Social Media Golf Is Wrong - Brian Manzella/BBG

[DShepley]

Maybe I'm wrong, but the hand path of most pro golfers is much better than most amateur golfers.  The more your hands move out towards the ball in the downswing, the more you will have to throw away wrist angles, twist the shaft and stand it up to get the club face on the ball.  It's hard to have forward shaft lean when you are forced to throw away wrist angles.  So....yes, the pros have more shaft lean than most club champions, however, the pros also have 'elite' hand paths and the club champions in most cases do not, rather their swings work with some compensations and are repeatable enough to play around scratch.

[Nels55]

3 hours ago, Jeselnik said:

https://www.golfwrx.com/301644/why-you-dont-need-more-lag-or-more-forward-shaft-lean/

Brian just entered the way back machine.  Anyways, are there really any doubts that tour winners have better mechanics?  Don’t make excuses, it’s all know how.  Since this thread is already a disaster have a look at this.

 

JNIK

He has 90 degrees of lead arm to clubshaft or more.  Elk is fooled by parallax here.

[Nels55]

Duplicate.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Nels55

[MK7Golf21]

good place to look is lpga tour and their impact/shaft lean. They would have pro level mechanics and slower swing speed.

[PJ1120]

On 7/29/2023 at 4:04 PM, BALLYBUNION said:

Manzella claims the average impact condition is based on an average using EVERY club champion in America.  Every club champion?  Seems a little boastful on the surface.   I might be able to buy a Brinks truck at Gold & Silver Pawn Shop. 

Manzella "boastful"? You have to be kidding.

[Rdailey9108]

AMG just posted a video on some of these things 

 

 

 

[tthomasgolfer605]

On 7/31/2023 at 12:08 PM, slytown said:

 

A lot of guests on his channel are professionals with degrees. Are you saying his guests are dumber than dudes on TikTok that teach lag and shaft lean all the time? I'm not saying all social media teachers are bad, but to imply the average social media teacher is better than someone who works with amateurs day in and day out is ridiculous.

You assumed all that from what I said? Mental health facilities are going great things these days. 

[Jeselnik]

8 hours ago, Nels55 said:

He has 90 degrees of lead arm to clubshaft or more.  Elk is fooled by parallax here.

And if I told you there was zero chance Elk is fooled by something so obvious?

 

JNIK

[phizzy30]

11 hours ago, Jeselnik said:

https://www.golfwrx.com/301644/why-you-dont-need-more-lag-or-more-forward-shaft-lean/

Brian just entered the way back machine.  Anyways, are there really any doubts that tour winners have better mechanics?  Don’t make excuses, it’s all know how.  Since this thread is already a disaster have a look at this.

 

JNIK

Harman isn't really a good example of a golfer that has a ton of lag in his swing.  Sergio is king of lag, IMO.

[GungHoGolf]

1 hour ago, Jeselnik said:

And if I told you there was zero chance Elk is fooled by something so obvious?

 

JNIK

Why would he say Harman has a 25-30 degree angle between lead arm and clubshaft there, if he's not being fooled by the 2D perspective artifact? Guarantee it's no less than 85-90 degrees if viewed from the proper angle.

[MPStrat]

 

[Zitlow]

Sergio started at age 3 he wasn't swinging the club, the club was swinging him. 

[Rdailey9108]

4 hours ago, MPStrat said:

 

Brian needs atleast an hour to explain some of his concepts better. He was all over the place. I understood most because I've studied the golf swing but for the average person it would tough to follow. I'd love to see a follow up about the grip. I always grip it in front of me with the club square but I push the club forward to mimic impact. This always makes my grip on the stronger side. 

[CasualLie]

Usually Brandon hits some balls during the video trying to incorporate some of what's being taught.  I thought for sure he would hit a few with the "new" left hand grip, but either he's hurt or he can't be bothered.  Full disclosure, I did check my left grip and the fingers were 90.  Never thought about it before; I did learn to grip with left first by starting with arm hanging on the side naturally, so I guess I'll be in the Manzella approved 5% at his range.

 

I remember a long time ago going through a phase of gripping right first as I soled the club and step in with right foot first to set a target then square up.  That was a shite couple of months of scores.  

[MPStrat]

This last video might have been the best one yet.

 

Manzella just explained what GG has also been saying for years. Tour players are not manually laying down the shaft in transition. He says according to 3D, the look of shallowing happens when the lead arm rotates internally because the rotation of the body combined with lead arm adduction blows it back. Blows it back. 
 

It has always been frustrating to see teachers,  some who are very steep in their own swings bash lead arm adduction as an intentional move. Mostly because that is the one of the main concepts that got me to shallow the shaft without actually trying to manually lay it down with the hands. 
 

IMO there isn’t enough time in the downswing to intentionally rotate the arms one way to lay down the shaft in transition and then rotate back to where they should be at impact with any repeatability. As Manzella demonstrates I also feel like I am supinating the lead forearm  and wrist almost immediately in the change of direction. I am certainly not trying to lay down the shaft. 
 

 

[PracticeSwinger]

23 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

This last video might have been the best one yet.

 

Manzella just explained what GG has also been saying for years. Tour players are not manually laying down the shaft in transition. He says according to 3D, the look of shallowing happens when the lead arm rotates internally because the rotation of the body combined with lead arm adduction blows it back. Blows it back. 
 

It has always been frustrating to see teachers,  some who are very steep in their own swings bash lead arm adduction as an intentional move. Mostly because that is the one of the main concepts that got me to shallow the shaft without actually trying to manually lay it down with the hands. 
 

IMO there isn’t enough time in the downswing to intentionally rotate the arms one way to lay down the shaft in transition and then rotate back to where they should be at impact with any repeatability. As Manzella demonstrates I also feel like I am supinating the lead forearm  and wrist almost immediately in the change of direction. I am certainly not trying to lay down the shaft. 
 

 

Adding to the last part, from the top, in isolation one would think that supinating the lead forearm is a steepening move (and thus pronation in transition is required to shallow) - but would you say that the feeling of lead arm supination (and trail arm also) in transition is what results in good wrists movement? Lead wrist flexing and going towards ulnar, trail wrist extending and going towards ulnar also (because of the COM of the club, momentum - forces those wrists move) and that in itself shallows the shaft, sets up a good body driven pivot 

[MPStrat]

4 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

would you say that the feeling of lead arm supination (and trail arm also) in transition is what results in good wrists movement? 

It’s a fair question, but I don’t really think of it in those terms. 

 

I would say the feeling of lead *forearm* supination and trail “forearm” pronation as one move together as part of the release,  for me, happen almost immediately after the body has transitioned. For me, the transition of the body begins in the backswing. It most definitely happens before any downswing move with the arms. 
 

The sensation is that it’s a tug of war between the shaft being blown way behind the body and the lead arm supination keeping things reasonable and helping line up the club for contact.

 

Some people are so tense with the hands trying to rip at it, that they’ve never felt the sensation of this blowback Manzella talks about. Most of these golfers are chronically vertical with the shaft. Some are very good players. But IMO if you want to be shallower you have to learn to feel the blowback and you have to learn the lead arm supination as separate pieces and then it becomes more intuitive to combine them.

 

It sounds like a lot but these days my golf swing is:

shift/trigger, body transition, club releases 

 

I could break these down into a bit of detail and how I learned them like I did above, but essentially it’s as simple as that once understood. 

 

 

[rondo01]

29 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Some people are so tense with the hands trying to rip at it, that they’ve never felt the sensation of this blowback Manzella talks about. 

 

key. 

[Chunkitgood]

Why at this point is it necessary for anybody to be confused about the difference between the planes in which the club can rotate and the angles it is in momentarily to the ground from different perspectives?  Why do they even care when the important thing is the confusion or ignorance they have  about the planes in which the body rotates?  
 

Teaching the wrong things with great precision, golf instruction since at least the 1950’s.

[Nels55]

If I understood correctly I think that Manzella is teaching one correct grip for everybody and pros who succeed with different grips are outliers?  If so then he is in direct opposition to Mike Adams who teaches that there are no outliers and the 'correct' grip varies a great deal from golfer to golfer.  

[Brian Manzella]

What I said about the grip is that (1) most teachers don't do a good job of getting their students to actually DO a good grip and therefore think it is less important than it is and (2) Tour Players have the last three fingers of their lead hand 90°ish to the grip.

 

 

 

[Chunkitgood]

If you can’t use an iron properly with low swing speed, how to pros hit proper partial shots?

 

Just curious.

[CasualLie]

1 hour ago, Chunkitgood said:

If you can’t use an iron properly with low swing speed, how to pros hit proper partial shots?

 

Just curious.

 

They take the club back a partial amount, not intentions swing at a lower speed (not counting touchy wedge shots around the green).  A 3/4 swing doesn't mean swing at 3/4 speed.  It means take it back 3/4 and swing through at normal speed.  You obviously won't produce the same swing speed at impact with the shortened swing, but it won't be slow.

 

But of course it varies.  "Take a little something off" a 7i can have different intents for different players.  Still, 

[PracticeSwinger]

Trying to figure out if these apply to 'social media' / 'Instagram swings' talked about in the videos (images from videos posted here in another thread)

[MPStrat]

5 hours ago, Brian Manzella said:

What I said about the grip is that (1) most teachers don't do a good job of getting their students to actually DO a good grip and therefore think it is less important than it is

Could not agree more.

[iacas]

7 hours ago, Brian Manzella said:

What I said about the grip is that (1) most teachers don't do a good job of getting their students to actually DO a good grip and therefore think it is less important than it is and (2) Tour Players have the last three fingers of their lead hand 90°ish to the grip.

 

Yep.

Edited August 3, 2023 by iacas

[ferrispgm]

The social media instructor craze of extreme right bend and going external is pretty much all based off the early GG hype and now everybody is copying it....it's so detrimental for a vast majority of players.  

 

I've never really followed much of Brian Manzella's stuff before but I actually liked his video with BD......On a side and funny note.....BD was promoting a new swing tool recently to help him stop flipping it.  You have now had Monte, Manzella, and I'm sure another coach or two explain why people flip and here he is still going back to arbitrarily lagging it...Either he really won't learn or TGM has got a massive hold on him and he won't let go. 

[Nels55]

2 hours ago, ferrispgm said:

The social media instructor craze of extreme right bend and going external is pretty much all based off the early GG hype and now everybody is copying it....it's so detrimental for a vast majority of players.  

 

I've never really followed much of Brian Manzella's stuff before but I actually liked his video with BD......On a side and funny note.....BD was promoting a new swing tool recently to help him stop flipping it.  You have now had Monte, Manzella, and I'm sure another coach or two explain why people flip and here he is still going back to arbitrarily lagging it...Either he really won't learn or TGM has got a massive hold on him and he won't let go. 

Or possibly Brendon is getting paid to promote the new swing tool...

[mudge]

2 hours ago, ferrispgm said:

The social media instructor craze of extreme right bend and going external is pretty much all based off the early GG hype and now everybody is copying it....it's so detrimental for a vast majority of players.  

 

I've never really followed much of Brian Manzella's stuff before but I actually liked his video with BD......On a side and funny note.....BD was promoting a new swing tool recently to help him stop flipping it.  You have now had Monte, Manzella, and I'm sure another coach or two explain why people flip and here he is still going back to arbitrarily lagging it...Either he really won't learn or TGM has got a massive hold on him and he won't let go. 

 

Brendan will care about having the lag look and big shaft lean at impact until the day he stops playing golf. I recall him saying that is why is he started the channel in the first place, starting out with TGM

[Rdailey9108]

2 hours ago, mudge said:

 

Brendan will care about having the lag look and big shaft lean at impact until the day he stops playing golf. I recall him saying that is why is he started the channel in the first place, starting out with TGM

I mean I don't know how much he has improved technically but I bet if let's just say he stuck with Monte  years ago and got constant lessons he would have probably gotten way better than he is. I can't imagine how many swing thoughts and feels he has. However that's the point of the channel.