Cameron Champ...1st Strokes Gained off the tee...178th Approach to Green

[Dutch1008]

1 minute ago, mosesgolf said:

But Cam has done it 3 times.  Anyone who has 3 wins on Tour is special.  It's so hard to win out there.  Plus he is not done yet.

 

Yes, wins are great. But Wydham Clark also has 3 wins. So does Champ = Clark? Or are we going to dig a little deeper and accept that some wins are a bit more impressive than others. There are majors, strong PGA events, middling PGA events, and weak PGA events. All are impressive, all are hard. Some just more than others. 

[Titleist99]

39 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

Yes, wins are great. But Wydham Clark also has 3 wins. So does Champ = Clark? Or are we going to dig a little deeper and accept that some wins are a bit more impressive than others. There are majors, strong PGA events, middling PGA events, and weak PGA events. All are impressive, all are hard. Some just more than others. 

I can think of ten PGAT events that are harder to win than the Master and the Open.

 

Remember, Tiger, Jack, Koepka, etc...... says the Majors are the easiest to win because you really only have to beat around thirty players at best. Their words not mine.

[Dutch1008]

1 minute ago, Titleist99 said:

I can think of ten PGAT events that are harder to win than the Master and the Open.

 

Remember, Tiger, Jack, Koepka, etc...... says the Majors are the easiest to win because you really only have to beat around thirty players at best. Their words not mine.

 

But that isn't a strength of field argument. That's a mental fortitude opinion. 

 

Wydham's wins are the Wells Fargo (being played as an elevated event with every non-LIV top player in attendance), The US Open (AKA "The Toughest Test in Golf"), and the AT&T Pebble Beach (Played as a signature event). 

 

Feel free to affix a small asterisk to that last one as it was only 54 holes 😉 Regardless, those are three big events with very strong fields. 

[jimecherry]

15 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

I can think of ten PGAT events that are harder to win than the Master and the Open.

 

Remember, Tiger, Jack, Koepka, etc...... says the Majors are the easiest to win because you really only have to beat around thirty players at best. Their words not mine.

we should find a quote like that from someone who only won 1 major and less than 10 events. anyone that says majors are easier cause fewer guys that have a shot at me is built different in the head.

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

Yes, wins are great. But Wydham Clark also has 3 wins. So does Champ = Clark? Or are we going to dig a little deeper and accept that some wins are a bit more impressive than others. There are majors, strong PGA events, middling PGA events, and weak PGA events. All are impressive, all are hard. Some just more than others. 

I don’t think anyone made that comparison.  Clark in the last year or so makes top 10’s routine while Champ either wins or MC’s it seems.

 

That said….put me in the group that dislikes any post denigrating any tour win.  Just because you don’t know the names doesn’t mean they’re not great players.

 

 

[Dutch1008]

2 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

I don’t think anyone made that comparison.  Clark in the last year or so makes top 10’s routine while Champ either wins or MC’s it seems.

 

That said….put me in the group that dislikes any post denigrating any tour win.  Just because you don’t know the names doesn’t mean they’re not great players.

 

 

 

Denigrates? 🤣 Nobody is dogging his wins. He took down JT, Bryson, and Morikawa at the Safeway. Plenty of other guys that people know. I know the names. Saying all wins aren't equal is not an insult. Michael Block's endless amateur wins are impressive too, but they're not tour wins and they're not premier tour wins. 

 

Regardless, this thread has lost the plot. An earlier poster used Cam Champ's lack of domination as proof that distance is overrated. I pushed back saying that Cam's elite skill has kept him  a pro and made him millions. Somehow that has been twisted into me saying Cam sucks.  Unreal. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

21 hours ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

I think people get hung up on wins and being a top  5/10/25 ranked player. Cam Champ has made $8M as a one trick pony. If the dude ends up w/ a 10+ year career and $10-15M in his pocket, how can anyone possibly say that driving distance is overvalued? 

 

3 hours ago, Dutch1008 said:

I'm not really trying to insult Cam Champ. In the grand scheme of things he is a very good golfer. But if we're picking nits, the dude has one world class skill, one tour average skill, and the rest of his game is not up to the standards of his peers. I actually love the dudes swing so I hope he figures it out. Honestly, because of his power, he doesn't need to be Colin Morikawa w/ his irons. If he dials in his wedges from 75-150 he'll keep his tour card for another decade. 

 

 

And Collin Morikawa is 134th on tour in driving distance (used last season as it was a full season, but if I chose 2024 he's 167th so it's not cherry-picking), has 6 PGAT wins, one international win, and one major. $27M plus in career earnings. Oh, and he's younger than Cam--he came out on tour two years after Cam. 

 

Honestly, because of his ballstriking, looks like he doesn't need to be Cam Champ w/ his driver; he's already kicking Cam's butt. 

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

21 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

Regardless, this thread has lost the plot. An earlier poster used Cam Champ's lack of domination as proof that distance is overrated. I pushed back saying that Cam's elite skill has kept him  a pro and made him millions. Somehow that has been twisted into me saying Cam sucks.  Unreal. 

 

Per my post above, your appeal to Collin's elite ballstriking is sort of a piece of evidence that distance is overrated. Especially since it's not like Morikawa can rely on elite putting too. 

 

It's almost like being elite with your irons is MORE important than distance (or even SG) off the tee, huh?

[woahnelly]

8 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

 

And Collin Morikawa is 134th on tour in driving distance (used last season as it was a full season, but if I chose 2024 he's 167th so it's not cherry-picking), has 6 PGAT wins, one international win, and one major. $27M plus in career earnings. Oh, and he's younger than Cam--he came out on tour two years after Cam. 

 

Honestly, because of his ballstriking, looks like he doesn't need to be Cam Champ w/ his driver; he's already kicking Cam's butt. 

 

 

Id like the golf genie to grant me Champs driving - Colins iron play - putting? Who cares, I'm tapping these in. 

[Dutch1008]

2 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

And Collin Morikawa is 134th on tour in driving distance (used last season as it was a full season, but if I chose 2024 he's 167th so it's not cherry-picking), has 6 PGAT wins, one international win, and one major. $27M plus in career earnings. Oh, and he's younger than Cam--he came out on tour two years after Cam. 

 

Honestly, because of his ballstriking, looks like he doesn't need to be Cam Champ w/ his driver; he's already kicking Cam's butt. 

 

Not sure what your point is here. Excluding 2024 because we're dealing w/ small sample sizes, Morikawa is comfortably positive in SG-OTT. He's right around tour average on distance and is 8-10% more accurate. Morikawa isn't Corey Pavin, he's tour average distance, better than average accuracy and a supernatural iron player. 

 

https://datagolf.com/player-profiles?dg_id=22085

 

 

[Dutch1008]

7 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Per my post above, your appeal to Collin's elite ballstriking is sort of a piece of evidence that distance is overrated. Especially since it's not like Morikawa can rely on elite putting too. 

 

It's almost like being elite with your irons is MORE important than distance (or even SG) off the tee, huh?

 

Did I say somewhere that driving distance is the be all end all god metric?

 

This is Colin's current profile...

 

He has elite accuracy off the tee, elite iron play, better than average short game, and is tour average with the putter and distance off the tee. He's not bizarro Cam. He's a well rounded player w/ a couple elite traits.    

[betarhoalphadelta]

6 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

Not sure what your point is here. Excluding 2024 because we're dealing w/ small sample sizes, Morikawa is comfortably positive in SG-OTT. He's right around tour average on distance and is 8-10% more accurate. Morikawa isn't Corey Pavin, he's tour average distance, better than average accuracy and a supernatural iron player. 

 

https://datagolf.com/player-profiles?dg_id=22085

 

 

The point is that you're trying to claim distance is NOT overrated based on the fact that Cam Champ can kick around tour being elite at hitting the ball a long way with above-average accuracy and sorta mediocre in most other categories. 

 

And then YOU were the one who compared him to Collin, who hits a below-average distance but is elite with irons. Yeah, Collin is above-average accuracy off the tee, and decent in SG-OTT. He's probably helped OTT by not hitting as far (and thus less likely to hit it into trouble), his iron accuracy helps him be more accurate with driver, and also with the knowledge that he doesn't have to bomb it out there because he can rely on elite iron play as long as he's hitting from the fairway. 

 

So my argument would be that in the grand scheme of things, SG-OTT is overrated, and SG-Approach is underrated. Because a guy like Cam Champ isn't remotely in the same league as Collin Morikawa. 

[Dutch1008]

3 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

The point is that you're trying to claim distance is NOT overrated based on the fact that Cam Champ can kick around tour being elite at hitting the ball a long way with above-average accuracy and sorta mediocre in most other categories. 

 

And then YOU were the one who compared him to Collin, who hits a below-average distance but is elite with irons. Yeah, Collin is above-average accuracy off the tee, and decent in SG-OTT. He's probably helped OTT by not hitting as far (and thus less likely to hit it into trouble), his iron accuracy helps him be more accurate with driver, and also with the knowledge that he doesn't have to bomb it out there because he can rely on elite iron play as long as he's hitting from the fairway. 

 

So my argument would be that in the grand scheme of things, SG-OTT is overrated, and SG-Approach is underrated. Because a guy like Cam Champ isn't remotely in the same league as Collin Morikawa. 

 

I didn't compare Cam Champ to Colin or at least didn't mean to. My point was that Cam can carve out a long and lucrative career with a modest improvement in his approach play. I'm not talking about being one of the best of the best. I'm talking about pocketing $1-2M / year and keeping a tour card for 10-15 years.

 

A +1 Stroke Gained player is a top 25/30 golfer in the world. Doesn't matter how you get there. Cam does that w/ his driver alone. If the rest of his game was simply tour average, he'd be a top 25 guy, not clinging on to dear life to stay in the top 150.  

[Shilgy]

58 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

Denigrates? 🤣 Nobody is dogging his wins. He took down JT, Bryson, and Morikawa at the Safeway. Plenty of other guys that people know. I know the names. Saying all wins aren't equal is not an insult. Michael Block's endless amateur wins are impressive too, but they're not tour wins and they're not premier tour wins. 

 

Regardless, this thread has lost the plot. An earlier poster used Cam Champ's lack of domination as proof that distance is overrated. I pushed back saying that Cam's elite skill has kept him  a pro and made him millions. Somehow that has been twisted into me saying Cam sucks.  Unreal. 

Got it.  So you were not demeaning his wins at all when you posted….

 

A win on any tour is a hell of an accomplishment but Cam's wins are the Safeway, Sanderson Farms, and the 3M. Not exactly Riv and Muirfield Village.

 

For most of us here the “but” means you are in fact dogging his wins.

[Dutch1008]

1 minute ago, Shilgy said:

Got it.  So you were not demeaning his wins at all when you posted….

 

A win on any tour is a hell of an accomplishment but Cam's wins are the Safeway, Sanderson Farms, and the 3M. Not exactly Riv and Muirfield Village.

 

For most of us here the “but” means you are in fact dogging his wins.

 

No, I'm stating a widely held opinion. 

 

I'm sure Rory would trade a tour championship for a major and I's sure Cam Champ would trade the Sanderson for the Memorial. That's not dogging the tour championship, it's being honest about where it stacks in relationship to other events. 

[Titleist99]

48 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Per my post above, your appeal to Collin's elite ballstriking is sort of a piece of evidence that distance is overrated. Especially since it's not like Morikawa can rely on elite putting too. 

 

It's almost like being elite with your irons is MORE important than distance (or even SG) off the tee, huh?

100%. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

12 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

A +1 Stroke Gained player is a top 25/30 golfer in the world. Doesn't matter how you get there. Cam does that w/ his driver alone. If the rest of his game was simply tour average, he'd be a top 25 guy, not clinging on to dear life to stay in the top 150.  

 

No, he doesn't. That's not how it works. Cam Champ is not a +1 SG player and isn't a top 25/30 golfer in the world. Last season he was -0.453 SG (161st) player and is tracking to +0.134 (82nd) this year. In SG-OTT, he was +0.490 (19th) last year and is +0.989 (1st) this year.

 

Yes, if the rest of his game was tour average, he'd be a top 25 guy. But it's not. 

 

So the guy who was 19th SG-OTT last year but 161st SG-Total, and is 1st SG-OTT this year but 82nd SG-Total, is a guy who is fighting to make cuts and potentially will have his card in jeopardy once his win exemptions expire. 

 

Top-20 SG-OTT and 4th in driving distance last year, Tops in both this year, and has made 3 out of 9 cuts so far, all in non-Signature events. 

 

Sure sounds like distance and even SG-OTT are overrated. 

[Strategery]

My take is it shows how important driving is. He's so bad into the green, imagine how crap he would be if his driving was bad.

[Titleist99]

.

Edited April 2 by Titleist99

[Dutch1008]

26 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

No, he doesn't. That's not how it works. Cam Champ is not a +1 SG player and isn't a top 25/30 golfer in the world. Last season he was -0.453 SG (161st) player and is tracking to +0.134 (82nd) this year. In SG-OTT, he was +0.490 (19th) last year and is +0.989 (1st) this year.

 

Yes, if the rest of his game was tour average, he'd be a top 25 guy. But it's not. 

 

So the guy who was 19th SG-OTT last year but 161st SG-Total, and is 1st SG-OTT this year but 82nd SG-Total, is a guy who is fighting to make cuts and potentially will have his card in jeopardy once his win exemptions expire. 

 

Top-20 SG-OTT and 4th in driving distance last year, Tops in both this year, and has made 3 out of 9 cuts so far, all in non-Signature events. 

 

Sure sounds like distance and even SG-OTT are overrated. 

 

 

I know the rest of his game isn't tour average, where did I state it was? 

 

One, Adam Scott is data golfs 31st ranked golfer at .98 SGT, Harris English is 30th at +1.04, so a player (not Cam specifically, but any player) that is a +1 SGT is roughly a top 30 golfer. 

 

Two, Cam is currently gaining +1 SG-OTT. IF the rest of his game were tour average (tour average being +0.0 SG), which I very clearly typed, he'd be a top 30 guy. The rest of his game isn't up to par and I never said it was. 

 

As for how this works, I'm not sure you get it. There is no difference in the value of +1 SG-OTT and +1 SG-APP. They are tools for deconstructing a score. If Johnny Putt Putt, Adam Long Drive, and Fred Iron Dart are all +1 SG Total  but each gets there with a different super power, it doesn't matter. They are still shooting the same scores. Strokes Gained doesn't have an opinion on which skill is more valuable, it's completely agnostic. 

 

But if you want to believe distance is worthless or marginal at best, tell that to Steven Jaeger or Matt Fitzpatrick, who both unlocked a new level of success with speed training. Tell to Arnie, Jack, Norman, Tiger, Rory and everybody else who's dominated the sport in part due to their power off the tee. 

 

https://thefriedegg.com/stephan-jaeger-houston-open/

 

If you believe SG-APP has the most predictive power, or is the most common ingredient of the truly great, I wont argue and wont disagree. But that doesn't make driving distance overrated. 

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

No, I'm stating a widely held opinion. 

 

I'm sure Rory would trade a tour championship for a major and I's sure Cam Champ would trade the Sanderson for the Memorial. That's not dogging the tour championship, it's being honest about where it stacks in relationship to other events. 

Ok…that’s just not how it read.  But I agree with the explanation.

[betarhoalphadelta]

23 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

I know the rest of his game isn't tour average, where did I state it was? 

 

One, Adam Scott is data golfs 31st ranked golfer at .98 SGT, Harris English is 30th at +1.04, so a player (not Cam specifically, but any player) that is a +1 SGT is roughly a top 30 golfer. 

 

Two, Cam is currently gaining +1 SG-OTT. IF the rest of his game were tour average (tour average being +0.0 SG), which I very clearly typed, he'd be a top 30 guy. The rest of his game isn't up to par and I never said it was. 

 

As for how this works, I'm not sure you get it. There is no difference in the value of +1 SG-OTT and +1 SG-APP. They are tools for deconstructing a score. If Johnny Putt Putt, Adam Long Drive, and Fred Iron Dart are all +1 SG Total  but each gets there with a different super power, it doesn't matter. They are still shooting the same scores. Strokes Gained doesn't have an opinion on which skill is more valuable, it's completely agnostic. 

 

But if you want to believe distance is worthless or marginal at best, tell that to Steven Jaeger or Matt Fitzpatrick, who both unlocked a new level of success with speed training. Tell to Arnie, Jack, Norman, Tiger, Rory and everybody else who's dominated the sport in part due to their power off the tee. 

 

https://thefriedegg.com/stephan-jaeger-houston-open/

 

If you believe SG-APP has the most predictive power, or is the most common ingredient of the truly great, I wont argue and wont disagree. But that doesn't make driving distance overrated. 

 

I'm also not sure you get it. If a player is +1 SG-OTT and tour average 0.00 SG-Approach, 0.00 SG-ATG, and 0.00 SG-Putting, that doesn't mean that he'll be +1 SG-Total. I don't know the weighting, and I'm assuming it's not equal, but if it's equal that would be +0.25 SG-Total. NOT top-30. 

 

And I don't think distance is worthless or marginal. But I think the fact that the PGAT distance leader list only shows a weak correlation to the FedEx cup points / OWGR suggests that distance, while important, is overrated. Distance is is a marked advantage if you have a complete game otherwise. If you don't, distance might keep you afloat, but it's not going to make you dominate. 

 

[Valtiel]

3 hours ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

Feel free to affix a small asterisk to that last one as it was only 54 holes 😉 

Also Gooch. 

[SwooshLT]

3 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

 

And Collin Morikawa is 134th on tour in driving distance (used last season as it was a full season, but if I chose 2024 he's 167th so it's not cherry-picking), has 6 PGAT wins, one international win, and one major. $27M plus in career earnings. Oh, and he's younger than Cam--he came out on tour two years after Cam. 

 

Honestly, because of his ballstriking, looks like he doesn't need to be Cam Champ w/ his driver; he's already kicking Cam's butt. 

 

 

NOT being that guy BUT Colin has 2 MAJORS ...... The great leaderboard 2020 PGA .....2021 Open 

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 minute ago, SwooshLT said:

 

NOT being that guy BUT Colin has 2 MAJORS ...... The great leaderboard 2020 PGA .....2021 Open 

My apologies! I forgot that it was 2. 

 

[Dutch1008]

4 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

I'm also not sure you get it. If a player is +1 SG-OTT and tour average 0.00 SG-Approach, 0.00 SG-ATG, and 0.00 SG-Putting, that doesn't mean that he'll be +1 SG-Total. I don't know the weighting, and I'm assuming it's not equal, but if it's equal that would be +0.25 SG-Total. NOT top-30. 

 

Dude, there is no weighting. It’s straight addition. If tour average is a 72 and you fire 68, you gained 4 strokes on the field. It’s that simple. They break it down further into off the tee, around the greens, putting, and approach. 

 

From the folks at Data Golf…

 

On the true strokes-gained page, why don't the strokes-gained categories add up to strokes-gained total in the yearly summary tables?

Only events that have the ShotLink system set up provide data on player performance in the strokes-gained categories. Therefore, the true strokes-gained numbers in each category are derived from this subset of events, while the true strokes-gained total numbers are derived from all events in our data (PGA Tour, European Tour, Web.com, etc.). If every tournament a golfer played in a given season had the ShotLink system in place, then the sum of the true SG categories will equal true SG total.

 

https://datagolf.com/frequently-asked-questions#true-strokes-gained

[frieswithdat]

He’s probably been slacking on his prosendr protocols, needs to regulate his radial deviation better. Is he still with Foley or ditched him recently? Feel like he didn’t get any better under that guy.

 

Canadian open last year, wet conditions … never seen a driver teed so low and hit so hard in person … barely gets airborne and still outdrives playing partners by 30 yards (he outdrove them with his fairway wood a couple times).

 

Iron play looked terrible.

 

He was super nice to fans from what I saw and entertaining to watch. He doesn’t act like a little ***** when things don’t go his way (not like that Keith Mitchell guy, what you see on TV from him is the PG version for sure, I honestly thought he was going to get kicked off the course at one point). If Cam started contending more would be good for tour.

[smashdn]

On 4/1/2024 at 3:46 PM, Ironman_32 said:

Somewhat of a compelling stat. Cam Champ is leading the PGA tour in strokes gained off the tee but close to or essentially the bottom for approach to the green. Around the green he's 169th. 

 

Is there not a better way for him to get better at approach/around the green?

 

Yes, be more accurate with irons.  And when you do miss, hit it closer to the hole with your pitch/chip.

 

On 4/1/2024 at 3:46 PM, Ironman_32 said:

Does this prove that driving is overvalued currently in the game as someone can get by just on that,

 

I don't know that it proves it.  I think it indicates you can be really good at driving but if you cannot turn your good position from your drive into a good position on the green, it will be wasted.

 

On 4/1/2024 at 3:46 PM, Ironman_32 said:

 

or does it show that distance isn't that big a deal because there are still other parts to the game. 

 

No.  You are looking at largely independent variables.  I say largely because while a good drive (distance and in the short grass) sets you up to be able to make a good approach, what you do with the approach shot is independent of what you did with the drive (especially with regard to those stats). 

[Ironman_32]

18 hours ago, mosesgolf said:

But Cam has done it 3 times.  Anyone who has 3 wins on Tour is special.  It's so hard to win out there.  Plus he is not done yet.

Agreed, a wins a win. Could probably debate me on that, I know some tournaments are considerd bigger than others. Yet, if it was fairly easy to rack up wins, more players would have done it. 

 

You think of Lee Westwood or Monty, never won on the PGA tour. Charles Howell 3 wins, Martin Kaymer 3 wins (2 majors and 1 Players, but if its easy he'd have more). Luke Donald had 5 and got to #1. Lot of other guys people can name. 

 

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

10 hours ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

Dude, there is no weighting. It’s straight addition. If tour average is a 72 and you fire 68, you gained 4 strokes on the field. It’s that simple. They break it down further into off the tee, around the greens, putting, and approach. 

 

 

My apologies; you are correct. I actually just looked at his stats on the PGAT site and it is, indeed, addition. So yes, if he were tour average everywhere else, it would get him to around the top 30 this year (last season he was only 0.490 SG-OTT, so we'll see if he can keep it up). 

 

The point still stands though... If he's #1 on tour in SG-OTT and #1 on tour in driving distance, and he's missed 6 of 9 cuts this year and the only cuts he's made are non-Signature events, doesn't that suggest that driving, by itself, is overrated? You can be truly elite driving the golf ball, and that gets you to 133rd in FedEx cup points and #296 OWGR...