90° of Clubface Rotation in a relatively short span

[Hilts1969]

Can leftytoneverrighty start a bounce thread so those who want to discuss the thread title don't lose the will to live.

 

In fact I think a R2L2 or R2D2 whatever it is should just start his own thread. 

 

Golf my way, the only way and my battles with the dark side

[Valtiel]

[KMeloney]

12 hours ago, Brian Manzella said:

Geez....

 

What a thread.

 

I put up a graphic with 4 FAMOUS GOLFERS eerily doing the exact same thing through the ball with the clubface, something that is definitely NOT what is popular on social media, and you get THIS thread. Yikes!

 

I'll be happy to go on the air live with anyone to discuss any of this.

 

In the meantime, here is a video on some of what what talked about somewhere in the thread (among other places):

 

 

 

Brian,

 

Are you aware of the video(s?) that AMG did regarding where the pros (vs ams) generate the fastest hand speed in their downswings? The video showed that the pros hands are moving fastest much earlier in the downswing (somewhere just below shoulder height, maybe?), which I considered to be a "debunking" of the idea that anyone lets their hands/arms just "fall" in the downswing (even though I'm not sure that was the point of the video). Is that a logical conclusion to draw from that video, or do you have to measure the force(s) on the shaft to determine these things?

 

It seems to me that you can only apply speed to the club if you're also applying a measurable force to it, but what do I know?

[Brian Manzella]

You are talking kinematics there with the AMG video. 

 

As far as the kinetics involved in hand speed ramping up to its peak, mid downswing, that is accomplished primarily with GAMMA FORCE (force along the shaft) which, again, I wasn't talking about in the video.

 

We know exactly what's happening to the club. Club kinetics is relatively easy for Dr. Nesbit.

[KMeloney]

(double post)

Edited January 11 by KMeloney

[KMeloney]

(triple post! dang!)

Edited January 11 by KMeloney

[cav5]

16 hours ago, Shilgy said:

I get all that…you missed the point I guess.  When you and R2L say use the bounce and hit pitches like a bunker shot you the face doesn’t hit the ball?

 

Thats what was said that I replied to.  If you two want to “teach” you need to be precise.

 

Yes you hit the ball lol. Club just hits earth first.

[johnrobison]

On 1/10/2024 at 6:26 AM, Righty to Lefty said:

Absolutely...I am a very fast twitch athlete so I have to be very patient because my hips fire very aggressively because of my baseball days so if I stop the handle end of the club too early I will re route it and pull the shot so I don't even try to assist the momentum of the club until it is a few inches from impact.

 

What is being misunderstood is the thought you will be able to visibly see the club fall straight down, well you would if there was no rotation, but under rotation the club will fall back onto the plane line and then go strike the ball.  Once again this is a topic that I have discussed with my buddies for years now thus I have a video that I made discussing this very topic. My upper body is very passive until very late in my swing motion: 

Gotcha. Like many golfers, the feeling you have is that your arms and hands aren't doing anything until very late. The truth however, and quite evidently so from the video, is that you're applying a whole bunch of force to the club VERY early on. Your lead arm is moving down your chest and your hands are moving away from your trail shoulder at a MUCH higher rate than gravitational pull. Also much faster than your rotation or you'd never have the separation. Despite what you feel - and you should feel whatever works for you - that's not what's happening. Not even close.

 

As so many others have said, you're prescribing feels to everyone that work for you as though they're absolutes. They're not absolutes and they're not even facts (and, FWIW, I've known 2 very highly accomplished instructors that make the same mistake). You've done so on a number of topics and this one is just the latest. I sincerely appreciate your polite and civil responses to everyone's piling on. And I always have much respect for people who don't hide behind internet anonymity and will stand behind what they say, "face-to-face". But understand that there's a reason for the piling on and you'd do yourself a favor to step back and consider that you have your facts wrong, despite whether they work for you.

[Righty to Lefty]

On 1/10/2024 at 6:26 PM, iacas said:

 

Real apparently isn't even real.

 

 

That is not hitting the ground behind the ball, let alone 6" behind the ball.

 

 

a) He's said he was a five as a righty, then became a 5 as a lefty. Not that he's concurrently a 5.

b) A 5 isn't "great."

c) If it took someone six years to learn to play golf righty, then six months as a lefty… part of that is they haven't forgotten all of what they learned as a righty.

d) etc.

 

 

No, he still has 15° or so of shaft lean at impact.

 

 

Oh boy.

 

 

Here's the thing: a lot of what he says is perfectly understandable. It "makes sense" in the "do you understand what these words in this order mean."

 

All too often, he's quite literally dead wrong. He says things that are factually untrue, inaccurate, false. His understanding of physics and biomechanics are way, way off. Feel ain't real, and yet he hasn't learned this lesson. He doesn't understand that how you swing, how you move, is what determines how you arrive at impact. Etc.

 

But mostly, the biggest problem I have, and many have, is that we can show him that he's wrong, and he just keeps on. He ignores the posts, or just tells you that it doesn't work for him or something (facts or physics or math don't work for him?)… etc.

 

It's ridiculous. Kyle Berkshire is FIRING as many muscles as he can the entire downswing. He's not waiting until the club gets to waist height before he tries to move the club. That's laughable.

 

This topic is not about wedge shots or bounce. Stop talking about it. It's off topic.

 

 

 

If he's "good" what's a +2.4 or a +3 or someone like @MonteScheinblum who not only teaches golf, but played/plays it at a very, very high level (not to mention having massive success at long drive stuff)?

 

 

Nah, it's still harder. Significantly so. This guy has been a 5 lefty for over a decade. He's never gotten below a 5? If he had, we'd have heard about it.

 

Again, the biggest issue I and a few others here have with AJ is that he literally says things that are factually incorrect. They're "wrong." They're false. Facts, not things about which you can "agree" or "disagree" — but actual facts.

 

Arranging your body so you achieve some sort of impact led to him having his ball position off his back foot with a fairway wood.

Hey put your lil lines on this one and tell me where I begin to engage the turf as this is an overhead view of me hitting the shot. 

 

You are flat out wrong when you say that I am hitting ball first and on that wedge shot on course I don't have the face wide open but only slightly open so the club is much closer to the ball but I am still engaging the turf prior to the ball. That is precisely why I had that particular shot filmed because I wanted to see what would happen when I intentionally hit the trailing edge on the ground behind the ball.  It isn't even possible to hit ball first with a C3i wedge if the face is open even a small amount cause you will skull it because the leading edge rapidly gets up in the air. The more I open the face the further I put the club behind the ball so that it has time to square up to the target line without me having to flip my hands at it like Hovland has to.  It is what it is.  

 

C3i wedge in square position: 

 

C3i wedge Open slightly: 

 

C3i wedge open fully: 

 

Video on wedge play and why bounce is your friend: 

 

Edited January 12 by Righty to Lefty

[Righty to Lefty]

4 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

Gotcha. Like many golfers, the feeling you have is that your arms and hands aren't doing anything until very late. The truth however, and quite evidently so from the video, is that you're applying a whole bunch of force to the club VERY early on. Your lead arm is moving down your chest and your hands are moving away from your trail shoulder at a MUCH higher rate than gravitational pull. Also much faster than your rotation or you'd never have the separation. Despite what you feel - and you should feel whatever works for you - that's not what's happening. Not even close.

 

As so many others have said, you're prescribing feels to everyone that work for you as though they're absolutes. They're not absolutes and they're not even facts (and, FWIW, I've known 2 very highly accomplished instructors that make the same mistake). You've done so on a number of topics and this one is just the latest. I sincerely appreciate your polite and civil responses to everyone's piling on. And I always have much respect for people who don't hide behind internet anonymity and will stand behind what they say, "face-to-face". But understand that there's a reason for the piling on and you'd do yourself a favor to step back and consider that you have your facts wrong, despite whether they work for you.

I'm tired if typing so I am giving video responses now!! 

 

 

[JayMas]

It's a carpet, so of course you can hit 6 inches behind the ball coming in shallow and carry the club pretty seamlessly to impact haha. People hit behind the ball on mats all the time and the result is not terrible. If you did that on a fairway, you'd chunk the s*** out of it, even with a lot of bounce and the flight certainly would not be some high, floppy situation. And the sound would be completely different. You're not even hitting as far behind the ball as you think on the carpet either.

 

And also, the course video literally shows you hitting the ball first.

 

Anyway, that's all from me. If we're at the point where you're just stubbornly pretending what you put on video isn't real, there is no discussion to be had.

 

Thanks for the videos @Brian Manzella

Edited January 11 by JayMas

[Golfbeat]

12 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I'm tired if typing so I am giving video responses now!! 

 

 

 

 

Jon Rahm using the gravity drop.

 

 

[johnrobison]

10 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I'm tired if typing so I am giving video responses now!! 

 

 

All that you've shown in that video is that you can apply force in different directions. Again, you moved the club faster than the Earth's force of gravity can. You HAD to apply force. No other way.

[getitdaily]

27 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I'm tired if typing so I am giving video responses now!! 

 

 

I agree, typing out responses is too cumbersome. I made a video response too.

 

 

Not trying to he mean. Just thought the application of this snippet was perfect. 

Edited January 11 by getitdaily

[Righty to Lefty]

4 minutes ago, JayMas said:

It's a carpet, so of course you can hit 6 inches behind the ball coming in shallow and carry the club pretty seamlessly to impact haha. People hit behind the ball on mats all the time and the result is not terrible. If you did that on a fairway, you'd chunk the s*** out of it, even with a lot of bounce and the flight certainly would not be some high, floppy situation. And the sound would be completely different.

 

And also, the video literally shows you hitting the ball first.

 

Anyway, that's all from me. If we're at the point where you're just stubbornly pretending what you put on video isn't real, there is no discussion to be had.

 

Thanks for the videos @Brian Manzella

I have tested the shot off the tightest lies and off of the soggiest lies and it worked in all scenarios.  @cav5 saw me hit the shot multiple times in person  from all kinds of lies and my carpet is maybe a half inch tall so it is exactly like hitting the shot off a fairway.  What you are missing is that using the bounce properly pretty much completely eliminates chunking the shot as that is what it is there for.  I also showed pics and a video of my wedges with the bounce engaged and there is no way I can hit a shot ball first with the leading edge that high off the ground as it is flat out not possible.  Did you go out and test and come back with your findings?  If I didn't have 5 inches of snow on the ground I would go out and make videos in any scenario you'd like and I assure you that bounce is your friend in all of them. 

 

@johnrobison

There is no pulling the trail arm is flexing and then extending while the body is rotating. 

 

 

 

[Righty to Lefty]

2 hours ago, Golfbeat said:

 

 

Jon Rahm using the gravity drop.

 

 

Rahm's lead arm at the top of his backswing is just above parallel to the ground. He is already just about in the zone to where he can apply max leverage to the handle end of the club . He doesn't have to be patient for long so that his hips can get out in front and lead because his back swing is so short but he has to be patient long enough to allow his hips to get out in front. Much less can go wrong in his swing with his back swing being so short. 

 

This guy has to be way more patient at the complete other end of the spectrum: 

 

Edited January 11 by Righty to Lefty

[JayMas]

15 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I have tested the shot off the tightest lies and off of the soggiest lies and it worked in all scenarios.  @cav5 saw me hit the shot multiple times in person  from all kinds of lies and my carpet is maybe a half inch tall so it is exactly like hitting the shot off a fairway.  What you are missing is that using the bounce properly pretty much completely eliminates chunking the shot as that is what it is there for.  I also showed pics and a video of my wedges with the bounce engaged and there is no way I can hit a shot ball first with the leading edge that high off the ground as it is flat out not possible.  Did you go out and test and come back with your findings?  If I didn't have 5 inches of snow on the ground I would go out and make videos in any scenario you'd like and I assure you that bounce is your friend in all of them. 

 

@johnrobison

There is no pulling the trail arm is flexing and then extending while the body is rotating. 

 

 

 

I'm sure you have, and I'm sure your intent is to hit behind the ball.

 

None of that changes the fact that the video on the course shows you contacting the ball first, regardless of your intent.

 

And if you think your carpet is the same as a fairway because of the thread length...I don't know what to tell you. Is your carpet built on dirt and sod?

 

Exposing bounce will reduce the actual "chunk" dig type of outcome. But even in a high bounce situation if you make contact 6 inches behind the ball, you will hit it fat, might not make the ground explode, but the club will skid, reduce speed, lessen momentum, change direction etc., and maybe you get to the ball...but it will absolutely not fly like your on-course video showed, nor will it produce that sound.

[JayMas]

29 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I have tested the shot off the tightest lies and off of the soggiest lies and it worked in all scenarios.  @cav5 saw me hit the shot multiple times in person  from all kinds of lies and my carpet is maybe a half inch tall so it is exactly like hitting the shot off a fairway.  What you are missing is that using the bounce properly pretty much completely eliminates chunking the shot as that is what it is there for.  I also showed pics and a video of my wedges with the bounce engaged and there is no way I can hit a shot ball first with the leading edge that high off the ground as it is flat out not possible.  Did you go out and test and come back with your findings?  If I didn't have 5 inches of snow on the ground I would go out and make videos in any scenario you'd like and I assure you that bounce is your friend in all of them. 

 

@johnrobison

There is no pulling the trail arm is flexing and then extending while the body is rotating. 

 

 

 

Honest question: Did you actually watch the Cogorno video or just read the video title?

 

Because if you watched, you'd know that the video title is just them trying to map to the dumb stuff people think or the way bad golf marketing has termed things forever and the actual substance of the video is different.

 

The first half is about reducing tension in the arms, which is great! Overly tense is bad. The 2nd half or even right in the middle is the part you'll love the most, from about 7 minutes in "setup passive, backswing, still kind of passive, "when I'm starting my downswing that's where there is going to be some action in the arms." And Cogorno's guest put it well, you need to put a force into the club in transition for it to accelerate when it needs to. Nothing, absolutely nothing about letting it drop, gravity, etc. In fact, what was said could not be more opposite of what you're trying to stan for.

Sorry Mr. Gravity, even the content you try to post doesn't support you.

Edited January 11 by JayMas

[johnrobison]

23 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

There is no pulling the trail arm is flexing and then extending while the body is rotating. 

Latter part, true. First part, not.

Yes, the trail arm is flexing then extending. And that extending is applying a force along the shaft of the club. A pulling force.

Same argument as before... Just because Eric feels like his arms are "passive" and not doing work doesn't make it so. He is most definitely applying force to the club from the top. You continue to argue against what's really happening by describing how things feel. 

 

You have proven nothing by repeating the same thing - feels - over and over. Yet, the myriad data that's come from measurements taken by MacKenzie, Nesbit and others prove conclusively what actually happens.

[swh0507]

26 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I have tested the shot off the tightest lies and off of the soggiest lies and it worked in all scenarios.  @cav5 saw me hit the shot multiple times in person  from all kinds of lies and my carpet is maybe a half inch tall so it is exactly like hitting the shot off a fairway.  What you are missing is that using the bounce properly pretty much completely eliminates chunking the shot as that is what it is there for.  I also showed pics and a video of my wedges with the bounce engaged and there is no way I can hit a shot ball first with the leading edge that high off the ground as it is flat out not possible.  Did you go out and test and come back with your findings?  If I didn't have 5 inches of snow on the ground I would go out and make videos in any scenario you'd like and I assure you that bounce is your friend in all of them. 

 

@johnrobison

There is no pulling the trail arm is flexing and then extending while the body is rotating. 

 

 

 

Trevor, the coach in the 2nd video, is my coach. Currently we are working on sequencing, which for me means speeding my arms up and getting them moving earlier. The exact opposite of what he is teaching here. It's almost as if every individual had different issues, needs, feels etc.!!!!!!!! /s

 

A good coach, which Trevor is, will adjust to the student and their needs. Not give blanket BS that works for them.

 

Funny how the name of the video is "How to turn your arms off" . According to you, the video title should be  EVERY PERSON IN THE WORLD SHOULD DO THIS AND THIS WORKS FOR EVERYONE!!! 

[JayMas]

6 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

Latter part, true. First part, not.

Yes, the trail arm is flexing then extending. And that extending is applying a force along the shaft of the club. A pulling force.

Same argument as before... Just because Eric feels like his arms are "passive" and not doing work doesn't make it so. He is most definitely applying force to the club from the top. You continue to argue against what's really happening by describing how things feel. 

 

You have proven nothing by repeating the same thing - feels - over and over. Yet, the myriad data that's come from measurements taken by MacKenzie, Nesbit and others prove conclusively what actually happens.

Cogorno literally says, the transition is where the arms really start to do something and his guest agreed. The passive thing was much more about relieving tension in setup and backswing.

Edited January 11 by JayMas

[Golfbeat]

28 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

where he can apply max leverage to the handle end of the club

 

How is this passive or using gravity by itself?

 

I am going to stop beating this dead horse.

Edited January 11 by Golfbeat

[Zitlow]

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Rahm's lead arm at the top of his backswing is just above parallel to the ground. He is already just about in the zone to where he can apply max leverage to the handle end of the club . He doesn't have to be patient for long so that his hips can get out in front and lead because his back swing is so short but he has to be patient long enough to all his hips to get out in front. Much less can go wrong in his swing with his back swing being so short. 

 

This guy has to be way more patient at the complete other end of the spectrum: 

 

 

Golf is a lot easier when the shaft and face are swung on the inclined plane. 

[cav5]

15 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Real apparently isn't even real.

 

 

That is not hitting the ground behind the ball, let alone 6" behind the ball.

 

 

a) He's said he was a five as a righty, then became a 5 as a lefty. Not that he's concurrently a 5.

b) A 5 isn't "great."

c) If it took someone six years to learn to play golf righty, then six months as a lefty… part of that is they haven't forgotten all of what they learned as a righty.

d) etc.

 

 

No, he still has 15° or so of shaft lean at impact.

 

 

Oh boy.

 

 

Here's the thing: a lot of what he says is perfectly understandable. It "makes sense" in the "do you understand what these words in this order mean."

 

All too often, he's quite literally dead wrong. He says things that are factually untrue, inaccurate, false. His understanding of physics and biomechanics are way, way off. Feel ain't real, and yet he hasn't learned this lesson. He doesn't understand that how you swing, how you move, is what determines how you arrive at impact. Etc.

 

But mostly, the biggest problem I have, and many have, is that we can show him that he's wrong, and he just keeps on. He ignores the posts, or just tells you that it doesn't work for him or something (facts or physics or math don't work for him?)… etc.

 

It's ridiculous. Kyle Berkshire is FIRING as many muscles as he can the entire downswing. He's not waiting until the club gets to waist height before he tries to move the club. That's laughable.

 

This topic is not about wedge shots or bounce. Stop talking about it. It's off topic.

 

 

 

If he's "good" what's a +2.4 or a +3 or someone like @MonteScheinblum who not only teaches golf, but played/plays it at a very, very high level (not to mention having massive success at long drive stuff)?

 

 

Nah, it's still harder. Significantly so. This guy has been a 5 lefty for over a decade. He's never gotten below a 5? If he had, we'd have heard about it.

 

Again, the biggest issue I and a few others here have with AJ is that he literally says things that are factually incorrect. They're "wrong." They're false. Facts, not things about which you can "agree" or "disagree" — but actual facts.

 

Arranging your body so you achieve some sort of impact led to him having his ball position off his back foot with a fairway wood.

 

You are not hitting 6in behind the ball on every shot. He's clearly a bit behind the ball in that pic. Depending on the yardage, loft, and face angle you need experiment with it.

 

A real 5 is pretty good for someone that figured it out without being decent as a teenager. I can count on one hand how many people I know like that. He shot 80 with me on a coastal NE course blowing his first time with multiple lost balls.

 

Give me ten years I'll never be a 5 lefty lol

 

Not that wild for people in any profession to have different, better, or worse ideas than others and be less "successful." Hovlands job is to know what to do to score. I was very sick for years and saw every top doc in america. Only one that helped me had a fraction of their credentials.

 

As for lean I think it's very hard to measure as it can be forward, away, and left/right of the actual flight, as well of the design makeup of a wedge sits different than less lofted clubs. The main piece I think to grasp is that when it touches turf it must equal out and there's more room for error with having more bounce than you need without adding risk of skulling all while hitting equally good shots for anything less than a full swing. Any shot hit down on without a folding divot had enough bounce applied.

 

Biomechanics wise I don't know if anyone yet has properly identified slash measured the correct things or measured the right things correctly. I have some baseline knowledge as I worked with Chris Welch of zenolink who was behind the scenes with foley during tigers time and AKs coach's coach for a while. My measured sequence would improve with training overtime with NO ball, but didn't change while the ball was down. For me I think all you need to know on that front is in this picture of rory below. IMO everyone is much better operating and tinkering from a mindset of not over complicating feels into endgame conscious mechanics as that is opposite to what a feel is. Intention is there beforehand, so just go on that and try again.

 

Anyway not here to argue I want to get better just as much as anyone. I overcomplicate as much as anyone and could shoot 65 and 80 on the same weekend if I mismatch feels and intention. I've lost two club champ finals by literally trying to understand my swing the night before LOL.

 

[cav5]

1 hour ago, JayMas said:

Cogorno literally says, the transition is where the arms really start to do something and his guest agreed. The passive thing was much more about relieving tension in setup and backswing.

 

In my case feel wise, the doing something to me is telling my arms to do nothing.

[Simpsonia]

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I'm tired if typing so I am giving video responses now!! 

 

 

 

Let me put it this way. English as a language is imprecise to describe all of the individual components of a golf swing. "Pulling" as a word can describe a dozen different things at a dozen different points in the golf swing. Just because "Pulling" means a very specific thing (ie feel) to you, does not mean that it means the same thing to everyone else. Maybe once you realize that, you can start to see how not everything is absolute or black and white, and that you might just be miscommunicating with someone else due to you having different ideas of what "pulling" means. If you approach things that way, maybe you can start to find common ground. 

 

Btw this feel you described is a pretty common feel in golf instruction called the Justin Rose Drill. It works for many, but more importantly, does not work for everyone. 

[Brian Manzella]

There may be no hope.....

 

 

We have the answers to all of these questions....but....if you want to keep dealing with seems as if....there is nothing I can do about it.

[JayMas]

1 hour ago, cav5 said:

 

In my case feel wise, the doing something to me is telling my arms to do nothing.

Cogorno is talking about what's actually happening. The degree of which someone feels it is individual. He's saying that the arms are, in reality, more active in the transition/downswing than they are in the takeaway and at setup.

[Righty to Lefty]

11 hours ago, JayMas said:

I'm sure you have, and I'm sure your intent is to hit behind the ball.

 

None of that changes the fact that the video on the course shows you contacting the ball first, regardless of your intent.

 

And if you think your carpet is the same as a fairway because of the thread length...I don't know what to tell you. Is your carpet built on dirt and sod?

 

Exposing bounce will reduce the actual "chunk" dig type of outcome. But even in a high bounce situation if you make contact 6 inches behind the ball, you will hit it fat, might not make the ground explode, but the club will skid, reduce speed, lessen momentum, change direction etc., and maybe you get to the ball...but it will absolutely not fly like your on-course video showed, nor will it produce that sound.

Here you go...these are tour pros that are leading edge chipping and still engaging the turf behind the ball.  Tiger included: 

 

And another one: 

 

 

Let me know when you are finally convinced. 

[Righty to Lefty]

On 1/10/2024 at 7:47 PM, Brian Manzella said:

Geez....

 

What a thread.

 

I put up a graphic with 4 FAMOUS GOLFERS eerily doing the exact same thing through the ball with the clubface, something that is definitely NOT what is popular on social media, and you get THIS thread. Yikes!

 

I'll be happy to go on the air live with anyone to discuss any of this.

 

In the meantime, here is a video on some of what what talked about somewhere in the thread (among other places):

 

 

Much appreciated for that knowledge and I would like to go live and speak with you anytime you are available.