Drill to delay release

[mister2cool]

Suggestions welcome

Hello all
I am having a problem with early release. It is causing a whole slew of other problems such as unable to keep the hands in front of the club, chicken wing (slightly) impact because there is not enough room not to fold left arm, and not enough extension with follow through.

So I am looking for drills that helps to delay release. The only one I know is split grip (hockey grip), while it does seem to help my left wrist hold the hinge longer, and force the right hand to be more passive, it doesn't seem to help with the actual release. After some hockey grip drill, I began to slice the ball badly because my normal release could no longer catch up.

I am wondering what other drills there are for this particular purpose. Thanks!!

Edit, video and pics added in Post #38

[Scottk]

This is not a drill but a training aid that I am considering getting.

www.trueympact.com

I have heard good things about it but have not used it.

[bscinstnct]

Okay, this is top secret so don't tell anybody.

Let your right shoulder lead your hands, which will in turn, lead the club through impact. Smooth.

Just like a throw. Smooth right shoulder through "impact". Release delayed til the last possible moment.

[MonteScheinblum]

First thing to check is to see of your swing is too long. That can cause what I call a passive cast because you aren't generating enough rotational speed to get the club back to the ball without an early release.

Trying to "delay the release" can get you in big trouble if you do it with your hands. I am of the opinion that the opposite of an early release in not a delayed release. A "forced" delayed release is just another bad release because it can cause a separate slew of problems. Open club face, underneath the plane, diving at it, narrowing of the arc...etc.

To me, learning a proper release is the answer. If you swing the club at waist level slowly standing straight up and down you will understand what a proper release feels like. The faster you swing it, the more you will feel centrifugal force releasing it for you.

Then if you use the turning of your shoulders and lower body in sync to control the club instead of your hands, you will delay the release naturally instead of doing it with your hands and possibly causing all of the above problems. You can also try checking you grip pressure and make sure both hands are the same..and it's staying constant.

An early release and a delayed release are just two sides of the same coin. One you use your right hand to cast it, the other you use your hands to avoid the cast.

[JRS]

i used to cast badly. i spent lot of time practice swinging trying to feel where in the swing this move started. the 2 things i noticed were my butt would swing away from the target and my right elbow would pull away from my body and turn the right arm "over the top".

to avoid this, at the start of my down swing i concentrate on keeping my right elbow close to my ribs. a bonus effect of this is as your right elbow comes through drags the right hip with it.

i'm no golf teacher, so take what i say with a grain of salt. it helped me a lot though.

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='bscinstnct' date='16 January 2010 - 09:00 PM' timestamp='1263693656' post='2186000']
Okay, this is top secret so don't tell anybody.

Let your right shoulder lead your hands, which will in turn, lead the club through impact. Smooth.

Just like a throw. Smooth right shoulder through "impact". Release delayed til the last possible moment.
[/quote]
Shhhhh....don't tell anyone

Actually my instructor got me doing something very similar, after years of trying to start the swing with the turning of the hips like Hogan or swinging the clubhead I found the the right shoulder move works very well, it feels like you are coming over the top but actually you are coming down on plane. One more example of how golf is a game of opposites, feel vs. real etc. To me it is similar to Tom Watson's secret. BTW my insturctor, who probably has never been on You Tube, learned golf from a guy who was very good friends with Stan Thirsk, and a former PGA tour player. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6cntSpVbZo

[Jeff Evans]

Maximum Trigger Delay
[attachment=523962:Clearing the Hips.jpg]

[goldfinger007]

"In a good golf swing there are certain things that should be [i]caused[/i] to happen and other things that should be [i]allowed. [/i]Faults arise when we try to cause things to happen which should be allowed". The release is one of those things we should allow.

[tm22721]

This [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBu30VbvBRY"]video[/url] explains clearly how to prevent the club from releasing too early.

In other words, move your hands in a straight line path from the top toward the ball and don't let your hands move in a circular motion until you get to where the club is parallel to the ground. This is what the best ballstrikers do. In particular, Hogan made sure that his body cleared out of the way very early giving his hands a straight line path to the ball.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='tm22721' date='17 January 2010 - 07:28 AM' timestamp='1263734906' post='2186630']
This [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBu30VbvBRY"]video[/url] explains clearly how to prevent the club from releasing too early.

In other words, move your hands in a straight line path from the top toward the ball and don't let your hands move in a circular motion until you get to where the club is parallel to the ground. This is what the best ballstrikers do. In particular, Hogan made sure that his body cleared out of the way very early giving his hands a straight line path to the ball.
[/quote]

Great video. A lot of folks like to tease Jeff for being so analytical, but most of his presentations are brilliant IMHO. I enjoy his work very much.

Kevin

[Kevin SHields]

The first thing you have to check before anything is that you're not not throwing it away bacause you're face is open. If it is you'll never, ever lead with the handle. Fix that first. An easy drill ive used is try to make a swing and peel out a normal divot. Then while keeping your head back, try to cut out a couple more divots, each time starting them at the end of the one prior. You really have to do some desirables with your pivot to do this.

[2bGood]

I found Confession of former Flipper helpful with this. http://www.brianmanzella.com/video/. $9 to buy it but it, but if it wins a you fee skins or saved you a few lost balls, it payed for.

one drill he gives that i found worked is swinging a towel against a wall (with a golf swing), in order to really smack the wall you have to keep you hands ahead of the towel and release the correct way.

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='dlygrisse' date='17 January 2010 - 06:45 AM' timestamp='1263728713' post='2186556']
[quote name='bscinstnct' date='16 January 2010 - 09:00 PM' timestamp='1263693656' post='2186000']
Okay, this is top secret so don't tell anybody.

Let your right shoulder lead your hands, which will in turn, lead the club through impact. Smooth.

Just like a throw. Smooth right shoulder through "impact". Release delayed til the last possible moment.
[/quote]
Shhhhh....don't tell anyone

Actually my instructor got me doing something very similar, after years of trying to start the swing with the turning of the hips like Hogan or swinging the clubhead I found the the right shoulder move works very well, it feels like you are coming over the top but actually you are coming down on plane. One more example of how golf is a game of opposites, feel vs. real etc. To me it is similar to Tom Watson's secret. BTW my insturctor, who probably has never been on You Tube, learned golf from a guy who was very good friends with Stan Thirsk, and a former PGA tour player. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6cntSpVbZo"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=b6cntSpVbZo[/url]
[/quote]


Check le swing de Greg Norman.

Very little upper and lower body separation, yet he crushes the ball.

Good slow mo clips start about 50 seconds into the vid.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wzy-lEacpI&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.c...feature=related[/url]

Compare to Rickie Fowler. Forward to 45 seconds in.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmcQikb1TX0&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.c...feature=related[/url]

[DaveLeeNC]

First thing to check is to see of your swing is too long. That can cause what I call a passive cast because you aren't generating enough rotational speed to get the club back to the ball without an early release.

 

Trying to "delay the release" can get you in big trouble if you do it with your hands. I am of the opinion that the opposite of an early release in not a delayed release. A "forced" delayed release is just another bad release because it can cause a separate slew of problems. Open club face, underneath the plane, diving at it, narrowing of the arc...etc.

 

To me, learning a proper release is the answer. If you swing the club at waist level slowly standing straight up and down you will understand what a proper release feels like. The faster you swing it, the more you will feel centrifugal force releasing it for you.

 

Then if you use the turning of your shoulders and lower body in sync to control the club instead of your hands, you will delay the release naturally instead of doing it with your hands and possibly causing all of the above problems. You can also try checking you grip pressure and make sure both hands are the same..and it's staying constant.

 

An early release and a delayed release are just two sides of the same coin. One you use your right hand to cast it, the other you use your hands to avoid the cast.

 

I most definitely agree with the above post (like Monte has been waiting with baited breath for my approval ). But I have also found that there are also 'inhibitors' that need to be avoided.

 

1) Decent lag will require that you maintain your torso and shoulder rotation through impact. You may find this position at impact to be quite different than what you are used to. And the first time you "do it" you quite possibly will feel awkward and hit the ball badly - which may well be the last time you make this proper move.

 

2) If you are a flipper you are probably very comfortable with a vertical (or worse leaning away from the target) shaft position at impact. You need to get comfortable with a forward shaft lean at impact (pitches and half swings are a good start).

 

3) If you can't hit a 3/4 pitch shot with something resembling OK lag, you will never hit a full shot with anything resembling good lag. Start with the easy shots first.

 

dave (better lag than 2 years ago - wish it was better)

[MonteScheinblum]

#3 is a great point that everyone shold be aware of.

[Kevin SHields]

Solid info Dave, but to your first point the shoulders and torso of good ball strikers do not continue rotating thru impact. They stop, or at least slow down significantly. Could you expand on your thoughts about this or do you advocate it as a feel?

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='Kevin SHields' date='17 January 2010 - 05:29 PM' timestamp='1263767352' post='2187520']
Solid info Dave, but to your first point the shoulders and torso of good ball strikers do not continue rotating thru impact. They stop, or at least slow down significantly. Could you expand on your thoughts about this or do you advocate it as a feel?
[/quote]
Did Hogans shoulders slow down through impact? IMO his shoulders were opening through impact.

[zmaz]

I'm not sure there is any trick to "delaying" the release, since in a good release it isn't conscious, and it isn't delayed at all. The point is to have your body and arms working in the correct direction, at the correct relative speed. We are all athletes, and we know "how" to hit a ball, so our release is generally that which allows us to strike the ball given the position we are in at the top, and at the end of transition. The better question is "how do I get myself into a position where my release is fundamentally correct?" rather than "how do I delay the release of my hands?"


Anyway, the answer to that question for me, from the position I am in at the top is that during my transition my hands need to move down rather quickly, rather than staying crunched up near my right shoulder. I practice the feeling of my hands being down at hip height at the same time that my left knee has finished its re-rotation/drive towar the target. In reality, I will never get there, but it is the feeling I have.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Kevin SHields' date='17 January 2010 - 05:29 PM' timestamp='1263767352' post='2187520']
Solid info Dave, but to your first point the shoulders and torso of good ball strikers do not continue rotating thru impact. They stop, or at least slow down significantly. Could you expand on your thoughts about this or do you advocate it as a feel?
[/quote]

Kevin, I agree that they (shoulder/torso turn) may well slow down, but would disagree that they stop. Two references.

1) Monte's reply (2nd post) in this thread [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/329709-early-hip-extension/"]http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/329709-early-hip-extension/[/url]

2) Unless you are skilled enough to delay your release 'artificially' your lag will start to disappear as soon as you stop driving your turn. Note that the fact that you continue to apply rotational force doesn't mean that your turn continues to have angular acceleration (hopefully some momentum is being transferred to the club). My point was that if you tend to 'stall out' you probably have a different impact position than you would have if you don't 'stall out'. If that new position is uncomfortable and initially tends to generate poor shots (seems quite possible), then your 'golfing subconsious' will tend to quickly reject that position.

dave

[avrag]

There have been very good suggestions from real experts already. Having had the problem myself, I cannot stress enough how true the statements about body rotation are. And it is also extremely important to not try to "hold" the lag consciously, because it will just lead to a grip that is too tight and to sore forearms, or even tendonitis.
Two things helped me personally the most in achieving better lag and and later release.
1) Float loading. I think Brian Manzella says it in his "Confessions of a Former Flipper" video: "If you are still adding lag at the start of downswing, it is really hard to throw it away too early".
2) The thought of "leaving the hands and club behind" at the start of the downswing. Now, this may also be a Manzella quote, or maybe a Shawn Clement quote, I do not know. But the thought helped me.
(At least until I started overdoing it which led to an underplane downswing and low hooks, but that is another story. And there is cure for that as well).

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='dlygrisse' date='17 January 2010 - 05:34 PM' timestamp='1263767692' post='2187527']
[quote name='Kevin SHields' date='17 January 2010 - 05:29 PM' timestamp='1263767352' post='2187520']
Solid info Dave, but to your first point the shoulders and torso of good ball strikers do not continue rotating thru impact. They stop, or at least slow down significantly. Could you expand on your thoughts about this or do you advocate it as a feel?
[/quote]
Did Hogans shoulders slow down through impact? IMO his shoulders were opening through impact.
[/quote]

Okay, I'm busting out the ultra top secret info.

The death move of the right elbow, arm straightening too quick is probably most amplified by the hands overtaking the right shoulder too quickly
as a result of a too quick move from the top. Many times over the top in an effort to square up the face to fix a slice. But that is a whole
different story.

Just keeping the right shoulder moving through smoothly will take you to the left side with lag intact and it will bottom out if you maintain spine inclination
and naturally do the "slow down" and the club will release properly.

[zmaz]

There have been very good suggestions from real experts already. Having had the problem myself, I cannot stress enough how true the statements about body rotation are. And it is also extremely important to not try to "hold" the lag consciously, because it will just lead to a grip that is too tight and to sore forearms, or even tendonitis.

Two things helped me personally the most in achieving better lag and and later release.

1) Float loading. I think Brian Manzella says it in his "Confessions of a Former Flipper" video: "If you are still adding lag at the start of downswing, it is really hard to throw it away too early".

2) The thought of "leaving the hands and club behind" at the start of the downswing. Now, this may also be a Manzella quote, or maybe a Shawn Clement quote, I do not know. But the thought helped me.

(At least until I started overdoing it which led to an underplane downswing and low hooks, but that is another story. :D And there is cure for that as well).

 

I've never been convinced of this. Here are two pics of me in transition. One had more throwaway than I would like at impact, and the other was very solid. I bet you can't guess which is which. :)

 

 

 

 

[russc1597187869]

If you continue your rotation ,lag will follow naturally.I would expand upon Monte's third suggestion.If you can not retain your lag on long chip shots,there is no way that lag can be maintained on the full swing.Ben Doyle emphasizes the correct chip shot with all beginiing players.Try Slicefixers extended club drill.Just cut out a hole in the top of the grip and put an old shaft or rod in the hole.Then set up with the hands ahead of the ball with the shaft against your left side.Make long to very long chip shots.If you do not rotate your body your left side will be sore in no time.After a couple of chip shots with the extended shaft,try chipping without the extended shaft.Then put the shaft in ETC.

[Kevin SHields]

Good topic. Watch the sgirt buttons up to, then during impact. Some serious decel.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7syEPDKm_U&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.c...feature=related[/url]

[birly-shirly]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' date='17 January 2010 - 06:27 AM' timestamp='1263709648' post='2186414']
First thing to check is to see of your swing is too long. That can cause what I call a passive cast because you aren't generating enough rotational speed to get the club back to the ball without an early release.

Trying to "delay the release" can get you in big trouble if you do it with your hands. I am of the opinion that the opposite of an early release in not a delayed release. A "forced" delayed release is just another bad release because it can cause a separate slew of problems. Open club face, underneath the plane, diving at it, narrowing of the arc...etc.

To me, learning a proper release is the answer. If you swing the club at waist level slowly standing straight up and down you will understand what a proper release feels like. The faster you swing it, the more you will feel centrifugal force releasing it for you.

Then if you use the turning of your shoulders and lower body in sync to control the club instead of your hands, you will delay the release naturally instead of doing it with your hands and possibly causing all of the above problems. You can also try checking you grip pressure and make sure both hands are the same..and it's staying constant.

An early release and a delayed release are just two sides of the same coin. One you use your right hand to cast it, the other you use your hands to avoid the cast.
[/quote]

Lots of stuff in Monte's post here that I worry might get passed over here for its deceptive simplicity.

There is what I take to be solid physics behind point 1. Not sure about the emphasis on "rotational speed" as it depends what you understand by the term, given that virtually everything in a golf swing is moving in some sort of curve. However, as far as I'm aware, Ted Jorgensen "proved" in the Physics of Golf that shorter backswings result in more retained lag, with a bonus of [i]little or no decrease in clubhead speed[/i]. Longer backswings result in less shaft lean, but little or no increase in clubhead speed.

He also "proved" that the most efficient release is a passive release, in other words, that almost any attempt to apply additional speed to the clubhead by way of the muscular application of the wrists is actually counter-productive. I think his calculations showed that, with superhuman timing, it might be theoretically possible to increase clubhead speed by something in the order of 1 - 2% - but that was the theoretical limit with significant risk of making matters considerably worse with any mis-timing of the action. Don't try it at home.

[gvogel]

[quote name='mister2cool' date='16 January 2010 - 08:16 PM' timestamp='1263690996' post='2185901']
Hello all
I am having a problem with early release. It is causing a whole slew of other problems such as unable to keep the hands in front of the club, chicken wing (slightly) impact because there is not enough room not to fold left arm, and not enough extension with follow through.

So I am looking for drills that helps to delay release. The only one I know is split grip (hockey grip), while it does seem to help my left wrist hold the hinge longer, and force the right hand to be more passive, it doesn't seem to help with the actual release. After some hockey grip drill, I began to slice the ball badly because my normal release could no longer catch up.

I am wondering what other drills there are for this particular purpose. Thanks!!
[/quote]

1. You don't want to time the release - it should happen as part of the swing, and controlled by the body.
2. Nicklaus said that you can't release early enough if everything has been done correctly beforehand. Sort of like Hogan saying he wished he had 3 right hands.
The drill - tee up a ball slightly with a 5-iron. As you start your backswing, left your left foot off the ground and move it towards your right foot. Start your forward swing by moving the left foot back to its original position.
this is not an easy drill to do, but when you get the sequence and balance down, your release will be well-timed, and more importantly, effortless. Keep your hands and arms so relaxed that they move as a reaction to, instead of separately from, the body.

As an added benefit, your tempo and sequencing should improve. The drill will also help you learn the proper length for your own backswing. Robert Borgatti's book [b]A Swing you can Trust[/b] might be helpful

[Kevin SHields]

[quote name='gvogel' date='17 January 2010 - 07:22 PM' timestamp='1263774142' post='2187720']
[quote name='mister2cool' date='16 January 2010 - 08:16 PM' timestamp='1263690996' post='2185901']
Hello all
I am having a problem with early release. It is causing a whole slew of other problems such as unable to keep the hands in front of the club, chicken wing (slightly) impact because there is not enough room not to fold left arm, and not enough extension with follow through.

So I am looking for drills that helps to delay release. The only one I know is split grip (hockey grip), while it does seem to help my left wrist hold the hinge longer, and force the right hand to be more passive, it doesn't seem to help with the actual release. After some hockey grip drill, I began to slice the ball badly because my normal release could no longer catch up.

I am wondering what other drills there are for this particular purpose. Thanks!!
[/quote]

1. You don't want to time the release - it should happen as part of the swing, and controlled by the body.
2. Nicklaus said that you can't release early enough if everything has been done correctly beforehand. Sort of like Hogan saying he wished he had 3 right hands.
The drill - tee up a ball slightly with a 5-iron. As you start your backswing, left your left foot off the ground and move it towards your right foot. Start your forward swing by moving the left foot back to its original position.
this is not an easy drill to do, but when you get the sequence and balance down, your release will be well-timed, and more importantly, effortless. Keep your hands and arms so relaxed that they move as a reaction to, instead of separately from, the body.

As an added benefit, your tempo and sequencing should improve. The drill will also help you learn the proper length for your own backswing. Robert Borgatti's book [b]A Swing you can Trust[/b] might be helpful
[/quote]


Awesome drill

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='bscinstnct' date='17 January 2010 - 06:07 PM' timestamp='1263769678' post='2187577']
[quote name='dlygrisse' date='17 January 2010 - 05:34 PM' timestamp='1263767692' post='2187527']
[quote name='Kevin SHields' date='17 January 2010 - 05:29 PM' timestamp='1263767352' post='2187520']
Solid info Dave, but to your first point the shoulders and torso of good ball strikers do not continue rotating thru impact. They stop, or at least slow down significantly. Could you expand on your thoughts about this or do you advocate it as a feel?
[/quote]
Did Hogans shoulders slow down through impact? IMO his shoulders were opening through impact.
[/quote]

Okay, I'm busting out the ultra top secret info.

The death move of the right elbow, arm straightening too quick is probably most amplified by the hands overtaking the right shoulder too quickly
as a result of a too quick move from the top. Many times over the top in an effort to square up the face to fix a slice. But that is a whole
different story.

Just keeping the right shoulder moving through smoothly will take you to the left side with lag intact and it will bottom out if you maintain spine inclination
and naturally do the "slow down" and the club will release properly.
[/quote]
I agree with everything you say except that you need to slow down to let the club release. Maybe technically you do slow down but it should not be conscience. If you are rotating correctly it is physically impossible to stop from releasing, it just happens. IMO just keep turning thru slowly and face the target or even think of the right shoulder closer to the target than the left. The club will release.

[mister2cool]

Wow.. great stuff guys, I am have to digest all the things posted here.

Yes I do have a relatively long swing. It has gotten much shorter but I am still working hard on making it more compact.
I can do a 1/2 swing pitch shot and have perfect release positions, so the problem only comes in full swing, which could have to do with long back swing.

The rest.. I have to read more

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='dlygrisse' date='17 January 2010 - 07:40 PM' timestamp='1263775235' post='2187758']
[quote name='bscinstnct' date='17 January 2010 - 06:07 PM' timestamp='1263769678' post='2187577']
[quote name='dlygrisse' date='17 January 2010 - 05:34 PM' timestamp='1263767692' post='2187527']
[quote name='Kevin SHields' date='17 January 2010 - 05:29 PM' timestamp='1263767352' post='2187520']
Solid info Dave, but to your first point the shoulders and torso of good ball strikers do not continue rotating thru impact. They stop, or at least slow down significantly. Could you expand on your thoughts about this or do you advocate it as a feel?
[/quote]
Did Hogans shoulders slow down through impact? IMO his shoulders were opening through impact.
[/quote]

Okay, I'm busting out the ultra top secret info.

The death move of the right elbow, arm straightening too quick is probably most amplified by the hands overtaking the right shoulder too quickly
as a result of a too quick move from the top. Many times over the top in an effort to square up the face to fix a slice. But that is a whole
different story.

Just keeping the right shoulder moving through smoothly will take you to the left side with lag intact and it will bottom out if you maintain spine inclination
and naturally do the "slow down" and the club will release properly.
[/quote]
I agree with everything you say except that you need to slow down to let the club release. Maybe technically you do slow down but it should not be conscience. If you are rotating correctly it is physically impossible to stop from releasing, it just happens. IMO just keep turning thru slowly and face the target or even think of the right shoulder closer to the target than the left. The club will release.
[/quote]

I agree 100%. I do not think you should consciously slow down anything.