Scotty Cameron Classic Mini

[reflog74]

Where's that "eating popcorn" emoticon when you need it? LOL!

You go, Dave!

John

[Bogie Hokie]

[quote name='DB MACHINE' post='1838480' date='Jul 23 2009, 09:14 AM'][quote name='xxio' post='1838235' date='Jul 23 2009, 02:22 AM'][quote name='DB MACHINE' post='1837839' date='Jul 23 2009, 10:25 AM'][quote name='xxio' post='1837749' date='Jul 22 2009, 08:45 PM']As to the future of putting I coursed thru the Cameron site for a good amount of time.

I think it is safe to say the "thing" that will alter the future of putting is still in the design stages. Maybe the photocopying machine is broken [/quote]


LOL!

Just wait until you see my new patent (issues in a matter of days now.....). You'll get a whole new perspective on that last comment.

-DB
[/quote]


Dave,

Maybe you shouldn't have mentioned it until the patent was issued. Some people here may no longer buy your "anser copy" they'll just wait for someone to copy the copy.

Oops did I just throw you under the bus again? Post 814 page 21 to refresh your memory. Just to ask did you ever get an apology for that remark. There was none in this thread. I mentioned that and it was ignored. I was hoping he PM'd you one.

Waiting for pics of whatever was patented.
[/quote]

xxio,

No, no apology. I wasn't holding my breath either. And, being the guy that designed the HOG putters, you have to understand that I have VERY thick skin (and I hope a good sense of humor).

The irony of your statement about not letting anyone know about the patent is that technologies are now copied so fast in this industry, and patents now usually take so long to get, that those who copy can often have several years of producing the "borrowed" ideas, and sometimes even realize the life cycle of a product before the real inventor and pioneer can successfully prosecute the patent through issuance and publication.

However, important innovations should stand the test of time, even if some copies were abandoned or were unsuccessful (often for reasons other than the value and benefits of the original invention). I believe we have such an invention, due to the benefits of the technologies represented in my IP.

We will be introducing new models that incorporate these innovations, and am eager to show everyone here, and make them available to those that may appreciate them. Prototypes were previously used by a top 10 player in the world, for top 5 finishes in multiple events. As I eluded to earlier, the story gets much more "interesting" than that. More to follow...

For those that might say that this has nothing to do with this thread, you will soon realize that it has much more relevance than you can possibly imagine. As they say, truth is often stranger than fiction. Or as foregasm says, "the truth will set you free!" And for the SC diehards, how about a few famous quotes from the movie [i]A Few Good Men[/i]:

(Nicholson) "You want answers?!"
(Tom Cruise) "I want the truth!"
(Nicholson) "You can't handle the truth!"

LOL!

-DB





[/quote]

So will we be hearing about this patent by the weekend? I am really curious as to what you have to show us.

[xxio]

Dave,

I forgot about the HOG being "ruled" non-conforming yet others get a "pass". I wonder how much of that was OEM pressure

I love work of true innovators who risk things beyond fashion statements in putter design (without having to resort to a photocopying machine).

I'm still waiting for the copy of your Aero Streak to be released in"GSS" to hit the market and the fanatics to oooh and aaah on "the innovation". Maybe that is what is going to "alter the future of putting"?


Edit for spellcheck

[randomhero1090]

[quote name='xxio' post='1838460' date='Jul 23 2009, 09:02 AM'][quote name='randomhero1090' post='1838420' date='Jul 23 2009, 08:39 PM'][quote name='xxio' post='1837743' date='Jul 22 2009, 09:42 PM'][quote name='randomhero1090' post='1836068' date='Jul 22 2009, 09:43 PM']As for the "premium for confidence," I will buy into that to an extent. I got $500 in Golfsmith gift certs as a little contest bonus at work. I knew I wanted to get a GOOD OTR putter. With all the hype around Scotty Cameron putters, it's hard not to get a little juiced up when you 1st put one in your hands. I personally think $300 for a putter is f'n crazy. I would never spend that kind of money on a putter, but this was my opportunity to do so without taxing the normal cash flow that pays the bills.

Is it anything amazing and out of this world about it? No. Have I shot my best scores of my life? Yes. Am I a better putter after getting a SC? I guess so, the scores don't lie.

There are some amazing OTR putters in that $250-500 range. Ping Redwood for example. But I do have to say that the hype/marketing machine that is Scotty Cameron got me. But I will also so I am FAR from disappointed with my purchase. It's a great putter that works for me. Results don't lie.

As for these $2k+ putters…. I guess to each their own. I can sit at a Hold'em Table in AC with $100 and get a rush when I double up. Some people need to sit down with $5k to even be interested. Really, to each their own.[/quote]


Interesting.

Can you tell us what putter you were scoring bad with before? How many putts per round average? What was your tendency- push/pull/wrong speed, etc?

What were the specs of your previous putter- length/headweight/loft/lie/etc?

What are the specs of your Scotty?

I used to be a bad putter with a bad stroke. Averaging 35-37 putts a round. I still have that "bad stroke". I just have putters that fit it better now and my misses are not that bad. I'm averaging about 30 putts a round now.

Even the putter I was putting bad with before has been bent to my specs and I now have confidence in it.

Whether the confidence is worth $300 or $40,000 I honestly don't know. I guess only Cameron is qualified to put a price on confidence.
[/quote]

I was playing a Cleveland VR-1 (not milled). I know it was 35", 3* loft, 340g weight. Don't know the lie angle. Misses were a lot of pulls. Always seem to be missing on the low side short.

I play the SC Newport 2. 35", 4* loft. Why the weight is escaping me right this second, pretty sure its a 340g (10g weights).

I am actually a very good lag putter and really don't miss anything under 4'. But I wasn't sinking those 6-15 footers that make you score well. I never kept track of putts per round.

I will say since getting my SC, no BS, I am down to a 2. I have recently shot a 66, 67 and 70. My highest round in the last 2 months is a 76. The 66 & 67 were bogey free with only 1 U&D per round. So very few putts in the last couple of months. It also doesn't hurt to be hitting a lot of fairways and greens. But I have been making a TON of putts inside 20 feet.

I made changes to my bag in the beginning of the season, but it wasn't until getting the SC that I started really scoring well. It's all putting. Don't know what else to say about that. I stand over each putt now feeling like I am going to make it, not just thinking "don't leave yourself a 4 footer."
[/quote]


Thank you for the in depth response. There are still too many variables like lie angle and since you don't count putts per round to actuall attribute it to the Scotty. Are those specs actual measurment or what the specs should be? It could be off and that "off" just happened to fit you.

I would assume the GIRs aren't counted as well because if you count one the other can easily be deducted. There are some rounds where I feel I have putted well but total around 30 putts because I hit a lot of greens and burn a lot of edges. There are days where I'll shoot 76 take 27 putts but feel I didn't putt well because a lot of those would have been tap-ins from up and downs from the fringe/easy chips.

Nice to hear the scores are really good. I hope it goes on.
[/quote]

Yes, the numbers I put down are actual. I don't know what the lie angle was for the VR1. And my new SC head is 340g.

I wasn't tracking these stats until the middle part of the season. I now track fairways, driving distance, GIR, putts, U&D conversions. I have been averaging 11 GIR and 70% U&D conversions. So, my putts per round, at 29, might sound low, but I do get up and down most of the time. When I miss a green, it's not by a mile. Same with a fairway. I am a pretty straight hitter.

Again, the stat I should track and I know has improved are those putt from 5 or 6 to 20 feet.

[bweeks]

[quote name='DB MACHINE' post='1838480' date='Jul 23 2009, 09:14 AM'][quote name='xxio' post='1838235' date='Jul 23 2009, 02:22 AM'][quote name='DB MACHINE' post='1837839' date='Jul 23 2009, 10:25 AM'][quote name='xxio' post='1837749' date='Jul 22 2009, 08:45 PM']As to the future of putting I coursed thru the Cameron site for a good amount of time.

I think it is safe to say the "thing" that will alter the future of putting is still in the design stages. Maybe the photocopying machine is broken [/quote]


LOL!

Just wait until you see my new patent (issues in a matter of days now.....). You'll get a whole new perspective on that last comment.

-DB
[/quote]


Dave,

Maybe you shouldn't have mentioned it until the patent was issued. Some people here may no longer buy your "anser copy" they'll just wait for someone to copy the copy.

Oops did I just throw you under the bus again? Post 814 page 21 to refresh your memory. Just to ask did you ever get an apology for that remark. There was none in this thread. I mentioned that and it was ignored. I was hoping he PM'd you one.

Waiting for pics of whatever was patented.
[/quote]

xxio,

No, no apology. I wasn't holding my breath either. And, being the guy that designed the HOG putters, you have to understand that I have VERY thick skin (and I hope a good sense of humor).

The irony of your statement about not letting anyone know about the patent is that technologies are now copied so fast in this industry, and patents now usually take so long to get, that those who copy can often have several years of producing the "borrowed" ideas, and sometimes even realize the life cycle of a product before the real inventor and pioneer can successfully prosecute the patent through issuance and publication.

However, important innovations should stand the test of time, even if some copies were abandoned or were unsuccessful (often for reasons other than the value and benefits of the original invention). I believe we have such an invention, due to the benefits of the technologies represented in my IP.

We will be introducing new models that incorporate these innovations, and am eager to show everyone here, and make them available to those that may appreciate them. Prototypes were previously used by a top 10 player in the world, for top 5 finishes in multiple events. As I eluded to earlier, the story gets much more "interesting" than that. More to follow...

For those that might say that this has nothing to do with this thread, you will soon realize that it has much more relevance than you can possibly imagine. As they say, truth is often stranger than fiction. Or as foregasm says, "the truth will set you free!" And for the SC diehards, how about a few famous quotes from the movie [i]A Few Good Men[/i]:

(Nicholson) "You want answers?!"
(Tom Cruise) "I want the truth!"
(Nicholson) "You can't handle the truth!"

LOL!

-DB
[/quote]I have a feeling that this thread is about to get a helluva alot more interesting when this info on the patent is made public.

[DB MACHINE]

[quote name='reflog74' post='1838507' date='Jul 23 2009, 08:36 AM']Where's that "eating popcorn" emoticon when you need it? LOL!

You go, Dave!

John[/quote]

Thanks very much John. That means a lot to me.

[quote name='Bogie Hokie' post='1838599' date='Jul 23 2009, 09:27 AM']So will we be hearing about this patent by the weekend? I am really curious as to what you have to show us.[/quote]

My new patent issues next week. I might add some more information before then, just to keep everyone in suspense.

[quote name='xxio' post='1838609' date='Jul 23 2009, 09:33 AM']Dave,

I forgot about the HOG being "ruled" non-conforming yet others get a "pass". I wonder how much of that was OEM pressure

I love work of true innovators who risk things beyond fashion statements in putter design (without having to resort to a photocopying machine).

I'm still waiting for the copy of your Aero Streak to be released in"GSS" to hit the market and the fanatics to oooh and aaah on "the innovation". Maybe that is what is going to "alter the future of putting"?


Edit for spellcheck[/quote]

xxio,

I promise, the story is much better than than just the "ruling" (or worse, depending on your perspective). Some benefited from the ruling (and had a hand in questioning our putter in the first place - even pressuring some might say), and still others benefited (or at least tried to) by our underlying putter technologies being in limbo for the year that we fought the ruling (including two appeals, one "emergency" appeal on site at the US Open, followed by a second appeal in Far Hills). But, it gets even better (or worse) than that...

Thanks for the comments on true innovations. We work very hard to make sure our expanding IP portfolio protects our best and most important innovations, as quickly as possible, and at least put others on notice while the patents are pending. Sometimes that's all you have to try to compete with the powers that be, and carve out your little niche. When the patents do issue, it does add some significant validation as our being the true innovator of that particular technology.

And I can say this, we'll keep working very hard, and one day have our little piece of history, and maybe a little moment in the sun. With support from all our great friends and great customers like you guys, I think we have a great opportunity to get there!

-DB

[reflog74]

I think this is the putter DB is referring to: HOG Superline, circa 2003. The look is familiar.

John

PS: I did not see foregasim's post above until after I uploaded my pics and posted. I am not saying the HOG design was improperly copied -- simply that there are obvious similarities between the putters.

[Pure745]

when was the detour released?

[reflog74]

Detour 2006
Newport 2 Detour 2007 ==> [url="http://www.scottycameron.com/putters/archivedetail.aspx?id=130&seasonID=3"]http://www.scottycameron.com/putters/archi...&seasonID=3[/url]

John

[tpariff]

[quote name='Pure745' post='1839018' date='Jul 23 2009, 01:40 PM']when was the detour released?[/quote]

Original Detour was 2006. Newport Detour was 2007.

[url="http://www.scottycameron.com/putters/archive.aspx?id=2"]http://www.scottycameron.com/putters/archive.aspx?id=2[/url]

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='CallawayOnly' post='1838759' date='Jul 23 2009, 09:48 AM'][quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1837705' date='Jul 22 2009, 09:26 PM']I am not sure I would call myself one of "[i]Cameron's boys[/i]" but I heard the word "[b]I[/b]" in the video clip. I have to be honest and say that. I would bet anything he said "[b]I[/b]".[/quote]


[quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1837734' date='Jul 22 2009, 09:38 PM']And my TCC ban had to do with a comment I made about that I would like to see the "[b]Inspired by TP Mills[/b]" putter. No warning, no PM, no call from Vog. Just a moderator that had no consideration of the 1500+ posts I made (almost 100% supportive of the site and product) who banned me.
That said, I made very little contributions while geogolf made a HUGE contribution and he was banned. His ban was absolutely pathetic and the Administrator and Moderators should be ashamed.
As for you Greg, I would be in support of your PT membership being reinstated but I am not privy to the details of what happened and why. Maybe an email to the Moderators at PT would help, if that is what you want.[/quote]
On all points........
[/quote]

First quote, just responding to another post.

I can agree with the second post but then again, don't read my posts. Or better yet, I could stop regurgitating them.

[xxio]

RDoctor,

Maybe you should stop saying IBTPM, I have mentioned my "inspired by" a lot of times and have never been banned. IBTB. Inspired By The Benjamins.


DB,
You know you "have made it" in the putterworld when you get copied by Cameron. Karsten Solhiem and TP Mills aren't bad to be in the same company with. Before it gets brought up..... we can all argue the detour has a curved "tongue" but you can clearly see the "inspiration" behind the Detour.

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='xxio' post='1839709' date='Jul 23 2009, 06:13 PM']RDoctor,

Maybe you should stop saying IBTPM, I have mentioned my "inspired by" a lot of times and have never been banned. IBTB. Inspired By The Benjamins.[/quote]

Yea, you might be right as I think I made my point.

My next "Inspired by" crusade will be the "IBWC"





































as in "Inspired by Who Cares" because Cameron is free to design his take on what ever is not patent protected and I really don't care. It is only fair that non-patented putters are available for any designer to put their flair in the design.

[jick]

[quote name='reflog74' post='1838959' date='Jul 24 2009, 01:13 AM']I think this is the putter DB is referring to: HOG Superline, circa 2003. The look is familiar.

John[/quote]

The HOG is an Anser type. The Detour has a raised toe so that the user will not putt with the toe up.

In the Anser department, the HOG uses a double bend shaft, the Newport Detour uses a plumber's neck hosel which is more in tune with what Anser users prefer.

The HOG has a straight line, the Detour has a curved sight line.

Again, it is unfair to blast Cameron without trying to follow his train of thought (or though process). Try to put yourself in Cameron's shoes and this is what he is thinking in his brain (based on the interview):

[u][b]"But is it wrong to take off on their original designs and try to make them better? Absolutely not."[/b][/u]

In his heart of hearts, he doesn't feel there is anything wrong with taking off original designs. And since this is a copy of the HOG, in his heart of hearts, Cameron feels his Detour is an improvement from the original.

Of course, Cameron had to price his Detour more expensive than the HOG because he is also selling "confidence." If his putter wasn't priced as high, people won't have faith - according to him also.

[jick]

Two years ago, I started a thread here called "The Fall of the Cameron Empire." I can't seem to find it as I'm not very good with the search function. Nevertheless, my conclusion at that time was:

[i]
"So a lot of things are coming together today that would bring about the fall of the Cameron Empire: (1) top players in the world no longer using his putter; (2) realization that Cameron lacks skill with his original designs; (3) overpricing of custom shop and tour merchandise to maximize profits at the expense of the loyal collector; (4) the rise of cheaper, but better or same quality, alternatives in the form of custom boutique putter makers; (5) the rise of other milled putters in the market (Odyssey Black Series, Nike Unitized, Macgregor Bobby Grace, Mizuno Bettinardi, Ping Redwood) to give buyers more alternatives; (6) the GSS debate and the current eBay Camenardi denials and other internet issues that have exposed Cameron's questionable practices and intentions, (7) the realization that Cameron's production putters cut corners and are outsourced while some of his rivals like Bettinardi refuse to compromise, and (8) the rise of technological innovation in putter designs such a roll-face technologies and high-MOI's that Cameron has not jumped into yet and will be too late when he does."[/i]

That was two years ago. Let me take my predictions back then item by item.

(1) Tiger seems to be the only holdout but even he is having his putter altered by the Mitchell Tour Van and he used a Nike backup.

(2) Two years on, Cameron hasn't released another original design since the Detour which flopped.

(3) There are so many inconsistencies and anomalies in the registry, sometimes there are even more putters of a given model there than there is of those claimed to be produced in limited runs.

(4) and (5) We indeed have much more alternatives now, even in the custom front. There is even the Puttertalk forum, dedicated to all things putters and not to mention this wonderful subsection in Golfwrx.

(6) Questionable practices continue as you can check all the complaints of people about the "random raffle" of limited edition stuff. Cameron once admitted in his museum site that both GSS and SSS were the same at 303 stainless, the only difference being GSS was made from pure steel while his SSS was from recycled forks and knives. He then deleted this when he realized this admission was not favorable to him. There was also a video in his site about how to locate the sweetspot of a putter, then when it was discovered that the Studio Select series didn't have sweetspots that matched up with the sightlines - that video was taken down as well.

(7) I may have been mistaken here. Nothing is wrong with outsourcing putter production. Even skim-milled putters are wonderful if done well. What is wrong is trying to mislead the public into thinking all his putters are made in his putter studio or having quality control issues such as sweetspots in the wrong location, 350g stamped Newport 009's that are really only 330 grams, charcoal mist finish rusting, or grips improperly aligned.

(8) Modern technology has been embraced by all. Just look at the Nike putter that has been winning the last two majors.

Now, two years after my original post, check what is happening to the Cameron market. His putters that once used to go for an arm and a leg can be bought much cheaper on eBay, many are not even getting bids. People are realizing that his limited putters are not so limited anymore, thanks to his registry (and not to mention the revisionist ways there).

There are more and more people getting banned/kicked from The Cameron Collector forum, not to mention the old-timers. Many supposed Cameron loyalists have slowly been turning against him and revealing all his anomalies in the past two years. If you look at that forum now, it is deserted. Not many new members coming to the fold, and more and more leaving or getting banned.

Many have dismissed that original thread I started and thought I was nuts. But two years on, it looks like that prediction is slowly getting fulfilled and Cameron is losing his fizz rapidly.

[Lip Out]

Jick, I am sure that John was referring to the Newport Detour in comparison to the HOG.

 

[bunana3]

[quote name='foregasim' post='1838912' date='Jul 23 2009, 11:54 AM']Why do you think ProV1's and other premium golf balls are 3 times the cost of other good golf balls? Built in future costs of litigation and settlement payments.[/quote]

This doesn't make any sense at all, you are comparing apples to oranges. If we are suppose to follow your logic here, Nike, Taylormade, Bridgestone and Callaway all have litigation costs built into them as well. Comparing the pro V costs to the cost of "good" balls is a bit of a stretch.

I have been following this thread off and on for some while now and You have been making some pretty strong accusations with very little proof and it seems that you really have a real axe to grind with Cameron like he ran over your dog or something.

To come clean, I have a few cameron putters as well as many putters from other manufacturers and i game all of it, I do not care how many mini's were actually produced nor do I care who created the first or who actually milled it. I do not collect equipment to make money off of it, nor do I have a problem with people who do.

And to be honest, I find it very funny that this thread is now 30 pages of bashing and conspiracy theories, when all the original poster wanted to do was show the size of the mini compared to a standard newport (does this picture look familiar?):

[biscuity]

[quote name='stage1350' post='1838430' date='Jul 23 2009, 05:45 AM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1837988' date='Jul 22 2009, 11:31 PM'][quote name='xxio' post='1837743' date='Jul 22 2009, 06:42 PM']I guess only Cameron is qualified to put a price on confidence.[/quote]

It's not just Cameron. There are a bunch of companies selling $300 putters that are right in line with what most Cameron putters costs.

Everyone here knows that you would get beat by Tiger in a putting contest even if he was using a $15 Walmart putter. So why would anyone pay $2,500 for a Byron Damascus? Fashion, status, [b]confidence[/b].

When the pressure is on in tournament play it gives me confidence to have a nice new pair of shoes, my favorite tour player outfit, a nice set of high-end clubs and a great putter.

Each person determines what price point makes him confident that he has the equipment to play his best. For some people that means stepping up to a $69 Cleveland putter, others it means a $300 OTR putter, and for some people it means a rare and expensive putter. The guy rocking the $69 putter is probably going to scoff at the guy using a $2500 Byron, and vice-versa. But each of them are more confident than if they were using a putter that they perceived as cheap.
[/quote]

So you understand why people would poke fun of and laugh at someone that spent $2500 on a Byron (or Mills, or Bettinardi, or Machine. Have you name dropped any other companies that I missed?)

But if someone pokes fun of or laughs at someone that spent $2500 on a Cameron, you can't understand the negativity and feel compelled to label them as haters. Insert reference to spewing something, jealousy, profit margin, etc.

[/quote]

Poking fun and laughing is one thing, but forgism's mission of hatred is completely different. I might chuckle at people who would spend $2500 for a putter made of Damascus steel. Some people would laugh at me for spending $150 on a used OTR Cameron. But I'm not going to go into Byron's thread and call people mean things for their choice. That's the difference. Forgism came in here and immediately called the OPs first post "Complete BS" and then went on to say "the true type of people that are connected to Cameron" have "no credibility". That's a lot different than me saying I'm not very interested in TP Mills putters because they remind me of the Spalding/Mills putters I first saw back in the 70's. That's my opinion and it was only presented as a response to a question about why I never posted in TP Mills threads, it was not intended as an insult.

[quote]You're right. A $15 putter will get the job done just as well in the hands of a person with good putting skills. So why is it that the Cameron people are the only ones that get their panties in a bunch about it? The Byron guys aren't going to come on here and label you a hater, but the Cameron guys would already be passing out torches.[/quote]

I've never seen anyone with forgism's level of hatred, so it's hard to say what would happen if that kind of hatred was introduced into the Byron threads.

In the end, we should be concentrating more on the performance of the putter than the behind-the-scenes transactions that bring the product to market. I'm sure that juicy facts could be brought out about any of the manufacturers, but who really cares?

[bunana3]

Jick, I am sure that John was referring to the Newport Detour in comparison to the HOG.

 

 

Jick was referring to the Newport Detour as well, he just Left out the "newport" at the top of the post.

[biscuity]

[quote name='DB MACHINE' post='1838480' date='Jul 23 2009, 06:14 AM']Some people here may no longer buy your "anser copy" they'll just wait for someone to copy the copy.

Oops did I just throw you under the bus again? Post 814 page 21 to refresh your memory. Just to ask did you ever get an apology for that remark. There was none in this thread. I mentioned that and it was ignored. I was hoping he PM'd you one.

Waiting for pics of whatever was patented.

xxio,[/quote]

[quote]No, no apology. I wasn't holding my breath either. And, being the guy that designed the HOG putters, you have to understand that I have VERY thick skin (and I hope a good sense of humor).

-DB[/quote]

Maybe you missed it Dave but I did say (in post 1819751) that I was kidding, and that I like your putters and almost pulled the trigger on one when you were having your Fathers Day sale.

I apologize for using your company as an example, but as you can see, the same people who freely call Cameron putters "Anser copies" get all freaked out when another putter/manufacturer gets similarly accused.

[biscuity]

[quote name='bunana3' post='1840133' date='Jul 23 2009, 08:47 PM'][quote name='foregasim' post='1838912' date='Jul 23 2009, 11:54 AM']Why do you think ProV1's and other premium golf balls are 3 times the cost of other good golf balls? Built in future costs of litigation and settlement payments.[/quote]

This doesn't make any sense at all, you are comparing apples to oranges. If we are suppose to follow your logic here, Nike, Taylormade, Bridgestone and Callaway all have litigation costs built into them as well. Comparing the pro V costs to the cost of "good" balls is a bit of a stretch.

I have been following this thread off and on for some while now and You have been making some pretty strong accusations with very little proof and it seems that you really have a real axe to grind with Cameron like he ran over your dog or something.

To come clean, I have a few cameron putters as well as many putters from other manufacturers and i game all of it, I do not care how many mini's were actually produced nor do I care who created the first or who actually milled it. I do not collect equipment to make money off of it, nor do I have a problem with people who do.

And to be honest, I find it very funny that this thread is now 30 pages of bashing and conspiracy theories, when all the original poster wanted to do was show the size of the mini compared to a standard newport (does this picture look familiar?):
[/quote]

+1 Good summary.

[Tim Delgado]

[quote name='bunana3' post='1840133' date='Jul 23 2009, 10:47 PM']And to be honest, I find it very funny that this thread is now 30 pages of bashing and conspiracy theories, when [b]all the original poster wanted to do was show the size of the mini compared to a standard newport[/b] (does this picture look familiar?):[/quote]



Not really. If you read the first post in this long thread, you will see that in the very first two lines of his post Nick mentioned that a $40,000 offer was rejected for this rare model, and further stated that there were 5 of these putters.

While I am not a collector or buyer of these pricey putters, it makes sense that the guys that are into this collecting craze would want accurate details on the $40,000 offer and on the actual production count and history, as both of these issues clearly affect the value.

Seems reasonable to me, especially considering that so many Cameron junkies are now ex-Cameron junkies and many have stated that the tracking, documentation and actual production counts of "limited run" items within the Cameron collecting world left something to be desired.

And on the other side of the coin, I must disagree with Jick's assessment that many of the top players in the world have left Cameron. While there are certainly more great putter options and more models being used on tour than ever, I still see PLENTY of Camerons in the hands of MANY of the top players.

And while the high-dollar collectable market may be down, most collectable markets are down in this economy, and I would venture a guess that his overall sales numbers continue to climb every year. I'm sure many of us would love to have the revenue success that Cameron is steadily producing. Not what I would consider a "fall" by any standard.

Tim

[jick]

Jick, I am sure that John was referring to the Newport Detour in comparison to the HOG.

 

 

Using Cameron's frame of thought, he "improved" on the HOG with his Newport Detour by using a curved line and plumber's neck and stainless steel. Cameron's idea is that every time he releases a putter with a "borrowed design", his version is always the "improved" version.

[Tim Delgado]

[quote name='jick' post='1840177' date='Jul 23 2009, 11:21 PM']Using Cameron's frame of thought, he "improved" on the HOG with his Newport Detour by using a curved line and plumber's neck and stainless steel. Cameron's idea is that every time he releases a putter with a "borrowed design", his version is always the "improved" version.[/quote]



While I am not particularly fond of this design, or that of the Detour I think it deserves pointing out that for many (myself included) the Cameron versions/copies are in fact better-looking than the original.

I have an old Zebra putter and it was never that appealing to me, but I do like the Red X2.

Until the recent release of the Ping Redwood series, I also think that the Cameron versions/copies of the Anser model are better.

Not that I am a big fan of any of these models, but I think that most people would agree that for the most part when Cameron makes a putter that comes from a previous design, he makes it better-looking.

Just keeping it objective.

Tim

[scottym]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1840135' date='Jul 23 2009, 08:52 PM']I've never seen anyone with forgism's level of hatred, so it's hard to say what would happen if that kind of hatred was introduced into the Byron threads.[/quote]

Unfortunately, Foregasm (JR) turns every Cameron thread into a personal vandetta that always ends in him calling those who disagree "liars".

Who cares whether there are 5, 6 or eight Minis. IT DOESN'T EFFECT THE RARITY.

And if Bob Bettinardi kept a souvenir for himself without Scotty knowing, then according to him Scotty is the liar.

= Foregasm

[Redman]

[quote name='bunana3' post='1840133' date='Jul 23 2009, 11:47 PM'][quote name='foregasim' post='1838912' date='Jul 23 2009, 11:54 AM']Why do you think ProV1's and other premium golf balls are 3 times the cost of other good golf balls? Built in future costs of litigation and settlement payments.[/quote]

This doesn't make any sense at all, you are comparing apples to oranges. If we are suppose to follow your logic here, Nike, Taylormade, Bridgestone and Callaway all have litigation costs built into them as well. Comparing the pro V costs to the cost of "good" balls is a bit of a stretch.

I have been following this thread off and on for some while now and You [b]have been making some pretty strong accusations with very little proof [/b]and it seems that you really have a real axe to grind with Cameron like he ran over your dog or something.

To come clean, I have a few cameron putters as well as many putters from other manufacturers and i game all of it, I do not care how many mini's were actually produced nor do I care who created the first or who actually milled it. I do not collect equipment to make money off of it, nor do I have a problem with people who do.

And to be honest, I find it very funny that this thread is now 30 pages of bashing and conspiracy theories, when all the original poster wanted to do was show the size of the mini compared to a standard newport (does this picture look familiar?):
[/quote]

Very little proof huh? Foregasim has done nothing but supply proof, proof, and more proof. What else do you want from him as proof.....a signed letter from Scotty saying all Foregasim's information is correct? The only ones who have not supplied realistic sufficient proof is the Cameron side of things.

[TheNatural72]

[quote name='foregasim' post='1838443' date='Jul 23 2009, 08:53 AM']One problem that a person will experience if they truly believe "the" putter is the reason they are making putts is that when they start to miss putts because they are doing something mechanically incorrect, they will lose confidence in "the" putter and not realize it was NOT the putter, it was something they were doing that needs correction. If you have quality putters from different manufactures that are set up the same, loft. lie, weight, necks, toe hang, etc. you should be able to putt the same. Then depending upon green or weather conditions or mood, you can pick what putter you want to play that day.

If you play a particular putter because you truly believe that the putter is making the putts and you only have confidence in that particular putter, you have no option but to use that putter. The quality or price of the putter does not matter, you have to play that putter because it is the only putter that will give you that confidence. That is why, in my opinion, Cameron markets his putters using the confidence tag line. It leaves his followers with no choice but to purchase and use ONLY Cameron's putters.[/quote]


[quote name='Tim Delgado' post='1840196' date='Jul 24 2009, 12:32 AM'][quote name='jick' post='1840177' date='Jul 23 2009, 11:21 PM']Using Cameron's frame of thought, he "improved" on the HOG with his Newport Detour by using a curved line and plumber's neck and stainless steel. Cameron's idea is that every time he releases a putter with a "borrowed design", his version is always the "improved" version.[/quote]



While I am not particularly fond of this design, or that of the Detour I think it deserves pointing out that for many (myself included) the Cameron versions/copies are in fact better-looking than the original.

I have an old Zebra putter and it was never that appealing to me, but I do like the Red X2.

Until the recent release of the Ping Redwood series, I also think that the Cameron versions/copies of the Anser model are better.

Not that I am a big fan of any of these models, but I think that most people would agree that for the most part when Cameron makes a putter that comes from a previous design, he makes it better-looking.

Just keeping it objective.

Tim
[/quote]


I agree that Cameron takes a putter design and really makes it into something beautiful. His putters are easily the sexiest out there. I have passed over plenty of other putters that roll the ball beautifully, just because they did not suit my fancy.

I will say that some of the D.A.S.S. models from Bettinardi I have seen lately here on WRX have been absolutely amazing. Bettinardi is finally stepping up the the level of Cameron as far as aesthetics are concerned.

40 Thousand bucks for a putter is insane. Great thread!

[xxio]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1840169' date='Jul 24 2009, 12:16 PM'][quote name='DB MACHINE' post='1838480' date='Jul 23 2009, 06:14 AM']Some people here may no longer buy your "anser copy" they'll just wait for someone to copy the copy.

Oops did I just throw you under the bus again? Post 814 page 21 to refresh your memory. Just to ask did you ever get an apology for that remark. There was none in this thread. I mentioned that and it was ignored. I was hoping he PM'd you one.

Waiting for pics of whatever was patented.

xxio,[/quote]

[quote]No, no apology. I wasn't holding my breath either. And, being the guy that designed the HOG putters, you have to understand that I have VERY thick skin (and I hope a good sense of humor).

-DB[/quote]

Maybe you missed it Dave but I did say (in post 1819751) that I was kidding, and that I like your putters and almost pulled the trigger on one when you were having your Fathers Day sale.

I apologize for using your company as an example, but as you can see, the same people who freely call Cameron putters "Anser copies" get all freaked out when another putter/manufacturer gets similarly accused.
[/quote]

Personally "I'm kidding" does not equal to an apology. [b]Apparently if you read Dave's post you quoted he didn't either[/b] (The bold part is what I added in the edit). Again see post 814 page 21 for reference. If DB is satisfied with this "apology", than good for him since he was the one thrown under the bus (out of nowhere by the way).

I for one try 100% to never refer to Cameron putters as "Anser" copies, for them to be Anser copies they would have to be cast. The Anser shape is common enough.

If you are going to quote something it would be nice if you followed the train of thought in the said post. By throwing a useless reference to a post which does not exist you do injustice to people like rrkman, cpsox, and nickpoz who also have posts in this thread and have contributed to the post count.

[xxio]

[quote name='Tim Delgado' post='1840196' date='Jul 24 2009, 12:32 PM']I have an old Zebra putter and it was never that appealing to me, but I do like the Red X2.[/quote]


The "copy" of the Zebra was the Caliente, which oddly enough is not on the Cameron site. There is reference a "RCP" or "RPC" when discussing the Caliente that was controversial if I am not mistaken.

The RedX is IMHO a Rossie II copy.

Add:
The Zebra problem was "RCP". This is hearsay but a quote from the CC site about the Zebra and Caliente...."The RCP stands for Ram Colour Problem and the colours had to be switched for production because of the similarity to the Zebra."

[xxio]

[quote name='scottym' post='1840235' date='Jul 24 2009, 01:08 PM']Who cares whether there are 5, 6 or eight Minis. IT DOESN'T EFFECT THE RARITY.[/quote]

To an extent I agree. How many 009s are there? These are not rare at all. The buyers are paying the new prices just for the stamps and not for the rarity. On the flipside.... the 009s are never mentioned to be a certain limited number like a 1/5 stamp or a "fewer than 5" reference.

I guess if it is mentioned/referenced that they are limited like it in all things (like a limited white instead of OTR blue headcovers) it increases value. Not necessarily the makers fault, but it is so.