The behind the golfer camera angle is under used.

[Albatross Dreamer]

17 minutes ago, iacas said:

Walking is the act of repeatedly catching yourself from falling.

 

So is the transition and early downswing in golf, except without the "repeatedly" part.

Well unless you're this kid.

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, Albatross Dreamer said:

Let's say reasonably close to anatomical "norms" of 40° of hip IR and 60° hip ER.

 

In the backswing? Who has 40° of IR? Not many.

 

Heck, Rory only rotates his hips back about 38°, and his right femur doesn't stay oriented 100% forward, either, so he's not sniffing 40° of IR in his right hip during the backswing.

 

8 minutes ago, Albatross Dreamer said:

I'm not necessarily disputing people can get into positions by orienting (compensating), but where the motion comes from may not be where we would "want". This is actually something I wanna dive into deeper over this off-season.

 

Not compensating. Their current swings are more "compensating" than what I often ask them to do.

 

Maybe it was an AMG video (maybe the hour-long one) where they said Tour players or really good players would say they couldn't do some of the things the amateur right before them was doing.

 

Tour players do things FAST, but they don't often do things "more." More often, they're actually doing LESS than amateurs are doing (which is part of the reason they can do them so fast).

 

5 minutes ago, Albatross Dreamer said:

 

That's Milo Lines at age 3.

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by iacas

[MonteScheinblum]

More often, they're actually doing LESS than amateurs are doing (which is part of the reason they can do them so fast)

 

BINGO!!!!!!!!!

[xabia]

I've been working on this a lot lately. I know and understand it needs to be done, I can see that all elite players do it, I can pantomime it, I can do it on practice swings.. when playing golf with a scorecard in my hand its hard to consciously think about doing it. When thinking of doing it, I tend to sway and throw my whole body at the ball

 

Been trying to get the early shift to happen subconsciously (which is a consciousness loop) so I can focus on separating the upper and lower body more.  

[Albatross Dreamer]

22 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

In the backswing? Who has 40° of IR? Not many.

 

Heck, Rory only rotates his hips back about 38°, and his right femur doesn't stay oriented 100% forward, either, so he's not sniffing 40° of IR in his right hip during the backswing.

 

 

Not compensating. Their current swings are more "compensating" than what I often ask them to do.

 

Maybe it was an AMG video (maybe the hour-long one) where they said Tour players or really good players would say they couldn't do some of the things the amateur right before them was doing.

 

Tour players do things FAST, but they don't often do things "more." More often, they're actually doing LESS than amateurs are doing (which is part of the reason they can do them so fast).

 

 

That's Milo Lines at age 3.

 

I think we're thinking different things for each of the terms. I'll start another thread at some point when I have time to flush out what I mean more clearly and we can dive into this specific topic deeper.

 

But I agree with what you're saying about the swing in general. A bad swing is going to have more compensations within the swing itself. And more excessive motion along with perceived effort.

[MPStrat]

I like to think of it in this generalized way… Pros work harder in the backswing, ams are forced to work harder in the downswing to make up for the work they neglected in the backswing. Ams might be measured to do “more” in the backswing, but that “more” is physically easier to perform from a physical effort standpoint. Winding things up in an organized manner with some inclination takes more effort than for example lazily spinning everything flat. 

[Shilgy]

@MonteScheinblum

I'm guessing this and the earlier wrist set in another recent thread go together a bit?

 

And fixing both would contribute greatly to ending my issue with (especially ) driver swing arm overrun.

[MonteScheinblum]

8 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

@MonteScheinblum

I'm guessing this and the earlier wrist set in another recent thread go together a bit?

 

And fixing both would contribute greatly to ending my issue with (especially ) driver swing arm overrun.

Si 

[iacas]

46 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Pros work harder in the backswing

 

I don't agree.

 

46 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

ams are forced to work harder in the downswing to make up for the work they neglected in the backswing

 

Ams are forced to work harder in the downswing to reverse the extra work they did in the backswing.

 

FTFY.

 

46 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Ams might be measured to do “more” in the backswing, but that “more” is physically easier to perform from a physical effort standpoint.

 

Nope.

[MPStrat]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

Nope.

I disagree

[Ajgaguy83]

1 hour ago, Albatross Dreamer said:

Well unless you're this kid.

See the haters are correct. His right hip is way back and his tush line is elite. 🤪

[Ajgaguy83]

52 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

@MonteScheinblum

I'm guessing this and the earlier wrist set in another recent thread go together a bit?

 

And fixing both would contribute greatly to ending my issue with (especially ) driver swing arm overrun.

Can someone direct me to the post?

[iacas]

18 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I disagree

 

Pros not only do less, they're more balanced as they do it. Neither of those things support your position.

[MonteScheinblum]

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Pros not only do less, they're more balanced as they do it. Neither of those things support your position.

I hear this more times a week than I can count…., “This is so much easier and less physically exerting than what I normally do.”

 

Since 95% of my lessons are addressing setup up, backswing and first move down……

 

Backswing hip sway, arm over run and carrying the weight of the club with a poor or late wrist hinge is a lot of work.

 

Theres a reason why ams swinging 95 mph look like they are swinging harder than a pro swinging at 120.  Efficiency looks and feels slower and easier.

Edited November 7, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[MPStrat]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Pros not only do less, they're more balanced as they do it. Neither of those things support your position.

Neither of those things prove or disprove either position. A huge issue among amateurs is turning flat in the backswing because It is physically easier to swing at something that is shoulder level than it is to swing with an inclination at something on the ground. 

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Neither of those things prove or disprove either position. A huge issue among amateurs is turning flat in the backswing because It is physically easier to swing at something that is shoulder level than it is to swing with an inclination at something on the ground. 

 

Sorry, bud.

[MK7Golf21]

6 hours ago, Varry_Hardon said:

From behind the back... and also from above, to see how early the shift is done (and thus intended, even earlier)... shows motion in a way we're not accustomed to

 

 

 

How much Rory turns his shoulders helps a good bit as well. 

[MonteScheinblum]

29 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Pros not only do less, they're more balanced as they do it. Neither of those things support your position.

There’s opinion based on empirical data and practical experience and understanding.  Then there’s opinion based on supposition from a superficial understanding.  It’s like a virgin who has memorized Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus telling Wilt Chamberlain he has a poor understanding on how to score with women.

[Shilgy]

50 minutes ago, Ajgaguy83 said:

Can someone direct me to the post?

C’mon…it’s the 8th thread in this forum.

 

 

 

[PracticeSwinger]

4 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

How much Rory turns his shoulders helps a good bit as well. 

That’s fore sure! I love the angle to watch details; how his shoulders line is open to his feet line at address, later wrist set, lead wrist going into extension + radial-ish in his backswing, his trademark lead hip sinking / pressing into the ground… a few interesting moves that are not tied up to modern ‘vanilla’ instructions 

[MPStrat]

2 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

There’s opinion based on empirical data and practical experience and understanding.  Then there’s opinion based on supposition from a superficial understanding.  It’s like a virgin who has memorized Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus telling Wilt Chamberlain he has a poor understanding on how to score with women.

 

😂 

“Any understanding other than my own and my friends is impractical and superficial” 

[tthomasgolfer605]

There's actually a reason people turn too flat. The inner ear keeps us balanced with the horizon. I learned in flight school that having instruments in the cockpit is important when flying into the clouds or at night because you can get disoriented. Lots of crashes happened from pilots receiving messages from their inner ear and brain that they are in a different attitude than they actually are because you lose reference to the horizon. If you turn perpendicular to your spine angle it may seem easy standing straight up, but once your into your actual setup, your brain senses you are off balance and will try to correct you by standing up, (turning too flat). 

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

“Any understanding other than my own and my friends is impractical and superficial” 

Nah, bud. That's not what he's saying.

[Valtiel]

44 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

 

😂 

“Any understanding other than my own and my friends is impractical and superficial” 

Please do not derail another one of these threads with senseless bickering where you turn this into a "me vs. them" pillow fight because it gets REALLY old and boring. The moment you get pushback you dig in against experienced and qualified instructors and seemingly don't even consider trying to find the common understanding, like this:
 

Quote

...Ams might be measured to do “more” in the backswing, but that “more” is physically easier to perform from a physical effort standpoint

   
I'd disagree because while those things are often more physically *intuitive*, which is most of what you're arguing I think, it most certainly isn't physically "easier" because it implies the correct things are physically more difficult, which they almost never are unless you're trying to get someone tilting like DJ. *Mentally* these things are absolutely more difficult because ingraining new movement patterns is a PITA, but in the context of what is being said in the thread regarding physical limitations....it isn't an easier vs. harder debate. Pros work *smarter* in the backswing, not more, and the average player works "dumber" AND more. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Valtiel

[MPStrat]

25 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

The moment you get pushback you dig in 

I enjoy pushback as long as it’s civil and somewhat respectful. I am always respectful to other posters even if I disagree with them I don’t insult them. I don’t enjoy pushback that is rude and condescending. I would not have pointed it out if there wasn’t a post directed at me telling me that my understanding is impractical and superficial. This type of behavior is why it has been hard to find a common understanding on some things. 

 

25 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

I'd disagree because while those things are often more physically *intuitive*, which is most of what you're arguing I think, it most certainly isn't physically "easier" because it implies the correct things are physically more difficult, which they almost never are unless you're trying to get someone tilting like DJ. *Mentally* these things are absolutely more difficult because ingraining new movement patterns is a PITA, but in the context of what is being said in the thread regarding physical limitations....it isn't an easier vs. harder debate. Pros work *smarter* in the backswing, not more, and the average play works "dumber" AND more. 

I agree that it’s mentally more difficult but it’s also physically much more difficult to turn while maintaining an inclination than it is to turn standing up. Which is one of the reasons it’s so common for amateurs to do exactly that in the backswing. It’s the path of least resistance. 

[Valtiel]

7 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I agree that it’s mentally more difficult but it’s also physically much more difficult to turn while maintaining an inclination than it is to turn standing up. Which is one of the reasons it’s so common for amateurs to do exactly that in the backswing. It’s the path of least resistance. 

Agreed, but i'd argue that is far more mental than physical. When folks are shown how to "stay down" it's virtually never a "oh wow I can't physically do that" due to some restriction or limitation, especially given that the "standing up" elements often goes hand in hand with the "left hip forward" incorrect pelvic move. Getting someone to move the hips more in line with how they should be plus maintaining more tilt in the backswing via whatever feel works for the player (stick on top of the head, left shoulder down etc etc) ends up revealing either a "oh wow that makes more sense now" or a "wow that feels weird, i'll need to practice that" and not some kind of Mandelbaum situation...

 

[MPStrat]

10 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Agreed, but i'd argue that is far more mental than physical. When folks are shown how to "stay down" it's virtually never a "oh wow I can't physically do that" due to some restriction or limitation, especially given that the "standing up" elements often goes hand in hand with the "left hip forward" incorrect pelvic move. Getting someone to move the hips more in line with how they should be plus maintaining more tilt in the backswing via whatever feel works for the player (stick on top of the head, left shoulder down etc etc) ends up revealing either a "oh wow that makes more sense now" or a "wow that feels weird, i'll need to practice that" and not some kind of Mandelbaum situation...

 

We agree that it’s not impossible for amateurs to turn with an inclination. My argument is not that it’s impossible but that it’s not physically easier than turning while standing up. It’s more difficult both mentally and physically.
 

I’m not suggesting that amateurs shouldn’t try to improve their backswings or that it’s an extremely difficult movement to make for a normal healthy person of a certain age. I’m saying that it’s physically easier to make the crappy backswing which is one of the reasons why so many ams do that. 

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Pros not only do less, they're more balanced as they do it. Neither of those things support your position.

Can GEARS measure total work performed in a given movement sequence?  That would seem to settle things one way or the other.

[Golf_Goof]

Thread needs more vids that correspond to the title 😉

 

 

[Albatross Dreamer]

9 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Please do not derail another one of these threads with senseless bickering where you turn this into a "me vs. them" pillow fight because it gets REALLY old and boring. The moment you get pushback you dig in against experienced and qualified instructors and seemingly don't even consider trying to find the common understanding, like this:
 

   
I'd disagree because while those things are often more physically *intuitive*, which is most of what you're arguing I think, it most certainly isn't physically "easier" because it implies the correct things are physically more difficult, which they almost never are unless you're trying to get someone tilting like DJ. *Mentally* these things are absolutely more difficult because ingraining new movement patterns is a PITA, but in the context of what is being said in the thread regarding physical limitations....it isn't an easier vs. harder debate. Pros work *smarter* in the backswing, not more, and the average player works "dumber" AND more. 

From my perspective at least neither side seems to really be helping the situation. Just keep saying the same things over and over to each other. Personally I think they just need to get a room since there's a fine line between hate and love.

 

The point you're talking about is a perfect example. I think what MPStrat is saying is the stand up move in the backswing that ams make is easier from a mechanical work position, which I'd argue is true. However, that is a poor position to get back to the ball so they end up doing substantially more work on the downswing and therefore their total effort over the entire swing is higher. It's like snapping a rubber band vs trying to fling a loose one. Tightening the rubber band takes more work, but then it goes further and faster with much less effort. Then the other side is saying no no no, pros do less work because they get into the proper position in the backswing which makes the swing much easier.

 

They're saying the same thing (in this case at least), but have to argue since it's as natural as getting out of bed in the morning. Some might say it's the path of least resistance. 😉