AMG: Side Bend Like A Major Champ - PROs vs AMs

[golferdude54]

The "swinging low and left" after impact along with "keeping the trail wrist bent" increases side bend and therefore unevenness of the shoulders to the spine/pelvis, which means herniated discs. Same for keeping your head behind the ball after impact.

 

Moving your head laterally forward towards the target, straightening the trail wrist, letting the right hand go over the left and bringing the club on a higher plane after impact evens out the shoulders. But 99% of golfers don't do that.

[PedronNiall]

Probably should throw these blasts from the past in their own thread as the old one is a mess with the forum update, but I'll put them here as they're helpful with achieving good side bend at impact without a lot of fuss. They also cover a lot of the why one should make it happen at address instead of chasing it in the downswing.

 

 

I believe this is the study Dan references in his video. Funny thing is even though Monte was just giving a quick demonstration, you can see him easily hitting around the measured 40-50* optimum range for pros at impact regarding the S-factor, or lead side shoulder angle relative to level, from the study.

 

Recurring lesson of the past few days this and the Padraig thread: chase causes instead of effects and golf like life gets a whole lot easier. Anyone who gets this down will laugh at how much simpler it becomes to turn & burn back and through the ball.

[MonteScheinblum]

The was 15 years and 50 pounds ago.  That’s pretty good considering I didn’t know anything at the time.

[smoothie4896]

@MonteScheinblum

 

I had a lesson a while back, very good and respected instructed.  He gave me a drill that would help a few issues I had.  He had me put an alignment stick under my trail armpit, then in the backswing I would stop my lead arm when it hit the stick and try to hold it on that stick as long as I could on the down swing.  This was to help with my arm over run, arms lifting and also add some tilt on down swing.  He said if done right, it should also feel like your squatting in the down swing.  I relate that feel to your zipper away drill that I've used for years and really resonated with my swing.

 

My question is, can I over do the tilt if I try to keep my lead forearm on the alignment stick on the way down?  I like that drill as its great for keep my arms from lifting and going too far, but I also have a crap back, don't want to add too much right bend either.  Also, if you concentrate on the Zipper Away feel and keeping the hips back, can that be overdone and add too much right tilt?  And, if your getting tilt from your pelvis being tilted and your hips rotating and straight (not a bent spine), is that what people should be shooting for, that's what i got from the example in this video, way off?

 

I just watch this video and am hesitant with a bad back, don't want to be practicing something if its going to lead to back issues. 

Edited March 26 by smoothie4896
addition

[Trippels]

4 minutes ago, smoothie4896 said:

@MonteScheinblum

 

I had a lesson a while back, very good and respected instructed.  He gave me a drill that would help a few issues I had.  He had me put an alignment stick under my trail armpit, then in the backswing I would stop my lead arm when it hit the stick and try to hold it on that stick as long as I could on the down swing.  This was to help with my arm over run, arms lifting and also add some tilt on down swing.  He said if done right, it should also feel like your squatting in the down swing.  I relate that feel to your zipper away drill that I've used for years and really resonated with my swing.

 

My question is, can I over do the tilt if I try to keep my lead forearm on the alignment stick on the way down?  I like that drill as its great for keep my arms from lifting and going too far, but I also have a crap back, don't want to add too much right bend either.  Also, if you concentrate on the Zipper Away feel and keeping the hips back, can that be overdone and add too much right tilt?  I just watch this video and am hesitant with a bad back, don't want to be practicing something if its going to lead to back issues.

Was the lesson with Dan?

 

I got the same drill pretty much, I can't really answer your question, but I know the AMG guys are not fans of that drill usually. 

[smoothie4896]

Just now, Trippels said:

Was the lesson with Dan?

 

I got the same drill pretty much, I can't really answer your question, but I know the AMG guys are not fans of that drill usually. 

Yes.  Have only had two lessons in the last 15 years.  The lesson with Dan was about two years ago (gave me that drill) then had one with Monte end of last year.  

[Trippels]

43 minutes ago, smoothie4896 said:

Yes.  Have only had two lessons in the last 15 years.  The lesson with Dan was about two years ago (gave me that drill) then had one with Monte end of last year.  

He really likes that drill clearly. And side bend, his advice to me for the drill was to feel the trail shoulder dropping straight down first move down. Which even to his own admittance isn't congruent to Monte's usual swing philosophy, and it certainly doesn't seem to match up with what you see in this AMG video, even as a feel.

I've got no authority to say what drill is good or bad though.

[virtuoso]

10 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

The was 15 years and 50 pounds ago.  That’s pretty good considering I didn’t know anything at the time.

Yeah, you’re basically just saying to set the box of the torso at address, and then respect the box while moving.

 

Of course, that’s too simple until AMG gives a super sophisticated skeleton movement sequence to support it. Then we are back at the same place, all nodding our heads in agreement about just staying in the box.

 

Not mocking AMG—I love their stuff—just saying: wise observations of the past lose their sexiness, and it takes fancy screens and explanations to get everyone back on-board with simple truth from the olden times.

 

Another example would be “hitting against a firm left side”=left leg braking to create more vertical force. Vertical force is sexier.

[swh0507]

17 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

My worst habit in my swing is early right tilt in transition which then switches off my rotation and I get stuck under plane and have more side bend at impact than rotation.

 

For an instructor to tell me to think Niemann is terrible on multiple levels.

Ok, I don't know you, your swing issues or what the instructor was trying to do. I am just saying context is important.

 

Many of us need to feel like we are doing extreme changes just to get a slight change.  I wouldn't run from an instructor who told me to FEEL like Niemen (if we were working on increasing side bend). I would run if the end goal was to BE Niemen. 

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, swh0507 said:

Ok, I don't know you, your swing issues or what the instructor was trying to do. I am just saying context is important.

 

Many of us need to feel like we are doing extreme changes just to get a slight change.  I wouldn't run from an instructor who told me to FEEL like Niemen (if we were working on increasing side bend). I would run if the end goal was to BE Niemen. 

Be careful with exaggeration drills is always my advice, especially when I give them.

[Duffer Mark]

 @Trippels @smoothie4896 I got the same drill. I got to where I can do it pretty well, but it doesn't always translate into my actual golf swing. 

[MK7Golf21]

1 hour ago, swh0507 said:

Ok, I don't know you, your swing issues or what the instructor was trying to do. I am just saying context is important.

 

Many of us need to feel like we are doing extreme changes just to get a slight change.  I wouldn't run from an instructor who told me to FEEL like Niemen (if we were working on increasing side bend). I would run if the end goal was to BE Niemen. 

 

I'm not sure the feeling of your face on the ground in side bend is good for anyone whether it's just a feel or not. 

[ALIF]

If you were to Google what my forum name is you would realize I have a spinal fusion. I had the same surgery Tiger Woods had. It's been over five years now. What I've realized is I will use the minimum amount of sidebend (right lateral bend) required in my golf swing to play good golf. The less right lateral bend my spine has during the golf swing, the better for my fusion long term. Monte's advice of avoiding the extremes is especially applicable in situations like mine were I inherently have some restriction in my mobility.

Edited March 26 by ALIF
typo

[phizzy30]

Just now, ALIF said:

If you were to Google what my forum name is you would realize I have a spinal fusion. I had the same surgery Tiger Woods had. It's been over five years now. What I've realized is I will use the minimum amount of sidebend (right lateral bend) required in my golf swing to play good golf. The less right lateral bend my spine has during the golf swing, the better for my fusion long term. Monte's advice of avoiding the extremes is especially applicable in situations like mine were I inherently have some restriction in my mobility.

I changed my swing as well.  I used to get quite a bit of side bend in my swing in an attempt to hit up on the ball thinking I would be able to generate more speed.  Bad move on my part.  I have 3 herniated discs in my back now from normal wear and tear and from ego lifting in the past.  I find that my revamped swing is much easier on the back while still being functional on most days, lol. 

[MonteScheinblum]

47 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

I changed my swing as well.  I used to get quite a bit of side bend in my swing in an attempt to hit up on the ball thinking I would be able to generate more speed.  Bad move on my part.  I have 3 herniated discs in my back now from normal wear and tear and from ego lifting in the past.  I find that my revamped swing is much easier on the back while still being functional on most days, lol. 

There should be a class action law suit against all the people that pushed the up 5 narrative.  Yes, a robot hits it farther up 5 than level.  However, most people lose speed when they hit up 5 because they can’t square the face/path/sweetspot/target more than up 1 or 2.

 

People always say the tour average is down 1 because they can afford to do that and still hit it far. Do the people that say that really think tour players stand on the range and say, “I generate enough speed, so I can give up distance to do this.”

 

Yea right…..They are finding the most efficient way to hit it far and straight and that’s around level.  To me the range is down 1 to up 2.  Chasing numbers on a chart is bad juju.

[GolfTurkey]

2 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

There should be a class action law suit against all the people that pushed the up 5 narrative.  

That TM up 5 chart combined with the Foresight low spin distance boost is horrible. It has so many people chasing up 5 with 2,000 spin

[GolfTurkey]

7 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Yeah, you’re basically just saying to set the box of the torso at address, and then respect the box while moving.

 

Of course, that’s too simple until AMG gives a super sophisticated skeleton movement sequence to support it. Then we are back at the same place, all nodding our heads in agreement about just staying in the box.

 

Not mocking AMG—I love their stuff—just saying: wise observations of the past lose their sexiness, and it takes fancy screens and explanations to get everyone back on-board with simple truth from the olden times.

 

Another example would be “hitting against a firm left side”=left leg braking to create more vertical force. Vertical force is sexier.

I guess you have to take following with a pinch of salt because of the source.

I heard Claude Harmon say on his podcast that it’s amazing how often the recommendation from the guys with force plates, 3D etc. after running someone through the full battery of tests is exactly the same as Butch after watching a few swings. 

[ALIF]

9 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

I guess you have to take following with a pinch of salt because of the source.

I heard Claude Harmon say on his podcast that it’s amazing how often the recommendation from the guys with force plates, 3D etc. after running someone through the full battery of tests is exactly the same as Butch after watching a few swings. 

I guess some things just never change.

[slytown]

10 hours ago, smoothie4896 said:

@MonteScheinblum

 

I had a lesson a while back, very good and respected instructed.  He gave me a drill that would help a few issues I had.  He had me put an alignment stick under my trail armpit, then in the backswing I would stop my lead arm when it hit the stick and try to hold it on that stick as long as I could on the down swing.  This was to help with my arm over run, arms lifting and also add some tilt on down swing.  He said if done right, it should also feel like your squatting in the down swing.  I relate that feel to your zipper away drill that I've used for years and really resonated with my swing.

 

My question is, can I over do the tilt if I try to keep my lead forearm on the alignment stick on the way down?  I like that drill as its great for keep my arms from lifting and going too far, but I also have a crap back, don't want to add too much right bend either.  Also, if you concentrate on the Zipper Away feel and keeping the hips back, can that be overdone and add too much right tilt?  And, if your getting tilt from your pelvis being tilted and your hips rotating and straight (not a bent spine), is that what people should be shooting for, that's what i got from the example in this video, way off?

 

I just watch this video and am hesitant with a bad back, don't want to be practicing something if its going to lead to back issues. 

 

Side bend is ok IF you don't have horizontal hips at impact. THAT's the reason Willy Z had back problems and Niemann will. You can have open hips like the pros if that type of impact is repeatable for you, you just need to have enough extension of the legs and tilt of the hips to take the pressure off your back. Fred Couples STILL has tons of side bend and open hips.

 

However, I think it's simply a type of impact. Plenty of people can play well with minimal side bend and more of a hand release. It's certainly more sustainable.

[Soloman1]

45 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

I guess you have to take following with a pinch of salt because of the source.

I heard Claude Harmon say on his podcast that it’s amazing how often the recommendation from the guys with force plates, 3D etc. after running someone through the full battery of tests is exactly the same as Butch after watching a few swings. 

 

many times it's used to validate info for the player with their own eyes.

sometimes the better the player, the more skeptical they are of anyone not named harmon.

 

like a doc simply looking at someone's arm and saying they have hairline fracture. maybe so, but an x-ray helps...

Edited March 26 by Soloman1

[GolfTurkey]

5 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

 

many times it's used to validate info for the player with their own eyes.

sometimes the better the player, the more skeptical they are of anyone not named harmon.

 

like a doc simply looking at someone's arm and saying they have hairline fracture. maybe so, but an x-ray helps...

 

I totally get it, and not everyone has Butch's eye.

 

I could tell stories about a coach in a different sport, but it's bizarre what some people can pick up in real time with no tech. IMO it's as weird and unique as those people who can almost instantly multiply two massive numbers together in their heads.

[Soloman1]

well, i think there are a lot more people with experience and good eyes who can pick things out quickly than there are multiplier guys. 😉

 

 

[iacas]

13 minutes ago, slytown said:

Side bend is ok IF you don't have horizontal hips at impact. THAT's the reason Willy Z had back problems and Niemann will. You can have open hips like the pros if that type of impact is repeatable for you, you just need to have enough extension of the legs and tilt of the hips to take the pressure off your back. Fred Couples STILL has tons of side bend and open hips.

 

However, I think it's simply a type of impact. Plenty of people can play well with minimal side bend and more of a hand release. It's certainly more sustainable.

 

Fred side tilted because he didn't turn much and couldn't get his right elbow back in front very well, so he side tilted and shoved his hips forward, dropping his head down and back. And had back issues his whole career.

Fred's swing is over-rated due to how "smooth" he was when hitting it, the little pause at the top, and his speed.

 

One of the main points of the AMG video is that your hips should do a lot of the "tilting" in either direction… they do a lot of the left tilt at P4 and a lot of the right tilt late downswing/early follow-through.

[GolfTurkey]

50 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

well, i think there are a lot more people with experience and good eyes who can pick things out quickly than there are multiplier guys. 😉

 

 

 

Ok story time...

 

So it was a different sport but there was this coach who I was told was amazing who had produced a conveyor belt of top national junior and senior players in a smallish town with little pedigree in this sport. Long story short, I finally got to train with him and he was amazing but I still talk to the other guys about this one day when he invited a few of his players to his house for a BBQ.

 

It was the pointy end of the season of several different sports, and we spent an afternoon and evening watching play off games of an array of sports. This is when things got weird.

 

The coach would randomly say stuff like "blue team's number 10 is getting tired and not moving well to his right. Red team's number 8 should step to his inside to beat him and then pass to number 9 who will score in the corner". Then it would happen 2 minutes later.

 

That sort of stuff went on game after game, sport after sport, at which point all of our jaws were on the ground. This guy was picking up all sorts of stuff in real time that the commentators were not talking about and that the teams' analysts would be trying to figure out while spending all week watching games on repeat / in slow motion. It was like this fellow could see everything happening on the screen in ultra slow motion. You had to be there to experience it, but that was well into big number territory for me.

[betarhoalphadelta]

9 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Yeah, you’re basically just saying to set the box of the torso at address, and then respect the box while moving.

 

Of course, that’s too simple until AMG gives a super sophisticated skeleton movement sequence to support it. Then we are back at the same place, all nodding our heads in agreement about just staying in the box.

 

Not mocking AMG—I love their stuff—just saying: wise observations of the past lose their sexiness, and it takes fancy screens and explanations to get everyone back on-board with simple truth from the olden times.

 

Another example would be “hitting against a firm left side”=left leg braking to create more vertical force. Vertical force is sexier.

 

2 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

I guess you have to take following with a pinch of salt because of the source.

I heard Claude Harmon say on his podcast that it’s amazing how often the recommendation from the guys with force plates, 3D etc. after running someone through the full battery of tests is exactly the same as Butch after watching a few swings. 

 

I think everything has it's place. 

 

I'm an extraordinarily analytical person. Part of it is being an engineer (electrical in my case). As we say, "you can't spell geek with a EE" lol... I want to understand the science behind literally anything I do. Whether it was my motorcycle days when I wanted to fully understand the mechanics of countersteering and how "hanging off" in a corner actually benefited the cornering move, to brewing beer where I want to fully understand things like water chemistry and enzyme activity and how temperature affects yeast to hit my optimal flavor profile, to when I'm working on cooking or BBQ and I want to know exactly how to use process to achieve a desired result. Some (like my wife) would call such a thing "obsessive". But as it relates to beer or food, most call it "delicious" lol...

 

I really love AMG. They absolutely tickle my itch for developing a deeper understanding of the golf swing. As an engineer, I really feel like understanding these things makes me better able to mentally connect the "what I'm trying to do" with the "why I'm trying to do it". For me that "why" is important. And the AMG video in this case showed some absolutely tremendous content of "all these major winners, including LPGA with completely different strength capabilities and body types, do all these things the same way" which really kinda points to there being something of substance there from an analytical perspective. 

 

But... I don't use AMG as an instructional source in my own swing. Because they're YouTube content. They're not observing me and my swings in real time and giving me drills/feels/etc to fix the unique problems that *I* have. It's a theoretical understanding of the golf swing, which helps me understand what I should be doing, but is really not all that useful IMHO in actually getting me there. A live lesson with a good instructor is the missing piece there. 

 

All the technical analysis in the world doesn't get you from point A to point B. Because most of us need a decent instructor to actually understand where we are (point A) and to figure out how to teach us the feels that resonate with us individually to move towards 'better' (point B). And while measurement might help you determine point A, an instructor like Butch can also do that without the measurement due to decades of experience. 

[Hilts1969]

10 hours ago, slytown said:

 

Side bend is ok IF you don't have horizontal hips at impact. THAT's the reason Willy Z had back problems and Niemann will. You can have open hips like the pros if that type of impact is repeatable for you, you just need to have enough extension of the legs and tilt of the hips to take the pressure off your back. Fred Couples STILL has tons of side bend and open hips.

 

However, I think it's simply a type of impact. Plenty of people can play well with minimal side bend and more of a hand release. It's certainly more sustainable.

 

Using Couples as a model of okay right side bend for your back is like claiming Tiger is good for the well being of fire hydrants.

[Ty_Webb]

14 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

I guess you have to take following with a pinch of salt because of the source.

I heard Claude Harmon say on his podcast that it’s amazing how often the recommendation from the guys with force plates, 3D etc. after running someone through the full battery of tests is exactly the same as Butch after watching a few swings. 

 

That might be true, but if those force plates, 3D etc. enable those guys to come up with the same recommendations as the guy who's probably the best teacher in the world over the past 30 years, then maybe they're on to something?

[dcmidnight]

On 3/25/2024 at 11:54 PM, PedronNiall said:

Probably should throw these blasts from the past in their own thread as the old one is a mess with the forum update, but I'll put them here as they're helpful with achieving good side bend at impact without a lot of fuss. They also cover a lot of the why one should make it happen at address instead of chasing it in the downswing.

 

 

I know everyone learns differently and different formats may click with certain people. But this video right here is 3 minutes of exactly why I've bought so much of Monte's stuff. I subscribe to the AMG guys on YT as well, and honestly I really like their Shorts the best - but for me, he just as a way of making me say oh right, well no bleep - now that makes sense.

 

The modeling and the numbers and the technical stuff, I can watch and enjoy it. But FOR ME when I'm at the range working on something, it wont be something from a 40 minute video.

 

FOR ME...in my opinion...etc...

 

 

 

[slytown]

4 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

Using Couples as a model of okay right side bend for your back is like claiming Tiger is good for the well being of fire hydrants.

 

Tiger didn't have back problems until later in his career when certain coaches wanted him to drop his hands and get to the ball with side bend.

Edited March 27 by slytown

[slytown]

On 3/25/2024 at 1:27 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

IMO, you don’t have to side bend that much to max out your speed.  I never did even when I was young.  People who can create speed can do it any way.  If someone shows excess side bend helps you get 2/3 more mph, I’d buy that but not 5-10.  Then the question begs is that 2/3 worth trashing your back by 30?

 

It’s certainly not worth it for the average golfer and that’s the real discussion.

 

I said this before or in another thread.  I have a HS junior with multiple D1 offers who is 6-5.  When he was a freshman he was 6-2 and his pro at the time was telling him to use side bend to flatten the shaft.  His dad called me and asked what I thought.  I said, IMO, bad idea.  He came to me and the only thing we’ve worked on for the last 18 months is staying in left tilt longer.  He’s an elite athlete being all county in basketball as well.  He reverted back some when he took off golf for basketball season.  He didn’t lose any speed and now he’s able to flight PW at 70 feet and 135 yards versus 155 at 150 feet.  
 

This is a before and after from freshman year to now and a driver that was 123 mph.

 

That second swing is so much better, but folks will say his arms are too extended.

 

I think one thing that gets lost in the emphasis on impact and side bend is how the hands work. Folks that have less side bend tend to have better short games because they know how to work the ball with their hands. Yes, they may have slower ball speeds on driver but they will have a better game. Very few of the elite ball strikers with tons of side bend have great short games.