Golf is Still an Elitist Sport

[Sean2]

Don't kid yourself, sure we average Joe's can play golf, but if we want to play a "famous" course we will pay a premium price.

 

Courses that are famous should be available to the general golfer. I read recently that Pebble Beach charges $94.00 for a dozen ProV's and $22.95 a sleeve, not to mention the prohibitive and outrageous green fees.

 

For many of us greens fees over $80 are cost prohibitive. I play muni courses because the fancy ones are beyond my reach (as a counselor to severely emotionally and behaviorally disturbed teens in the inner city I'm not exactly rolling in dough).

 

I'd love to play a TPC Sawgrass, etc., but...

 

Anyway, it's a shame that these types of courses aren't "available" to the general public.

 

Just my opinion.

[Geo]

I kind of have to disagree because, as you post, us average Joes can play. By your rational, baseball would also be an elitist sport because I wouldn't be able to go to a Yankees vs. Redsox game and sit right behind the dugout. Meanwhile, I'd be able to play a round of golf at a very nice public course around these parts for less than the cost of a mediocrely bad seat at a Jazz game. All a matter of perspective. :rolleyes:

[mat562]

Unfortunately, whilst ever famous courses are able to charge high visitors' rates and still see people flocking to play, that's what they'll continue to do.

 

What's more annoying to me is the number of wonderful courses that take privacy to the extreme and severely limit play by anyone who isn't a member or a guest of a member. At the end of the day it's their course and they can run it the way they see fit, but it rankles with me that you have to move heaven and earth to play some places. Being asked to fork out a wad of cash is just about acceptable in the case of a course I really want to play - but being arbitrarily banned from the fairways because I'm not an old boy really gets my goat.

 

As an aside, how Pebble Beach ever sell any golf balls is beyond me at those prices. Who in their right mind would pay double the going rate for a ball?

 

Then again, anyone who turns up to play there without any balls in their bag deserves to be taught that sort of an expensive lesson in common sense, really. Or else it's the sort of people who count as 'the other half' I suppose - who have more money than sense.

[mont86]

There is alot of high end entertainment out there, so its hard to pin it on golf.

 

How about the price of new cars and tickets to sporting events and the price of gas compared to min. wage.....You are so off base I don't know where to begin.

 

The price of golf is the least of the problems.

[Sean2]

I kind of have to disagree because, as you post, us average Joes can play. By your rational, baseball would also be an elitist sport because I wouldn't be able to go to a Yankees vs. Redsox game and sit right behind the dugout. Meanwhile, I'd be able to play a round of golf at a very nice public course around these parts for less than the cost of a mediocrely bad seat at a Jazz game. All a matter of perspective. :rolleyes:

That's why I no longer go to Red Sox games...$400 later. :-)

[ToddGsell]

I kind of have to disagree because, as you post, us average Joes can play. By your rational, baseball would also be an elitist sport because I wouldn't be able to go to a Yankees vs. Redsox game and sit right behind the dugout. Meanwhile, I'd be able to play a round of golf at a very nice public course around these parts for less than the cost of a mediocrely bad seat at a Jazz game. All a matter of perspective. :rolleyes:

 

I don't know if comparing the cost of attending a sporting event to the cost of actually participating in the sport is fair to the original poster's point.

 

It can be very expensive to attend a high-profile professional baseball game (just as attending one of golf's majors can also be very expensive). However, "Avergage Joe's" don't have to pay much to join a local softball league, whereas green fees (no matter what price) will always prevent people from being able to afford playing golf. Compared to golf, the equipment costs in a lot of other sports are a one-time investment of pretty much next to nothing.

 

Also, not to take away from the argument that may soon flare up in this thread, but I want to take this opportunity to say that Utah has some of the best deals on public golf. I can't believe how fantastic the courses are, and what great rates they offer.

 

Also, I really do like seeing the words "mediocrely bad" and "Jazz" in the same sentence. :beee:

[hack]

In defense of the high prices, they do allow the higher end courses to keep the courses in great shape year round and offer more luxuries than the local munie.

 

The high costs also adds to the exclusivity and allure of these elite courses.

[tbowles411]

I agree that it can be seen as an elitist sport, but overall you can tell the difference between courses. When I play on my local course, it's good, but it's $40. It's OK. If I'm playing on a course I'm paying $125 for 18 holes, it's just different. The grass is cushier, there isn't a weed anywhere, insects are controlled and usually there's something to look at. I expect better for my mediocre game, but if I'm playing for the privilege, I get it.

[Sideways]

I just don't concern myself with expensive courses. I play the heck out of my home course, which is a nice muni. I have an annual pass and I play 4-6 times a week about 8 months a year and 2-3 times a week in the dark months. When it's light out late, I play after work every day that I don't have band rehearsal or a gig. Screw the elite courses (and there are plenty in my area). I'm damn sure not going to beg for an invitation. My income is sufficient to be a member, but I'm just not interested in spending that much on golf.

 

Furthermore, I prefer to walk and that's out of the question at most upscale courses.

 

I usually play about 20 rounds a year away from my home course, including a few invitations to the private clubs here and there. I'm not into collecting famous courses as a status symbol. I'll play a nice course when I have a chance to play at a reasonable price - otherwise I don't even give it a second thought.

 

I'd rather obsess on how well I'm playing than where I play.

[golfsll]

Don't kid yourself, sure we average Joe's can play golf, but if we want to play a "famous" course we will pay a premium price.

 

Courses that are famous should be available to the general golfer. I read recently that Pebble Beach charges $94.00 for a dozen ProV's and $22.95 a sleeve, not to mention the prohibitive and outrageous green fees.

 

For many of us greens fees over $80 are cost prohibitive. I play muni courses because the fancy ones are beyond my reach (as a counselor to severely emotionally and behaviorally disturbed teens in the inner city I'm not exactly rolling in dough).

 

I'd love to play a TPC Sawgrass, etc., but...

 

Anyway, it's a shame that these types of courses aren't "available" to the general public.

 

Just my opinion.

 

sounds like class envy to me. i play twice a month because thats what i can afford. i think if you use the same logic maybe the fancy houses that are beyond your reach should be yours also. Its a shame they aren't AVAILABLE to the general public. oh yea by the way i make 45,000 a year, have my forth child on the way, have been paying 4.00 plus for diesel until recently, house payment, car payment plus plus plus.

ive played several course that you might call fancy TPC @sawgrass, Eastlake, and a couple of others that made the tour circiut in years past. Guess how i managed to make my way on the courses and didnt pay a dime. I volunteered with INNER CITY kids with the booker t washington center and the boys and girls clubs of macon. ended up with a pair of TW golf shoes to boot.

so the moral of this story is VOLUNTEER, help others and you too can be rewarded.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

I can feel Avatars frustration on this considering outside Monterey I live and play in probably one of the most overpriced golf towns in the country.

 

However what I have discovered is afordable golf is availible at good non elitist courses, I may have to travel off the beaten path and play on the outskirts of Phoenix but good inexpensive golf is out there. Between Golfnow and a discount card I bought that gets me 50% off at 5 local courses which I play throughout the winter. I wont see the higher side of 50$, Granted I wont be playing We Ko Pa or Troon etc but that gives me something to look forward to in the summer when I go play all the high end courses.

 

Here is a good example I am going to Monterey and Sf in October and playing Poppy Hills, Pacific Grove, and Harding Park for a grand total of 265$ not bad compared to one round at Spyglass is 330$ I still feel as I will be playing 3 pretty good tracks and getting a great bang for the buck, Could I go play Pebble, Spyglass and Spanish Bay for over $1000 sure, would I have anymore fun probably would I have any less fun maybe.

 

The main point is its all realative to the individual and no different than the argument is driving a Porsche really nesscessary when you can drive a honda, probably not but if you can afford to and thats how you choose to spend your money why not. Its not like I would be playing every weekend at Pebble, Sawgrass, insert any other high end course here.

 

IMO These "elitist" courses are best left to special occasions, vacations etc since IMO it just makes playing these courses and the experience plus the memories all that much more special.

Its been 9 years since I played Spyglass and I can still remember almost every single shot I hit that day.

 

To be honest I would expect to pay a premium for a "famous course" no different than I would expect to pay a premium to stay at a Ritz Carlton vs Motel 8, Between the level of expenditure by the course for the higher end guest services as well as more spending on course maintinence, nicer amenities etc. In most cases that premium is justified Granted I do think 450$ is a stretch but I dont think anything is worse than the 500$ Wynn charges for his course in Vegas. The one thing I would love to see these destination resorts get away from is the mandatory resort hotel bookings to book a tee time in advance.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Let me also add one last point then Ill shut up.

 

What other sport do you the average joe have the opportunity to go and play on the same hollowed ground that many of the games greats have walked and played on? That in its self is worth some extra $$$$

 

I would love to have had the chance to play a hockey game at Boston Garden or Joe Louis arena but since I was not a pro I will never get that chance yet we all have the opportunity to go play courses that have hosted majors. To me that is not elitist the pricing maybe but the opportunity definatley not.

[stage1350]

I'm just curious what you think an appropriate green fee would be to play Augusta?

 

Every commodity has a low end and a high end product, from liquor to toilet paper. The consumer decides what they are willing to pay for.

[Sean2]

I'm just curious what you think an appropriate green fee would be to play Augusta?

 

Every commodity has a low end and a high end product, from liquor to toilet paper. The consumer decides what they are willing to pay for.

You are absolutely correct. It's the consumer that drives the price of a product. That said, I don't think the consumer should be taken advantage of either.

 

What I originally posted was my OPINION, no need for some folks to get their knickers in a twist. Sure, it costs more to keep some of these courses in pristine condition, but not that much more. Go to a ball game and pay $5 for a bottle of water? Please.

 

I don't mind paying a bit more, but IMHO when is paying more paying too much?

 

As to Augusta I think an appropriate green fee would be $60 walking.

 

AGAIN, this is just my opinion. It doesn't mean I am right. It doesn't mean I am wrong. It is just an opinion.

 

I would hope we could engage in rational discourse without...well, you know.

[Cape Town]

Sounds like envy and sour grapes to me.......

 

But... that's just my opinion (seems to be the standard quote to cover oneself after making a %^&* statement)

 

And $60 to walk Augusta...................... :rolleyes:

[Cape Town]

By the way just to put it all in perspective; Fancourt Links here in South Africa, site / course of the Presidents Cup charges the equivalent (at today's exchange rate) of US$150 for a round of 18 holes if you are a members guest.

 

If you want to play it, that's the cost, period!

 

US$60 is the AVERAGE cost of a round of golf here in South Africa.

[HackerD]

There are some areas of the country with great deals on awesome muni courses. I played in Utah last year and agree it was spectacular and affordable. The Northeast is not so great -- fewer affordable and nice courses. But there are still some gems. Sometimes you have to be a bargain-hunter, look for internet discounts, etc.

[smithjohnjr]

UM, I can see where you are coming from but I disagree with it being a cost problem. Not because of my income but like someone else stated, every product has a low and high end version. I decide which one is right for me. And yes, it does cost that much more to keep a club in pristine condition as opposed to "playable".

 

Here is where I agree ( and its because golf is my passion, so dont compare my rationale to anything but golf, please ). I wish every golfer could play each golf course one time, if they choose. Of course there is no way to do this but it would be nice to be able to play Augusta, Pine Valley, Medinah and some of the others without having to call in serious favors.

 

I wish that we could all experience our passion on the same grounds that the pros compete on, whether it be the Gardens, Augusta, or 3Com.

 

Something else to add - sometimes the price has more to do with keeping you away and not the actual cost. Pebble is what is and because of where it is charges that much. Some clubs charge HIGH prices so that it keeps the masses away from playing it

[imsocrabby]

my home course is member only and our guest fee Tues-Thurs isn't even $60....

 

 

$60 can't get you a round at a mid- to high-end public course in most places...

 

 

i respect your opinion....and agree that the price of golf is outrageous....but that's the way it goes...and we chose it. elitist?...not anymore. today...anyone who wants to play golf can. everywhere...no. but anyone who wants to bowl...or play softball......or run track....or swim.....or any other sport or game can. there is somewhere for everyone. Augusta National isn't for everyone. If everywhere was for everyone....meh. I've gone far enough.

 

 

Besides.....do you have any idea how much money it takes to build and maintain a golf course....any golf course....let alone a world class, top dollar track? The budget for grass alone at say Valhalla compared to any local muni is ridiculously different.

 

 

I'd like to have a game of catch at Wrigley Field with my daughter...somehow I don't think I can show up and pay $60.

[soundofatrain]

Golf is not an elitist sport it is an "expensive game." There is no shortage of public courses in the US and pretty much any hacker can play them. However, just like in anything if you want access to something exclusive you have to pay for it, there is a higher perceived value to playing Pebble or a premium course and the forces of free market dictate that you pay a higher price.

[arkstorm]

Don't kid yourself, sure we average Joe's can play golf, but if we want to play a "famous" course we will pay a premium price.

 

Courses that are famous should be available to the general golfer. I read recently that Pebble Beach charges $94.00 for a dozen ProV's and $22.95 a sleeve, not to mention the prohibitive and outrageous green fees.

 

For many of us greens fees over $80 are cost prohibitive. I play muni courses because the fancy ones are beyond my reach (as a counselor to severely emotionally and behaviorally disturbed teens in the inner city I'm not exactly rolling in dough).

 

I'd love to play a TPC Sawgrass, etc., but...

 

Anyway, it's a shame that these types of courses aren't "available" to the general public.

 

Just my opinion.

 

You are confusing elitism with luxury. Golf is a luxury and a privilege, not a right. I hate to be the one to break this bad news to you but in our society we earn money to pay for necessities and use what's left over for luxuries of our choosing. The more you earn, the more luxury you can afford. Alternatively, the fewer luxuries we indulge in, the grander the luxuries we can afford. So if you're bent out of shape about the cost of playing an ultra-premium course, save up. Skip a few $40 rounds at your local muni and play one round at a famous and expensive course if that's your prerogative. Or work harder, get a second job, make more money. But this wining about golf being elitist because you can't afford to play every course smacks of entitlement.

 

I would agree that golf is elitist if every public course considered your net worth in whether or not they'll give you a tee time. And I hate to break another piece of bad news to you, private courses can and do charge and discriminate in whatever way they want, because its a free country and the key word there is private. So don't expect $60 rounds at Augusta anytime soon.

 

But only an overdeveloped sense of entitlement would lead one to surmise that golf is elitist because they can't afford a certain caliber of course. What ever happened to the idea that if you desire a premium luxury you'll work hard to get it? No, today its all about what everybody is entitled to as an average Joe. Well, if you're an average Joe, play an average course. If you want to go premium, work hard so you can afford it because if premium commodities didn't carry a premium price they would soon become average as well.

 

I'm not saying you're not entitled to your opinion as the caveat at the end of your post implies. But my opinion is that your opinion is misguided. However, on the other hand you're not alone. I hear the socialist movement is gaining momentum.

[Cape Town]

You are confusing elitism with luxury.

Golf is a luxury and a privilege, not a right.

ISkip a few $40 rounds at your local muni and play one round at a famous and expensive course if that's your prerogative.

wining about golf being elitist because you can't afford to play every course smacks of entitlement.

only an overdeveloped sense of entitlement would lead one to surmise that golf is elitist because they can't afford a certain caliber of course.

 

:rolleyes: :beee:

[krustyburger]

Don't kid yourself, sure we average Joe's can play golf, but if we want to play a "famous" course we will pay a premium price.

 

Courses that are famous should be available to the general golfer. I read recently that Pebble Beach charges $94.00 for a dozen ProV's and $22.95 a sleeve, not to mention the prohibitive and outrageous green fees.

 

So they charge $94.00 for a dozen Prov's, but you can buy 4 sleeves for $91.80? Not only is your original topic off base, but your math is wrong too.

[Sean2]

Perhaps elitist was the wrong term and I stand corrected. :-) Luxury is a much better term. Thank you.

 

Not sour grapes either, I'd just like to see the average person get a chance to play those courses. I'd also like to see a family of four be able to afford to go to a professional baseball game. I'd also like to see those people that run AIG, Lehman, etc., go to prison so we tax payers wouldn't have to keep footing the bill. I'd also like to see the 5 million children in the US who go to bed hungry each night get some food. That's not sour grapes. It's wishing everyone well.

 

Then again, it seems like these days one can't say anything without some people getting defensive.

[KMeloney]

So, "elite" means "expensive" (or just what you consider expensive)? Wow. I don't even know where to start.

 

Don't kid yourself, sure we average Joe's can play golf, but if we want to play a "famous" course we will pay a premium price.

 

Did you read what you wrote before you posted it? What is an Average Joe? Do all of the other Average Joes out there have the same value system and priorities as you? And what does "but if we want to play a "famous" course we will pay a premium price" mean? Are you saying that the average Joe gets charged MORE for wanting to play a famous course?? Or, could it be that the Average Joe has to pay WHAT IT COSTS if he wants to play ANYWHERE?

 

Courses that are famous should be available to the general golfer. I read recently that Pebble Beach charges $94.00 for a dozen ProV's and $22.95 a sleeve, not to mention the prohibitive and outrageous green fees.

 

Wait -- when something becomes famous, it should be MORE available? Seriously? Have you considered how supply and demand works? Anyway, Pebble IS available to the general public, just like Ferraris are. It's just that some of us can "justify" these things, and some of us can't.

 

For many of us greens fees over $80 are cost prohibitive. I play muni courses because the fancy ones are beyond my reach (as a counselor to severely emotionally and behaviorally disturbed teens in the inner city I'm not exactly rolling in dough).

 

Who are you speaking for when you say "For many of us..."? (And there you go equating "fancy" with "expensive.") Your career pursuits are extremely noble (I don't think I have what it takes to do what you must do). That said, if that career comes with what you consider to be low pay (and I bet there are many people out there who think your job is high pay, by the way), and you decide to pursue something that's tends to be viewed as an "expensive hobby," then whose problem is that? There's a housing crisis going on now because some people got into houses that they ultimately couldn't afford. Does that mean that the costs of the houses should be lowered -- or that people should be more realistic about what they can and can't afford first? Incidentally, the prices of houses will drop when they aren't selling and go up when they are in demand...

 

I'd love to play a TPC Sawgrass, etc., but...

 

Anyway, it's a shame that these types of courses aren't "available" to the general public.

 

Me too. And yes, it's a shame. But that's IT. Nothing more. By the way, how much of the allure of these courses is based on the fact that they seem out of reach to many people? That's part of it for me. If I ever get to play Pebble, it'll no doubt be a really special occasion.

 

Just my opinion.

 

I know. And of course you're entitled to it. I just don't think you've thought it through. Or, maybe you're just not being honest with yourself. Something like "Man, I wish I could afford to play some of these elusive courses" sounds very different than "Golf is still an elitist sport."

 

EDIT: Looks like I took too long to write this, and you've since added another post clarifying the term "elitist." LOL Your wishes are noble. Hope all is well.

[xan_user]

I sent the club a wire stating, Please accept my resignation. I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.

-G.Marx.

 

 

 

OP->Do you think I should be able to live in an "luxury"mansion even though I can't afford one ?

[arkstorm]

Perhaps elitist was the wrong term and I stand corrected. :-) Luxury is a much better term. Thank you.

 

Not sour grapes either, I'd just like to see the average person get a chance to play those courses. I'd also like to see a family of four be able to afford to go to a professional baseball game. I'd also like to see those people that run AIG, Lehman, etc., go to prison so we tax payers wouldn't have to keep footing the bill. I'd also like to see the 5 million children in the US who go to bed hungry each night get some food. That's not sour grapes. It's wishing everyone well.

 

Then again, it seems like these days one can't say anything without some people getting defensive.

 

Speaking for us defensive folks, its not that I'm so cynical that I stopped wishing for world peace and for every child to have food on their plate and a roof over their heads... But how does that relate to golf?

 

Why should the average person get a chance to play "those courses" unless he is able and willing to pay their price?

 

Same goes for baseball. Free market principles dictate the price. If after a while ticket sales drop because not enough people can afford to go to a game then prices will adjust accordingly.

 

As for AIG and Lehman, no one complained when these execs where making millions for their shareholders but then when things go bad everybody grabs their picks and torches and wants to storm the castle. (And let's not mention all those people who took out loans they could not afford to repay -- who's fault is that?) Business is always risky. When we begin to criminalize those who are responsible for taking bad risks we essentially foreclose business. If they did something illegal that's one thing. But its a knee-jerk reaction to advocate throwing them in jail because their company ends up with a bail out. The better idea is to not bail them out but that's another conversation for another thread.

 

Back to the issue, you have a better argument saying that children are entitled to food than saying that golfers are entitled to play at Pebble Beach at a price they can afford. That's because the former should be a right and the latter is merely a privilege. You are not entitled to affordable golf. You are not entitled to golf at all. Don't blame Fortune 500 execs for the price of privilege. Just work hard, save your bucks and decide how to spend them. As for me, I'm quitting golf and using the money I'll save to feed the children.

 

PS

 

One other thing. Why is the pro entitlement crew always the ones who would blame corporate CEO's for the housing failure over those who took out loans they couldn't afford? Were those CEO's holding a gun to the borrowers' heads? Grrrrrrr.

[Sean2]

Apparently my initial post wasn't well though out and/or I didn't articulate it very well.

[packerfan1]

Apparently my initial post wasn't well though out and/or I didn't articulate it very well.

 

Oh, maybe not articulated very well, I suspect that what you meant to say and what you typed may be two different feelings / thoughts.

 

Anyhow, courses have a right to charge what they want, and golfers can take it or leave it as far as playing, eventually market forces will take over pricing wise. Regulating golf prices would do nobody any good in the long run, we do practice capitalism after all. Not sure I have experience 'better golf' at higher priced courses, and the experience, while different, is not that much more appealing to me for the increased price. But that is me as a consumer making a choice, as it should be. I am happy and content at $10-$20 a round to walk at most muni's around here. You have to play within your means, and learn to enjoy what you can afford (and this coming from someonewho can only afford cheap golf most times).

 

The question we need to ask ourselves as golfers is whether we have the need to play pristine courses that attempt to look like Augusta National year round. Is it worth the extra price for the greenery and the lush look of the course, or could we stand a lower price green fee in exchange for some or a lot of brown but playable fairways? Golf is cheap most places in England, Scotland and the like, mostly because golfers over there in general place a lesser stress on green and lush color. As long as the fairways are playable and the greens in good shape, I'll bet that most golfers would be happy with that here in the US, too. But we see Augusta every April and ask, "why can't my course look like that"? We dump an awful lot of labor, water and chemicals into our courses to keep them green, when they would be cheaper to maintain and just as playable if allowed to go dormant or brown in the summer.

 

As long as capitalism is practiced, there will be different economic brackets, and there will be elitist clubs and courses beyond the reach of most golfers, at least playing them regularly. Can I afford Pebble Beach? No. But I am not worse off for it, and great for those who play.

 

Plus many of us could go back to playing bump and run golf...

[InTheHole]

Excellent post packer...

 

There was a long, very well researched group of articles in Golf Digest not too long ago (within the year) about exactly that subject. It costs a tremendous amount of money to keep everything green year round. Any many courses feel that if they don't, they'll go out of business. There needs to be an education of the golfing public on what is acceptable to play on, and what is necessary to play on.

 

Amazing how people will join a softball league and play on a crummy field, yet their golf course has to be pristine (not everyone feels that way... if that's not you, then please don't get mad).

 

Supply and demand drives a lot of the pricing. I was at TPC Sawgrass last January- I had just taken up the game and had not even played on a course yet so I wasn't ready to play there (we were at a business meeting). But the fees were not that rediculous for a one-time round of golf while on vacation. Just stay at the Marriot and you get to play! So what if it's $200 - you're on vacation! But the point is, you can play it if you want to. (I forget the actual price.) If you stay at a nice place, you'll probably have dinners in that range anyway- skip a dinner and hit the local diner one time- then go play a great round of golf. (Next year, I'm playing Sawgrass if at all possible.)

 

As far as the price of golf balls at Pebble Beach, well, remember the old days of buying film for your camera? Remember how expensive film was to buy in the gift shop of wherever you were? I look at it the same way... If you get to Pebble Beach and don't have golf balls, you kind of deserve to pay that kind of price. I do realize that some people try not to travel with balls in the bags because they are heavy... but at least buy them at a local golf shop or K-Mart when you get there if that is the case.