Could you play a modern driver at 43"?

[gentles]

4 hours ago, Louis_Posture said:

The entire point and, or reason for swing weight is to provide a  measurement for  how a club feels when it is swung.

The swing weight scale is 100 years old and at the time as well as now the definition of swing weight is: " This measurement was invented  to describe the dynamic feel of a golf club as the player swings it."

 

If you build up two drivers at 45 inches, one with a 50 gram shaft and light headweight and light grip, and then the other has an 80 gram shaft with a high balance point, a heavier grip, and a way heavier head, and both have a swingweight of D2 do you think these drivers would have the same "dynamic feel" when I swing them?

[Stuart_G]

13 hours ago, Louis_Posture said:

The entire point and, or reason for swing weight is to provide a  measurement for  how a club feels when it is swung.

The swing weight scale is 100 years old and at the time as well as now the definition of swing weight is: " This measurement was invented  to describe the dynamic feel of a golf club as the player swings it."

 

Yes I know.  But you probably don't realize you're making my point for me.  Balance is a static characteristic of an object, not a dynamic characteristic.    The important dynamic characteristics are the total mass and the second moment of inertia (MOI).

 

Also, if you read the patent more closely, it is explicit that length and head weight are the only two quantities it was designed to manage.  Changing grip weight is not a valid option for adjustment if you plan on using the scale as it was designed to be used.

 

 If the implement, when examined according to the original procedure, has been found to have somewhat too great a reading, two methods of adjustment to match the implement with which it is being compared are available; weight may be removed from the remote end of the implement, or the handle itself may be shortened.

If the implement as measured by the original procedure has been found to have too small a reading, the method of adjustment is 'to load the remote end with additional Weight

Edited April 28 by Stuart_G

[Louis_Posture]

11 hours ago, gentles said:

 

If you build up two drivers at 45 inches, one with a 50 gram shaft and light headweight and light grip, and then the other has an 80 gram shaft with a high balance point, a heavier grip, and a way heavier head, and both have a swingweight of D2 do you think these drivers would have the same "dynamic feel" when I swing them?

Approximately 15 years ago Cleveland Golf produced super light line (s) of clubs and the driver specs were similar to the first driver you've described. The components  of the second driver you've described I believe would make hard to achieve at a D2 swing weight, but could be done if the head and grip each had the appropriate weight to make it happen.

The answer to your question is yes; the two drivers having the same swing weight would have the same feeling of balance when swung. Remember, a club's balance (swing weight) is different from its static-dead weight. 

[Louis_Posture]

3 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

.  Changing grip weight is not a valid option for adjustment if you plan on using the scale as it was designed to be used.

 

If the goal is to produce a finished club that will feel balanced when swung then changes to grip weight is absolutely a "valid option".

Consider that 15 years ago Cleveland ordered from Lamkin 25, 36, and 46  gram grips to fit with the company's ultra light line (s) of clubs. And a putter head weights have increased from 310 grams to 330 to 350 to 380 to 400 grams etc... the grip manufacturers have increased putter grip weights from 50 grams to more than 100 grams. 

[NRJyzr]

19 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

The answer to your question is yes; the two drivers having the same swing weight would have the same feeling of balance when swung.

 

Having been down this road, I do not agree...

 

[Louis_Posture]

1 minute ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Having been down this road, I do not agree...

 

Comparing swing weight to static weight is a separate subject from this thread, but I do believe most players trying a 460 CC head size head fitted to an 80 gram graphite shaft for a 43" finished length driver do not like it.

[Stuart_G]

8 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

If the goal is to produce a finished club that will feel balanced when swung then changes to grip weight is absolutely a "valid option".

 

Not according to the person who invented and patented the concept.  

 

And no, a "balanced feel" is not the goal.   The goal is to obtain a similar "heft" between two clubs.   You don't feel balance when swinging, you feel resistance to acceleration.   That's just basic physics.

[dsmil]

We’re off the rails here. The OP wants to cut down 2 inches and said nothing about wanting a lighter driver. My 10-year son’s driver might be a D2 with normal “balance”.

[gentles]

5 hours ago, dsmil said:

We’re off the rails here. The OP wants to cut down 2 inches and said nothing about wanting a lighter driver. My 10-year son’s driver might be a D2 with normal “balance”.

Disagree - swingweight is the primary consideration when cutting down a driver that much so it’s inevitable that this will be the focus of the convo 

[Spinozist]

On 4/27/2024 at 5:36 PM, Louis_Posture said:

2" shaft length reduction is 12 swing weight points.

To recapture that swing weight would require adding 24 grams of weight to the head, or reducing grip weight by approximately 80 grams, neither of which is practical and, or a good sense idea.

43" driver shaft length balanced finished club drivers were made of heavy wooden heads matched to heavy steel shafts.  The current light weight 460CC heads titanium heads and graphite shafts are not a good sense fit for 43" finished clubs.

...you say this as if you can't simultaneously add head weight and reduce the grip weight. The Winn lightweight grips are like 20g, so that's 30 grams from the grip. Then you only have to add 12 grams to the head. And just to add on, there's the option of putting some tungsten powder down the shaft and corking it if you don't have adjustable weights in the driver head. So in reality it is totally practical, actually quite easy, and would probably be a very good sense idea for many, because amateurs are losing most of their shots from wayward driver shots into the woods.

[Louis_Posture]

4 hours ago, Spinozist said:

...you say this as if you can't simultaneously add head weight and reduce the grip weight. The Winn lightweight grips are like 20g, so that's 30 grams from the grip. Then you only have to add 12 grams to the head. And just to add on, there's the option of putting some tungsten powder down the shaft and corking it if you don't have adjustable weights in the driver head. So in reality it is totally practical, actually quite easy, and would probably be a very good sense idea for many, because amateurs are losing most of their shots from wayward driver shots into the woods.

A super light 22 gram Winn grip will only decrease swing weight by 3 points. So for the 43" finished length 460CC driver the head weight will still need to increase by 18 grams, which makes the finished club too head heavy. Once can reduce the head-heavy feel by increasing shaft weight, but the finished club will have such a heavy dead weight that most players will not enjoy swinging it.

If someone wants to play a modern metal head with graphite shaft 43" club that is a 3-wood.

Also, TaylorMade is producing a 300CC mini driver weighted to be played at 43.75", which is close to the OP's desire for a 43" driver.

[rbpwrx]

12 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

 

Also, TaylorMade is producing a 300CC mini driver weighted to be played at 43.75", which is close to the OP's desire for a 43" driver.

Do we know the weights of the components in that Taylormade mini? I'd be curious.

[jholz]

Man, lead tape and a driving range are your best friends for figuring this out.

 

Hack it down, hit balls and apply weight until it does what you want it to. 

 

If you want to go the extra mile from there, you could have a reputable club builder measure the specs for you providing a baseline for future purchases. 

 

 

 

[rbpwrx]

3 minutes ago, jholz said:

Man, lead tape and a driving range are your best friends for figuring this out.

 

Hack it down, hit balls and apply weight until it does what you want it to. 

 

If you want to go the extra mile from there, you could have a reputable club builder measure the specs for you providing a baseline for future purchases. 

that doesn't give him shaft weight or tipping

[jholz]

44 minutes ago, rbpwrx said:

that doesn't give him shaft weight or tipping

 

I would consider tipping as a separate issue and something that should be known regardless. 

 

Shaft weight I look at similarly. I mean you should know the weight of the shaft from OEM specs or a static weight during the build process. If you want to determine the weight of the shaft after it has been cut, you can weigh it before installing an adapter...

 

Or it the adapter is already installed, just weigh the 2" section that has been removed and do a little math. 

 

[rbpwrx]

54 minutes ago, jholz said:

 

I would consider tipping as a separate issue and something that should be known regardless. 

 

Shaft weight I look at similarly. I mean you should know the weight of the shaft from OEM specs or a static weight during the build process. If you want to determine the weight of the shaft after it has been cut, you can weigh it before installing an adapter...

 

Or it the adapter is already installed, just weigh the 2" section that has been removed and do a little math. 

i'm no professional, but in my limited experience, every factor factors in to the mysterious playability, or not, of a given club.

 

Is the shaft 70g raw? Or is it actually 78g? Where is the bend point? What's the profile like? What's the torque like? How heavy is the head? where are the head weights positioned? How much tip section is left? what's the tip to handle stiffness ratio? What grips do they play? How heavy are they? How fat are they? What about tape? Etc.

 

I have found that nothing is ever as simple as it seems on paper. And even if I know the head weight, shaft weight, length, and grip that generally work for me, I can build up  clubs to those same exact specs with different shafts or different heads and get totally different results.

 

I guess I'm saying the more data points the better. YMMV!

[5hort5tuff]

On 4/28/2024 at 10:10 AM, Louis_Posture said:

If the goal is to produce a finished club that will feel balanced when swung then changes to grip weight is absolutely a "valid option".

Consider that 15 years ago Cleveland ordered from Lamkin 25, 36, and 46  gram grips to fit with the company's ultra light line (s) of clubs. And a putter head weights have increased from 310 grams to 330 to 350 to 380 to 400 grams etc... the grip manufacturers have increased putter grip weights from 50 grams to more than 100 grams. 

 

Changing the grip to adjust swing weight is not a good option at all when you are shooting for a specific SW. I think it is the worst way to match SW on a club. 

 

Changing the Grip weight to achieve a different feel in general can be achieved...but I think this is most important with putters because of the grip shape too.  

[jholz]

1 hour ago, rbpwrx said:

i'm no professional, but in my limited experience, every factor factors in to the mysterious playability, or not, of a given club.

 

Is the shaft 70g raw? Or is it actually 78g? Where is the bend point? What's the profile like? What's the torque like? How heavy is the head? where are the head weights positioned? How much tip section is left? what's the tip to handle stiffness ratio? What grips do they play? How heavy are they? How fat are they? What about tape? Etc.

 

I have found that nothing is ever as simple as it seems on paper. And even if I know the head weight, shaft weight, length, and grip that generally work for me, I can build up  clubs to those same exact specs with different shafts or different heads and get totally different results.

 

I guess I'm saying the more data points the better. YMMV!

 

I'm no professional either and I agree that the data is extremely important. But I only fit for myself and don't have any tools to truly measure much beyond length.

 

So, I take educated guesses and tinker to get things to work.

 

I think both approaches have their benefit. In an ideal world, I'd have both.

 

[Nobody2]

For anyone saying don’t do this or it’s a bad idea bc the driver want meant to be played short, likely hasn’t tried it. I know it was mentioned, but If Marty Jertson, a ping engineer who has played 5-6 majors, says his anti anxiety club is a g430 max/12*/42.75”/d4, 3 wood replacement, I’d say it’s very doable and could be a great club. Sounds like a fun experiment. 

[rbpwrx]

I've been playing a 400cc Tourstage with a 60TX CKPO at 43 inches for a few weeks now. Great club! Hope I don't have to remind anyone that 43 inches used to be standard driver length when we all played 130g steel just a few billion years ago.