Ballard vs Flick 1998 Debate

[rondo01]

This was just posted on YouTube a few days ago and it is just fascinating. So many nuggets of current debate are packed into this hr+ long video and viewing it today with some knowledge of 3d info and the new ball flight laws is just superb. It’s also wonderful to see two folks go at it in a respectful way, and I could listen to Ballard talk all day. Thought many of y’all would enjoy!

 

 

[Nels55]

Thanks for posting this!  I got through about 20 minutes of it so far.  It is a long one.  Flick starting out saying that Jimmy could only teach advanced players was not a real smart thing to do.  

 

I think that both are right and both are wrong though Flick saying that swings are unique to the individual is correct imho.  For instance I don't think that Ballard's swing will work very well for someone who is front post or upper core or otherwise not suited to the movements he prescribes.  Probably would not work very well for Earnest Jones as he only had one leg.  

 

Both were successful teachers it would be interesting to know who's students did better.  No way to measure that...

[Chunkitgood]

I don’t know why people still debate this, the science is in.  It was in in 1960.

[Nels55]

18 minutes ago, Chunkitgood said:

I don’t know why people still debate this, the science is in.  It was in in 1960.

 

[naval2006]

You can never be the chairperson of a golf teaching summit with such a surname 😮

[KD1]

I thoroughly enjoyed that! Thank you for sharing.

 

No matter which side of the spectrum you subscribe to I'd say Jimmy came out on top. He's clearly the master debater.

[Boise59]

Didn't know Jimmy had taken lessons from Johnny Revolta.....

[jc4birdie]

Enjoyed the debate, but it did give me pause regarding something I've been thinking about ever since I started taking lessons from a 30 yr associate of, ironically, Jim Hardy.

 

And that's this.  I don't think ANY of these top instructors teach a different swing at the core; they all have unique views on HOW to teach, and they call/market the same techniques by their own nomenclature to carve out an identity (Ballard and "connection", for example). Let me explain how I came to this.

 

I took lessons from both Ballard (online), and a disciple of his when I got serious about becoming better than a mid- to high 80s guy.  Totally immersed myself in all JB material, as well.  Improved a good deal applying his fundamentals, but did tinker too much & developed a swing that was too much in-to-out.  Kinda plateau at the 12 hdcp level, then I met a Level 2 Hardy guy who moved over to the club at which I practice.

 

So long story short, learned the 1-plane Plane Truth principles (my swing is naturally rounded), and that all swings have to go inside-to-inside.  Down to an 8.5 index, and have a much better understanding of my swing and my game.

 

But, ya know, in looking back, as crazy as it may sound, what Ballard WANTED me to do isn't very different, but I had a few key misunderstandings based on how he communicated. Both he and PT want the left arm down and in tight to the body on the downswing, so as to allow the right hand/arm/side to throw the club thru the ball.  But he always talked about the "down the line of flight", which I interpreted to mean SWING DOWN THE LINE.  But he never really SAID that; I just never really considered it.  What PT calls "inner circle and outer circle", that's just Ballard alluding to the "inner force" & the "outer force".

 

So, you probably couldn't find two camps you'd think from written material would be farther apart than Plane Truth & Jimmy Ballard, philosophically.  But having learned from both, there's WAY MORE key similarities than key differences.  The key, I've learned, is to ID the correct teaching style and clarity of communication FOR YOU in instruction.  For example, Ballard and his team pooh-poohed "feels", constantly saying "feels fool ya", which is correct...but my PT guy has learned that USING feels to ingrain a correct move that feels nothing like it actually is (see the swing videos) is of great value TO ME in learning concepts.

 

Bottomline, all good instructors can help you.  And mostly w/ very similar concepts.  But you gotta find the guy that works FOR YOU.

[iacas]

It was amusing, but they also just talked past each other a bit. They're both right - you can't swing without the hands and you can't swing without the body, either. They're arguing (politely, funnily) about feels, almost… not really a difference in philosophy about how you actually swing.

 

It was amusing, though, and I don't regret the time it took to watch.

[mikpga]

Forgot about this debate…

 

Watched it last night…

 

Pretty cool to see where the “Instruction Industry” is now a days…

 

[Divot License]

I would love to see more of these sort of "debates" with the modern-day teachers. 

 

My concern is that it wouldn't this civil or professional between both parties. 

[iacas]

55 minutes ago, Divot License said:

I would love to see more of these sort of "debates" with the modern-day teachers. 

 

My concern is that it wouldn't this civil or professional between both parties. 

 

If online, maybe not.

 

In person, I think you'd be surprised at how many of the more "vocal" guys turn into church mice. 😛 

[Divot License]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

In person, I think you'd be surprised at how many of the more "vocal" guys turn into church mice. 😛 

 

Very true, however personally I wouldn't be interested in even hearing what some of those "vocal" guys even have to say. 

[golftech]

On 11/15/2023 at 4:51 PM, rondo01 said:

This was just posted on YouTube a few days ago and it is just fascinating. So many nuggets of current debate are packed into this hr+ long video and viewing it today with some knowledge of 3d info and the new ball flight laws is just superb. It’s also wonderful to see two folks go at it in a respectful way, and I could listen to Ballard talk all day. Thought many of y’all would enjoy!

 

 

would love to see this if anyone has the video

[Boise59]

Kind of interesting it keeps getting put on You Tube then taken off.

 

Wonder if the PGA of America has anything to do with that.