Time to change this rule?

[Hairpie]

While watching the LPGA tourney this weekend I was absolutely stupefied by the number of players that can't seem to play a single shot without having their caddy line them up. I personally think its becoming a bit ridiculous. I have no problem with the caddy helping them read putts but IMHO the alignment coaching has to go.....Shouldn't a tour pro be able to line up his/her own golf shot?..It looks ridiculous on TV especially when the camera is directly behind the player and then moves a second or two prior to the swing. I think it takes away from the coverage and I think it should be banned. While I'm sure it happens on both tours it seems to be a epidemic on the LPGA.... I'd love to others' opinions on this....

[Bomb and Gouge]

I noticed this a few months ago.

I rarely see it on the PGA Tour. I can't name a single player who does this.

It's silly! And if the LPGA wants to grow their fan base and viewership, they should do something to curb it.

[anth]

Greg Chalmers does this.

How is it different to caddies lining up putts?

[pittsy]

Kevin Na does this.<div><br></div><div>What's wrong with it? It's very easy to get off line so when you have someone check your alignment you can hit it more consistent.</div>

[Hairpie]

[quote name='anth' date='30 March 2010 - 08:58 PM' timestamp='1270007938' post='2351812']
Greg Chalmers does this.

How is it different to caddies lining up putts?
[/quote]


I have no problem with caddies helping a player READ a putt....I think alignment should be part of playing a golf shot...

[jwalaballa]

I have to agree. I don't think anyone should be able to be on the line of play after the player has addressed the ball. It is slowing down play, and lining up a shot should be part of the skill involved in playing golf.

[OldSkoolTexan]

[quote name='jwalaballa' date='31 March 2010 - 01:22 AM' timestamp='1270020130' post='2352053']
I have to agree. I don't think anyone should be able to be on the line of play after the player has addressed the ball. It is slowing down play, and lining up a shot should be part of the skill involved in playing golf.
[/quote]
<br><br>
+1, exactly.... It's BUSHLEAGUE! I noticed Na having his caddy help him with alignment. No wonder he plays slower than molasses. It's at epidemic proportions on the LPGA Tour, like the OP stated, and should be BANNED. Actually, they shouldnt ban it, maybe just assess a stroke penalty.<br><br>
If you reach the level of a Tour pro, no matter which tour it is, you SHOULD be able to align yourself to the target. If not, then you need to work on that with your swing coach or on the range. They assess a penalty if you lay your club on the tee box to aid with alignment so what is the difference with the caddy assistance??

[KYMAR]

To me, it's simply a part of the pre-shot routine these players have worked out for themselves. They are pro's they do this for a living, they are trying to win and are doing anything they can to accomplish those goals. Especially on the LPGA the purses are smaller, tournaments are fewer and the future is uncertain, if that was me and I was a middle of the road player, a cut making top 40 finisher grinder type, I would do anything i could within the rules to give myself the very best chance to post my best finish.

And how do you seriously come up with such a huge distinction between reading a putt and verifying aim. especially when your reasoning is "I have no problem with caddies helping a player READ a putt....I think alignment should be part of playing a golf shot... " HUH? isn't reading a putt about aim and alignment? Also, by your rationale, should caddy's not be allowed to discuss/suggest what club to hit? Making adjustments for wind, elevation change, rain, course conditions etc is all "part of playing a golf shot" isn't it?

[jwalaballa]

Reading a putt is not the same as aligning a player from directly behind the ball, in my opinion. All of the other things you mentioned (club selection, wind, elevation, temp, etc) are part of 'reading' shots. There's no doubt that this alignment technique is within the rules, and some players will do anything within the rules to get an advantage.

[OldSkoolTexan]

[quote name='jwalaballa' date='31 March 2010 - 02:56 AM' timestamp='1270025816' post='2352081']
Reading a putt is not the same as aligning a player from directly behind the ball, in my opinion. All of the other things you mentioned (club selection, wind, elevation, temp, etc) are part of 'reading' shots. There's no doubt that this alignment technique is within the rules, and some players will do anything within the rules to get an advantage.
[/quote]
<br><br>
Definitely. A caddy reading a putt is the same as giving all of the information needed for the player to decide what shot to play. The caddy gives all the information, then the player decides what to do with it. Here's what the late Bobby Jones had to say about subjects such as this:<br><br>
[b]If I needed advice from my caddie, he'd be hitting the shots and I'd be carrying the bag.[/b]<br>
[b]- Bobby Jones [/b]

<br><br>I could have SWORN I even saw Creamer have her caddy do a drill where he holds her head while she takes practice swings. I think it was in between holes. Isnt that getting coaching/instruction? Maybe she should have been DQ'd....

[jwalaballa]

The caddy is allowed to coach the player on the course I believe.

[mozgolf]

Would be a good idea to get rid of it purely as a pace of play issue. if everyone did this OMG the rounds would be super slow, then they would be doing it for full shots on the course....

[shorrrno]

How about a rule that states that once a player has addressed the ball his/her caddy may not:

a) stand within x yard/ x degrees directly behind the player

and/or

b) give advice or information to the player regarding the shot

[ckay]

It has been a problem on the LPGA for years. They made a provision to the rules, that yes, they can help with alignment but must step away. It wasn't too long ago where caddies would line them up and stay directly behind the golfer through the shot.

[Turbs]

If I recall Na gets his caddie to assist him due to a vision problem, thought I heard that on a telecast some time ago??

Turbs.

[clc55]

[quote name='Turbs' date='31 March 2010 - 08:31 AM' timestamp='1270038710' post='2352262']
If I recall Na gets his caddie to assist him due to a vision problem, thought I heard that on a telecast some time ago??

Turbs.
[/quote]

+1 on this. I remember hearing that he had lasick a year or two ago and was experiencing blurry vision. He couldn't see more than like 50yards or something crazy but I think it has since been corrected.

[RICKYBOBBY]

If I cannot for instance put a tee on the ground infront of the ball to help my alignment (a couple yards in front) why can the caddie line up a tour pro.

[TMfan54]

i think it is legal and no real good way to enforce the banning of it, but it definitely looks terrible. i think it just looks embarrassing.

[OpusX20]

[quote name='OldSkoolTexan' date='31 March 2010 - 04:49 AM' timestamp='1270028962' post='2352095']
I could have SWORN I even saw Creamer have her caddy do a drill where he holds her head while she takes practice swings. I think it was in between holes. Isnt that getting coaching/instruction? Maybe she should have been DQ'd....
[/quote]

[size="2"][i]Rule 8-1 Advice

[/i][/size][left][size="2"][i]During a [/i][/size][i][size="2"]stipulated round[/size][font="GillSans-Light"][size="2"], a player must not:[/size][/left]
[/font][/i][left][size="2"][i]a. [/i][/size][size="2"][i]give advice [/size][size="2"]to anyone in the competition playing on the course [/i][/size][size="2"][i]other than his partner[/size][font="GillSans-Light"][size="2"], or[/size][/left]
[/font][/i][left][size="2"][i]b. [/i][/size][size="2"][i]ask for advice [/size][size="2"]from anyone other than his partner [/i][/size][size="2"][i]or either of their caddies[/size][size="1"][font="GillSans-Light"][size="1"][size="2"].[/size][/left]
[/size][/size][/font][/i]

[Mtngolfer1]

I don't have a problem with it. It is within the rules of golf and I don't see a problem with pace of play on the LPGA tour. It takes seconds it not like the caddy is making all kinds of alignment changes he is just confirming alignment most of the time and if it needs a tweak he lets his player know. The caddy is often paid a percentage of the prize money this is just another way he earns it and assures his living.

[odieaxp]

If you are pro you should not get help lining up shots. Aim is part of the skill of making a golf shot. Reading a put is no different than giving the yardage to the hole it is information that the golfer uses to apply there skill. I beleave that it is against the rules for a caddy to mark an aiming point for a putt, for example holding the flag at the break point. If the caddy reads the putt the golfer still needs to aim the ball themselves using that information. If the caddy gives advise on club selection, wind direction and perfered landing area on the green the golfer should still have to aim the shot themselves using that information.

[gvogel]

[quote name='Hairpie' date='31 March 2010 - 12:05 AM' timestamp='1270008328' post='2351831']
[quote name='anth' date='30 March 2010 - 08:58 PM' timestamp='1270007938' post='2351812']
Greg Chalmers does this.

How is it different to caddies lining up putts?
[/quote]


I have no problem with caddies helping a player READ a putt....[b]I think alignment should be part of playing a golf shot[/b]...
[/quote]

I absolutely agree. If a ball moves after you address the ball, you incur a penalty. The act of getting ready to play a shot is almost as important as making the stroke. Alignment should not be assisted by the caddy, IMHO.

[Shwagin1066]

[quote name='Mtngolfer1' date='31 March 2010 - 10:53 AM' timestamp='1270047235' post='2352533']
I don't have a problem with it. It is within the rules of golf and I don't see a problem with pace of play on the LPGA tour. It takes seconds it not like the caddy is making all kinds of alignment changes he is just confirming alignment most of the time and if it needs a tweak he lets his player know. The caddy is often paid a percentage of the prize money this is just another way he earns it and assures his living.
[/quote]

5 seconds per player I'd say. Times 3 players in a group. Times 9 (minimum) shots a hole. We're talking more than 10 minutes on a round. And not to mention it's flat out embarrassing IMO.

[bermuda]

In one of Jack Nicklaus' "Lesson Tees" that was in Golf Digest years ago, he encouraged players to read their own putts and rely on their own decisions. The drawing showed Nicklaus crouched behind a putt and Angelo sitting on the MacGregor bag in the background.

I agree that players should read and align their own putts, but, as Sawgrass pointed out, it's within the rules for caddies to help. I don't think there would be any way to change the rule other than to say caddies and partners cannot help with anything. I don't think you could go down the list of things that go into deciding how to play a shot and say caddies and partners can help with some but not others, e.g., a caddy can help you line up a chip but not a putt.

[Bomb and Gouge]

PGA Tour pros are very good at reading putts. But the greens they play on are so fast that an EXACT read is needed. Plus they're playing a different course every week.



IMO- there's absolutely no reason a golfer should need help with alignment in the fairway. And certainly not on EVERY SHOT!

[Douty]

It might just be me, but didn't Nick Faldo have Fanny line him up before every shot? If I remember right she would stand behind him just up until he started his swing and then she would move away. Did people complain about Faldo when he was winning majors?

[volrus]

Kip Henley lines up Brian Gay on his tee shots I know, can't remember if he does it on his irons and putts.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='bermuda' date='31 March 2010 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1270068183' post='2353255']
In one of Jack Nicklaus' "Lesson Tees" that was in Golf Digest years ago, he encouraged players to read their own putts and rely on their own decisions. The drawing showed Nicklaus crouched behind a putt and Angelo sitting on the MacGregor bag in the background.

I agree that players should read and align their own putts, but, as Sawgrass pointed out, it's within the rules for caddies to help. I don't think there would be any way to change the rule other than to say caddies and partners cannot help with anything. I don't think you could go down the list of things that go into deciding how to play a shot and say caddies and partners can help with some but not others, e.g., a caddy can help you line up a chip but not a putt.
[/quote]

Bermuda, while I'm totally fine with being confused with Opus, there is reasonable doubt that he'd be pleased to be confused with me.

Best regards,

Sawgrass (giving credit where credit is due -- see post #19)

[OpusX20]

In one of Jack Nicklaus' "Lesson Tees" that was in Golf Digest years ago, he encouraged players to read their own putts and rely on their own decisions. The drawing showed Nicklaus crouched behind a putt and Angelo sitting on the MacGregor bag in the background.

 

I agree that players should read and align their own putts, but, as Sawgrass pointed out, it's within the rules for caddies to help. I don't think there would be any way to change the rule other than to say caddies and partners cannot help with anything. I don't think you could go down the list of things that go into deciding how to play a shot and say caddies and partners can help with some but not others, e.g., a caddy can help you line up a chip but not a putt.

 

Bermuda, while I'm totally fine with being confused with Opus, there is reasonable doubt that he'd be pleased to be confused with me.

 

Best regards,

 

Sawgrass (giving credit where credit is due -- see post #19)

 

I'm honored to be confused with you Sawgrass.

[farmer]

Andy Martinez helped Johnny Miller and would squat down on the greens to screen any movement from JM's peripheral vision. I can't play with someone lining me up, full shot or putt. For me, the worst thing is to have someone say "you're too far left" or whatever. It seems to me that even the ladies who do this all the time have some issues with rhythm.