too far underneath. Still very much in to out. If I try to fade anything except a driver in competition, I usually fail. I have to work harder than I should have to to keep everything timed up. If I remember correctly, my face angle needs to be about 1/2 my path in order to return the ball to target. So, when I’m swinging +10* path, I need to be +5 face. Hard to keep that consistent. A more neutral path would narrow the opportunities to correct. If you figure that out, let me know what you did. 

From what I understand from watching Mike Adams / Terry Rowles stuff if you are an under grip golfer with your trail hand then moving the hand weaker where you think it should be will likely cause you to hook it more.

Edit:

Here is a lesson that you might find interesting:

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by Nels55

[phizzy30]

7 hours ago, hacker101 said:

I feel your pain. I play off scratch with a fairly strong grip. Not obscenely strong, but it holds me back. I have worked diligently to keep the trail hand from getting too far underneath. Still very much in to out. If I try to fade anything except a driver in competition, I usually fail. I have to work harder than I should have to to keep everything timed up. If I remember correctly, my face angle needs to be about 1/2 my path in order to return the ball to target. So, when I’m swinging +10* path, I need to be +5 face. Hard to keep that consistent. A more neutral path would narrow the opportunities to correct. If you figure that out, let me know what you did. 

I used to be like you and have an extreme in to out swing path with a strong grip.  Face was all over the place and I'd spray balls everywhere but my main miss was the the big duck hook.  Almost drove me to the point of quitting golf altogether.  I've worked really hard to change my swing over the years and now am 2-4* in to out with a weak grip and my misses have been much more manageable.  How are you a scratch with such an extreme path? 

[Nels55]

4 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

I used to be like you and have an extreme in to out swing path with a strong grip.  Face was all over the place and I'd spray balls everywhere but my main miss was the the big duck hook.  Almost drove me to the point of quitting golf altogether.  I've worked really hard to change my swing over the years and now am 2-4* in to out with a weak grip and my misses have been much more manageable.  How are you a scratch with such an extreme path? 

Grip strength or whatever you want to call it is really interesting.  I battled the hook with a really strong lead hand for a good number of years and I could play well every now and then but most of the time I was hitting a lot of big left turns and block right shots.  I did Mike Adams hip speed test and realized that I have slow hips and changed my lead hand grip weaker and path and face angle have became more manageable.  LOL this change did not get me to scratch though.  Anyway the point I am slowly getting to is that my trail hand seems to do best 'side on' which I think is still considered a bit strong.  If I set it weaker which is more on top I will hook it more and if I go the other way I will hook it like crazy.  

 

Anyway, I am curious if you simply put your trail hand on where you thought it should be when you changed your lead hand grip or if you experimented some with the trail hand position?  Or maybe you just put it where it was comfortable?