Snap Hooks Only with Driver

[KD1]

43 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Every shot should be analyzed in this order: 

1. Strike - If the strike was good move on...if not disregard the result and go find strike

2. Start Direction - If the start direction was good move on...if not go find it while maintaining strike.

3. Curvature - If it was good move on...If not plane/shoulder line, club face, or a combo of both need to be adjusted to create a given amount of curvature of the shot and this is what I suggested to you earlier. 

4. Speed - The only factor that you should be worried about as you stand over the ball as the other three should have be predicted in your pre shot routine.  You decide how much speed is injected into the shot and over time you will develop distance control.  

...

IMPACT IS BOSS AND THAT IS WHERE YOUR FOCUS SHOULD ALWAYS BE!  

 

Aren't you focusing on the symptoms and not the cause?

 

He can spend weeks or years on the range trying to 'go find strike' and possibly never find it or he can ask for help as to why he can't find it consistently and expedite the whole process.

 

Someone posted here the other day "why am I hitting hosel rockets?" Someone else answered "you're hitting hosel rockets because you're hitting the hosel. The fix is to stop hitting the hosel. the end." ... well duh...

Edited September 12, 2023 by KD1

[ChrisSP]

You'll get far better technical advice from others who are more qualified in this thread, but as a pretty good player who tends to fight quick hooks with the driver on occasion, my fix for getting out of that rut is to spend some range time hitting drivers off the deck. While it can be really ugly at first, doing so usually helps me clean up setup and path issues that might have arisen. And once I start hitting it solidly off the deck, I'm typically back in business. Anyway, maybe not the right advice for this player, but a tip that could possibly help someone.

[Golf_Goof]

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Every shot should be analyzed in this order: 

1. Strike - If the strike was good move on...if not disregard the result and go find strike

2. Start Direction - If the start direction was good move on...if not go find it while maintaining strike.

3. Curvature - If it was good move on...If not plane/shoulder line, club face, or a combo of both need to be adjusted to create a given amount of curvature of the shot and this is what I suggested to you earlier. 

4. Speed - The only factor that you should be worried about as you stand over the ball as the other three should have be predicted in your pre shot routine.  You decide how much speed is injected into the shot and over time you will develop distance control.  

 

In other words; if you happen to get lucky once, keep trying stuff until you get lucky again. "Go find strike" is like the blind squirrel method.

 

Forgive the sarcasm here; but seriously, if you haven't already done so, I'd suggest you create a thread to promote your ideas for the forum to critique, rather than to keep offering the same unorthodox advice to anyone who has a question about their swing/ballflight. 

[mgoblue83]

Great swing but it's more suitable for long drive than scoring. Need to level out the AoA, lower the tee height and bring the ball back a bit in your stance. Don't change your action it looks great. 

[cav5]

3 hours ago, getitdaily said:

Ummm, no.

 

Get back to me when you understand swing arc and where the face tends to want to point at various parts of that swing arch.

 

Ball is too far forward. Ball that far forward should see a path that is at least 3 degrees in...sometimes more. The face should be closed at that point so he's manipulating release to hold off hitting it a mile right (lefty hook). Except now he's not able to hold off the release. 

 

Furthermore, he's already told us he's hitting hooks. So...

You definitely do not want to argue about swing arc with @Righty to Lefty. He will run laps around you. Your entire argument is full of "shoulds".

[getitdaily]

3 minutes ago, cav5 said:

You definitely do not want to argue about swing arc with @Righty to Lefty. He will run laps around you. Your entire argument is full of "shoulds".

He is 100% off course here.

 

I'll argue paths all day long. Here is why I used "should"...

 

OP is a quality player. Quality players will find a way to get it done. They (we, because I'm one) find a way to make things work. OP is making things work. However, I'll steal a line from monte here...he's making it hard on himself.

 

That ball position is ripe for hooks. The lateral move (and hanging on the trail side) is ripe for hooks. OP likely has elite level hand-eye coordination. That allows him to get away with some extremes...until those extremes catch up to him.

[JBerenger]

Thanks everyone for all your responses I read them all and took some of your advice while hitting some balls today here are some videos from today. Working on weight more in heels, standing a bit further from it, lower tee, ball position back. The FO angle is a bit behind the ball so it looks a little further forward than it actually is, I was trying to have the ball on my front heel. 

@MonteScheinblum

@Righty to Lefty

@TLUBulldogGolf

@Valtiel

@Jayjay_theweim_guy

@getitdaily

Please let me know any other feedback you guys may have. Thanks.

 

 

[JBerenger]

2 hours ago, getitdaily said:

He is 100% off course here.

 

I'll argue paths all day long. Here is why I used "should"...

 

OP is a quality player. Quality players will find a way to get it done. They (we, because I'm one) find a way to make things work. OP is making things work. However, I'll steal a line from monte here...he's making it hard on himself.

 

That ball position is ripe for hooks. The lateral move (and hanging on the trail side) is ripe for hooks. OP likely has elite level hand-eye coordination. That allows him to get away with some extremes...until those extremes catch up to him.

@cav5 yes I played high level baseball my whole life until college as well as high school football so I have good enough eye hand that allows me to get away with alot of things that I probably shouldn't and thats why my swing can get so out of sorts at times.

[getitdaily]

1 hour ago, JBerenger said:

Thanks everyone for all your responses I read them all and took some of your advice while hitting some balls today here are some videos from today. Working on weight more in heels, standing a bit further from it, lower tee, ball position back. The FO angle is a bit behind the ball so it looks a little further forward than it actually is, I was trying to have the ball on my front heel. 

@MonteScheinblum

@Righty to Lefty

@TLUBulldogGolf

@Valtiel

@Jayjay_theweim_guy

@getitdaily

Please let me know any other feedback you guys may have. Thanks.

 

 

I think distance from the ball is good but will defer if monte responds. He may like just a hair more distance with driver.

 

Ball.is still right at 1 ball too much forward. But keep working. 

 

Do you use a launch monitor when you hit into that net? Are you aware of your path and face to path numbers? Do you know what path and face to path do to ballflight?

[JBerenger]

Just now, getitdaily said:

I think distance from the ball is good but will defer if monte responds. He may like just a hair more distance with driver.

 

Ball.is still right at 1 ball too much forward. But keep working. 

 

Do you use a launch monitor when you hit into that net? Are you aware of your path and face to path numbers? Do you know what path and face to path do to ballflight?

I have a launch monitor at work that I practice on don't know my club stats though but I also don't love hitting on monitors because I always end up swinging too hard and worrying about the distance. Hitting on a monitor is what got me into this problem in the first place. 

[JBerenger]

@getitdaily And yes Im a club fitter so Im very familiar with the ball flight laws just I try not to get too technical with my swing because it usually doesn't translate onto the course for me, I'm very feel based. 

[getitdaily]

4 minutes ago, JBerenger said:

I have a launch monitor at work that I practice on don't know my club stats though but I also don't love hitting on monitors because I always end up swinging too hard and worrying about the distance. Hitting on a monitor is what got me into this problem in the first place. 

Easy to chase numbers. Keep working on that ball position.  A few things to help guide you..

 

The farther the ball is forward the more your path should get right unless you're doing some crazy in to out path stuff, which it doesn't look like you are. The face will also want to be closed more and more the more forward contact is. Again, unless you're manipulating to hold the face open.

 

The reverse is true...ball back, path tends to get to your left and face will naturally be a bit more open unless you manipulate. Ball farther back the shorter the club gets. Wedges get played a ball or 2 forward of center. Driver off the lead heel. 

 

The more you move laterally the more the path can want to creep to your left. You maintain side bend well but be aware of this. 

 

Farther the hands are away from you the more thr path will want to shift to your left. Again, something to be aware of as you make changes.

 

Do you feel more dominant with your lead hand or trail (bottom) hand in the downswing?

[Ri_Redneck]

Your swing looks a lot more in control. I was thrown off a bit by the closed position at the top because your grip didn't look that strong at address. Then I realized you have a cupped right wrist which will mask it. If you straighten that wrist at address, the clubface will close A LOT! but it's nice and straight at impact so your good.

 

I am a strong grip player too and have a similar position at the top. However, I keep my lead wrist flat at all times because the old eye/hand coordination doesn't always hold up when you get to my age!

 

Good luck with things!!

 

BT

[golferdude54]

20 hours ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

-I dream of getting that kind of side-bend through impact

I, too, dream of getting that much side-bend… So I can completely mess up my spine long-term and get back surgery.

[getitdaily]

12 minutes ago, JBerenger said:

@getitdaily And yes Im a club fitter so Im very familiar with the ball flight laws just I try not to get too technical with my swing because it usually doesn't translate onto the course for me, I'm very feel based. 

What's your handicap and what are your golf goals?

[JBerenger]

2 hours ago, getitdaily said:

What's your handicap and what are your golf goals?

I’m a 4 right now and I just want to make all conference this year which basically I need to shoot 2 rounds in the 70s at bethpage red

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

2 hours ago, golferdude54 said:

I, too, dream of getting that much side-bend… So I can completely mess up my spine long-term and get back surgery.

"That's why no one will ever know your name."  

[getitdaily]

11 hours ago, JBerenger said:

I’m a 4 right now and I just want to make all conference this year which basically I need to shoot 2 rounds in the 70s at bethpage red

There can be a bit of a balance, but imagine if you leveraged club data to better understand feels...

 

Or use club data to understand tendencies of certain setup positions. 

 

You can be a feel player and know your data. They are not mutually exclusive.

[JBerenger]

1 hour ago, getitdaily said:

There can be a bit of a balance, but imagine if you leveraged club data to better understand feels...

 

Or use club data to understand tendencies of certain setup positions. 

 

You can be a feel player and know your data. They are not mutually exclusive.

Oh yeah 100% would love to be have access to gcquad or trackman or even some of the cheaper monitors like the full swing or bushnell to have that ability to see those advanced numbers but unfortunately I’m a broke college student and can’t afford those. My school is in the process of getting a simulator but don’t know if we will have it until after I graduate so… it just is what it is for now. But yes I totally agree with you that it’s super helpful to know those numbers but I’m just not able to afford a launch monitor or lessons from a coach with one. 

[getitdaily]

1 minute ago, JBerenger said:

Oh yeah 100% would love to be have access to gcquad or trackman or even some of the cheaper monitors like the full swing or bushnell to have that ability to see those advanced numbers but unfortunately I’m a broke college student and can’t afford those. My school is in the process of getting a simulator but don’t know if we will have it until after I graduate so… it just is what it is for now. But yes I totally agree with you that it’s super helpful to know those numbers but I’m just not able to afford a launch monitor or lessons from a coach with one. 

Hang on here...just a few posts above you said you have a LM at work that you practice with and you're a club fitter...

 

What am I missing?

[TLUBulldogGolf]

17 hours ago, JBerenger said:

Thanks everyone for all your responses I read them all and took some of your advice while hitting some balls today here are some videos from today. Working on weight more in heels, standing a bit further from it, lower tee, ball position back. The FO angle is a bit behind the ball so it looks a little further forward than it actually is, I was trying to have the ball on my front heel. 

@MonteScheinblum

@Righty to Lefty

@TLUBulldogGolf

@Valtiel

@Jayjay_theweim_guy

@getitdaily

Please let me know any other feedback you guys may have. Thanks.

 

 

 

This is probably more of a long term thought but I think a slightly less shut clubface would make things easier on you and help with wedge play/short game. I would stick with the setup change for a while like Monte said, it took me a solid 6 months to feel comfortable with a setup change. 

[Righty to Lefty]

23 hours ago, KD1 said:

 

Aren't you focusing on the symptoms and not the cause?

 

He can spend weeks or years on the range trying to 'go find strike' and possibly never find it or he can ask for help as to why he can't find it consistently and expedite the whole process.

 

Someone posted here the other day "why am I hitting hosel rockets?" Someone else answered "you're hitting hosel rockets because you're hitting the hosel. The fix is to stop hitting the hosel. the end." ... well duh...

Absolutely not...I focus on impact and the resulting ball flight...always and work backwards from there as ball flight tells exactly what must be corrected.  The math of impact is the same for everyone, everyday, forever thus that is where the focus should be at all times because we all have our own individual swing motions and they should be changed as a last resort.  The first thing is to get into better position to strike the ball and then see how much of the swing smooths itself out naturally because the body does crazy things when it is out of position to the ball.  Just like a baseball player being fooled on a change up, of course they flipped at the ball, that is because the brain realized that it was fooled and is now out of position to hit the ball with leverage. Golf is no different. 

 

So yes, if you hit the hosel, you should absolutely take your natural swing motion and move to a different location and swing from there and note the results rather than stay in the same location and make a manipulation (ie swing motion change) to try to hit the center of the face.  If the athlete is paying attention to where they are striking the ground on their practice swing and noting where the club is striking the ground, and then putting the ball just behind that location and making the same swing motion as their practice swing, it would be impossible to hit a shank, that is how you go find strike.  I assure you that if you don't compromise your swing motion that I could put you in the location to hit whatever shot you wanted within 2 or 3 swings. I do it all the time with my 14 year old Son that is a rank beginner.  @cav5 also has seen this with his own eyes when he believed that he couldn't hit a fade with his driver. One swing later he was proven to be incorrect in that assertion. Golfers that continually change their swing motion and don't understand impact are hurting themselves worse than they could ever imagine.  Once again I will say, where you are in relation to the ball is orders of magnitude more important than how your swing motion looks visually.  You could put a swing robot, with the most precise and repeatable swing motion ever to exist, out of position to the ball by the width of a golf ball, and render it a hacker, that is how important where you are in relation to the ball is.  

[Righty to Lefty]

13 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

This is probably more of a long term thought but I think a slightly less shut clubface would make things easier on you and help with wedge play/short game. I would stick with the setup change for a while like Monte said, it took me a solid 6 months to feel comfortable with a setup change. 

This is the solution to him hitting snap hooks and I suggested the exact same thing when I stated that he should open the face from how he usually holds the club, then take his grip while changing nothing else. This will immediately soften his hooks and will not take months to become comfortable...it will be immediate and is the simple fix.  Changing ones swing motion takes months and months to become comfortable with and that is precisely why I said that it should be a last resort solution. If you truly understand impact and d plane this fix or a plane angle adjustment are obvious because they are the only solution to fixing the snap hook issue and not a swing motion change. Am I making sense?  

 

20 hours ago, getitdaily said:

He is 100% off course here.

 

I'll argue paths all day long. Here is why I used "should"...

 

OP is a quality player. Quality players will find a way to get it done. They (we, because I'm one) find a way to make things work. OP is making things work. However, I'll steal a line from monte here...he's making it hard on himself.

 

That ball position is ripe for hooks. The lateral move (and hanging on the trail side) is ripe for hooks. OP likely has elite level hand-eye coordination. That allows him to get away with some extremes...until those extremes catch up to him.

BALL POSITION DOES NOT HIT HOOKS WITHOUT ALSO COMPROMISING QUALITY OF STRIKE...FACE TO PATH RELATIONSHIP IS WHAT HITS HOOKS WHILE STILL STRIKING IT OUT OF THE MIDDLE OF THE FACE...PERIOD!! The hooks will persist even if he lowers his tee height because that in no way addresses the root of the issue which is his face to path relationship at impact so he would still have to make a club face, club plane/ shoulder line, or a combo of both to correct the ball flight and soften the hook and there is no way around this because it would still be present, even at a lower tee height.  Hand eye coordination has nothing to do with hitting a golf ball, because it isn't moving. If you get your low point set in a certain location and do move, your arc will intersect the ball no matter what. Matter of fact here is a video of me hitting driver off a high tee with my low point some 2 feet behind the ball where I'm not even looking at the ball, just making sure my low point stays stable and doesn't move.  I have never swung and missed the ball. 

 

 

[cav5]

double post

Edited September 13, 2023 by cav5

[getitdaily]

9 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

This is the solution to him hitting snap hooks and I suggested the exact same thing when I stated that he should open the face from how he usually holds the club, then take his grip while changing nothing else. This will immediately soften his hooks and will not take months to become comfortable...it will be immediate and is the simple fix.  Changing ones swing motion takes months and months to become comfortable with and that is precisely why I said that it should be a last resort solution. If you truly understand impact and d plane this fix or a plane angle adjustment are obvious because they are the only solution to fixing the snap hook issue and not a swing motion change. Am I making sense?  

 

BALL POSITION DOES NOT HIT HOOKS WITHOUT ALSO COMPROMISING QUALITY OF STRIKE...FACE TO PATH RELATIONSHIP IS WHAT HITS HOOKS WHILE STILL STRIKING IT OUT OF THE MIDDLE OF THE FACE...PERIOD!! The hooks will persist even if he lowers his tee height because that in no way addresses the root of the issue which is his face to path relationship at impact so he would still have to make a club face, club plane/ shoulder line, or a combo of both to correct the ball flight and soften the hook and there is no way around this because it would still be present, even at a lower tee height.  Hand eye coordination has nothing to do with hitting a golf ball, because it isn't moving. If you get your low point set in a certain location and do move, your arc will intersect the ball no matter what. Matter of fact here is a video of me hitting driver off a high tee with my low point some 2 feet behind the ball where I'm not even looking at the ball, just making sure my low point stays stable and doesn't move.  I have never swung and missed the ball. 

 

 

So, add a band-aid rather than fix the problem. Got it.

 

[Righty to Lefty]

8 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

So, add a band-aid rather than fix the problem. Got it.

 

You have got to be kidding me. If you don't understand then you should ask for clarification on what you don't understand rather than thinking that your one sentence response somehow helps in clarifying things because it doesn't. I assure you that I know what I am talking about and I have lived it playing both right and left handed to a 5 handicap while having never had a lesson.  I don't have the time or patience for swing tips and I have also seen the damage that making swing motion changes creates because it creates even more frustration when you make them and it still doesn't resolve the issue because you never addresses the root of the issue which is being out of position to the ball.  

Edited September 13, 2023 by Righty to Lefty

[getitdaily]

Just now, Righty to Lefty said:

You have got to be kidding me. If you don't understand then you should ask for clarification on what you don't understand rather than thinking that your one sentence response somehow helps in clarifying things because it doesn't. I assure you that I know what I am talking about and I have lived it playing both right and left handed to a 5 handicap while having never had a lesson.  I don't have the time or patience for swing tips and I have also seen the damage that making swing motion changes creates because it creates even more frustration when you make them and it still doesn't resolve the issue because you never addresses the root of the issue which is being out of position to the ball.  

I've gotten to a + cap while having lessons. 

 

How's that for a 1 sentence reply. 

 

You are implying that he needs to figure out impact positions through trial and error. That has gotten him where he is. You are telling him to double down on his current state. Folks who know are suggesting very simple fixes that are setup related. His swing is fine, his setup is off. Easy fixes. He could use a taming of the lateral, but that may resolve itself with the setup changes.

[Righty to Lefty]

On 9/12/2023 at 10:02 AM, getitdaily said:

Ummm, no.

 

Get back to me when you understand swing arc and where the face tends to want to point at various parts of that swing arch.

 

Ball is too far forward. Ball that far forward should see a path that is at least 3 degrees in...sometimes more. The face should be closed at that point so he's manipulating release to hold off hitting it a mile right (lefty hook). Except now he's not able to hold off the release. 

 

Furthermore, he's already told us he's hitting hooks. So...

I'm back to you right now in that case:  

The first model is a square to the arc iron shot while the second model is a square to the arc driver shot and you could put that pencil at any point along the arc and then align it to to the target line and it would fly straight so your ball position assertion is incorrect because if the ball position was too far forward strike would be compromised and he never mentioned that his strike was compromised.  There is absolutely no way that you can tell from a face on view if the ball position is too far forward so you were just guessing because he hit didn't mention that the shot presented was a hook and you would need to see down the line to even begin to try and detect a hook.   I am not understanding your "3 degrees in" reference as he is clearly hitting up on these shots and thus he would be striking the shots on the out to in portion of his swing arc.  

Edited September 13, 2023 by Righty to Lefty

[Righty to Lefty]

19 hours ago, JBerenger said:

Thanks everyone for all your responses I read them all and took some of your advice while hitting some balls today here are some videos from today. Working on weight more in heels, standing a bit further from it, lower tee, ball position back. The FO angle is a bit behind the ball so it looks a little further forward than it actually is, I was trying to have the ball on my front heel. 

@MonteScheinblum

@Righty to Lefty

@TLUBulldogGolf

@Valtiel

@Jayjay_theweim_guy

@getitdaily

Please let me know any other feedback you guys may have. Thanks.

 

 

You have a fantastic and powerful swing motion Man.  This shot looks to be struck very well and given your shoulder line you hit this ball very straight and square to the arc given where the ball took off because down the line a ball struck on the out to in portion of the swing arc should look like a pull on video.

 

 

Just flip these around to be a lefty but you can see that on the out to in part of the swing while struck with a positive angle of attack how the pencil representing the club face points to the left, which would be the right for you while using a similar shoulder line to what you show in your down the line video. This is not a hook, this ball would fly straight, but to the left of the target line or the right in your case. All you have to do is monitor the club face by making a slow motion swing and noting where the face begins to square to your intended target line, and the ball needs to be at that location.  Your club face is likely pointing too far left at this moment and that will create a hook. That is why it has been suggested to open the face and take your grip, or hold the face in place while rotating your shoulder line more to the right, which will effectively make you strike the ball earlier in your arc before the face can point right of the target line, or a lesser adjustment of both to remedy the hook and create a more neutral ball flight.  Am I making sense and are you tracking?  

[Righty to Lefty]

35 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

I've gotten to a + cap while having lessons. 

 

How's that for a 1 sentence reply. 

 

You are implying that he needs to figure out impact positions through trial and error. That has gotten him where he is. You are telling him to double down on his current state. Folks who know are suggesting very simple fixes that are setup related. His swing is fine, his setup is off. Easy fixes. He could use a taming of the lateral, but that may resolve itself with the setup changes.

Go hit shots left handed and report back when you are a even a 15 handicap...I'll wait. Also since you are a + handicap right handed then your swing motion left handed should look amazing and you should immediately be able to perform a functional golf shot because you are so proficient playing right handed. I'll wait for the swing videos as I'm sure you will have the ready immediately. I played pretty golf swing right handed and it took me six years to break 90 right handed.  I understood impact as I switched over to lefty and it took me six months to break 90 and I shot 1 over par within 18 months.  I never once filmed my swing during that time and only monitored my impact. I am not attempting to get in a pissing contest with you in regards to handicap but what I am trying to show is that understanding impact and how it applies to the golfer is much more important than how the swing looks visually because even if someone posted their swing on here and stated that they were hitting it amazing, their swing would still fail the eye test and would be picked apart.  I literally hit the ball just as far as Rory does left handed but if I put my swing on here asking for advice it would be mascaraed even if the shot posted flew some 300 yards finishing at 330 which are common numbers that I achieve with driver.  

 

Impact is not trial and error as there is only one point along your swing arc that produces the shot you intend and everything else is a miss....period.  Adjustments to swing motion are not simple fixes and lowering tee height does not fix the issue either if you truly understand impact.  This is not up for debate...it is fact. So say he lowers his tee height...great... now he is hitting a hook with a lower angle of attack...how does that in any way fix the hook?  It just flat out doesn't as a club face, plane / shoulder line adjustment, or a combo of the two are the only ways to correct shot curvature issues because if the ball was too far forward he would also be mentioning that his strike is bad, but he is not stating that and that is important to note. It is much easier to correct ball flight if you don't compromise your swing motion and only make plane and or club face adjustments as these are adjustments that are made all the time to get through a given round of golf and you would never change your swing motion mid round.  Am I making sense?