Better players - misses and the right spots

[MountainKing]

Mishits and bad shots are going to happen, but I would never play or adjust a shot with that in mind.  That's an awful mindset, and it's just inviting those bad shots in.   If I'm a perfect 8 iron yardage with a left pin, I'm going to fire at that pin every single time.  My tendency on a bad swing is a hook, if that creeps in then it creeps in and I'll deal with the short sided shot as it comes, but I would never in my life aim 40 feet to the right because I might make a bad swing.

[Pepperturbo]

41 minutes ago, North Butte said:

And I bet you some smart guy is going to chime in an tell me I wouldn't be a 12hcp if I just aimed at the middle of the green even with a wedge from the fairway. I don't know why I rise to the bait of these silly "always lay up, never aim at the hole, every hacker could break par with a good caddie" threads. 

Those smart guys are not all that smart.  Chiming in with those suggestions suggests baloney; I surely wouldn't listen.  LOL  If you're a 12 handi, that's still good golf, not a hacker.  👍 The person I play a lot of golf with is a 12.

[PracticeSwinger]

As the OP, I just want to put emphasis that I wasn't looking for a mindset that would include mishits and altogether bad shots - that's just madness.

 

I was just trying to figure out if better players, knowing their usual tendendies, are/were better players because they adjust their target in general to avoid short-siding themselves, even to a degree that it would bring a longer combo of putts and/or chips into their pattern rather than having possibly a bad lie, bad stance combo to a pin that's on a downhill having to drop it on the fringe to make sure it doesn't release 20ft by - or if they are/were better players because they don't adjust that target much and are able to deal with those tough upcoming shots that might be

[North Butte]

3 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

As the OP, I just want to put emphasis that I wasn't looking for a mindset that would include mishits and altogether bad shots - that's just madness.

 

I was just trying to figure out if better players, knowing their usual tendendies, are/were better players because they adjust their target in general to avoid short-siding themselves, even to a degree that it would bring a longer combo of putts and/or chips into their pattern rather than having possibly a bad lie, bad stance combo to a pin that's on a downhill having to drop it on the fringe to make sure it doesn't release 20ft by - or if they are/were better players because they don't adjust that target much and are able to deal with those tough upcoming shots that might be

I think if by "better players" you're talking elite or near-elite golfers their lag putting, short game and recovery skills consider a lot of trouble spots you or I might give a wide berth to simply be costing them a birdie chance. If a mediocre-to-decent lie in medium rough on the short side of the green or being in a deep bunker 25 yards from the hole or having a double-breaking 40-foot putt up and over a ridge aren't a serious cause for concern that really reduces the number of situations where they are needing to play defense. 

 

To be good enough to map out a DECADE-like strategic plan for your likely shot results, you've IMO got to be a solid scratch-to-plus handicap ball striker. With some exceptions, I think players who have "course manageable" misses like that also tend to have good recovery skills around the greens and for that matter are probably going to advance the ball when punching out of trees with considerable more success than I do. Put all that together and it's reasonable to try to apply some sort of strategic planning process and have specific scenarios mapped out.

 

Absent that level of ball striking, your basic "don't aim where a mediocre shot costs you a lost ball" type strategy is about what most of us are left with. I think.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

25 minutes ago, North Butte said:

I think if by "better players" you're talking elite or near-elite golfers their lag putting, short game and recovery skills consider a lot of trouble spots you or I might give a wide berth to simply be costing them a birdie chance. If a mediocre-to-decent lie in medium rough on the short side of the green or being in a deep bunker 25 yards from the hole or having a double-breaking 40-foot putt up and over a ridge aren't a serious cause for concern that really reduces the number of situations where they are needing to play defense. 

 

To be good enough to map out a DECADE-like strategic plan for your likely shot results, you've IMO got to be a solid scratch-to-plus handicap ball striker. With some exceptions, I think players who have "course manageable" misses like that also tend to have good recovery skills around the greens and for that matter are probably going to advance the ball when punching out of trees with considerable more success than I do. Put all that together and it's reasonable to try to apply some sort of strategic planning process and have specific scenarios mapped out.

 

Absent that level of ball striking, your basic "don't aim where a mediocre shot costs you a lost ball" type strategy is about what most of us are left with. I think.

 

I will chime in with my perspective here. If I hit the green, unless there are severe shelfs to navigate or the greens are extremely fast, most of the time that's going to be a par and a lot of those very stress free. The spots I am avoiding are penalty areas (obviously) and spots where I am absolutely dead. Another poster mentioned that for your typical setup at most courses there aren't going to be as many of these spots, and I would tend to agree. I'm definitely more aggressive in normal day to day rounds vs. competition. The main thing I also typically avoid is long as a lot of courses fall away past the green and landing long can be a disaster. 

 

I think you can pull elements from it if you aren't as consistent but it's going to be a less specific plan overall. 

[SNIPERBBB]

35 minutes ago, North Butte said:

I think if by "better players" you're talking elite or near-elite golfers their lag putting, short game and recovery skills consider a lot of trouble spots you or I might give a wide berth to simply be costing them a birdie chance. If a mediocre-to-decent lie in medium rough on the short side of the green or being in a deep bunker 25 yards from the hole or having a double-breaking 40-foot putt up and over a ridge aren't a serious cause for concern that really reduces the number of situations where they are needing to play defense. 

 

To be good enough to map out a DECADE-like strategic plan for your likely shot results, you've IMO got to be a solid scratch-to-plus handicap ball striker. With some exceptions, I think players who have "course manageable" misses like that also tend to have good recovery skills around the greens and for that matter are probably going to advance the ball when punching out of trees with considerable more success than I do. Put all that together and it's reasonable to try to apply some sort of strategic planning process and have specific scenarios mapped out.

 

Absent that level of ball striking, your basic "don't aim where a mediocre shot costs you a lost ball" type strategy is about what most of us are left with. I think.

Common misconception that you have to have great ball striking to be scratch.

 

Just has to be consistent/predictable and have decent putting and chipping

[betarhoalphadelta]

4 hours ago, North Butte said:

What about if you aim at the middle of the green, 25 feet left of the hole, then still manage to leave yourself a short-sided terrible lie? 

 

That outcome is 100% in play for every shot I hit. 

 

You're a 13. I'm a 21. There are all SORTS of outcomes in play for every shot we hit. 

 

That doesn't mean that you shouldn't think your way around a course strategically and try to put yourself in good positions and avoid the worst outcomes. 

 

For example, I tend to play a draw, and I have a tendency to turn that draw into a big high sweeping hook. My dispersion can range from straight block (if I don't square the face) to beautiful push draw (my ideal shot) to big high sweeping hook (if I square the face instead of have it SLIGHTLY open for the push draw) to a snap hook (if I close the face). Big range of outcomes. 

 

I have a hole on my usual course which is about a 168y uphill par 3, which typically plays 10y long due to the slope. Left of the green is a bunker. Left of that is dead. MASSIVE downslope with evergreen trees that if you get down there you're praying for double at that point. 

 

I *cannot* aim far enough right on that hole to take the left miss out of play. Because if I do, and hit one straight or a slight block, I'm in the woods or possibly OB. But I *can* aim far enough right to take the left miss out as long as I don't hit the worst of my dispersion. I'll aim right edge, maybe even just off the right edge. A straight shot or slight block is playable. My ideal shot will likely be on the green. Overcooking my draw slightly will put me in the bunker or at least left of the green before going down the slope and being dead. Only my WORST left miss is putting me in blow up hole territory. That's not to say it never happens--I was there last round actually. But it happens a lot less often than if I aim center of the green. 

 

As a 13 (or me as a 21), we can't take anything completely out of play. But sometimes you just have to play the odds to try to make the worst outcomes less likely. 

[North Butte]

26 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Common misconception that you have to have great ball striking to be scratch.

 

Just has to be consistent/predictable and have decent putting and chipping

I do think you have to have great or at least very, very good ball striking to benefit from going through the DECADE planning process.

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, MountainKing said:

Mishits and bad shots are going to happen, but I would never play or adjust a shot with that in mind.  That's an awful mindset, and it's just inviting those bad shots in.   If I'm a perfect 8 iron yardage with a left pin, I'm going to fire at that pin every single time.  My tendency on a bad swing is a hook, if that creeps in then it creeps in and I'll deal with the short sided shot as it comes, but I would never in my life aim 40 feet to the right because I might make a bad swing.

 

You're a 1 and I'm a 21, so clearly we're on different planets in many ways here. But I play a draw and my bad swing is a hook. 

 

On an 8 iron shot with a left pin, I'm going to aim well right of it and know that if I hit one straight, I'm putting. If I hit one with my typical draw, it might end up close. Only if I hit a bad hook am I in trouble. 

 

Granted, my short game sucks, so I like to be putting to make golf more boring. If I'm short-sided I'm probably already playing for bogey. I don't have the short game to get it close so I'm likely to be two-putting either way. 

 

As they say the difference between the PGA Tour and a 25 cap is only 4 birdies per round. As a 21, I'm not playing for birdie; I'm playing to try my *best* to take big numbers out of play. I'd assume a 1 cap isn't playing for birdie; they're playing to take bogey out of play. 

[SNIPERBBB]

3 minutes ago, North Butte said:

I do think you have to have great or at least very, very good ball striking to benefit from going through the DECADE planning process.

Not really. Most of these systems rely on probability. If you're swing is consistent and predictable, they're easy to implement. The more erratic you are, planning becomes almost a futile exercise.

[North Butte]

12 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

You're a 13. I'm a 21. There are all SORTS of outcomes in play for every shot we hit. 

 

That doesn't mean that you shouldn't think your way around a course strategically and try to put yourself in good positions and avoid the worst outcomes. 

 

For example, I tend to play a draw, and I have a tendency to turn that draw into a big high sweeping hook. My dispersion can range from straight block (if I don't square the face) to beautiful push draw (my ideal shot) to big high sweeping hook (if I square the face instead of have it SLIGHTLY open for the push draw) to a snap hook (if I close the face). Big range of outcomes. 

 

I have a hole on my usual course which is about a 168y uphill par 3, which typically plays 10y long due to the slope. Left of the green is a bunker. Left of that is dead. MASSIVE downslope with evergreen trees that if you get down there you're praying for double at that point. 

 

I *cannot* aim far enough right on that hole to take the left miss out of play. Because if I do, and hit one straight or a slight block, I'm in the woods or possibly OB. But I *can* aim far enough right to take the left miss out as long as I don't hit the worst of my dispersion. I'll aim right edge, maybe even just off the right edge. A straight shot or slight block is playable. My ideal shot will likely be on the green. Overcooking my draw slightly will put me in the bunker or at least left of the green before going down the slope and being dead. Only my WORST left miss is putting me in blow up hole territory. That's not to say it never happens--I was there last round actually. But it happens a lot less often than if I aim center of the green. 

 

As a 13 (or me as a 21), we can't take anything completely out of play. But sometimes you just have to play the odds to try to make the worst outcomes less likely. 

I used to think somewhat along those lines but the past year or two I've committed to just aiming where I want to hit the ball. If I pull it or hook it or block it or slice it, so be it. I simply can't predict whether a given shot is going to be a left miss or a right miss, unlike you I'm don't really have a predominant miss. 

 

So I used to go through every round trying to think whether one particular miss might put me in a worse place and then aim in the opposite direction, that sort of thing. But what happened over the years is I fell into habits of worrying so much about "the bad miss" I'd be aiming where a straight ball ends up in a bad place. And worse yet, I would chase my misses through a round. Miss two in a row to the right, aim lefter. Miss again to the right, aim farther lefter. Overdo it and miss the next one left, well guess I'd better move back to the right a bit. 

 

Since committing to my "Aim Where You Want To Hit It" mantra my handicap is down several strokes. I probably make almost as many double-and-worse as before but being more confident and committed rather than second-guessing every shot has turned several bogeys per round into pars.

 

I still will aim away from severe trouble, of course. And I will play the percentages if aiming at a spot other than the hole seems prudent. But if I'm aiming 20 feet right of the hole because 20 feet left of the hole is dead, I try my level best to land the ball on that spot 20 feet right of the hole. Not "aim" 20 feet right while really hoping I hit it 20 feet offline so it'll end up at the hole. That sounds like psycho-gobbledegook but for me at least it has made a big difference. 

Edited August 15, 2023 by North Butte

[betarhoalphadelta]

5 minutes ago, North Butte said:

I used to think somewhat along those lines but the past year or two I've committed to just aiming where I want to hit the ball. If I pull it or hook it or block it or slice it, so be it. I simply can't predict whether a given shot is going to be a left miss or a right miss, unlike you I'm don't really have a predominant miss. 

 

So I used to go through every round trying to think whether one particular miss might put me in a worse place and then aim in the opposite direction, that sort of thing. But what happened over the years is I fell into habits of worrying so much about "the bad miss" I'd be aiming where a straight ball ends up in a bad place. And worse yet, I would chase my misses through a round. Miss two in a row to the right, aim lefter. Miss again to the right, aim farther lefter. Overdo it and miss the next one left, well guess I'd better move back to the right a bit. 

 

Since committing to my "Aim Where You Want To Hit It" mantra my handicap is down several strokes. I probably make almost as many double-and-worse as before but being more confident and committed rather than second-guessing every shot has turned several bogeys per round into pars.

 

I still will aim away from severe trouble, of course. And I will play the percentages if aiming at a spot other than the hole seems prudent. But if I'm aiming 20 feet right of the hole because 20 feet left of the hole is dead, I try my level best to land the ball on that spot 20 feet right of the hole. Not "aim" 20 feet right while really hoping I hit it 20 feet offline so it'll end up at the hole. That sounds like psycho-gobbledegook but for me at least it has made a big difference. 

 

Ahh, got it. If you don't have a consistent miss, it makes it a lot harder. 

 

BTW I also "aim where I want to hit it". Per your final paragraph, I will only aim it in a place where I'm completely comfortable hitting it. It's not like when I was 13 and I would aim 40 yards left of the fairway knowing my big banana slice would curve it back 😉 The goal is that I'm playing for my dispersion to be more likely make it better than my aim point, rather than more likely than to make it worse. 

 

If you feel on a certain shot that your dispersion cone is +/- 20 feet, and 20 feet left is truly dead, then you want to aim far enough right to take "dead" out of the equation. Granted that might be 10 feet right if 10 feet left is still OK. Often in these cases it's not like 1 ft left is dead, so you can merely "shade" your dispersion cone to the right. That's effectively what I do on the hole I described. My *worst* left miss is still going to be dead no matter where I aim, but I've got the odds in my favor as long as I don't do that. Whereas if I fire at the pin the odds are that a random and normally benign left miss is also dead. 

 

If you don't have a consistent miss, shade away from dead but there's not much more you can do IMHO. 

 

[MountainKing]

22 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

You're a 1 and I'm a 21, so clearly we're on different planets in many ways here. But I play a draw and my bad swing is a hook. 

 

On an 8 iron shot with a left pin, I'm going to aim well right of it and know that if I hit one straight, I'm putting. If I hit one with my typical draw, it might end up close. Only if I hit a bad hook am I in trouble. 

 

Granted, my short game sucks, so I like to be putting to make golf more boring. If I'm short-sided I'm probably already playing for bogey. I don't have the short game to get it close so I'm likely to be two-putting either way. 

 

As they say the difference between the PGA Tour and a 25 cap is only 4 birdies per round. As a 21, I'm not playing for birdie; I'm playing to try my *best* to take big numbers out of play. I'd assume a 1 cap isn't playing for birdie; they're playing to take bogey out of play. 

 

Despite the handicap - we're not far off in how we play things based on that.   You're still playing the shot you feel comfortable without worrying about a bad shot.

 

In regards to your last part - there's almost zero situations on a course where I'm playing to make birdie, the only exception being shorter par 5's where I'd have an iron in.  I average 1.5 a round so they do come even when not playing.  I just want to be a par machine, but I also have my days, my last round I put up a 46 on the front with 3 doubles a 4 bogies.  The point I guess is no matter the level and what you try, golf just does it's thing now and then.

[RoyalTroon]

20 hours ago, MelloYello said:

You need to evaluate your decisions based on the difficulty of the actual up & down in question (not just go by SG% which considers only distance).

 

Such a good comment!

[PracticeSwinger]

20 hours ago, MelloYello said:

You need to evaluate your decisions based on the difficulty of the actual up & down in question (not just go by SG% which considers only distance). 

 

Consider that if a good player gets up & down 50% of the time, that might actually be 80% from easy spots and 20% from hard spots. So you don't necessarily need to be scared of the easy up & down. 

This is basically the ask I had/have as the OP. Knowing their usual dispersion from that distance, do better players shift their target so a longer and easier (very long fringe putt for example) up and down gets into play and eliminate closer but tougher possible bad lie, bad stance, quick downhill chips to a narrow pin - and/or are they just better at whatever short game result they get and it allows them to zoom in on the pin no matter what (knowing that the 'makeable birdie putt circle, say 8ft' would be included in both those targets selection)

[SNIPERBBB]

1 hour ago, Varry_Hardon said:

This is basically the ask I had/have as the OP. Knowing their usual dispersion from that distance, do better players shift their target so a longer and easier (very long fringe putt for example) up and down gets into play and eliminate closer but tougher possible bad lie, bad stance, quick downhill chips to a narrow pin - and/or are they just better at whatever short game result they get and it allows them to zoom in on the pin no matter what (knowing that the 'makeable birdie putt circle, say 8ft' would be included in both those targets selection)

I don't know why people here lately are concerned about dispersion. It's irrelevant to your decision making.  Dispersion is akin to average. 

 

You need to be concerned with probabilities. If you do want to look at dispersion, look at the concentration of your shots. You're planning would be for the most dense part of that dispersion. As that concentration trails off, gets less dense, that area of the dispersion scatter plot is less likely to occur.

 

Can't worry about bad lie after hitting a shot. That's a random thing unless you're on the green or one area around the green is markedly gnarlier than others. Ditto for stance.

 

It's not really a matter of how good the short game is. It's just a matter of is not missing the green in a certain area guaranteed bogey or not and what's the likelihood of their shot/club selection ending up there.

 

Primary focus avoiding those areas. If you can eliminate that possibility with your club and shot selection you can green light going at the flag.

[PracticeSwinger]

1 minute ago, SNIPERBBB said:

I don't know why people here lately are concerned about dispersion. It's irrelevant to your decision making.  Dispersion is akin to average. 

 

You need to be concerned with probabilities. If you do want to look at dispersion, look at the concentration of your shots. You're planning would be for the most dense part of that dispersion. As that concentration trails off, gets less dense, that area of the dispersion scatter plot is less likely to occur.

Well, that goes without saying, I assume when people talk about dispersion they have in mind their usual 3D-ish 'volcano' density shot pattern. No one thinks about a 85yds wide dispersion from 120 yds in because they shank one back in May.

[MattC555]

From 6 iron on ~190 yards or greater I'm aiming to the safest place possible.  With 7 iron(~175 yards) I'm aiming to a relatively safe area.  That doesn't have to be the middle of the green.  I don't mind an uphill chip that isn't short sided.  From there the shorter the distance in the more aggressive I'll be.  Inside 80 yards I'm generally pin hunting unless there is a serious hazard I'd rather avoid.

 

Some courses allow you to be more aggressive and some layouts favor safer play. 

 

 

[doctor220]

19 hours ago, North Butte said:

No idea how to make it any clearer.

 

When a hole is cut 8 yards from the right edge of a 25-yard wide green and I'm 100 yards away in the middle of the fairway, the only reason NOT to aim at the flag is if there's a water hazard or knee deep rough just off the green. Otherwise, it would be stupid to aim at the middle of the green, 20 feet left of the hole, instead of aiming at the flag.

 

If not 100 yards, then how close do you have to be to aim at the flag. 70 yards? 50 yards? 20 feet? 

 

Within that average 40 foot proximity there are shots that end up 40 yards FROM MY TARGET (which are going to badly miss the green no matter where I am) and there are shots that end up 10 feet FROM MY TARGET (which are legit one-putt opportunities). You seem to be operating on the theory that you can eliminate some meaningful number of horrible shots by simply moving your aiming point 20-25 feet one way or another. Maybe that's true for you, for my game it's not. 

 

The question is whether making your target something other than the hole is going to save you enough double and triple bogeys to be worth not even trying to hit it close. If you play courses so penal that you have to do that from 100 yards (or even 150 yards) then I have to ask why, why, why?

 

 

You’re making a false dichotomy. The potential aiming spots aren’t either at flag or dead center middle of green. In that situation you can aim a few feet left of the flag. 
 

There are absolutely times when as a plus handicap I will not aim at the pin from even 50 yards. Generally as courses get tougher and tougher with firmer and faster conditions , more tucked pins it  becomes more common. But that might mean your spot is 3 feet to one side. 
 

not aiming at the flag doesn’t mean your aiming like 30 feet away, it can be subtle. Or honestly sometimes you will be 50 yards and your target literally is 15-20 feet away, it just means you were in a really tricky spot to begin with. 

[doctor220]

20 hours ago, wagolfer7 said:

I think a lot of this is just over thinking.  

 

I travel quite a bit for work and get to golf a lot on these trips.  Often times I'm playing a course for the first time.  Besides the obvious stuff, like water in front of the green with a front pin, I'm firing at pins.  

 

Most public and even private golf courses are not setup difficult enough to punish a slight missed shot.  Fast greens and long rough is what makes missed shots around the green something you need to plan for. 

 

In competitive play at a golf course that is setup tough, then there's a lot more consideration on where my miss is going to be.  There are times I'd rather be chipping up hill vs a 30 foot downhill putt.  So I'll still be firing at the pin or even short sided part of the green to avoid a difficult 2 putt situation. 

 

PGA stats and US Open holes are worthless to compare to what us normal amateurs play on a regular basis.  

 

Tournament conditions at a golf course that can handle it, make a much different playing experience. 

 

Most greens are not fast enough in my opinion to really worry about being short-sided, in the bunker, etc.  Good players depending on your definition, is not worried up getting up and down at a lot of these regular tracks with every day setups.    

There are essentially 0 times I’d rather have a chip than a 30 foot downhill putt unless the green is literally so fast you cannot keep it on the green if you miss. With a chip your range of outcomes is far far wider and you are going to make it less often. And if these courses are set up as easy as you say, a 30 foot downhill putt should be extremely straightforward and easy to judge the speed 
 

good players should be worried about getting up and down. Your point is simply wrong and a not ideal way to play if you’re trying to score the best. Being in the green gives you a very standard and low variance point to hit the ball from, versus in the greenside rough in which the ball could come out a multitude of ways. 
 

if you want to fire at pins go ahead but it’s def not ideal way to play for most golfers 

[SNIPERBBB]

57 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Well, that goes without saying, I assume when people talk about dispersion they have in mind their usual 3D-ish 'volcano' density shot pattern. No one thinks about a 85yds wide dispersion from 120 yds in because they shank one back in May.

Yes but that is what it means to someone reading casually.  

[PracticeSwinger]

1 hour ago, doctor220 said:

There are essentially 0 times I’d rather have a chip than a 30 foot downhill putt unless the green is literally so fast you cannot keep it on the green if you miss. With a chip your range of outcomes is far far wider and you are going to make it less often. And if these courses are set up as easy as you say, a 30 foot downhill putt should be extremely straightforward and easy to judge the speed 
 

good players should be worried about getting up and down. Your point is simply wrong and a not ideal way to play if you’re trying to score the best. Being in the green gives you a very standard and low variance point to hit the ball from, versus in the greenside rough in which the ball could come out a multitude of ways. 
 

if you want to fire at pins go ahead but it’s def not ideal way to play for most golfers 

Type of discussion I wanted in creating the thread... at times, with your usual shot pattern density for that yardage, on a relatively normal hole (i.e. no water next to the green at right for example) do you find yourself aiming at a target that would mean more balls end up further from the hole (including outside the green) to have easier, longer chips, shots that you think gives you a better up and down chance than bringing in rough next to the hole?

[SNIPERBBB]

I'm going to take in the rough closer to the pin everytime if I don't have to hit a elevated chip/pitch to get near the hole. Closer is always better.

 

I don't like playing safe for the sake of being safe. If a shot brings guaranteed bogey into play then I'll play away from it. If not, id rather give myself a chance at bird.

[wagolfer7]

2 hours ago, doctor220 said:

There are essentially 0 times I’d rather have a chip than a 30 foot downhill putt unless the green is literally so fast you cannot keep it on the green if you miss. With a chip your range of outcomes is far far wider and you are going to make it less often. And if these courses are set up as easy as you say, a 30 foot downhill putt should be extremely straightforward and easy to judge the speed 
 

good players should be worried about getting up and down. Your point is simply wrong and a not ideal way to play if you’re trying to score the best. Being in the green gives you a very standard and low variance point to hit the ball from, versus in the greenside rough in which the ball could come out a multitude of ways. 
 

if you want to fire at pins go ahead but it’s def not ideal way to play for most golfers 

 

Re-read my post.  

 

I said that in competition play setup, there are times, I'd rather be off the green than having a downhill putt.  And yes the greens are that fast, that two tiered greens or large slopes, it can be hard to stay on the green or leave it close on a putt. 

 

Which goes back to the other thing I said.  Outside of competition and golf courses that have the ability to juice up their playing conditions.....most golf courses with every day setups are not difficult enough to be scared of missing short sided or being in an area that's really dead on most of the holes.

 

Course setup and playing conditions make a world of difference.  Which is why it's really hard to compare to PGA stats always playing in competition.  Just had the Mid AM about a month ago and there were plenty of + handicaps shooting in the high 80 and 90's because of course conditions.  It's hard to adjust your playing style and strategy if you aren't used to it.    

  

[doctor220]

1 hour ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

Re-read my post.  

 

I said that in competition play setup, there are times, I'd rather be off the green than having a downhill putt.  And yes the greens are that fast, that two tiered greens or large slopes, it can be hard to stay on the green or leave it close on a putt. 

 

Which goes back to the other thing I said.  Outside of competition and golf courses that have the ability to juice up their playing conditions.....most golf courses with every day setups are not difficult enough to be scared of missing short sided or being in an area that's really dead on most of the holes.

 

Course setup and playing conditions make a world of difference.  Which is why it's really hard to compare to PGA stats always playing in competition.  Just had the Mid AM about a month ago and there were plenty of + handicaps shooting in the high 80 and 90's because of course conditions.  It's hard to adjust your playing style and strategy if you aren't used to it.    

  

You act like typical amateurs or even scratch players get up and down every time or even a significant percentage of the time when it just isn’t true. 
 

Your conclusion is just wrong plain and simple , hence why data doesn’t not support it. Most people get up and down less than half the time , and until you are at the elite am or pga tour level this basically holds true. Scratch golfers do not get up and down 75% of the time from greenside rough from basically any distance 

[wagolfer7]

16 minutes ago, doctor220 said:

You act like typical amateurs or even scratch players get up and down every time or even a significant percentage of the time when it just isn’t true. 
 

Your conclusion is just wrong plain and simple , hence why data doesn’t not support it. Most people get up and down less than half the time , and until you are at the elite am or pga tour level this basically holds true. Scratch golfers do not get up and down 75% of the time from greenside rough from basically any distance 

I never said that or implied that one bit.  

 

OP asked for an opinion on whether good players targets are still too aggressive.  I simply stated that most courses with every day setups, do not have tough enough conditions to really have to avoid missing short sided, etc. 

 

Better players is a very vague term.  I considered it scratch or plus golfers.  And you don't get to +3 or better by just bogey avoidance. 

 

It's just the way I play and how I've seen plus golfers play on regular every day tracks.       

 

[MelloYello]

3 hours ago, Varry_Hardon said:

...on a relatively normal hole...do you find yourself aiming at a target that would mean more balls end up further from the hole (including outside the green) to have easier, longer chips, shots that you think gives you a better up and down chance than bringing in rough next to the hole?

 

In your scenario it really depends whether the longer chip (which is unlikely to result in a tap-in) is really still preferable to the danger you described being short-sided. 

 

I think most players would take the short-sided miss if it's manageable. But if the short-sided miss brings terrible rough or a hazard into play, you're likely to see good players bailing out towards that longer chip, especially with longer approach distances.

 

I usually aim in simple terms. I think about whether it's better to be short, long, left or right of a pin and try to (intuitively) center my dispersion in a place where the average shot is okay and the worst shot(s) are still playable, resulting in a bogey-at-worst outcome, maybe a failed up-and-down with an easy tap-in bogey.

 

Sometimes that's just about landing the ball in the center of the green which may be left/right of the stick. Sometimes it's about avoiding trouble that's long/short. Again, it really goes back to making sure you can easily access the pin with your next shot.

 

Preferably, that's a putt, but you're really looking to just avoid the hack-it-out or pitch-it-to-20-ft scenario that takes par out of the equation and might mean stressing over the 2-putt for bogey. 

 

.

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by MelloYello

[PracticeSwinger]

39 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

In your scenario it really depends whether the longer chip (which is unlikely to result in a tap-in) is really still preferable to the danger you described being short-sided. 

 

I think most players would take the short-sided miss if it's manageable. But if the short-sided miss brings terrible rough or a hazard into play, you're likely to see good players bailing out towards that longer chip, especially with longer approach distances.

 

I usually aim in simple terms. I think about whether it's better to be short, long, left or right of a pin and try to (intuitively) center my dispersion in a place where the average shot is okay and the worst shot(s) are still playable, resulting in a bogey-at-worst outcome, maybe a failed up-and-down with an easy tap-in bogey.

 

Sometimes that's just about landing the ball in the center of the green which may be left/right of the stick. Sometimes it's about avoiding trouble that's long/short. Again, it really goes back to making sure you can easily access the pin with your next shot.

 

Preferably, that's a putt, but you're really looking to just avoid the hack-it-out or pitch-it-to-20-ft scenario that takes par out of the equation and might mean stressing over the 2-putt for bogey. 

 

.

 

 

 

Excellent, looks similar to my thought process, which basically confirms that’s it’s more of a physical skill for me to develop (in order to get to scratch or pluses) for better up and down and 3 putt avoidance numbers. 

[getitdaily]

23 hours ago, Varry_Hardon said:

As the OP, I just want to put emphasis that I wasn't looking for a mindset that would include mishits and altogether bad shots - that's just madness.

 

I was just trying to figure out if better players, knowing their usual tendendies, are/were better players because they adjust their target in general to avoid short-siding themselves, even to a degree that it would bring a longer combo of putts and/or chips into their pattern rather than having possibly a bad lie, bad stance combo to a pin that's on a downhill having to drop it on the fringe to make sure it doesn't release 20ft by - or if they are/were better players because they don't adjust that target much and are able to deal with those tough upcoming shots that might be

It's both. The shorter the club the less likely I am to change my strategy to fire at the pin. The longer the club the more likely I'm going to take 30-40 feet away as a reasonable result. 

 

I try to avoid the big miss which usually comes with the longer clubs.

[MountainKing]

On 8/16/2023 at 1:28 PM, wagolfer7 said:

I never said that or implied that one bit.  

 

OP asked for an opinion on whether good players targets are still too aggressive.  I simply stated that most courses with every day setups, do not have tough enough conditions to really have to avoid missing short sided, etc. 

 

Better players is a very vague term.  I considered it scratch or plus golfers.  And you don't get to +3 or better by just bogey avoidance. 

 

It's just the way I play and how I've seen plus golfers play on regular every day tracks.       

 

 

I'd have to agree with a lot of this, white short side sucks, there's very few public tracks that have truly difficult pitch/chip shots when short you miss on the wrong side.   With that said, me personally I'd still prefer to be on the other side, if you give me a lot of green to work with and a decent lie, I'm up and down about 70% of the time.  I'm not 70 on average tho because the other scenario's end up balancing that out.

 

And yeah funny enough I was having a conversation about better players the other day that came about me telling somebody I'm not a great golfer. I guess a lot of that is perspective.  I used to be good, but as a 1 handicap these days I don't really think I'm good at the sport anymore, but I do have fun playing it.   I really don't think anybody is good, or a better player, until they are in the + numbers.    I'm working to get back there.