Drill to delay release

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='bscinstnct' date='17 January 2010 - 08:03 PM' timestamp='1263776622' post='2187815']
[quote name='dlygrisse' date='17 January 2010 - 07:40 PM' timestamp='1263775235' post='2187758']
[quote name='bscinstnct' date='17 January 2010 - 06:07 PM' timestamp='1263769678' post='2187577']
[quote name='dlygrisse' date='17 January 2010 - 05:34 PM' timestamp='1263767692' post='2187527']
[quote name='Kevin SHields' date='17 January 2010 - 05:29 PM' timestamp='1263767352' post='2187520']
Solid info Dave, but to your first point the shoulders and torso of good ball strikers do not continue rotating thru impact. They stop, or at least slow down significantly. Could you expand on your thoughts about this or do you advocate it as a feel?
[/quote]
Did Hogans shoulders slow down through impact? IMO his shoulders were opening through impact.
[/quote]

Okay, I'm busting out the ultra top secret info.

The death move of the right elbow, arm straightening too quick is probably most amplified by the hands overtaking the right shoulder too quickly
as a result of a too quick move from the top. Many times over the top in an effort to square up the face to fix a slice. But that is a whole
different story.

Just keeping the right shoulder moving through smoothly will take you to the left side with lag intact and it will bottom out if you maintain spine inclination
and naturally do the "slow down" and the club will release properly.
[/quote]
I agree with everything you say except that you need to slow down to let the club release. Maybe technically you do slow down but it should not be conscience. If you are rotating correctly it is physically impossible to stop from releasing, it just happens. IMO just keep turning thru slowly and face the target or even think of the right shoulder closer to the target than the left. The club will release.
[/quote]

I agree 100%. I do not think you should consciously slow down anything.
[/quote]
1st "discussion" that ended well for me all year, if only you were my wife....

[Kevin SHields]

[quote name='bscinstnct' date='17 January 2010 - 08:03 PM' timestamp='1263776622' post='2187815']
[quote name='dlygrisse' date='17 January 2010 - 07:40 PM' timestamp='1263775235' post='2187758']
[quote name='bscinstnct' date='17 January 2010 - 06:07 PM' timestamp='1263769678' post='2187577']
[quote name='dlygrisse' date='17 January 2010 - 05:34 PM' timestamp='1263767692' post='2187527']
[quote name='Kevin SHields' date='17 January 2010 - 05:29 PM' timestamp='1263767352' post='2187520']
Solid info Dave, but to your first point the shoulders and torso of good ball strikers do not continue rotating thru impact. They stop, or at least slow down significantly. Could you expand on your thoughts about this or do you advocate it as a feel?
[/quote]
Did Hogans shoulders slow down through impact? IMO his shoulders were opening through impact.
[/quote]

Okay, I'm busting out the ultra top secret info.

The death move of the right elbow, arm straightening too quick is probably most amplified by the hands overtaking the right shoulder too quickly
as a result of a too quick move from the top. Many times over the top in an effort to square up the face to fix a slice. But that is a whole
different story.

Just keeping the right shoulder moving through smoothly will take you to the left side with lag intact and it will bottom out if you maintain spine inclination
and naturally do the "slow down" and the club will release properly.
[/quote]
I agree with everything you say except that you need to slow down to let the club release. Maybe technically you do slow down but it should not be conscience. If you are rotating correctly it is physically impossible to stop from releasing, it just happens. IMO just keep turning thru slowly and face the target or even think of the right shoulder closer to the target than the left. The club will release.
[/quote]

I agree 100%. I do not think you should consciously slow down anything.
[/quote]


Consciously? Probably not. But a sure way to hit it short is to keep your shoulders and torso rotating into and past impact. The club will not just release. The guys like old Duval that appear to have rotated alot are the ones that have the club way behind them. They still have alot of decel before impact.

[cusegolfer]

I believe Hogan would hit shots with his right thumb and forefinger (index) off the shaft. I do this and find that you can't cast the club and it holds the release until centrifugal force takes over.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='cusegolfer' date='17 January 2010 - 05:28 PM' timestamp='1263778096' post='2187875']
it holds the release until centrifugal force takes over.
[/quote]

This is a concept lost on a lot of "lag holding" proponents.

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='Kevin SHields' date='17 January 2010 - 08:20 PM' timestamp='1263777634' post='2187850']
[quote name='bscinstnct' date='17 January 2010 - 08:03 PM' timestamp='1263776622' post='2187815']
[quote name='dlygrisse' date='17 January 2010 - 07:40 PM' timestamp='1263775235' post='2187758']
[quote name='bscinstnct' date='17 January 2010 - 06:07 PM' timestamp='1263769678' post='2187577']
[quote name='dlygrisse' date='17 January 2010 - 05:34 PM' timestamp='1263767692' post='2187527']
[quote name='Kevin SHields' date='17 January 2010 - 05:29 PM' timestamp='1263767352' post='2187520']
Solid info Dave, but to your first point the shoulders and torso of good ball strikers do not continue rotating thru impact. They stop, or at least slow down significantly. Could you expand on your thoughts about this or do you advocate it as a feel?
[/quote]
Did Hogans shoulders slow down through impact? IMO his shoulders were opening through impact.
[/quote]

Okay, I'm busting out the ultra top secret info.

The death move of the right elbow, arm straightening too quick is probably most amplified by the hands overtaking the right shoulder too quickly
as a result of a too quick move from the top. Many times over the top in an effort to square up the face to fix a slice. But that is a whole
different story.

Just keeping the right shoulder moving through smoothly will take you to the left side with lag intact and it will bottom out if you maintain spine inclination
and naturally do the "slow down" and the club will release properly.
[/quote]
I agree with everything you say except that you need to slow down to let the club release. Maybe technically you do slow down but it should not be conscience. If you are rotating correctly it is physically impossible to stop from releasing, it just happens. IMO just keep turning thru slowly and face the target or even think of the right shoulder closer to the target than the left. The club will release.
[/quote]

I agree 100%. I do not think you should consciously slow down anything.
[/quote]


Consciously? Probably not. But a sure way to hit it short is to keep your shoulders and torso rotating into and past impact. The club will not just release. The guys like old Duval that appear to have rotated alot are the ones that have the club way behind them. They still have alot of decel before impact.
[/quote]

I agree, the right shoulder bottoming out is like when you throw and the right shoulder hits a certain spot and the right elbow releases. You have
stopped actively rotating and the right shoulder just carries through from momentum.

[topaz330]

my instructor had me put a noodle or anything really about 6-7 inches behind the ball. then try to swing without hitting it. for me at least subconsciously it kept me from releasing early.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='topaz330' date='17 January 2010 - 07:51 PM' timestamp='1263786667' post='2188173']
my instructor had me put a noodle or anything really about 6-7 inches behind the ball. then try to swing without hitting it. for me at least subconsciously it kept me from releasing early.
[/quote]

I can see the possible merits of that drill, but if you are not careful, you can really narrow your arc, which can actually be worse than an early release...when it comes to accuracy.

[mister2cool]

[size="2"]Thanks for a lot of pointers. Let me add some video and pictures to the issues that I am trying to deal with. I think actually I used the wrong term while phrasing the question. It isn't really the question of delaying release, more about keeping the hands in front of the club at impact.

First up, this is a video for [b]half swing[/b]. As you can see it's not exactly half, more like a less than full. [/size]
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[size="2"]Next is the video for [b]full swing[/b]. [/size]
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[size="2"]Here is the impact position, and follow through of the full swing. As you can see, even though the hands were still leading the club head, they had already fallen behind the body at impact. I was never able to straighten the right arm into the follow through.
[attachment=524451:image2.php.jpg]
[attachment=524452:image4.php.jpg]

However, the impact and follow through position for the half swing is very different as shown here on the right:
[attachment=524455:image.php.jpg]

[/size][size="2"]I have been working on keeping my head behind the ball with the shaft starting out leaning toward the target, but quite often I hit it very fat (like 4 inches behind the ball) as the club had already reached ground before my hands could pass the ball. [/size]

[size="2"]Basically I thought if I am trying to find some way to help my full swing to be more like a slightly longer version of the half swing, and I thought a delayed release would help.

I don't have a problem with open club face. Actually quite the opposite, the videos show that my club face is a bit closed on top.

Ok now with this added information, maybe you guys can have more specific advices. Thanks!!!
[/size]

[carrera]

[quote name='mister2cool' date='17 January 2010 - 08:27 PM' timestamp='1263788856' post='2188246']
I have been working on keeping my head behind the ball with the shaft starting out leaning toward the target, but quite often I hit it very fat (like 4 inches behind the ball) as the club had already reached ground before my hands could pass the ball.
[/quote]

You may feel like you are keeping your head behind the ball, but your head and the rest of your body is moving well left on the downswing. Put a cursor next to your head or left hip to see the movement. That would make me think that your rotation is not good...you aren't turning as much as you are sliding.

[mister2cool]

[quote name='carrera' date='18 January 2010 - 12:44 AM' timestamp='1263793444' post='2188367']
[quote name='mister2cool' date='17 January 2010 - 08:27 PM' timestamp='1263788856' post='2188246']
I have been working on keeping my head behind the ball with the shaft starting out leaning toward the target, but quite often I hit it very fat (like 4 inches behind the ball) as the club had already reached ground before my hands could pass the ball.
[/quote]

You may feel like you are keeping your head behind the ball, but your head and the rest of your body is moving well left on the downswing. Put a cursor next to your head or left hip to see the movement. That would make me think that your rotation is not good...you aren't turning as much as you are sliding.
[/quote]

Agreed. That's why I am still working on it. But the head moved roughly the same in both swing, but impact and follow through are very different. Is that simply the result from a longer swing?

[MonteScheinblum]

I agree with Carrera. You have too much lateral hip movement and not enough hip rotation and that is why you are losing it a bit.

In my opinion it all starts with the takeaway. You arms, hands and shoulders are not swinging in sync, it causes your backswing to kind of be all over the place.

Try and work on making a shoulder turn away from the ball. If your swing is in better sync, the hips will turn better through impact and won't slide as much....that will keep you behind the ball as carrera said.

[mister2cool]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' date='18 January 2010 - 01:06 AM' timestamp='1263794789' post='2188398']
I agree with Carrera. You have too much lateral hip movement and not enough hip rotation and that is why you are losing it a bit.

In my opinion it all starts with the takeaway. [b]You arms, hands and shoulders are not swinging in sync, it causes your backswing to kind of be all over the place.[/b]

Try and work on making a shoulder turn away from the ball. If your swing is in better sync, the hips will turn better through impact and won't slide as much....that will keep you behind the ball as carrera said.
[/quote]

wow I didn't go back that far to look for a cause. Would you mind elaborate a little more on this?

[MonteScheinblum]

IMO, shoulders turning 90* to the spine control the takeaway. As soon as the shoulders stop turning, that is the end of the backswing.


Your takeaway is controlled by pushing your hands away from your body and then laying it off very early in the takeaway. If you look half way back the butt of your club is pointed well outside the ball. That is very flat. While your hips seem to be a little restricted to start they catch up and end up rotating a bit too much after your shoulder turn stops and you lift your hands to get the club out of that layed off position. That hand lift gets you moving left before you even start the down swing. Your choices are to move left more or hang back.

Now, that is a whole lot of technical info that is only important from an analysis standpoint, but here is what is important for you to know.

You set the club in a decent position, but how you got there was a problem because nothing worked together and it has you all out of sync as your start the downswing.

If you work on your shoulder turn controlling your backswing and not your hands...and as soon as your shoulder turn stops, that is the end of your backswing...I bet in a short time you won't be getting in front of it and you won't be having that early release.

Your rhythm and balance are excellent and you don't get out of balance very bad even though you do move to far to the left. Use these strengths to your advantage. having good rhythm and balance makes it really easy to swing in sync on the downswing...if your backswing is in sync.

Let me know if you have more questions.

[Kevin SHields]

Your video illustrates my point exactly. Your body starts sliding and unwinding too much and your arms desparately try to catch up. No kinetic snap. I disagree totally that you dont have an open face issue. Your face never closes coming down till the flip. The torque your downswing pivot puts on your arms in the transition opens the face more than it was at the top. That face is way too open approaching impact and your body has ran away from you.

[gvogel]

[quote name='mister2cool' date='18 January 2010 - 12:46 AM' timestamp='1263793594' post='2188370']
[quote name='carrera' date='18 January 2010 - 12:44 AM' timestamp='1263793444' post='2188367']
[quote name='mister2cool' date='17 January 2010 - 08:27 PM' timestamp='1263788856' post='2188246']
I have been working on keeping my head behind the ball with the shaft starting out leaning toward the target, but quite often I hit it very fat (like 4 inches behind the ball) as the club had already reached ground before my hands could pass the ball.
[/quote]

You may feel like you are keeping your head behind the ball, but your head and the rest of your body is moving well left on the downswing. Put a cursor next to your head or left hip to see the movement. That would make me think that your rotation is not good...you aren't turning as much as you are sliding.
[/quote]

Agreed. That's why I am still working on it. But the head moved roughly the same in both swing, but impact and follow through are very different. Is that simply the result from a longer swing?
[/quote]

In the longer swing your body is losing control over the club, as you can see by the chicken wing after impact.
Try this tempo and see if it improves - fast (first part of the backswing), slow (rest of the backswing), slow (first part of the downswing), fast (rest of the forward swing). Allow the tension of flow out of your hands and arms after the first part of the backswing.
Also, the head moving forward destroys the ultimate speed that your body can impart into the clubhead.

[mister2cool]

Thanks for the detailed advices everyone!

Monte, great analysis. You nailed quite a few issues I have been fighting, especially why my club kept going when I had stopped turning, and I didn't realize the problems started so early in the takeaway. Will start on the shoulder turn right away and report back in a little while.

[bscinstnct]

It looks to me like the[i] [/i]down swing path on your "half swing" is much better than the full swing and thus the release more natural. If you freeze impact on your half swing it looks very good. You are letting the club
fall much more naturally down a good line.

On the full swing, I think you are coming a little ott just a bit.

What was the ball flight and distance of the half swing compare to the full swing?

[mister2cool]

[quote name='bscinstnct' date='18 January 2010 - 10:55 AM' timestamp='1263830117' post='2188796']
It looks to me like the[i] [/i]down swing path on your "half swing" is much better than the full swing and thus the release more natural. If you freeze impact on your half swing it looks very good. You are letting the club
fall much more naturally down a good line.

On the full swing, I think you are coming a little ott just a bit.

[b]What was the ball flight and distance of the half swing compare to the full swing?[/b]
[/quote]

Can't tell ya! LOL.. well the video was when I was taking lessons at GolfTec, so you do not see the ball flight or distance.

[mikpga]

I don't think this drill has been mentioned yet...

Shut Face Drill...

Look it up in Slicefixer's Encyclopedia Texarkana...