Cameron Champ...1st Strokes Gained off the tee...178th Approach to Green

[Ironman_32]

Somewhat of a compelling stat. Cam Champ is leading the PGA tour in strokes gained off the tee but close to or essentially the bottom for approach to the green. Around the green he's 169th. 

 

Is there not a better way for him to get better at approach/around the green?

 

Does this prove that driving is overvalued currently in the game as someone can get by just on that, or does it show that distance isn't that big a deal because there are still other parts to the game. 

[tiderider]

9 minutes ago, Ironman_32 said:

Somewhat of a compelling stat. Cam Champ is leading the PGA tour in strokes gained off the tee but close to or essentially the bottom for approach to the green. Around the green he's 169th. 

 

Is there not a better way for him to get better at approach/around the green?

 

Does this prove that driving is overvalued currently in the game as someone can get by just on that, or does it show that distance isn't that big a deal because there are still other parts to the game. 

to me it shows that driving distance in and of itself is almost useless ... he came on the scene and was quite a bit longer than everyone else - and everybody knew about him and saw it coming - but that has not translated ... the better players are probably in the top echelon of distance, but they are at least middling in other areas ... 

[woahnelly]

I mean the dude has 3 PGA wins at age 28. Id say being elite off the tee has more pros than cons. 

[jimecherry]

41 minutes ago, woahnelly said:

I mean the dude has 3 PGA wins at age 28. Id say being elite off the tee has more pros than cons. 

depends if his wrist injury is related to his being long off the tee or not imho.

[byoung14]

1 hour ago, Ironman_32 said:

Somewhat of a compelling stat. Cam Champ is leading the PGA tour in strokes gained off the tee but close to or essentially the bottom for approach to the green. Around the green he's 169th. 

 

Is there not a better way for him to get better at approach/around the green?

 

Does this prove that driving is overvalued currently in the game as someone can get by just on that, or does it show that distance isn't that big a deal because there are still other parts to the game. 

Wouldn’t say it’s overvalued it’s just a small piece of the puzzle, distance gets a lot of hype because it’s going to draw more eyeballs from the average person compared to hitting irons solid and distance control.  As far as him getting better in his approach game/around the green that’s something Champ would have to commit to working on, some guys on tour are just happy to do enough to keep their cards but not really try to get to the next level.

[mosesgolf]

Cameron is definitely long off the tee but there are dozens of guys not that far off.  Strokes gained off the tee is one a few other good stats needed to win or be successful on Tour.  Perhaps that's the best he's got.  All of those guys have access to the best coaches in the world.  Cameron's strength is length and accuracy off the tee obviously.

[Dutch1008]

2 hours ago, tiderider said:

to me it shows that driving distance in and of itself is almost useless ... he came on the scene and was quite a bit longer than everyone else - and everybody knew about him and saw it coming - but that has not translated ... the better players are probably in the top echelon of distance, but they are at least middling in other areas ... 

 

Interesting. I think it shows the exact opposite. Distance is so important these days that a guy like Cam Champ can continue to get starts, keep a card, and scratch out a living despite the fact that the rest of his game is not tour worthy. 

 

The man made $1.1M last year by simply being a world class driver of the ball and tour average putter. 

[Golfinfloridaafter40]

2 hours ago, Ironman_32 said:

Somewhat of a compelling stat. Cam Champ is leading the PGA tour in strokes gained off the tee but close to or essentially the bottom for approach to the green. Around the green he's 169th. 

 

Is there not a better way for him to get better at approach/around the green?

 

Does this prove that driving is overvalued currently in the game as someone can get by just on that, or does it show that distance isn't that big a deal because there are still other parts to the game. 

 

On the ESPN broadcasts this last week they kept popping up top 10 lists of stats like this.  Ball Speed and Longest average drive were very telling, as the only top 20 player in either was Rory and he is not exactly racking up wins this year.  I have said for years that this whole distance craze was overhyped to sell clubs and made little to no difference in what someone shots on tour.  You will still have people argue and even quote studies that prove the closer you are to the pin, the lower the score but it isn't true and those studies were set up to get those results just like in every other kind of study done in other fields.

 

Putting under pressure is still king followed by proximity to the hole on approach, and then scrambling. 

 

Now... Is it fair to say that if two tour players have exactly the same skill set under pressure but one is longer than the other by 25 yards. that he (the longer one) will have an advantage?  Of course it is. 

[Valtiel]

2 minutes ago, mosesgolf said:

Cameron is definitely long off the tee but there are dozens of guys not that far off.  Strokes gained off the tee is one a few other good stats needed to win or be successful on Tour.  Perhaps that's the best he's got.  All of those guys have access to the best coaches in the world.  Cameron's strength is length and accuracy off the tee obviously.

 

Just now, Dutch1008 said:

 

Interesting. I think it shows the exact opposite. Distance is so important these days that a guy like Cam Champ can continue to get starts, keep a card, and scratch out a living despite the fact that the rest of his game is not tour worthy. 

 

The man made $1.1M last year by simply being a world class driver of the ball and tour average putter. 

Exactly. Champ is unfortunately a really good example of a "one tool" player, two tools if you're very generous and combine an occasionally average putter and an occasionally average iron game together. 

Statistically every category outside driving loses him strokes to the field, and his absolute peak so far is occasionally and barely reaching average in some of those categories and *not* losing those strokes. Those occasional spikes into "average" coinciding with wins if they happen to occur in multiple categories e.g. an average putter and average irons can win when the driver is elite. The problem is that ceiling so far has always been low and he's never had a strength to fall back on, especially to buttress his often poor approach play as his weakest area has consistently been short game, a terrible pairing unfortunately. 

[Dutch1008]

4 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Exactly. Champ is unfortunately a really good example of a "one tool" player, two tools if you're very generous and combine an occasionally average putter and an occasionally average iron game together. 

Statistically every category outside driving loses him strokes to the field, and his absolute peak so far is occasionally and barely reaching average in some of those categories and *not* losing those strokes. Those occasional spikes into "average" coinciding with wins if they happen to occur in multiple categories e.g. an average putter and average irons can win when the driver is elite. The problem is that ceiling so far has always been low and he's never had a strength to fall back on, especially to buttress his often poor approach play as his weakest area has consistently been short game, a terrible pairing unfortunately. 

 

I think people get hung up on wins and being a top  5/10/25 ranked player. Cam Champ has made $8M as a one trick pony. If the dude ends up w/ a 10+ year career and $10-15M in his pocket, how can anyone possibly say that driving distance is overvalued? 

[mackepa]

41 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

Interesting. I think it shows the exact opposite. Distance is so important these days that a guy like Cam Champ can continue to get starts, keep a card, and scratch out a living despite the fact that the rest of his game is not tour worthy. 

 

The man made $1.1M last year by simply being a world class driver of the ball and tour average putter. 

being elite off the tee is such a huge benefit in pro golf. Imagine this conversation if Cameron Champ was number 48 in strokes gained off the tee? 
 

“Could a 4 handicap beat Cameron Champ?”

[Dutch1008]

4 minutes ago, mackepa said:

being elite off the tee is such a huge benefit in pro golf. Imagine this conversation if Cameron Champ was number 48 in strokes gained off the tee? 
 

“Could a 4 handicap beat Cameron Champ?”

 

I can imagine it.....

 

Q - Could a 4 handicap beat Cam Champ?

 

A - Who's Cam Champ? Is he a middleweight? Sounds like a boxer. 

 

Fact is, w/o his singular super power, nobody would know him. He'd be a dude on the mini tours or possibly settled into life as a club pro. 

[bcjim]

He appears to be 16th in SG putting currently in 2024.

[Hawkeye77]

53 minutes ago, bcjim said:

He appears to be 16th in SG putting currently in 2024.

Stop with the real info!!

[woahnelly]

2 hours ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

I can imagine it.....

 

Q - Could a 4 handicap beat Cam Champ?

 

A - Who's Cam Champ? Is he a middleweight? Sounds like a boxer. 

 

Fact is, w/o his singular super power, nobody would know him. He'd be a dude on the mini tours or possibly settled into life as a club pro. 

 

Id give him more credit than that. 

 

Brandon Matthews hits it further than Champ, but he's stuck on the KFT.

[grm24]

4 hours ago, Dutch1008 said:

Distance is so important these days that a guy like Cam Champ can continue to get starts, keep a card

Well to be fair to CC is exempt this year due to the last of his 3 wins on tour. Some people think winning 3 times on the PGA Tour can make one be considered an all time great. 🙂 

[mosesgolf]

2 hours ago, bcjim said:

He appears to be 16th in SG putting currently in 2024.

Which explains why he is seen more on the top of leaderboards lately.  

[PedronNiall]

Guy is Rory turned to 11. Monstrous off the tee but can't get his short irons & wedges close to save his life compared to the field. 

 

He was working on bettering that pretty heavily early on. Not sure if it's a focus anymore or not. 

[naj959]

Is he still with Foley? Wonder if a new set of eyes could tighten up his approach game.

[iBanesto]

I'm still amazed by his smooth swing getting 190 mph ball speed.

 

Knapp-esque.

 

[mosesgolf]

Jake Knapp and Cameron both have that smooth effortless power.  Tv doesn’t do justice to how fast they really swing. 

[Dutch1008]

15 hours ago, woahnelly said:

Id give him more credit than that. 

 

Brandon Matthews hits it further than Champ, but he's stuck on the KFT.

 

Cam Champ actually has some decent control over his power. He's only about 5% less accurate off the tee than tour average. That's almost Rory territory. 

 

https://datagolf.com/player-profiles?dg_id=23542

 

Brandon Matthews can't keep it on the planet. He ranges from 10-20% worse than tour average. Despite his prodigious power, he actually loses strokes off the tee because he's so wild. 

 

https://datagolf.com/player-profiles?dg_id=22981

 

I'm not really trying to insult Cam Champ. In the grand scheme of things he is a very good golfer. But if we're picking nits, the dude has one world class skill, one tour average skill, and the rest of his game is not up to the standards of his peers. I actually love the dudes swing so I hope he figures it out. Honestly, because of his power, he doesn't need to be Colin Morikawa w/ his irons. If he dials in his wedges from 75-150 he'll keep his tour card for another decade. 

 

Elite driving + tour average wedge play + tour average putting = a lot of damn birdies

[woahnelly]

10 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

Cam Champ actually has some decent control over his power. He's only about 5% less accurate off the tee than tour average. That's almost Rory territory. 

 

https://datagolf.com/player-profiles?dg_id=23542

 

Brandon Matthews can't keep it on the planet. He ranges from 10-20% worse than tour average. Despite his prodigious power, he actually loses strokes off the tee because he's so wild. 

 

https://datagolf.com/player-profiles?dg_id=22981

 

I'm not really trying to insult Cam Champ. In the grand scheme of things he is a very good golfer. But if we're picking nits, the dude has one world class skill, one tour average skill, and the rest of his game is not up to the standards of his peers. I actually love the dudes swing so I hope he figures it out. Honestly, because of his power, he doesn't need to be Colin Morikawa w/ his irons. If he dials in his wedges from 75-150 he'll keep his tour card for another decade. 

 

Elite driving + tour average wedge play + tour average putting = a lot of damn birdies

 

Brandon Matthews reminds me of female golfer Sarah White who is stuck on the Epson Tour, last year her "avg" driving distance was 300+ yards, which would rival some of the lower end PGA guys.. She's led the tour the past 3 years tho I'm sure she makes more $ hustling men on the range, especially from this forum 😂

[Dutch1008]

6 minutes ago, woahnelly said:

Brandon Matthews reminds me of female golfer Sarah White who is stuck on the Epson Tour, last year her "avg" driving distance was 300+ yards, which would rival some of the lower end PGA guys.. She's led the tour the past 3 years tho I'm sure she makes more $ hustling men on the range, especially from this forum 😂

 

If Matthews is Sarah White, I'd peg Cam Champ as Anne Van Dam. Beautiful swings, awesome power, rest of the game just not up to snuff. 

[m d g]

21 hours ago, Ironman_32 said:

Does this prove that driving is overvalued currently in the game as someone can get by just on that, or does it show that distance isn't that big a deal because there are still other parts to the game. 

 

Drive for show, putt for dough.™

 

I've never heard this before but it sounds good so I will try to trademark it...

[Titleist99]

50 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

Cam Champ actually has some decent control over his power. He's only about 5% less accurate off the tee than tour average. That's almost Rory territory. 

 

https://datagolf.com/player-profiles?dg_id=23542

 

Brandon Matthews can't keep it on the planet. He ranges from 10-20% worse than tour average. Despite his prodigious power, he actually loses strokes off the tee because he's so wild. 

 

https://datagolf.com/player-profiles?dg_id=22981

 

I'm not really trying to insult Cam Champ. In the grand scheme of things he is a very good golfer. But if we're picking nits, the dude has one world class skill, one tour average skill, and the rest of his game is not up to the standards of his peers. I actually love the dudes swing so I hope he figures it out. Honestly, because of his power, he doesn't need to be Colin Morikawa w/ his irons. If he dials in his wedges from 75-150 he'll keep his tour card for another decade. 

 

Elite driving + tour average wedge play + tour average putting = a lot of damn birdies

"But if we're picking nits, the dude has one world class skill, one tour average skill, and the rest of his game is not up to the standards of his peers. I actually love the dudes swing so I hope he figures it out. Honestly, because of his power, he doesn't need to be Colin Morikawa w/ his irons. If he dials in his wedges from 75-150 he'll keep his tour card for another decade."

 

Keep in mind that Cam Champ is a three-time champion on the PGAT. In order to win on the big tour, I think that he has more skills than just driving the golf ball. I do agree with you regarding his wedge play though. He needs to go to Butch Harman to hone his dead arm wedge swing. When Woods first came out on tour, he air-mailed many greens until he worked on his 100-125 wedge shots ......IMO He just has to hit um closer.

Edited April 2 by Titleist99

[Dutch1008]

25 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

"But if we're picking nits, the dude has one world class skill, one tour average skill, and the rest of his game is not up to the standards of his peers. I actually love the dudes swing so I hope he figures it out. Honestly, because of his power, he doesn't need to be Colin Morikawa w/ his irons. If he dials in his wedges from 75-150 he'll keep his tour card for another decade."

 

Keep in mind that Cam Champ is a three-time champion on the PGAT. In order to win on the big tour, I think that he has more skills than just driving the golf ball. I do agree with you regarding his wedge play though. He needs to go to Butch Harman to hone his dead arm wedge swing. When Woods first came out on tour, he air-mailed many greens until he worked on his 100-125 wedge shots ......IMO He just has to hit um closer.

 

A win on any tour is a hell of an accomplishment but Cam's wins are the Safeway, Sanderson Farms, and the 3M. Not exactly Riv and Muirfield Village. Plus, he putted the lights out at both the Safeway and Sanderson wins to the tune of +2 SGP in each event. That is 8 shots a week on the greens alone! Classic case of a hot putter stealing an event. 

 

Regardless, I think that only emphasizes your point. His driving is truly a weapon. He's good enough on the greens. If Butch can cook up a DJ like improvement w/ the wedges, the dude could really compete. His missed cuts become top 50s. His top 50s become top 25s, Top 25s become top 10s, etc. A guy like that can stick around for a long time. 

[Titleist99]

11 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

A win on any tour is a hell of an accomplishment but Cam's wins are the Safeway, Sanderson Farms, and the 3M. Not exactly Riv and Muirfield Village. Plus, he putted the lights out at both the Safeway and Sanderson wins to the tune of +2 SGP in each event. That is 8 shots a week on the greens alone! Classic case of a hot putter stealing an event. 

 

Regardless, I think that only emphasizes your point. His driving is truly a weapon. He's good enough on the greens. If Butch can cook up a DJ like improvement w/ the wedges, the dude could really compete. His missed cuts become top 50s. His top 50s become top 25s, Top 25s become top 10s, etc. A guy like that can stick around for a long time. 

LOL!......I know that we're really agreeing somewhat, but I will never poo-poo on any PGAT victory no matter if it's an opposite field event or what because those guys are good. Cam checks out mentally sometimes, he should take a look at Scheffler some time and he'll see that perseverance is the key to winning.  If you have a bad hole, keep your head in the game until things turnaround. Scheffler is one of the best at that.

[mosesgolf]

19 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

A win on any tour is a hell of an accomplishment but Cam's wins are the Safeway, Sanderson Farms, and the 3M. Not exactly Riv and Muirfield Village. Plus, he putted the lights out at both the Safeway and Sanderson wins to the tune of +2 SGP in each event. That is 8 shots a week on the greens alone! Classic case of a hot putter stealing an event. 

 

Regardless, I think that only emphasizes your point. His driving is truly a weapon. He's good enough on the greens. If Butch can cook up a DJ like improvement w/ the wedges, the dude could really compete. His missed cuts become top 50s. His top 50s become top 25s, Top 25s become top 10s, etc. A guy like that can stick around for a long time. 

But Cam has done it 3 times.  Anyone who has 3 wins on Tour is special.  It's so hard to win out there.  Plus he is not done yet.

[Titleist99]

6 minutes ago, mosesgolf said:

But Cam has done it 3 times.  Anyone who has 3 wins on Tour is special.  It's so hard to win out there.  Plus he is not done yet.

100%. Now as a disclaimer: I use to use Cam Champs driving talents a lot to show that he drove the ball great distances and wasn't winning every week, but never did I minimize his accomplishments on the PGAT so far. I just don't think that he has the right coach to take hm to the next level.