The Meaning of Required Spot in 14.2b(2)/1, Ball Dropped When Required to Replace

[Halebopp]

Howdy,

 

This is something I haven't really paid too close of an attention to. Clarification 14.2b(2)/1 says that when a player drops a ball back into play when he/she is supposed to replace the ball, the penalty depends on whether or not the ball came to rest on the required spot. If it comes to rest on the required spot, the ball has been put into play in a wrong way, if it doesn't come to rest on that spot, the player would be playing from a wrong place.

 

Now, what is the required spot? Let's assume a player has picked up his/her ball in play and went on to play a wrong ball and is now coming back to correct the error. The player isn't required to find the exact, original spot of the ball and we accept the player's best estimate of its location when a ball is replaced back into play. But, if the player drops the ball, is the "required spot" the original spot of the ball, or the spot in which the player estimates it to have been? Naturally that spot would then be the "reference point" and the "relief area" for the drop.

 

Further point is that when replacing the ball, the correct spot includes the vertical distance from the ground. While not necessarily the case every time, we can all imagine differences in how the ball will come to rest after being replaced and after being dropped in the rough for example.

 

I'm not sure of which one would be the correct spot for the dropped ball, the actual original spot or the estimate spot. I've assumed it to mean the original spot but now I'm doubting that idea. Even so, if it was the estimated spot, I find it very unlikely the dropped ball would come to rest at the estimated spot in a three-dimensional space. Would the estimated spot even exist unless the player determined it as the "reference point" before the drop? The most likely scenario for this to happen is the player simply walking back to the general location and dropping a ball back into play without much thought to the preciseness of the spot, outside of dropping onto the fairway or into the rough.

 

Either way I would be putting the onus on the player to prove he/she did play from the correct place.

[antip]

Agree, normally, there is virtually no chance that there would be a "magic" drop that finished on the exact correct spot and, as you note, the player dropping the ball is rarely thinking to deliver it to a particular place anyway. But it becomes more likely if the original spot is the lowest point in an area and the contours/ground lead a moving ball to the lowest point.

 

What is the correct spot? IMO it is the original spot if it is known and the lie is not altered, or it is the estimated spot if the original spot is not known precisely or the player is required to replace on a different spot.

[Hawkeye77]

First, I disagree with the suggestion that a player dropping a ball is "rarely thinking to deliver it to a particular place" --- that would be a player who simply isn't thinking.  Of course, you are looking to drop in a particular place within whatever area you are dropping in, for example, to get the best lie possible.

 

Second, I think OP, you are overthinking.  If you know the original spot that is where you replace it.  If not, then estimated. It's not an either/or option and the post wanders just a little bit so I'm not sure what you are suggesting on that issue.  

 

The onus is always on the player to show he/she complied with the rules.

[rogolf]

3 hours ago, antip said:

Agree, normally, there is virtually no chance that there would be a "magic" drop that finished on the exact correct spot and, as you note, the player dropping the ball is rarely thinking to deliver it to a particular place anyway. But it becomes more likely if the original spot is the lowest point in an area and the contours/ground lead a moving ball to the lowest point.

 

What is the correct spot? IMO it is the original spot if it is known and the lie is not altered, or it is the estimated spot if the original spot is not known precisely or the player is required to replace on a different spot.

This ^^^^^

[Halebopp]

9 hours ago, antip said:

Agree, normally, there is virtually no chance that there would be a "magic" drop that finished on the exact correct spot and, as you note, the player dropping the ball is rarely thinking to deliver it to a particular place anyway. But it becomes more likely if the original spot is the lowest point in an area and the contours/ground lead a moving ball to the lowest point.

 

What is the correct spot? IMO it is the original spot if it is known and the lie is not altered, or it is the estimated spot if the original spot is not known precisely or the player is required to replace on a different spot.

 

What if the player only estimates an area rather than a specific spot before the drop? Would the estimated spot still exist?

 

And yes, you would need special circumstances to know certainly the ball came to rest in the required spot. Possibly the original spot being in a divot hole or something similar.

[Newby]

8 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

What if the player only estimates an area rather than a specific spot before the drop? Would the estimated spot still exist?

 

And yes, you would need special circumstances to know certainly the ball came to rest in the required spot. Possibly the original spot being in a divot hole or something similar.

If he drops it when he should have placed he gets one penalty anyway. He must correct it.

 

When he places it on the original or estimated spot the operative word is spot not area.

[rogolf]

17 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

What if the player only estimates an area rather than a specific spot before the drop? Would the estimated spot still exist?

 

And yes, you would need special circumstances to know certainly the ball came to rest in the required spot. Possibly the original spot being in a divot hole or something similar.

Imo, if the player only estimates an area, he has not met the requirement and will be playing from a wrong place.  The "magic drop" will not exist for him.

[antip]

2 hours ago, rogolf said:

Imo, if the player only estimates an area, he has not met the requirement and will be playing from a wrong place.  The "magic drop" will not exist for him.

Agree, it will be a wrong place.

2 hours ago, Newby said:

If he drops it when he should have placed he gets one penalty anyway. He must correct it.

 

I'm not really following this. Drop instead of place is almost always going to get the general penalty unless corrected before playing the ball.

[Newby]

29 minutes ago, antip said:

Agree, it will be a wrong place.

I'm not really following this. Drop instead of place is almost always going to get the general penalty unless corrected before playing the ball.

I said:

If he drops it when he should have placed he gets one penalty anyway. He must correct it.

 

[antip]

6 hours ago, Newby said:

I said:

If he drops it when he should have placed he gets one penalty anyway. He must correct it.

 

Yes, repeating it is not helping - I do not follow what you are saying in this paragraph.

If dropped when it should be placed and the player corrects and proceeds under an applicable rule there is no penalty. But this says there is "one penalty anyway".

I also don't understand what you mean by "one penalty". Is it one penalty stroke? Is it "a" penalty that could be one or two penalty strokes?

[Newby]

2 hours ago, antip said:

Yes, repeating it is not helping - I do not follow what you are saying in this paragraph.

If dropped when it should be placed and the player corrects and proceeds under an applicable rule there is no penalty. But this says there is "one penalty anyway".

I also don't understand what you mean by "one penalty". Is it one penalty stroke? Is it "a" penalty that could be one or two penalty strokes?

When a player drops a ball when the Rules require them to replace the ball, the ball has been replaced in a wrong way. If the player replaces the ball in a wrong way, but on the required spot (this includes if the player drops the ball and it comes to rest on the required spot), they get one penalty stroke if the ball is played without correcting the mistake under Rule 14.5

[Halebopp]

18 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

First, I disagree with the suggestion that a player dropping a ball is "rarely thinking to deliver it to a particular place" --- that would be a player who simply isn't thinking.  Of course, you are looking to drop in a particular place within whatever area you are dropping in, for example, to get the best lie possible.

 

Second, I think OP, you are overthinking.  If you know the original spot that is where you replace it.  If not, then estimated. It's not an either/or option and the post wanders just a little bit so I'm not sure what you are suggesting on that issue.  

 

The onus is always on the player to show he/she complied with the rules.

 

The post was specifically about a player who does not proceed by the rules and replace the ball. It's about the requirements that need to be met for the player to get away with a one-stroke penalty for making a stroke at a ball that was returned back into play in a wrong way as opposed to receiving the general penalty for playing from a wrong place.

[Halebopp]

2 minutes ago, Newby said:

When a player drops a ball when the Rules require them to replace the ball, the ball has been replaced in a wrong way. If the player replaces the ball in a wrong way, but on the required spot (this includes if the player drops the ball and it comes to rest on the required spot), they get one penalty stroke if the ball is played without correcting the mistake under Rule 14.5

 

Yes, hence my original question was about what the required spot would be. It seems like the consensus is that if the original spot isn't known, the required spot is the estimated spot. And, if no precise spot is estimated before the drop, that spot simply does not exist.

 

And because of the preciseness required in a three-dimensional world, either the drop would need to be magical or the area would need to have shapes (whether natural or man made) that'd cause the ball to come to rest in the specific spot regardless of how the ball arrives in the area (rolling after a stroke, dropped...).

 

Thank you all, your views on the matter are greatly appreciated!

[antip]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

When a player drops a ball when the Rules require them to replace the ball, the ball has been replaced in a wrong way. If the player replaces the ball in a wrong way, but on the required spot (this includes if the player drops the ball and it comes to rest on the required spot), they get one penalty stroke if the ball is played without correcting the mistake under Rule 14.5

LOL, your original material was removed from the context of the Rule and simply wrong and misleading.

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, Halebopp said:

 

The post was specifically about a player who does not proceed by the rules and replace the ball. It's about the requirements that need to be met for the player to get away with a one-stroke penalty for making a stroke at a ball that was returned back into play in a wrong way as opposed to receiving the general penalty for playing from a wrong place.

Yes

[Newby]

2 hours ago, antip said:

LOL, your original material was removed from the context of the Rule and simply wrong and misleading.

In what way was it wrong?

If you drop the ball on the spot and it stops dead but you don't correct it, what is the penalty?

Edited March 28 by Newby

[davep043]

4 hours ago, Halebopp said:

And because of the preciseness required in a three-dimensional world, either the drop would need to be magical or the area would need to have shapes (whether natural or man made) that'd cause the ball to come to rest in the specific spot regardless of how the ball arrives in the area (rolling after a stroke, dropped...).

I suggest that this is where 1.3b(2) comes into play.  The player's "reasonable judgement" is generally accepted, with some qualifications.  He doesn't have to be magical.

[Hawkeye77]

14 hours ago, Newby said:

In what way was it wrong?

If you drop the ball on the spot and it stops dead but you don't correct it, what is the penalty?

 

It is as you said. 
 

Guy I just shared an elevator with about ten minutes ago asked me if I knew the temperature - I said, “around thirty.”

 

For some reason he didn’t say, “degrees, or what?” “that Celsius pal?” “you mean outside the hotel?”.  So I knew he wasn't spending time in the Rules subforum, lol.

Edited March 29 by Hawkeye77

[antip]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

In what way was it wrong?

If you drop the ball on the spot and don't correct it, what is the penalty?

You said: 

 

 

"If he drops it when he should have placed he gets one penalty anyway. He must correct it."

 

The words are unclear and internally inconsistent.

 

The player dropping instead of replacing correctly will be penalized if they play the ball without correction. If it is in the correct spot (extremely unlikely) it would get one penalty stroke. If it is in a wrong place (extremely likely), it gets the general penalty.
However, if the player corrects prior to playing the ball, then there is no penalty whatsoever - so your suggestion of "gets one penalty anyway" is not correct. 

Edited March 28 by antip
typo

[Mr. Bean]

I believe the wording of that particular Clarification is simply about covering one's back, not about a real possibility of a dropped ball to end up on the correct spot. Regardless of how you look at it, it is virtually impossible to have a dropped ball to end up on the exact spot a replaced ball would have been replaced. Thus, in the utmost improbable case that should happen there is a written answer to support that one in a trillion -case.

 

Halebopp, I would not lose any sleep over this one.

[Halebopp]

18 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

I believe the wording of that particular Clarification is simply about covering one's back, not about a real possibility of a dropped ball to end up on the correct spot. Regardless of how you look at it, it is virtually impossible to have a dropped ball to end up on the exact spot a replaced ball would have been replaced. Thus, in the utmost improbable case that should happen there is a written answer to support that one in a trillion -case.

 

Halebopp, I would not lose any sleep over this one.

 

You need not worry, I haven't and won't be losing any sleep over it. It's just one peculiarity I realised I haven't given much actual thought to and began to wonder what it truly means.

[Halebopp]

4 hours ago, davep043 said:

I suggest that this is where 1.3b(2) comes into play.  The player's "reasonable judgement" is generally accepted, with some qualifications.  He doesn't have to be magical.

 

At what point would the reasonable judgment of the spot come into play? Before the drop or after the ball has come to rest?

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, davep043 said:

I suggest that this is where 1.3b(2) comes into play.  The player's "reasonable judgement" is generally accepted, with some qualifications.  He doesn't have to be magical.

 

I might ask the same question as Halebopp did and wish to add this:

 

What is the probability of a dropped ball to end up lying on a specific predetermined spot?

[Mr. Bean]

Maybe it is just me but as a referee I would have a very very very hard time to accept that highly improbable outcome. Also I think it would have been wiser from the RBs not to have written that Clarification at all, it only creates confusion and dispute about a virtually non-existing issue.

[davep043]

23 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

At what point would the reasonable judgment of the spot come into play? Before the drop or after the ball has come to rest?

 

21 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I might ask the same question as Halebopp did and wish to add this:

 

What is the probability of a dropped ball to end up lying on a specific predetermined spot?

When @Halebopp asked about the level of precision required, I pointed out the answer within the Rules.  As to whether the player has used "reasonable judgement", that is has done what can be reasonably expected in this situation, I'd say no.  If he has dropped rather than placed, he hasn't made the effort to determine the correct location, and without that determination he cannot have played from the correct location.  

[Halebopp]

18 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

Maybe it is just me but as a referee I would have a very very very hard time to accept that highly improbable outcome. Also I think it would have been wiser from the RBs not to have written that Clarification at all, it only creates confusion and dispute about a virtually non-existing issue.

 

I'm sure the whole clarification is the result of the desire to treat similar situations alike. Ball returned to play in a wrong way in the correct spot, or area is always a one-stroke penalty and the ruling bodies wanted this situation to be the same rather than make an exception for it.

 

But yeah, I doubt I'll run into the issue in real life unless I get a call regarding some weekly competition at the club.

[antip]

5 hours ago, davep043 said:

 

When @Halebopp asked about the level of precision required, I pointed out the answer within the Rules.  As to whether the player has used "reasonable judgement", that is has done what can be reasonably expected in this situation, I'd say no.  If he has dropped rather than placed, he hasn't made the effort to determine the correct location, and without that determination he cannot have played from the correct location.  

Yes, those bolded words are key. And dropping vs replacing doesn't cut the mustard.

 

Another example: dropping in a relief area - player is keen to get to the furthest edge of a relief area with their drop to have a better line of play, they take the drop just using eye judgement - can they claim they have used "reasonable judgement". USGA rulings say no, the player has failed to do what can be reasonable expected to confirm they are in a correct place so if it proves to be outside the relief area they get the wrong place penalty.

 

 

[antip]

6 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

Maybe it is just me but as a referee I would have a very very very hard time to accept that highly improbable outcome. Also I think it would have been wiser from the RBs not to have written that Clarification at all, it only creates confusion and dispute about a virtually non-existing issue.

Halebopp's question relates to a quirky feature of the Clarification - what is becoming commonly known as the "magic drop", but I don't believe that is the main purpose of this Clarification. The key purpose is to make clear that the player that merely drops on the "required spot" (in the mistaken view that is okay) is going to get the wrong place general penalty. And the new last sentence also affirms that the combination of wrong way and wrong place gets only the general penalty under 1.3c(4).