Could you play a modern driver at 43"?

[Poor Mans Ty Webb]

On 4/19/2024 at 10:32 PM, rbpwrx said:

R7 Quad TP w/ Rogue Silver 70TX 125msi, etc

Now that’s a quirky cool setup. Love that shaft. Ironically, that’s one that, for me, really shines when you build it out past 45”.

 

I’ve got one in an SLDR 12* mini at 43” and it’s just so fun to hit. 

[Howard_Jones]

On 4/20/2024 at 1:38 PM, jblough99 said:

Ping driver heads are notoriously heavy vs the rest of the industry.  I doubt he added anywhere near 25 grams to that head.  The 430 max standard head weighs 206 grams with the standard 25 gram rear weight.  His playing length is basically at 3 wood length and a standard 3 wood head is around 215-218 grams, so we are only talking about 9-11 grams.  Seems like a 36 gram rear weight would be ideal.

Those weight ranges is not right
A driver has a "relative" high COG, so with the same head wgt and play length as a 3W, the driver will return a lower SW, since its COG will be close to where the crown is on the 3W 

Drivers is normally 203-208 grams (with the connector tip)
3W = 210-212 grams
4W = 215-217 grams
5W = 220-222 grams
7W = 228-230 grams

Drivers often has a face height of 55-57 mm, and COG slightly above the center (55/2 =  27-30 mm above leading edge, while a typical 3W (shallow face), often has a face height of only 35 mm, with COG about the middle, or right below (35/2 = 17.5 mm above the leading edge) That means shaft butt to COG becomes about 10-11 mm longer on a 3W when the clubs has the same PL,
and thats why the driver weight is so close to a 3W, even if its meant to be played longer

Edited April 21 by Howard_Jones

[jblough99]

11 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

Those weight ranges is not right
A driver has a "relative" high COG, so with the same head wgt and play length as a 3W, the driver will return a lower SW, since its COG will be close to where the crown is on the 3W 

Drivers is normally 203-208 grams (with the connector tip)
3W = 210-212 grams
4W = 215-217 grams
5W = 220-222 grams
7W = 228-230 grams

Drivers often has a face height of 55-57 mm, and COG slightly above the center (55/2 =  27-30 mm above leading edge, while a typical 3W (shallow face), often has a face height of only 35 mm, with COG about the middle, or right below (35/2 = 17.5 mm above the leading edge) That means shaft butt to COG becomes about 10-11 mm longer on a 3W when the clubs has the same PL,
and thats why the driver weight is so close to a 3W, even if its meant to be played longer

We are talking about Ping heads specifically not the industry standards.  As stated Ping heads run heavy compared to the “standard”.  Weights quoted directly from Pings website which includes the adapter as part of the head weight.

 

[Howard_Jones]

12 minutes ago, jblough99 said:

We are talking about Ping heads specifically not the industry standards.  As stated Ping heads run heavy compared to the “standard”.  Weights quoted directly from Pings website which includes the adapter as part of the head weight.

 

Its only the 3W thats outside the norm, and a very light 7W...so yes, they are not like others

[Mikey_HACKilroy]

Kudos to any folks that can swing a 460cc driver at 43" playing length; I struggled at 44" and just could not do it. Tried adjusting weight and everything; no dice. It felt like swinging a wiffle ball bat.

A mini-driver being much smaller would feel more like an old time oversized fairway wood, so it isn't really a surprise folks like that.

But a full sized head. Yuck! 😄 

 

[rbpwrx]

9 hours ago, Poor Mans Ty Webb said:

Now that’s a quirky cool setup. Love that shaft. Ironically, that’s one that, for me, really shines when you build it out past 45”.

 

I’ve got one in an SLDR 12* mini at 43” and it’s just so fun to hit. 

 

Dude, that combo took me years to arrive at. Both shaft and head. Head weight is, for me, what brings out the best in that shaft (which is probably similar to what happens when you go extra long - higher SW). But my R7Q is at about 213g, which is @ 3W weight. And at 44", I'm not much longer than modern 3W/ mini DR.

I'm working right now on taking that a step further. Heavy tipping, on shafts with some bend through the middle, into a head around 400cc. I was just auditioning a PX MX TX @ 60g fully inserted into a 905S bore-thru head. Similar profile to the Rogue 125. (Did you know you can actually swing a bore-thru without gluing anything up? Carefully, of course.) But I had the shaft sticking out the bottom, over 3" inserted, effectively a 2"+ tip. Could not miss with it.

Gonna hold my breath and actually tip that 60TX a full 2", stick it in a Tourstage 430cc head at 202g, and see what happens. Will butt trim later to taste. Fingers crossed!

EDIT: chickened out and only tipped it 1". Mostly b/c the Tour Stage adapter is 1.75" insertion, which only left a 1/2" at most of parallel section (you gotta leave something, or it'll Snap Off)! Test 2nite...
 

Edited April 21 by rbpwrx

[rbpwrx]

2 hours ago, Mikey_HACKilroy said:

Kudos to any folks that can swing a 460cc driver at 43" playing length; I struggled at 44" and just could not do it. Tried adjusting weight and everything; no dice. It felt like swinging a wiffle ball bat.

A mini-driver being much smaller would feel more like an old time oversized fairway wood, so it isn't really a surprise folks like that.

But a full sized head. Yuck! 😄 

 

Agreed. I like at around 400cc at 44". 300cc at 43". But you can sneak a little more volume in there if it's a deep-faced pear-shaped head. JDM is good for that.

[Stuart_G]

17 hours ago, jblough99 said:

We are talking about Ping heads specifically not the industry standards. 

 

I've played Ping drivers for a while now - G, G400, G425 - and all at 44"  (~D0).   I've never had to add more than 5-8 gm.   But I also play the standard balance point shafts instead of the stock CB shafts.

 

 

Edited April 22 by Stuart_G

[Nard_S]

19 hours ago, rbpwrx said:

I like at around 400cc at 44". 300cc at 43

Those are solid yard sticks to go by. At 460ccv, 44.5"is ideal shortest for me, at 400cc, 44'' works well too. I feel like I can swing fastest at 400cc. Think that's the perfect volume to work with for shortening driver shafts.

[Georgie Z]

I used to play driver at 44 and then switched to 45.5 in a new shaft. I saw a slight decrease in FH of about one extra fairway per round, but I gained about 10 yards on average. Will cut .75 and see how it goes in the middle. Has anyone had any success in rebalancing the club using a lightweight grip vs adding weight to the head?

[dsmil]

1 hour ago, Georgie Z said:

I used to play driver at 44 and then switched to 45.5 in a new shaft. I saw a slight decrease in FH of about one extra fairway per round, but I gained about 10 yards on average. Will cut .75 and see how it goes in the middle. Has anyone had any success in rebalancing the club using a lightweight grip vs adding weight to the head?

 

I don't think that swingweight adjustments are supposed to be made by changing grip weight.  If you want a higher or lighter total weight, go for it.  But changing the grip weight more or less tricks the swingweight scale.  I would just see how it feels and then add weight to the head if you need to.

[Spinozist]

5 hours ago, Georgie Z said:

I used to play driver at 44 and then switched to 45.5 in a new shaft. I saw a slight decrease in FH of about one extra fairway per round, but I gained about 10 yards on average. Will cut .75 and see how it goes in the middle. Has anyone had any success in rebalancing the club using a lightweight grip vs adding weight to the head?

 

4 hours ago, dsmil said:

 

I don't think that swingweight adjustments are supposed to be made by changing grip weight.  If you want a higher or lighter total weight, go for it.  But changing the grip weight more or less tricks the swingweight scale.  I would just see how it feels and then add weight to the head if you need to.

I'm gonna have to disagree with this, respectfully. I've had great success with light grips (20-30g) and having a close-to-normal swingweight on a short driver. I think that for most people, 20-30g less weight in the grip is very noticeable, and so it's just not true to say it it's just a swingweight trick. At any rate, I've had very good real-world succes doing this, and I know I'm not the only one.

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, Spinozist said:

I think that for most people, 20-30g less weight in the grip is very noticeable, and so it's just not true to say it it's just a swingweight trick.

 

The issue isn't whether it's noticeable - that much of a change in static weight is usually going to be very noticeable.  But that's not the same as saying it's fixing the swing weight.    Static weight and swing weight (really MOI of the club) are two different aspects of the weight.  They are not completely independent and sometimes can be used to compensate for the other being off.  But they are still not the same thing and generally contribute to the general "heft" feel very differently and for different parts of the swing.    So that it might be working for you is not surprising - the question though is what problem did it really fix?

 

For most "proper" fittings, the grip weight and shaft weight should be fit first - taking care of the question of static weight fit.  Then the swing weight fitting is really only a valid head weight fitting.    If you have everything fit perfectly for one playing length and want to change playing lengths by a reasonable amount - the only good variable to work with to adjust to the new length is the head weight.   That's the only way the swing weight concept was ever intended to used.  Bigger length changes might require the refitting of the shaft weight/static weight as well (e.g. like the jump from driver to fairways).

 

But as long as you get to something that works in the end - no matter how you got there - that's really all that matters.

 

 

[rbpwrx]

Picked up a Tensei CK Pro Orange 60TX for almost nothing on the Bay. Was cut short, figured I could extend the handle if I liked it. Someone must have had it in a fairway. Built up, it's 43". In a 400cc 188g head. Not a bad feel, and I like the 70TX in 3W, but I wasn't getting much distance out of it. Turns out it's tipped 2-1/4" or so! Same with the 70TX. Maybe the guy was doing an experiment. Anyway, with an extra inch in the handle and a head closer to 200g, it might feel better and fly further. We'll see.

 

 

[Spinozist]

On 4/24/2024 at 5:39 PM, Stuart_G said:

 

The issue isn't whether it's noticeable - that much of a change in static weight is usually going to be very noticeable.  But that's not the same as saying it's fixing the swing weight.    Static weight and swing weight (really MOI of the club) are two different aspects of the weight.  They are not completely independent and sometimes can be used to compensate for the other being off.  But they are still not the same thing and generally contribute to the general "heft" feel very differently and for different parts of the swing.    So that it might be working for you is not surprising - the question though is what problem did it really fix?

 

For most "proper" fittings, the grip weight and shaft weight should be fit first - taking care of the question of static weight fit.  Then the swing weight fitting is really only a valid head weight fitting.    If you have everything fit perfectly for one playing length and want to change playing lengths by a reasonable amount - the only good variable to work with to adjust to the new length is the head weight.   That's the only way the swing weight concept was ever intended to used.  Bigger length changes might require the refitting of the shaft weight/static weight as well (e.g. like the jump from driver to fairways).

 

But as long as you get to something that works in the end - no matter how you got there - that's really all that matters.

 

 

...well I think that part of the problem is that almost everyone defaults to using a 50g grip. So typically people don't have any idea how a significantly lighter grip would work for them.

[rbpwrx]

1 hour ago, Spinozist said:

...well I think that part of the problem is that almost everyone defaults to using a 50g grip. So typically people don't have any idea how a significantly lighter grip would work for them.

 

Or heavier. I usually play midsize StarGrips, which are 63g, but I sometimes switch out for Jumbos, which are 75g. The Jumbos *definitely* give me a counterbalanced feel, and I don't think anybody's tricking anyone. The handle is literally heavier, which for me makes it easier to lead the swing with the butt end of the club. I just call that physics.

 

Edited April 26 by rbpwrx

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, Spinozist said:

...well I think that part of the problem is that almost everyone defaults to using a 50g grip. So typically people don't have any idea how a significantly lighter grip would work for them.

 

That's true about many aspects of a proper fitting.   The vast majority of am's just play stock, off the shelf clubs.

 

But grip selection should (almost) never be about weight.  It should always be about size and comfort and getting the most secure feel with the least amount of forearm and grip tension.   Then the static weight of the shaft should then be further managed with the shaft weight.

 

9 minutes ago, rbpwrx said:

The handle is literally heavier, which for me makes it easier to lead the swing with the butt end of the club. I just call that physics.

 

I don't doubt that it feels that way and glad you found something that does that for you. 

 

The physics says more weight in the handle might give you more feedback to what the handle is doing independent of what the rest of the club might be doing (or really how you are accelerating the handle or hands).   But it's up to the player to utilize that feedback to change the swing - the extra mass in the handle wont do anything by itself.   Or it's even feasible that the extra feedback just might give more confidence in the existing motion.  Hard to say.

 

Edited April 26 by Stuart_G

[HeftyLefty5]

I'm starting my journey on the second driver of the bag at 43". I'm left handed so sometimes options can suck but I was able to find an AD DI shaft from a 3 wood pull and Callaway Rogue Max D head. I need this to be a draw club in my bag because i swear to god as a lefty they make golf courses for slicing righties, that said my qi10LS isn't gona draw a ball any time soon so here I am gona test a new tee club!

[rbpwrx]

1 hour ago, HeftyLefty5 said:

I'm starting my journey on the second driver of the bag at 43". I'm left handed so sometimes options can suck but I was able to find an AD DI shaft from a 3 wood pull and Callaway Rogue Max D head. I need this to be a draw club in my bag because i swear to god as a lefty they make golf courses for slicing righties, that said my qi10LS isn't gona draw a ball any time soon so here I am gona test a new tee club!

Now that's a band name: the Slicing Righties!

[HeftyLefty5]

3 minutes ago, rbpwrx said:

Now that's a band name: the Slicing Righties!

 

I bet they put on one hell of a bender! 🤣

[Mikey_HACKilroy]

Frankly, I think a lot of folks overlook the larger grip's most attractive feature; surface area. Swing weight is impacted not just by actual weight, but by overall feel and a stronger grip (more frictional resistance) is going to provide more stability which at least in my opinion should alter the feel of the club. For a larger hand size, a jumbo grip could even enhance it further. Smaller hands would probably feel less secure (thus the club heavier).

Back when I changed to mid-sized grips I noticed more stability thanks to the larger grip in my hands. The weight next to the old ones was about 15g heavier, but I'd be lying if I said I held them in my hands and noticed. 15g is not that heavy. It's 3 hundredths of a pound; 15 thousandths of a kilo.

It isn't to say weight has nothing to do with it, but I think folks don't consider surface area enough. It is an extremely important part of the equation here.

 

But back to the topic in hand, if somebody here did successfully utilize a 43" 460cc driver, I'd like to know what set-up (weight of head and shaft particularly). I measured my 2W shaft in the driver with the new golf ruler and it came out to 44-¼" long; so even that one would need to be cut down... LOL

Swinging it at 44-1/4" was as I said before... very odd to me. 😄 

[Louis_Posture]

21 hours ago, Spinozist said:

...well I think that part of the problem is that almost everyone defaults to using a 50g grip. So typically people don't have any idea how a significantly lighter grip would work for them.

You are correct, installing a lighter (or heavier) grip does produce a significantly different balance to the golf club.

[Stuart_G]

2 hours ago, Mikey_HACKilroy said:

Frankly, I think a lot of folks overlook the larger grip's most attractive feature; surface area.

 

That's because it isn't really a factor.  Contact surface area is determined (and limited) by the size of your hand and the way you take your grip - not by the diameter of the grip.   At least as long as it doesn't become so small that you start to overlap where you wouldn't normally overlap.  Most will have the same contact surface area on a oversize grip as they do on a standard size grip.   The difference is going to be all about how much force (and grip tension) the player feels they need for the level of comfort the size provides.  

 

But if you just look at the importance of size to the comfort level one has with the grip (instead of surface area) the rest of your post is right on track.   Grip size can be very important in determining the level of control one might have on the club.

 

 

[Mikey_HACKilroy]

14 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

That's because it isn't really a factor.  Contact surface area is determined (and limited) by the size of your hand and the way you take your grip - not by the diameter of the grip.   At least as long as it doesn't become so small that you start to overlap where you wouldn't normally overlap.  Most will have the same contact surface area on a oversize grip as they do on a standard size grip.   The difference is going to be all about how much force (and grip tension) the player feels they need for the level of comfort the size provides.  

 

But if you just look at the importance of size to the comfort level one has with the grip (instead of surface area) the rest of your post is right on track.   Grip size can be very important in determining the level of control one might have on the club.

 

I suppose I didn't do a good job getting my thoughts down, but I wasn't suggesting more surface area as a static condition. It's relative to the hand size of the golfer - the only reason I think someone should change grip size.

 

So my rhetorical question is more suggesting that the larger sized grip for someone who has larger hands suitable for a mid-sized grip will have a more stable grip than they had with a standard. That gives better control, and thus should enable them to swing faster, which implies a lighter feel to the club.

Though, a guy with small hands suitable for undersized grips would likely be challenged with Mid-Sized grips and I feel like that might actually make the club feel heavier if they don't have a secure grip. Thus, the surface area I am referring to assumes the right amount for the hand size.

[Louis_Posture]

On 4/24/2024 at 8:54 AM, dsmil said:

But changing the grip weight more or less tricks the swingweight scale. .

That is an absurd myth started on the internet sites 20 years ago by a few club repair guys who don't like to focus on swing weight (because it means more work for them). So they wrote nonsense posts like "grip weight tricks the swing weight scale" or "a swing weight point is equal to the weight of a dollar bill", and forum participants read this commentary and started spreading the same misinformation.

Anybody who doubts that grip weight influences the balance of the club should install a significantly heavier (or lighter) grip on a putter , wedge, iron, metal wood etc... and when they swing the club should detect a very noticeable difference to how it feels when swung. 

[dsmil]

11 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

That is an absurd myth started on the internet sites 20 years ago by a few club repair guys who don't like to focus on swing weight (because it means more work for them). So they wrote nonsense posts like "grip weight tricks the swing weight scale" or "a swing weight point is equal to the weight of a dollar bill", and forum participants read this commentary and started spreading the same misinformation.

Anybody who doubts that grip weight influences the balance of the club should install a significantly heavier (or lighter) grip on a putter , wedge, iron, metal wood etc... and when they swing the club should detect a very noticeable difference to how it feels when swung. 

I don’t doubt that you’ll feel a difference if you change grip weight dramatically. You will feel a difference because you’ve completely changed the weight of the club. But if someone is talking about cutting 2+ inches off a driver and wants it to feel similar to what they’re used to, adding height weight followed by shaft weight makes more sense. If you take 2+ inches off a club and then throw on an ultralight grip, you are nowhere close to where you started.

Edited April 27 by dsmil

[Stuart_G]

2 hours ago, Louis_Posture said:

Anybody who doubts that grip weight influences the balance of the club ...

 

The problem with this train of thought is that the main point of swing weight is not about balance.    Balance is simply a intermediate tool used by the swing weight system - under very specific and limited contexts - to help adjust head weight based on length changes to give a similar feeling "heft".   MOI matching was the original motivation although trial and error testing of the device refined the design beyond just that.

 

I personally never liked the phrase "tricks the scale" - since the scale was never intended to be used in that way.  It's really tricking the user of the scale for not understanding how it should be used.

 

It's not that grip weight changes should be ignored (although they frequently can - just not always), it's that what the scale reports about grip weight changes should be ignored - or really can't be trusted.   And one should revert back to trial and error fitting of the head weight for the new grip weight first before they can use the scale for the new grip weight.

 

[Louis_Posture]

1 minute ago, Stuart_G said:

 

The problem with this train of thought is that the main point of swing weight is not about balance.   

 

The entire point and, or reason for swing weight is to provide a  measurement for  how a club feels when it is swung.

The swing weight scale is 100 years old and at the time as well as now the definition of swing weight is: " This measurement was invented  to describe the dynamic feel of a golf club as the player swings it."

[Louis_Posture]

2 hours ago, dsmil said:

I don’t doubt that you’ll feel a difference if you change grip weight dramatically. You will feel a difference because you’ve completely changed the weight of the club. But if someone is talking about cutting 2+ inches off a driver and wants it to feel similar to what they’re used to, adding height weight followed by shaft weight makes more sense. If you take 2+ inches off a club and then throw on an ultralight grip, you are nowhere close to where you started.

2" shaft length reduction is 12 swing weight points.

To recapture that swing weight would require adding 24 grams of weight to the head, or reducing grip weight by approximately 80 grams, neither of which is practical and, or a good sense idea.

43" driver shaft length balanced finished club drivers were made of heavy wooden heads matched to heavy steel shafts.  The current light weight 460CC heads titanium heads and graphite shafts are not a good sense fit for 43" finished clubs.

[dsmil]

2 hours ago, Louis_Posture said:

2" shaft length reduction is 12 swing weight points.

To recapture that swing weight would require adding 24 grams of weight to the head, or reducing grip weight by approximately 80 grams, neither of which is practical and, or a good sense idea.

 

Recapturing all of the swing weight isn’t what I’m recommending. I would try to get the club to feel as close as it did before, regardless of what the swingweight scale says. 
 

10g of weight to the head and a 10g heavier shaft would probably feel a lot closer to the original club than any attempt to get the club back to a D2.