Do I need different irons or just different shafts?

[Joesti]

Over the last 3-4 months I have been overhauling my swing big time. I was way taking the club way to far back, flipping at impact, like 5-6 degrees in to out, and picking the ball, 1 degree down. I struggled with high ball flight and spin. Now my swing with 7 iron is 1-2 in to out, 5 degrees down, ss 86-88 mph. I now have the opposite issues with ball flight. My 7 iron launch angle is roughly 16 degrees, peak height 90ft, descent angle around 44-45, spin 5300-5500 off a mat. Im finding that I cant hold a green nearly as well anymore. Im already playing a chrome tour x to bring my spin up. Current gamer irons are mizuno pro 243 with modus 120 stiff shafts. I want to get some more height. I have absolutely no chance at stopping my long irons right now. I already bent this set 2 degrees weak. Should I try a different shaft or just get re-fit for another set? I wouldn't be opposed to something with a thinner sole if I do go to another set. Give me some opinions!

[shortgameneedswork]

I really like what Ian at TXG has always echoed about changing shafts vs heads. The shafts are more of a timing device. Is your strike consistent? I wouldn't mess with the shafts then. The heads are already putting in as much as they probably are capable of and they aren't power lofted very much but there are still other options to play weaker lofts. 

 

I would continue with golf ball testing. Congrats on the swing change though. 

 

Also, just to check given those numbers, your grooves are super clean right? You aren't getting these numbers after a muddy day or a dirt track? 

[Pepperturbo]

6 hours ago, Joesti said:

Over the last 3-4 months I have been overhauling my swing big time. I was way taking the club way to far back, flipping at impact, like 5-6 degrees in to out, and picking the ball, 1 degree down. I struggled with high ball flight and spin. Now my swing with 7 iron is 1-2 in to out, 5 degrees down, ss 86-88 mph. I now have the opposite issues with ball flight. My 7 iron launch angle is roughly 16 degrees, peak height 90ft, descent angle around 44-45, spin 5300-5500 off a mat. Im finding that I cant hold a green nearly as well anymore. Im already playing a chrome tour x to bring my spin up. Current gamer irons are mizuno pro 243 with modus 120 stiff shafts. I want to get some more height. I have absolutely no chance at stopping my long irons right now. I already bent this set 2 degrees weak. Should I try a different shaft or just get re-fit for another set? I wouldn't be opposed to something with a thinner sole if I do go to another set. Give me some opinions!

Let's be positive... You have a good set of irons & shafts, and you've mastered DB LM lingo. 🤣  If your self-assessment is correct, it's more than likey your swing.  

 

As I said in another thread; yesterday, I played 17 holes of what I refer to as crappy golf ball striking before discovering on the 18th tee, I was swinging the club with a chicken wing.  I knew it wasn't my new T100 irons, had to be me, only it took 17 holes for me to see the culprit.  When I acknowledged it was my swing's fault, adjusted, I smacked a beautiful 2 iron down the right side of a long Par 4, then a 2nd 2 iron fade around the dogleg right, short of the green, a solid baby pitch to 10' and made the putt.  Of 18, 1 one hole of pure ball striking.

Edited May 6 by Pepperturbo

[RSLP]

This is GolfWRX, so the solution is buy new clubs

[robbie91]

The irons that you have are pretty middle of the road in terms of launch and spin. It's unlikely that changing shafts or heads, without going to something very drastic, is going to make a major dent in the numbers. The numbers also aren't that far off. Hitting of a mat, it would be good to see about 500-750 rpm increase in spin and 3-4 degrees in peak height. I'd guess that this is something that a minor swing tweak could take care of. 

[Magicmarker7551]

The “x” model of prov1 claims to be higher spin but in the majority of instances I’ve seen it tested, it spun less (and launched higher) vs the regular prov1. I know you referenced chrome tour x, but it may be worth experimenting with some of the softer balls just to see how they react off the irons for you. 

 

Also, when you say that you’re not holding greens, are you trying to land the ball hole high or are you trying to carry it to a shorter number and allow it to pitch and release to the hole from there?

 

 

[Joesti]

14 hours ago, Magicmarker7551 said:

The “x” model of prov1 claims to be higher spin but in the majority of instances I’ve seen it tested, it spun less (and launched higher) vs the regular prov1. I know you referenced chrome tour x, but it may be worth experimenting with some of the softer balls just to see how they react off the irons for you. 

 

Also, when you say that you’re not holding greens, are you trying to land the ball hole high or are you trying to carry it to a shorter number and allow it to pitch and release to the hole from there?

 

 

Im holding them ok with my scoring irons, once I get to about the 7 iron I have to basically hit the very front of the green if I want to have a hope of holding. Sunday I landed a well hit 7 iron middle of the green and the ball ended up 10 ft off the back. Green wasn't sloped away or anything. Probably 15-20ft of green the ball rolled through then 10 ft of rough. Last season I could hit the green with a 7 iron and the ball be 5 ft away from the pitch mark.

[Streuner]

For me the Modus 120 is already producing a high ball flight. I like it that way, but I have no idea what shaft should you pick for a significant higher ball flight… tinker with golf balls or you have to think about different irons. 

[Joesti]

16 minutes ago, Streuner said:

For me the Modus 120 is already producing a high ball flight. I like it that way, but I have no idea what shaft should you pick for a significant higher ball flight… tinker with golf balls or you have to think about different irons. 

I have been testing a few different balls on my simulator and nothing seems to get much higher than the chrome tour x. My runner up has been the bridgestone tour bxs. I have tested prov1, tp5, regular chromesoft, prov1x, and vice pro. Im thinking at this point i may just go back in for a full iron fitting again just to see if it actually would make the difference.

[Magicmarker7551]

11 hours ago, Joesti said:

I have been testing a few different balls on my simulator and nothing seems to get much higher than the chrome tour x. My runner up has been the bridgestone tour bxs. I have tested prov1, tp5, regular chromesoft, prov1x, and vice pro. Im thinking at this point i may just go back in for a full iron fitting again just to see if it actually would make the difference.

12 hours ago, Joesti said:

Im holding them ok with my scoring irons, once I get to about the 7 iron I have to basically hit the very front of the green if I want to have a hope of holding. Sunday I landed a well hit 7 iron middle of the green and the ball ended up 10 ft off the back. Green wasn't sloped away or anything. Probably 15-20ft of green the ball rolled through then 10 ft of rough. Last season I could hit the green with a 7 iron and the ball be 5 ft away from the pitch mark.

In my experience from what I’ve seen with premium balls, the ones that launch the highest tend to spin less. The way the ball is reacting when it hits the green is also more reflective of a lack of spin (and not a lack of height) in my opinion. I would find a ball that spins more, even if it costs you some height, and try that on the course. If that doesn’t correct the issue I would start thinking about shafts that are considered more “high spin” even if they may launch a bit lower.

[Gohigh]

Try stiffer shafts. 

[Joesti]

On 5/6/2024 at 3:04 PM, shortgameneedswork said:

I really like what Ian at TXG has always echoed about changing shafts vs heads. The shafts are more of a timing device. Is your strike consistent? I wouldn't mess with the shafts then. The heads are already putting in as much as they probably are capable of and they aren't power lofted very much but there are still other options to play weaker lofts. 

 

I would continue with golf ball testing. Congrats on the swing change though. 

 

Also, just to check given those numbers, your grooves are super clean right? You aren't getting these numbers after a muddy day or a dirt track? 

I clean my grooves in between every shot on course. Im a pretty good ball striker. I have a simulator in my garage and I hit probably 1000-1500 balls a week on it. I don't have an issue finding the middle with these shafts. Also I did bend them 2 degrees weak as well so my 7 iron is 34 degrees currently. Seems like no matter how much you improve there is always something else that needs fixed😅

[North Butte]

In my humble opinion, things like "different ball" or "different shaft" are great for fine-tuning your general tendencies. But I doubt anyone playing a top-quality ball and a set of irons that fit him well is going to make a major/meaningful/obvious kind of improvement in green holding ability from an equipment tweak. Something like 9/10 of that is determined by your swing and course conditions, at best you can fiddle around with the other 1/10 by going full-on gear optimization. 

 

Of course (and this is why my opinion is "humble") depending no what you're trying to get out of your golf game, another few percent might be worth chasing. But you'd have to be playing at a pretty high level for the difference between stopping a 7-iron shot in 10 feet versus 15 feet to pay off to any great extent. 

[LongShanks42069]

Sounds to me like a swing issue and probably coming in to steep and chopping down on the ball. Are you using an instructor or just doing this on your own?

[Joesti]

6 hours ago, LongShanks42069 said:

Sounds to me like a swing issue and probably coming in to steep and chopping down on the ball. Are you using an instructor or just doing this on your own?

It definitely could be a swing issue.  I had 10 lessons last season then did a lot of work over winter myself. I may go seek a new swing coach this season to see if its something in my swing.

[Nobody2]

I agree with most of the sentiment about the issue being the swing, and short of going to a blade or true cb, the only thing you could try is a shaft with a different profile. I don’t have issues launching the modus 120x, but it is a tip stiff shaft and you may get more dynamic launch, and subsequently more height and spin, with a softer tip shaft. Almost every shaft I’ve tried increases spin over the modus 120. It’s also so swing dependent, I will spin a x100 500rpms more than the modus but it’s a tip stiff shaft. 
 

out of curiosity, what is your AoA? 

[Joesti]

13 hours ago, Nobody2 said:

I agree with most of the sentiment about the issue being the swing, and short of going to a blade or true cb, the only thing you could try is a shaft with a different profile. I don’t have issues launching the modus 120x, but it is a tip stiff shaft and you may get more dynamic launch, and subsequently more height and spin, with a softer tip shaft. Almost every shaft I’ve tried increases spin over the modus 120. It’s also so swing dependent, I will spin a x100 500rpms more than the modus but it’s a tip stiff shaft. 
 

out of curiosity, what is your AoA? 

My typical angle of attack now with a 7 iron is 4-5 down. Im not opposed to going back to a blade. I was playing mizuno pro221 irons last season and I kin of miss them for this reason. They were drop and stop on the green.

[BraxtonFullerton]

I would tinker with the 120X is the obvious place to start and even something like a TourV/C-Taper and see how you like the feel/react to those shafts. As for spinnier balls, I see you already tried the Bridgestone, not too many more places to go, maybe the Wilson Staff X or hell, if you really need the extra spin, Kirkland.

 

 

[jah7838]

On 5/6/2024 at 8:22 AM, Joesti said:

Over the last 3-4 months I have been overhauling my swing big time. I was way taking the club way to far back, flipping at impact, like 5-6 degrees in to out, and picking the ball, 1 degree down. I struggled with high ball flight and spin. Now my swing with 7 iron is 1-2 in to out, 5 degrees down, ss 86-88 mph. I now have the opposite issues with ball flight. My 7 iron launch angle is roughly 16 degrees, peak height 90ft, descent angle around 44-45, spin 5300-5500 off a mat. Im finding that I cant hold a green nearly as well anymore. Im already playing a chrome tour x to bring my spin up. Current gamer irons are mizuno pro 243 with modus 120 stiff shafts. I want to get some more height. I have absolutely no chance at stopping my long irons right now. I already bent this set 2 degrees weak. Should I try a different shaft or just get re-fit for another set? I wouldn't be opposed to something with a thinner sole if I do go to another set. Give me some opinions!

Your swing speed, path and AoA are very similar to mine, as well as the peak height, but I don't have those issues of holding the greens with my irons.  My decent angle is pretty similar as well, but the difference in number for me is spin.  I spin the ball 500-1000 rpms more than you do.  I have different irons (ZX7) and different shafts (DG AMT White s300), but I can hold most greens that I play on.  I've also played the ZX7 MKII irons with 120 $ Taper, and they spun a tad less than the AMT Whites, but launched a little bit higher.  I also mainly play the Taylormade TP5 ball.  (5- 23*, 6- 29*; 7- 33*, 8- 37*, 9-41*, P-45*)

 

The only time I really struggled with holding greens was when I played the new PGA Frisco course late last summer.  The greens were hard, fast and newer, so I had to play for the release all the way down to my 8 iron.  Other than that, it's not really an issue for me where I play.  If I do get release on some greens, it's less than 10 feet.  A different shaft fit and head combo might create some more spin.  Maybe paying for a shaft fitting and then reshafting your current heads might be more economical if you don't want to buy a whole new set of clubs, especially if you like the heads you're currently using.  

[Joesti]

23 hours ago, jah7838 said:

Your swing speed, path and AoA are very similar to mine, as well as the peak height, but I don't have those issues of holding the greens with my irons.  My decent angle is pretty similar as well, but the difference in number for me is spin.  I spin the ball 500-1000 rpms more than you do.  I have different irons (ZX7) and different shafts (DG AMT White s300), but I can hold most greens that I play on.  I've also played the ZX7 MKII irons with 120 $ Taper, and they spun a tad less than the AMT Whites, but launched a little bit higher.  I also mainly play the Taylormade TP5 ball.  (5- 23*, 6- 29*; 7- 33*, 8- 37*, 9-41*, P-45*)

 

The only time I really struggled with holding greens was when I played the new PGA Frisco course late last summer.  The greens were hard, fast and newer, so I had to play for the release all the way down to my 8 iron.  Other than that, it's not really an issue for me where I play.  If I do get release on some greens, it's less than 10 feet.  A different shaft fit and head combo might create some more spin.  Maybe paying for a shaft fitting and then reshafting your current heads might be more economical if you don't want to buy a whole new set of clubs, especially if you like the heads you're currently using.  

Thanks for this! I should probably go get refit then since my swing is so different than when i got fit for these 243 irons. If i could get my spin up 5-800 rpm im sure it would make a big difference!

[jah7838]

2 hours ago, Joesti said:

Thanks for this! I should probably go get refit then since my swing is so different than when i got fit for these 243 irons. If i could get my spin up 5-800 rpm im sure it would make a big difference!

I think this is probably the best route to go by.  Since your swing has changed, there is probably a better fit shaft for how you now load and deliver the shaft in a way to get the flight and spin you're looking for.  Changing the ball might help a little bit, but that could tricky if you're constantly trying different balls and trying to play consistent golf.  

[Joesti]

On 5/10/2024 at 1:47 PM, jah7838 said:

I think this is probably the best route to go by.  Since your swing has changed, there is probably a better fit shaft for how you now load and deliver the shaft in a way to get the flight and spin you're looking for.  Changing the ball might help a little bit, but that could tricky if you're constantly trying different balls and trying to play consistent golf.  

Went and hit a bunch of different irons today. Found out I absolutely love the feel of dynamic gold x100 shafts. 2 irons really stood out. Ping blueprint s and cobra cb. Both got my spin into the 6100-6300 area with about 1-2 more degrees descent angle. Tried both of them with the x100. It’s gunna be a tough decision on what to go with. Like the looks of the pings better and they were about 200 more rpm spin but I think I was slightly more consistent with the cobras and man oh man do the cobra cb irons feel sweet! 

[Cwebb]

1 hour ago, Joesti said:

Went and hit a bunch of different irons today. Found out I absolutely love the feel of dynamic gold x100 shafts. 2 irons really stood out. Ping blueprint s and cobra cb. Both got my spin into the 6100-6300 area with about 1-2 more degrees descent angle. Tried both of them with the x100. It’s gunna be a tough decision on what to go with. Like the looks of the pings better and they were about 200 more rpm spin but I think I was slightly more consistent with the cobras and man oh man do the cobra cb irons feel sweet! 

 

I would try an iron design that doesn't have a thin "fast" face, which tends to lower spin (all else equal).

 

Further, something with a lower Actual Vertical COG would promote more spin as well, because irons/wedges do not have gear effect.

[Joesti]

1 hour ago, Cwebb said:

 

I would try an iron design that doesn't have a thin "fast" face, which tends to lower spin (all else equal).

 

Further, something with a lower Actual Vertical COG would promote more spin as well, because irons/wedges do not have gear effect.

Does the cobra cb have a thin face? I just ordered them and went 1 degree weak to promote more descent and spin. The order won’t go in til Monday so I can always cancel and go try something else if need be. I also want little to no offset as I draw the ball some and tend to overdraw something with offset. Irons I hit were blueprint s, blueprint t, cobra cb, cobra mb, p7mc, jpx 923 tour, t100, and callaway apex pro (these were draw machines). The cobra cb and blueprint s were the best followed slightly by jpx 923 tour.

[mgoblue83]

Those 7i numbers should have no problem holding a green. What are you 4i numbers?

 

Guessing you are de-lofting your long irons too much and at the end of the day you just don't have the speed to generate enough height and spin with the given dynamic loft.

[jah7838]

18 hours ago, Joesti said:

Does the cobra cb have a thin face? I just ordered them and went 1 degree weak to promote more descent and spin. The order won’t go in til Monday so I can always cancel and go try something else if need be. I also want little to no offset as I draw the ball some and tend to overdraw something with offset. Irons I hit were blueprint s, blueprint t, cobra cb, cobra mb, p7mc, jpx 923 tour, t100, and callaway apex pro (these were draw machines). The cobra cb and blueprint s were the best followed slightly by jpx 923 tour.

You’ll be fine with the CB irons. Those are some good irons. They’re smaller than the ZX7 irons I currently play. As long as they gave you the numbers you’re looking for compared to what you’re currently playing, I wouldn’t over think the decision. 

[Joesti]

20 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

Those 7i numbers should have no problem holding a green. What are you 4i numbers?

 

Guessing you are de-lofting your long irons too much and at the end of the day you just don't have the speed to generate enough height and spin with the given dynamic loft.

I believe you’re 100% correct. Also I played today and didn’t have many problems holding greens as I have the last few weeks. Maybe I had just been playing firmer greens. Still I think the cobra cb will be better for me. My 4 irons around 80-85 peak, 40ish descent, and like 3800 ish spin and carrying about 210.  

Edited May 12 by Joesti

[Joesti]

4 hours ago, jah7838 said:

You’ll be fine with the CB irons. Those are some good irons. They’re smaller than the ZX7 irons I currently play. As long as they gave you the numbers you’re looking for compared to what you’re currently playing, I wouldn’t over think the decision. 

They got my spin up like 600 rpm’s and also got my descent around 47 area so I’m very happy!