Gripe...All member events are handicapped...arghh

[SadTrombone]

Welcome to "club golf". At the club I left, our club championship was handicapped. Yeah...a 'capped club championship. Maybe it's because the owner is something like a mid-teen capper that shoots in the 70s? Things that make ya go, "Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm".

 

-mini

[highergr0und]

The problem is that clubs have resorted to using handicaps to figure out who wins tourneIsn't the handicap system set up so that you don't (or shouldn't) beat your handicap XX percentage of the time? If that's the case, there should be a fairly substantial penalty for shooting, say, more than 2-

[noddy]

Holy crap fellas,

 

I don't know if any of you have read my post "USGA Handicap coming soon to Australia" but you are scaring me, this sounds like it will ruin the integrity of club competitions. I'm starting to feel a little militant about taking on this sytem.

 

highegr0und - not really fair have you ever heard of a breakthrough round from sheer hard work, practice, determination to improve & instruction?

 

I had a legit nett 63 (81 gross off a 18hcp) 2 weeks ago in monthly medal - you think I should be penalised? In some folks eyes I have been I'm now down to a 15 - but that makes me :D

[mark m]

I understand where you're coming from - been a low hdcper for 16+ years . It's a NET WORLD. What to do to get low hdcpers to play in NET events:

 

1. Ask the Club to have an optional ($10 or $20 per player) gross skin game for every event where you are playing your own ball. Many of the better players will get in and it gives you something to play for. Cash pay-out BTW.

2. Ask for par 3 proximities prizes on those holes to be included in the event payout. Better players like those.

3. Ask that 'T' scores are posted for Tournaments. This will help to punish the baggers.

4. Ask that the events use USGA recommended Handicap allowances where applicable. This will give better players a chance.

5. Ask that more events be flighted by handicap. This works good especially in a 2-man best ball format (Four-ball).

6. Pay individual low gross and low net - even in team events. That way you are rewarded even if your teammates play poorly.

 

Most of these things won't happen unless you have a few low hdcpers on your Board and/or a good Pro.

 

Good Luck

[RichB]

Holy crap fellas,

 

I don't know if any of you have read my post "USGA Handicap coming soon to Australia" but you are scaring me, this sounds like it will ruin the integrity of club competitions. I'm starting to feel a little militant about taking on this sytem.

 

highegr0und - not really fair have you ever heard of a breakthrough round from sheer hard work, practice, determination to improve & instruction?

 

I had a legit nett 63 (81 gross off a 18hcp) 2 weeks ago in monthly medal - you think I should be penalised? In some folks eyes I have been I'm now down to a 15 - but that makes me :D

 

 

Noddy...ONE round is not a problem, and will not be penalized (unless your handicap committee

is totally out of control - not a USGA handicap system issue). If your tournament scores

trend *substantially* lower than your non-tournament (social) scores...you will

be penalized.

 

Do not fear a career round.

 

The system does understand improvement, as well

as a player on a *hot* streak. This is actually an advantage to the USGA type system...

if you are playing exceptionally well, you will have low social scores during the streak,

as well. (Personal experience...I've gone through the streak myself...in and out of

tournaments. The non-tournament low scores showed I was merely on a hot streak,

not sandbagging tournaments...no penalty.)

[Bobalu]

Day in and day out, it seems like the 12-14 handicappers always seem to win most casual rounds. They also win 'net' tournaments usually with their 'best' round in months, that seem to appear out of nowhere. The system is flawed, because there is no verification of scores posted, and there is a pervasive mentality among more and more golfers- to keep their handicap up to try and stay competitive with all the other sandbaggers! Sad. I suggest the answer is a club taking on a little work, and insisting that members turn in signed scorecards for the assistant pros to enter into the computer system, with lowered handicap penalties for not turning in a score card at the end of a round. Scores for tournaments vs. official handicaps should be posted prominently for every club member, for all to see, on a monthly basis, with the person at the top of the list being the guy that has the widest disparity between his posted handicap and his tournament scores. The list could also indicate prize money won, flight classification, and number of wins. Over time the 'list' would therefore easily reflect in descending order, the biggest sandbagger in the club on down the list to the guy with the lowest 'vanity' handicap with the worst tournament scores. It would make for interesting conversation and a bit of peer pressure on baggers as well as vanity cappers. Extreme low-lifes could be interviewed by a tournament committee, and given the chance to explain themselves.

[TrufflePig]

I agree that handicaps really ruin any tournament because everyone keeps their handicaps differently. Some put all scores all the time - and try to score their best every round. Others practice on the course. Others only put in tournament scores. Some people only play one course ever and know every break of every green while others play a different course every week. It's an imperfect system.

 

There's also a lot of misconception about how low someone should shoot based on their handicap. The comment earlier about being within 1-2 shots of your handicap 75% of the time is really not accurate. My handicap right now is 5.8 and the average of my last 20 rounds is 80.2. I shot +8 or better only 8 times out the last 20. I shot +6 ("my handicap) only 6 out of those 20.

 

The best solution is just to not play anything you feel competitive about that uses handicaps.

[roll - gybe]

I feel the pain here.

 

My last three rounds were played against:

A 16 handicap who shot 80, and didn't miss a put inside 20 feet

A 30 handicap who went out with 4 pars and a birdie, closed me out, then tripled the next 3 holes

A 36 handicap who beat me 4 & 3 with the "round of his life"

 

Maybe there is something wrong with me. My scores do not deviate by much, so I don't go out and shoot 73 one day and 96 the next. I shoot within about a 5 stroke range 3/4 of my rounds, and if I do something miraculous on one hole, I tend to go back to normal play. I don't drain seven 18-footers in a row, and claim I have never made a put before in my life!

 

It blows my mind though when a high handicapper consistently pulls off difficult shots. Especially when their short game is totally money. I thought Pelz did a study on how close a 15 handicap should be able to chip it on average. The number was not 3 feet!

 

I mean, isn't 90% of being a low handicapper having a good short game and 90% of being a high handicapper is having a bad short game?

 

What are the odds of the last three guys I played against having their best-ever?

[larrybud]

Simple. Play in NET tournaments for fun, play in gross tournies to win.

 

I'm in that mid low range (4-5 index) where I get beat up no matter where I play!

[frozen_rope]

I suspect your club does have some scratch events or at least "scratch divisions" within an event.

 

 

 

I joined a club this year and all but the club championships are handicapped. I started the year as a 1.9 but don't really have a chance to complete because they do a handicapped best ball 2-3 man teams. The winning scores are 12 under or so. Being that I get 1 a side I have no chance whatsoever. I hate this..it would be better to flight it then no handicap. So to combat this I have decided to not play as good and post higher scores on my off days. Even the couples club championship is handicapped...WTF. I feel like I need to get my handicap up to a 6 to be fair in these....

[ezra76]

Handicaps are the worst thing that happens to a golf club, most players have no incentive to improve. BUT, to me you don't want to go down the road of manipulating your handicap. Don't fall to the level of those who pad their handicap to win 10 bucks a week.

 

That's what the guys do at my club. I joined my boss for an 11 man $25 a pop stableford/nassua deal. This jackass shot a 76 off 12.

 

Besides the flat out cheaters I also don't think it's set up very well anyway. They'll only enter a score if another member signs your card. So far I have only one score posted in a month and have played over 20 rounds. Just never played a full 18 with someone to sign it, so the club won't accept it. Looks like I'll have to play them for $$ again. The computer says my cap is an 18 and haven't shot over 85 in the last 15-16 rounds.

 

I stand corrected. I just looked up my name on the USGA site and they have it correctly at a 9.

[frozen_rope]

What I notice often is "scratch" or "plus" handicaps who by the 6th tee box declare 4 out of 5 rounds a "practice round".

If this type player actually putted every ball out, and posted every single round he played, then his handicap would be a true 6 to 8 index. But that doesn't sound as good as "+1" or "0" or "1.4", so the player only posts his lowest scoring rounds and calls the other days "practice rounds". I see this type of bragging handicap more frequently than I see a sandbagging betting handicap.

 

I joined a club this year and all but the club championships are handicapped. I started the year as a 1.9 but don't really have a chance to complete because they do a handicapped best ball 2-3 man teams. The winning scores are 12 under or so. Being that I get 1 a side I have no chance whatsoever. I hate this..it would be better to flight it then no handicap. So to combat this I have decided to not play as good and post higher scores on my off days. Even the couples club championship is handicapped...WTF. I feel like I need to get my handicap up to a 6 to be fair in these....

 

 

First off every round you play by the rules of golf should be entered for handicap!!!

If you are going out with the mindset of practicing shots and not trying to score and you enter that score yes you are sandbagging. nothing makes me more upset then members coming in complaining about how their handicap is to low but they only hand in there lowest scores. and then club championship time comes and they shoot in the 80's. not saying you are one of these just you got on a topic that annoys me alot.

rant over.

 

now as for your problem. as a 2 handicap in a better ball situation you should be an A player and be paired with a higher handicap player as well. in a well run better ball tournament you should never be giving up more then 2 or 3 shots to any other A player.

 

also side note handicaps are a not an average score it is attested to your ability to score which people often think that it is what they "average"

[jjj912]

From the USGA Handicap manual:

Two basic premises underlie the USGA Handicap System, namely that each player will try to make the best score at every hole in every round, regardless of where the round is played, and that the player will post every acceptable round for peer review. The player and the player's Handicap Committee have joint responsibility for adhering to these premises.

(Emphasis added is mine)

 

Here's the definition of peer review in the Handicap manual:

Peer Review

 

"Peer review" is the ability of golfers to gain an understanding of a player's potential ability and to form a reasonable basis for supporting or disputing a score that has been posted.

 

There are two essential elements of peer review:

 

1. Members of a golf club must have a reasonable and regular opportunity to play together (see Decision 2/8).

 

2. Access must be provided to scoring records, as well as to a Handicap Index list, for inspection by others, including, but not limited to, fellow club members. There are two forms of scoring record display:

...

(Emphasis added is mine)

 

So the idea behind the USGA handicap system is that you play to shoot your best scores, always, post all acceptable scores, and you play with other golfers who will verify that you are posting your scores and that the scores are correct.

 

It's a noble idea, aside from the fact that it is a bit contradictory (an acceptable score does not include the concept of playing to shoot the best score )

 

As I understand it, in the UK you can only get an official handicap by playing in certain tournaments. While this probably enhances the accuracy of the handicaps it also makes it much harder to acquire a handicap. At some point it is a tradeoff - more accurate handicaps or more golfers with handicaps.

 

tesla (go back seven posts) has the right idea:

...

I suggest the answer is a club taking on a little work, and insisting that members turn in signed scorecards for the assistant pros to enter into the computer system, with lowered handicap penalties for not turning in a score card at the end of a round. Scores for tournaments vs. official handicaps should be posted prominently for every club member, for all to see, on a monthly basis, with the person at the top of the list being the guy that has the widest disparity between his posted handicap and his tournament scores. The list could also indicate prize money won, flight classification, and number of wins. Over time the 'list' would therefore easily reflect in descending order, the biggest sandbagger in the club on down the list to the guy with the lowest 'vanity' handicap with the worst tournament scores. It would make for interesting conversation and a bit of peer pressure on baggers as well as vanity cappers. Extreme low-lifes could be interviewed by a tournament committee, and given the chance to explain themselves.

 

While this hard to do in practice, it is probably the best way to get a club's members' handicaps accurate.

 

I think the issues with handicaps (or the equivalent thereof) are common in other sports too. For example, in the game of chess it is possible to acquire an official rating that measures how good of a player you are. The higher the rating, the better the player. Most tournaments are organized into sections based on ratings. So bad players play against bad players and good players play against good players. Each section will have its own winner. There are players who will purposely lose games so as to lower their rating so that they can play in a weaker section in the tournament and thereby increase their chances of winning prize money.

[roll - gybe]

That's what the guys do at my club. I joined my boss for an 11 man $25 a pop stableford/nassua deal. This jackass shot a 76 off 12.

 

 

How does this stuff happen? I feel like I see it all the time. That 76 has to be outside of 2 standard deviations.

My guess is that there are some sandbaggers, but then there are some guys who underrate themselves all the time in life. Add those two groups together and you get 30% - 50% of people.

 

I hate losing to guy who underrates himself, because it is all a big accident. It's like "aw shucks, I keep making pars today." No harm, but part of competing is being honest with yourself.

 

However, the sandbaggers make me really angry. Like red in the face angry. If you want to compete and get strokes, be a man and respect the hard work that went into the lower handicapper's game. I am very sheepish when I get strokes, because that guy is flat out better than I am. I used to think that old guys were the worst about sandbagging, but I see it all the time now.

 

I think I would have a hard time with a boss of mine shooting a 76 off a 12. The work stuff is touchy.

[Bobalu]

I'm a minus 8 handicap established from the regular men's tees. I played in a club member's tournament last year against a young guy who got strokes on every hole including all the par threes. He was long, hit solid shots, good short game, and I had yet to see him truly miss a shot, as high handicappers do- frequently. After 12 holes, I told him "You are an excellent player- you haven't missed a shot all day, man." He didn't say much, even acted a bit arrogant. He didn't even react like he was playing particularly well that day. By his and his partner's reactions to his shots, I could tell his shot-making was not that unusual for him.

 

By the end, he and his 4 handicap partner had easily beaten my partner and I in best ball, match play, and we played very well. This high handicap guy was at least as good a golfer as I am, and ended up missing far fewer shots than I did. He played from the regular men's tees, but his 4 handicap partner played from the tips. I knew one of the guys that he normally plays with, and I knew that his group is adamant about always playing from the back tees. About half way through the match, I told him, "Your buddies must give you hell for playing from the regular men's tees, eh? He says, "Oh, I play back from the tips with them- not that much difference- maybe two strokes- I play about the same regardless of the tee." At that point, I realized that he was not only a blatant sandbagger, but his high handicap was primarily acquired from the back tees, and he was playing the blue tees against us- in violation of the rules to gain an advantage- even while his partner played from the tips!

 

After we lost, I went and checked the club's handicap computer to see what kind of scores he had posted for handicap determination. Even though he plays regularly, he had posted only about 12 rounds over the last year and a half, all from the back tees, and over the last 20 rounds, he had posted 3 or 4 rounds ranging from an unbelievable 100 to 120! With his own ball, he broke 80 in our tournament round! All of his extra strokes in our round were accumulated when his partner had the hole well in hand, if you know what I mean.

 

Here is the making of this cheat: 1) Rarely posts his scores, 2) Grossly pads the high scores he posts, 3) Never, ever posts his low scores, 4) Likely, totally ignores equitable stroke limits on holes, 5) Plays from the wrong set of tees in tournaments, shorter than the tees used to establish his handicap, to gain an unfair advantage. 6) In best ball, purposely knocks the ball around for a few extra strokes around the greens, when his partner has the hole well in hand. 7) Has a complicit partner who wants to win at all costs.

 

To top it all off- the next week, he walks up next to me on the driving range, and he tells me that he can't wait to play us again in a rematch sometime. Then he proceeds to hit 10 perfect half sand wedge shots, and then casually hits 10 shots in a row with consistent trajectory on to a distant range green with a 6 iron. I tell him, "I'm still waiting for you to miss a shot, dude." He laughed, and then ten minutes later, he says, "Well there it was- I missed one!" Ha, ha.

 

The moral of the story- play with your friends, people you know, that you can trust, and who you enjoy spending the time with, which by the way is mostly what I do, rarely playing tournaments because of the cheating that goes on, both from club members, and out of towners. The game deserves better, and obviously I need a beer...

[jjj912]

Quite a story. I think the guy knew exactly what he was doing.

 

One comment though regarding your list of cheats:

 

...

Here is the making of this cheat: 1) Rarely posts his scores, 2) Grossly pads the high scores he posts, 3) Never, ever posts his low scores, 4) Likely, totally ignores equitable stroke limits on holes, 5) Plays from the wrong set of tees in tournaments, shorter than the tees used to establish his handicap, to gain an unfair advantage. 6) In best ball, purposely knocks the ball around for a few extra strokes around the greens, when his partner has the hole well in hand. 7) Has a complicit partner who wants to win at all costs.

...

 

#5 shouldn't concern you too much. The slope and course rating are designed to deal with the difference in difficulty between the tees. In theory, a golfer who plays exclusively from the back tees and acquires a certain handicap index would maintain that same index even if he switched and played exclusively from the middle tees. Obviously, the ratings aren't perfect and a golfer's skill set is usually more suitable for a particular set of tees. So, you do get some change in the index by changing tee boxes, but I don't think the change would be more than a couple strokes.

 

...

The moral of the story- play with your friends, people you know, that you can trust, and who you enjoy spending the time with, which by the way is mostly what I do, rarely playing tournaments because of the cheating that goes on, both from club members, and out of towners. The game deserves better, and obviously I need a beer...

 

Aesop couldn't have said it better.

[golfman1229]

i work at a country club as a caddie and the handicap tourneys are really starting to get to me and i dont even play in them! lol

 

im a junior golfer who has just under a 3 handicap and have played in a ton of tournaments. Handicaps are the worst thing that happened in golf. To me the best player should win the tournament and a 18 handicap isnt the best person in the tournament. It irks me when before they even tee off the members ask "so how many strokes we get"? i played with a adult last summer and he wanted to play against me. He asked "how many strokes you gonna give me"? i said none! if you really want to play against me and see if you can beat me im not giving you any strokes. you cant say you won some tournament when you get 18 strokes taken off your card

 

handicap tournaments are a joke. The members dont feel obligated to get better.

 

JMHO

kyle