If Poa Annua grass is so bad....

[Headgames]

Why do so many courses use it on the greens?

 

All I ever seem to hear about when the Tour plays on a course with Poa Annua greens, is how beat up, bumpy, and generally bad the grass is for providing a true roll on the green.

 

I thought the whole point of choosing a different type of grass on the reen was to allow for a BETTER roll? Not only that, but you'd think they'd choose something that held up to the traffic a bit more.

 

Any thoughts?

[Money03]

I don't know all that much about the different grasses, but I would think it might have some qualities for certain types of weather that's better than the others?

[iteachgolf]

Usually not by choice. Usually greens are a mix of it because it infested their greens. It's like a weed

[Headgames]

[quote name='iteachgolf ' post='1888373' date='Aug 14 2009, 05:43 PM']Usually not by choice. Usually greens are a mix of it because it infested their greens. It's like a weed[/quote]

So you're telling me that with all the advaced horticultural techniques that modern course superintendants have at their disposal, they can't get rid of this grass? I don't know, that sounds a bit far fetched. If they wanted it gone, it'd be gone, just like all the other weeds. Otherwise, all the courses would be using "crab grass" greens...

[finalist]

[quote name='Headgames' post='1888378' date='Aug 14 2009, 04:47 PM'][quote name='iteachgolf ' post='1888373' date='Aug 14 2009, 05:43 PM']Usually not by choice. Usually greens are a mix of it because it infested their greens. It's like a weed[/quote]

So you're telling me that with all the advaced horticultural techniques that modern course superintendants have at their disposal, they can't get rid of this grass? I don't know, that sounds a bit far fetched. If they wanted it gone, it'd be gone, just like all the other weeds. Otherwise, all the courses would be using "crab grass" greens...
[/quote]


It is like a weed and as far as I know it's not there by choice. It comes in on dirty spikes from other courses and spreads pretty fast.

The few courses I play don't want poa, but there's not much they can do. Maybe if they had bigger budgets?

Anyone play Empire in Folsom. Poa seems to have hit that course pretty hard this season. The greens used to be so nice.

[DLiver]

In the last two years, a commercial poa eradicator has become available. However killing the poa is not that simple. If your green is 50% poa, and you kill the poa, then you've got greens that are only 50% grass (and since the poa isn't evenly distributed throughout the green, you would have large dead patches on the green). Additionally, the poa eradicator can damage non-poa grasses, so when you use the poa eradicator, your greens can look very sickly for a while.

There have been efforts to breed a strain of poa that is suitable for greens. I thought they were close to bringing this to market a few years ago, but I've heard nothing about it recently.

Poa is a cool weather grass. It thrives in the spring and fall, and dies out in the hot humid weather of mid summer. The problem is that during much of the season it putts very well, but because it grows faster than bent grass (and develops seed heads), it gets bumpy in the afternoon. For many clubs, this is not a problem, but for PGA tournaments, it poses a problem

[Solutions Etcetera]

My home course works very hard to get rid of it. It crops up again almost every year... some worse than others. There is no simple solution–just a lot of work or just accept it.

[coldsoul]

Some courses are actually installing poa greens now, specific strains that are more conducive to being cut. The upside is that poa thrives in wet conditions like the northwest so all of a sudden bad winters are good for the greens. Generally poa can be a great surface if it is freshly cut (the problem is the seed heads create the bumpy surfice.) Once poa is in a surface its more or less impossible to get rid of which has been mentioned.

My opinion is based on working at premium course that decided to overseed with "premium" poa, I was never more than a higher level employee though so I am not a super expert. As for advances in horticulture its amazing how much actually goes into golf courses but you have to remember the balancing act of having the course playable versus getting it to perfect condition and not having it die right afterwards. Plus all the factors that you have no control over (I'm not just talking weather) think idiot who takes a divot out of the green, oil leaks etc.

[manicgolf]

I learned to play on poa greens in a northern climate.
I still really like putting on poa.

[Asleep]

In my opinion, poa -- is this type different from that in Cali? -- injects too much chance into the results of a tournament as important as a major championship.

You saw it over and over again on the faces of the best players in the world as they watched their putts move randomlyy off line.

[Foreleft]

In the northeast US, some of the best greens available are poa greens. For example, Oakmont.

Properly maintained, they can be some of the best greens available.

[MrParr1Noid]

I thought Pebble Beach had poa annua greens. Anyone?

[CPSOX]

[quote name='MrParr1Noid' post='1888809' date='Aug 14 2009, 09:01 PM']I thought Pebble Beach had poa annua greens. Anyone?[/quote]


Correct.....same w/ Oakmont, Winged Foot, etc. Properly managed, poa will provide the fastest/smoothest surface you can find. Bad thing is, it takes a LONG time for it to get to that point.

[ZBigStick]

I heard that they will replace the greens at Hazeltine before the next big event. (Ryder Cup?, Presidents Cup?, 2016 PGA)

I am surprised they didn't have it done before this championship. The AAC in Atlanta in changing the greens to Champion Bermuda for the 2011 PGA. After the rain in 2001, the greens remained to soft, so it was either sub air systems or Bermuda that could thrive with less watering prior to an event.

When Poa had infected some of the bent grass greens down here in the 1990's it was like putting over velcro. It would stick and bump compared to the pure bent surface. The greens are always really bumpy at Pebble after the huge field of pros and ams.

[SergioKSU]

[quote name='Headgames' post='1888378' date='Aug 14 2009, 05:47 PM'][quote name='iteachgolf ' post='1888373' date='Aug 14 2009, 05:43 PM']Usually not by choice. Usually greens are a mix of it because it infested their greens. It's like a weed[/quote]

So you're telling me that with all the advaced horticultural techniques that modern course superintendants have at their disposal, they can't get rid of this grass? [b]I don't know[/b], that sounds a bit far fetched. If they wanted it gone, it'd be gone, just like all the other weeds. Otherwise, all the courses would be using "crab grass" greens...
[/quote]


I can tell.

[hbear]

I personally find well maintained Poa greens to be the very BEST surfaces to putt on.
But as posted the problem lies with how quickly it grows and can lead to "bumpier" greens in the afternoon ....but in the morning, there really is nothing better than putting on good fast and smooth poa greens.

But also posted above, it takes A LOT of work to get them and maintain them at that level.

[astamm8]

[quote name='ZBigStick' post='1888986' date='Aug 14 2009, 07:25 PM']I heard that they will replace the greens at Hazeltine before the next big event. (Ryder Cup?, Presidents Cup?, 2016 PGA)

I am surprised they didn't have it done before this championship. The AAC in Atlanta in changing the greens to Champion Bermuda for the 2011 PGA. After the rain in 2001, the greens remained to soft, so it was either sub air systems or Bermuda that could thrive with less watering prior to an event.

When Poa had infected some of the bent grass greens down here in the 1990's it was like putting over velcro. It would stick and bump compared to the pure bent surface. The greens are always really bumpy at Pebble after the huge field of pros and ams.[/quote]

there's a thread on here that talks about this, but the u.s. open is virtually always played on poa. most of the old line u.s. open type of courses are poa and have been for ages.

along that line, a benefit is that you can get poa running really fast, as they always are for an open.

there's something of a stir because chamber's bay's greens are not poa but rather fescue and getting them to u.s. open speeds may well be impossible.

[raidernut1234]

Poa has taken over the greens at my club (oakdalegcc.org) about 7 years ago. we have a new GM, and he had them dialed in for the last 4 years, until this summer. when they are bad, its like crapshoot putting. you gotta catch the right bump to get it in the hole 3-5 footers are nightmares, and the hole shrinks.
on the positive side. when they are right and crosscut and rolled, they are phenomenal to put on. breaking true,etc.
BUT it takes a ton of work to keep them this way...
and forget about putting on them after 5PM in the summertime.. stubble city.

[Shanks For The Memories]

[quote name='Headgames' post='1888365' date='Aug 14 2009, 05:40 PM']Why do so many courses use it on the greens?

All I ever seem to hear about when the Tour plays on a course with Poa Annua greens, is how beat up, bumpy, and generally bad the grass is for providing a true roll on the green.

I thought the whole point of choosing a different type of grass on the reen was to allow for a BETTER roll? Not only that, but you'd think they'd choose something that held up to the traffic a bit more.

Any thoughts?[/quote]


Poa Annua is actually a weed. While it was once used widely on golf courses due to its avalabilty and hardiness, it's being removed and replaced with the more popular putting green grasses like A4 bent (north) or TifEagle (south) pretty regularly now.

[AirTime23]

[quote name='astamm8' post='1889113' date='Aug 15 2009, 06:43 AM']there's something of a stir because chamber's bay's greens are not poa but rather fescue and getting them to u.s. open speeds may well be impossible.[/quote]

What I have heard from the greens at Chambers Bay, if they get the greens to US Open speeds the course will be unplayable...

[hurricanewarning]

Is Poa worse than Bermuda? Never played on Poa before, I'm play in warm weather all the time. But I question what makes a golf course infested with some kinda of weed on the greens suitable for a major championship or for any tour event for that matter, it's ridiculous IMO

[hbear]

Poa is very different than bermuda...poa doesn't really have any "grain".

And just because it's a "weed" doesn't mean it can't provide the best puttng surface for the players.
It just depends on how good the super is, and what his budget is as well.

If I'm not mistaken, most grass strains are "weeds" as well...
e.g. the bermuda grass you play on....so by your statement no tour events in Florida, Texas, southern Cal, Mexico, Hawaii, etc should ever host a tour event?

[hurricanewarning]

[quote name='hbear' post='1889684' date='Aug 15 2009, 01:29 PM']Poa is very different than bermuda...poa doesn't really have any "grain".

And just because it's a "weed" doesn't mean it can't provide the best puttng surface for the players.
It just depends on how good the super is, and what his budget is as well.

If I'm not mistaken, most grass strains are "weeds" as well...
e.g. the bermuda grass you play on....so by your statement no tour events in Florida, Texas, southern Cal, Mexico, Hawaii, etc should ever host a tour event?[/quote]

One thing is a bermuda green or a poa green, another thing is having a green infested weed and hold a major championship on it, just my opnion.

[ambro]

When you hear of Poa in a bad sense, it is generally referring to bentgrass or other type of green that has unwanted Poa infesting it, making it very bumpy. In many courses that have Poa greens though, including the ones that host majors, they deliberately have all Poa greens. They are two totally different situations.

[CPSOX]

[quote name='hurricanewarning' post='1889879' date='Aug 15 2009, 03:25 PM'][quote name='hbear' post='1889684' date='Aug 15 2009, 01:29 PM']Poa is very different than bermuda...poa doesn't really have any "grain".

And just because it's a "weed" doesn't mean it can't provide the best puttng surface for the players.
It just depends on how good the super is, and what his budget is as well.

If I'm not mistaken, most grass strains are "weeds" as well...
e.g. the bermuda grass you play on....so by your statement no tour events in Florida, Texas, southern Cal, Mexico, Hawaii, etc should ever host a tour event?[/quote]

One thing is a bermuda green or a poa green, another thing is having a green infested weed and hold a major championship on it, just my opnion.
[/quote]

Your definition of weed is skewed....it simply means in this case a plant that spreads quickly to places you don't want it to spread. Bent grass is a weed too, which is a good thing.....it means it's a GREAT plant for fairways because divots regenerate very quickly.

I'll take our bent/poa greens over any bermuda green....any day of the week. Far superior putting surface.

[Ryan_Less]

well this isn't the first time and it won't be the last time that a major is contested on poa... Torrey Pines is almost 100% poa and it was hailed as one of the greatest US Open's this century.

One thing is for sure though, that if you put Tiger on Poa Greens he will dominate... he grew up on them.

[Shanks For The Memories]

You know what they say, "You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think."

Time for some "grass 101."

Weeds are really defined as plants that reproduce agressively, so on a golf course, weeds are generally the best grasses to use, due to their ability to heal divots quickly. Putting greens would ideally be of less invasive, slower growing species, but these would be overun by other grasses.

Annual grasses throw up seeds regularly to reproduce. Annual plants seed, germinate, flower, reproduce, and die within a year. This is the only problem with using them on putting greens. Perrinial plants, on the other hand, generally come back from root stock. They don't throw up so many seed heads.

However, again, this rule isn't so well defined. Some perinnials throw up seeds, and some annuals don't. The real question is what does the particular grass do? A4 bent is probably the most revered putting green grass. A4 rolls very well, and is very smooth. Down south, TifEagle and other dwarf Bermudas are best.

Either way, there's nothing that's better than good maintinence. Any grass can make for a decent surface if it's well taken care of.

[dpark]

Poa is just a very, very aggressive grass (or weed depending on your point of view).

Most of the top courses in the Portland area have poa greens and they are PURE.

Portland GC (hosted a PGA championship and Ryder Cup)
Tualatin CC
Royal Oaks CC
Eugene CC

All of them have greens that they can speed up to 13 on the stimp. In the mornings, after being cut and rolled, they are the purest putting surfaces you can imagine. If you made the putt, you know it long before it gets to the hole, it rolls that true.

However, in the afternoons when the temps are in the mid-70s, the poa grows very quickly and in the afternoon, they can become bumpy and if you aren't willing to hit a short putt firmly enough that it could go 2 feet past the hole, it can bump offline and drive you crazy.

Pumpkin Ridge has finally given up on their bentgrass greens and is letting them go to poa. At least in the Northwest, you just can't fight the poa. It is the dominant native grass up here and will eventually beat out every other grass. It is a fight that just cannot be won without ridiculous costs (which is why Pumpkin has given up).

[AltusBeliever]

Two of the best sets of greens I have ever played-Northland Country Club and Ridgeview Country Club in Duluth MN- have greens that are largely poa. Due to the cool, damp weather there poa thrives with regular top dressing and proper care. This greens are so pure and fast. There is grain in them, too.