Morality For Sale - $35

[teaz01]

Hi,

I'm looking for a clarification as I am under the impression that the new BST rules were enacted in order to create a "safe haven" and "restore honor and integrity".

In the new requirements I must either double the post total I've amassed in the last five years or pay fees to use the BST. How does either of these rules effect my morals? How will these requirements protect me from being scammed?

As a golfer who uses GolfWrx as a resource to learn and realize facets of the game my short experience does not allow, I do not post fluff. I have reviewed product, supported other members questions, and been timely and forthright in all of my BST dealings.

If one is looking for buyer protection, know the seller. There as many resources to realize a persons selling and buying history. If you don't like what you find, especially using a personal payment, don't do the deal! In the event a deal goes south there are institutions in our society that will assist in finding justice.

Respectfully, Troy.

 

P.S. I find it ironic that my lack of posts inhibits me from attaching this post to the thread in the BST where the membership may actually get to read it.

[finalist]

My only guess is participation is a two way street that counts. Share your thoughts more?

[BenJ]

When you PayPal the $35 for the Charter Membership or the $5 for the individual listing, GolfWRX now has your contact information. If you screw someone, they know where to start hunting you down.

How does 75 posts by someone stop you from being scammed? It doesn't. It's an arbitrary number.

[Gawfman123]

It is amazing to me, that people are so set off about this.

Tell me, exactly, what your problem with this is? Is it that they ask you to spend some time on their site, before you start selling your items to people?

Is that really so wrong?

Myself, I am grateful to have a place to trade, buy and sell hard to find items without having to deal with EBAY, shill bidding and high fees.

This is a huge problem for alot of people right now, and I am getting tired of it. It doesn't seem fair to you, even though it helps out and is fair to the majority of people on this site, so I am going to complain about it.

[Metalhead]

being a member of other sites outside the golf world(shock and awe!), having to have a certain post count before being allowed to use the bst is more the norm than the exception....

personally my biggest gripe about the bst is the no bump and the 1 thread per 30 days......

[HeadonaStick]

The membership feels better having our BST populated by fellow members of the community, the BST is the most expensive part of the site to maintain and it should be used by those who contribute to the rest of the site.

It is simple really, participate and become part of the community or help pay the bills. It isn't some moral or ethical issue.

[Redbird]

[quote name='BenJ' date='18 May 2010 - 09:53 AM' timestamp='1274194405' post='2450009']
When you PayPal the $35 for the Charter Membership or the $5 for the individual listing, GolfWRX now has your contact information. If you screw someone, they know where to start hunting you down.

How does 75 posts by someone stop you from being scammed? It doesn't. It's an arbitrary number.
[/quote]


They have it because it goes through PP, most transactions are done via PP. As long as the buyer doesn't gift the money, he/she has the same "Info" that paying the Charter or individual listing provides. It's not really any added protection.

[Redbird]

[quote name='Metalhead' date='18 May 2010 - 10:10 AM' timestamp='1274195431' post='2450052']
being a member of other sites outside the golf world(shock and awe!), having to have a certain post count before being allowed to use the bst is more the norm than the exception....

personally my biggest gripe about the bst is the no bump and the 1 thread per 30 days......
[/quote]


I am fine with the post count portion of the new rules. I am not fine with the ability to pay your way around the rule.

[MarekR]

[quote]In the new requirements I must either double the post total I've amassed in the last five years [/quote]
ಠ_ಠ
You could have thousands by now in that time.

[Redbird]

[quote name='MarekR' date='18 May 2010 - 10:57 AM' timestamp='1274198267' post='2450179']
[quote]In the new requirements I must either double the post total I've amassed in the last five years [/quote]
ಠ_ಠ
You could have thousands by now in that time.


[quote]I am fine with the post count portion of the new rules. I am not fine with the ability to pay your way around the rule.
[/quote]
Look at it this way, it's either make a little money on the side or more ads.
[/quote]

So it is about making a little money??? Good to know. I thought these rules were created by the "membership", clearly from what you just said that would not seem to be the case.

[MarekR]

[quote name='Redbird' date='18 May 2010 - 12:04 PM' timestamp='1274198667' post='2450196']
[quote name='MarekR' date='18 May 2010 - 10:57 AM' timestamp='1274198267' post='2450179']
[quote]In the new requirements I must either double the post total I've amassed in the last five years [/quote]
ಠ_ಠ
You could have thousands by now in that time.


[quote]I am fine with the post count portion of the new rules. I am not fine with the ability to pay your way around the rule.
[/quote]
Look at it this way, it's either make a little money on the side or more ads.
[/quote]

So it is about making a little money??? Good to know. I thought these rules were created by the "membership", clearly from what you just said that would not seem to be the case.
[/quote]

Uh, I'm not part of management, I just fix things(and I need the Rules Official group because it is the root admin group), but I'm just saying in a philosophical way.

[Gxgolfer]

We gave allowance for ClubWRX members as it makes sense because as stated earlier, it does satisfy some info of who is using the BST. Same with the ad insertion fee.

We have arrived at these changes in the most equitable and most logical means possible. It's still free to use and post as long as you play by the rules. No different than when members sign up for the forums and agree to codes of conduct. ClubWRX is an enhancement to the base membership.

BST is free to use as long as you fullfill the requirements. There is a basic way to reach a level to place ads and a premium level.

Either way the dollars generated from this is insignificant to the time and abuse the moderating crew endures.

[Hateto3Putt]

[quote name='teaz01' date='18 May 2010 - 10:42 AM' timestamp='1274193751' post='2449977']
Hi,
I'm looking for a clarification as I am under the impression that the new BST rules were enacted in order to create a "safe haven" and "restore honor and integrity".
[/quote]


The new rules are designed to help protect the masses from scammers who join the site, post nothing but a scam ad and then take the money and run.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Your personal morality is not being questioned at all.

There was a thread going for weeks on end looking for MEMBER INPUT on how this would best be accomplished.

Did you post your thoughts in that thread prior to the rule getting changed?

What was your best idea?

Wow. The stuff people get upset about continues to amaze me. You just wrote a 3 paragraph essay on how you've been slighted by a rule change, yet you can't get to 75 posts in [s]3 years.[/s] (edit) FIVE YEARS.

Life's too short. Let it go.

[br61]

Come on guys, please give those mods a break. All they did was to set up what many members were asking for. They have a thankless job and 99% of the membership do not know what it's like to police any sites, how hard it's to please members(impossible!) and takes bulk of abuses that they don't deserve.

I know what it's like as I used to be a moderator and an administrator elsewhere. It's both a rewarding and really a sh!tty job at the same time.

So cut them some slack, please??? If you don't like it, well I'm sorry but those are the rules for membership's benefit and follow them.

[Redbird]

[quote name='Hateto3Putt' date='18 May 2010 - 01:21 PM' timestamp='1274206892' post='2450562']
[quote name='teaz01' date='18 May 2010 - 10:42 AM' timestamp='1274193751' post='2449977']
Hi,
I'm looking for a clarification as I am under the impression that the new BST rules were enacted in order to create a "safe haven" and "restore honor and integrity".
[/quote]


[b]The new rules are designed to help protect the masses from scammers who join the site, post nothing but a scam ad and then take the money and run.

Nothing more, nothing less.[/b]


[/quote]


I join this site last month, have 3 posts, I'd like to sell a driver, I pay the $5, list the item and you buy it. I run off with your money, instead of netting $175 I net $170. Where's your protection? The 75 post rule didn't save you, you payed me with PP so you have the same info the admin has. What protection?

[MarekR]

[quote name='Redbird' date='18 May 2010 - 02:29 PM' timestamp='1274207397' post='2450585']
[quote name='Hateto3Putt' date='18 May 2010 - 01:21 PM' timestamp='1274206892' post='2450562']
[quote name='teaz01' date='18 May 2010 - 10:42 AM' timestamp='1274193751' post='2449977']
Hi,
I'm looking for a clarification as I am under the impression that the new BST rules were enacted in order to create a "safe haven" and "restore honor and integrity".
[/quote]


[b]The new rules are designed to help protect the masses from scammers who join the site, post nothing but a scam ad and then take the money and run.

Nothing more, nothing less.[/b]


[/quote]


I join this site last month, have 3 posts, I'd like to sell a driver, I pay the $5, list the item and you buy it. I run off with your money, instead of netting $175 I net $170. Where's your protection? The 75 post rule didn't save you, you payed me with PP so you have the same info the admin has. What protection?
[/quote]

Hey, the forum requires login to access admin controls but I can hack into it instead(being quite knowledgable about its inner workings), does that mean we shut down golfwrx because the protections are useless and someone will just hack it?

[Redbird]

[quote name='MarekR' date='18 May 2010 - 01:36 PM' timestamp='1274207814' post='2450602']
[quote name='Redbird' date='18 May 2010 - 02:29 PM' timestamp='1274207397' post='2450585']
[quote name='Hateto3Putt' date='18 May 2010 - 01:21 PM' timestamp='1274206892' post='2450562']
[quote name='teaz01' date='18 May 2010 - 10:42 AM' timestamp='1274193751' post='2449977']
Hi,
I'm looking for a clarification as I am under the impression that the new BST rules were enacted in order to create a "safe haven" and "restore honor and integrity".
[/quote]


[b]The new rules are designed to help protect the masses from scammers who join the site, post nothing but a scam ad and then take the money and run.

Nothing more, nothing less.[/b]


[/quote]


I join this site last month, have 3 posts, I'd like to sell a driver, I pay the $5, list the item and you buy it. I run off with your money, instead of netting $175 I net $170. Where's your protection? The 75 post rule didn't save you, you payed me with PP so you have the same info the admin has. What protection?
[/quote]

Hey, the forum requires login to access admin controls but I can hack into it instead(being quite knowledgable about its inner workings), does that mean we shut down golfwrx because the protections are useless and someone will just hack it?
[/quote]


Apples and dump trucks.

[muxi87]

[quote name='HeadonaStick' date='18 May 2010 - 11:12 AM' timestamp='1274195568' post='2450060']
The membership feels better having our BST populated by fellow members of the community, the BST is the most expensive part of the site to maintain and it should be used by those who contribute to the rest of the site.

It is simple really, participate and become part of the community or help pay the bills. It isn't some moral or ethical issue.
[/quote]

Post of the year.

I don't understand why this concept is so hard to grasp. The BST here is for the "users" of Golfwrx. That's why you must be signed in to contact people or post. A "user" in my opinion is someone who interacts in the forum. I personally don't like the idea that someone with 0 posts can get the benefit of the awesome BST here. Limiting their right to sell is great. If they get ill and leave, what are we missing? Definitely not their contributions to the site...they don't contribute anyway.

This place is a golf forum first and foremost. The BST is just one little area of the site.

If people don't like it, go start www.golfsales.com and have a strictly Buy/Sell marketplace. My guess is that it wouldn't last too long.

[Gxgolfer]

If a crack head is going to steal a radio out of a car, is he going to jimmy a lock or go for the one with the doors unlocked. Of course he can just break the windows too but that would be more obvious.

[Hateto3Putt]

I join this site last month, have 3 posts, I'd like to sell a driver, I pay the $5, list the item and you buy it. I run off with your money, instead of netting $175 I net $170. Where's your protection? The 75 post rule didn't save you, you payed me with PP so you have the same info the admin has. What protection?

 

Nobody said it was a perfect system. But if you've been around long enough to meet the minimums, then hopefully your not a scammer. There is no way to guarantee anything, ever. But you can weed out the fly by nighters with a reasonable post minimum or a small fee.

 

Dontcha agree? What scammer is going to pay to post?

 

However, In the scenario you lay out above, You're right, I would have your Paypal info. A quick call to my Uncle "Twisted Nose Tony" in Chicago would put him on the roadtrip to make you an offer you couldn't refuse. :hi:

 

j/k (but seriously, Tony's just a call away)

 

artists rendition....

 

[Redbird]

I join this site last month, have 3 posts, I'd like to sell a driver, I pay the $5, list the item and you buy it. I run off with your money, instead of netting $175 I net $170. Where's your protection? The 75 post rule didn't save you, you payed me with PP so you have the same info the admin has. What protection?

 

Nobody said it was a perfect system. But if you've been around long enough to meet the minimums, then hopefully your not a scammer. There is no way to guarantee anything, ever. But you can weed out the fly by nighters with a reasonable post minimum or a small fee.

 

Dontcha agree? What scammer is going to pay to post?

 

However, In the scenario you lay out above, You're right, I would have your Paypal info. A quick call to my Uncle "Twisted Nose Tony" in Chicago would put him on the roadtrip to make you an offer you couldn't refuse. :hi:

 

j/k (but seriously, Tony's just a call away)

 

artists rendition....

 

 

 

You don't weed out the fly by nighters by allowing someone with 0 posts to pay $5 to rip someone off. And yes, I'd take my chances of paying the $5 on a golf site and running off with $170 than having to deal with ebay. My point is and has been eliminate the pay for option. It doesn't protect a single person anymore than PP does already. Stick with a simple post count like Sand trap and you protect more people. Seriously, what member came up with the idea to allow a new user to dish out $5 to circumvent the post requirement and then convince themselves we're all safer? I'm being honest cause I'd like to hear from him.

[Hateto3Putt]

[quote name='Redbird' date='18 May 2010 - 02:58 PM' timestamp='1274209111' post='2450662']

You don't weed out the fly by nighters by allowing someone with 0 posts to pay $5 to rip someone off. [b]And yes, I'd take my chances of paying the $5 on a golf site and running off with $170 than having to deal with ebay. [/b]
[/quote]

You might, but I'll betcha most thieves wouldn't. They are looking for much easier targets.

If a scammer is going to try to scam, do you think he's more likely to post on a bulletin board where it's free, or one where it costs $5?

Think about it carefully, then let me know if you'd really pay to play.

I would wager that most scammers are pimpled teen age punks who don't have $5 for that type of science project.

[Redbird]

$5 is a drop in the pot compared to the $170 I just took from you. And yes I believe most scammers would. Dude you can't even get a pack of smokes in Chicago for $5, it ain't much. Now if they knew they had to spend some time to accumulate 75 posts here, that alone would make them move on if they're looking for a quick $$$$

[Hateto3Putt]

[quote name='Redbird' date='18 May 2010 - 03:10 PM' timestamp='1274209826' post='2450699']
[b]$5 is a drop in the pot compared to the $170 I just took from you.[/b] And yes I believe most scammers would. Dude you can't even get a pack of smokes in Chicago for $5, it ain't much. Now if they knew they had to spend some time to accumulate 75 posts here, that alone would make them move on if they're looking for a quick $
[/quote]

You are assuming that every place you pay your $5 will net you a sale.... Really? Is it that easy?

Let me rephrase the question:

Assuming you're a scammer...

Would you post your scam on 100 sites that charge you $5 each?

Or would you post your scam on 100 [b]free to post[/b] sites?

Explain why or why not.

[Gawfman123]

Wow....

[Redbird]

[quote name='Hateto3Putt' date='18 May 2010 - 02:18 PM' timestamp='1274210334' post='2450720']
[quote name='Redbird' date='18 May 2010 - 03:10 PM' timestamp='1274209826' post='2450699']
[b]$5 is a drop in the pot compared to the $170 I just took from you.[/b] And yes I believe most scammers would. Dude you can't even get a pack of smokes in Chicago for $5, it ain't much. Now if they knew they had to spend some time to accumulate 75 posts here, that alone would make them move on if they're looking for a quick $
[/quote]

You are assuming that every place you pay your $5 will net you a sale.... Really? Is it that easy?

Let me rephrase the question:

Assuming you're a scammer...

Would you post your scam on 100 sites that charge you $5 each?

Or would you post your scam on 100 [b]free to post[/b] sites?

Explain why or why not.
[/quote]


When you list me 100 sites that charge $5 to post in their BST, then I'll give you an answer. Until then we're talking about this site. I don't mind talking in hypotheticals, but taking them to the extreme isn't worth justifying them with an answer.

[Hateto3Putt]

[quote name='Redbird' date='18 May 2010 - 03:42 PM' timestamp='1274211743' post='2450794']


When you list me 100 sites that charge $5 to post in their BST, then I'll give you an answer.
[/quote]

'nuff said.

[Gxgolfer]

Because this forum is free to join, we disallow at least 20 accounts from China, Russia, India, etc. Do you think if we charged to join would those attempts go down? We wouldn't stop spammers but my hours checking this site would go down significantly. You came up with an alternate suggestion of time. Well the most successful scammers are those who wait and lurk. Why do people keep their lights on or put security placards up? Purely for deterence.


Obviously your issue is the monetary deterence policy which I find interesting as golf is all about paying to play. I would say if you take in all cost factors with this rule, GolfWRX would actually be losing money in the short term because of potential traffic lost.

[20something]

Why is this even an issue?

Its not a big moral dilemma. Its supposed to be an enjoyable interaction with other people who enjoy (or obsessed with) golf. We come here to educate ourselves or share what we know.

Either participate or pay. How many of these newbies lately join just to sell something? Seems like a lot lately. They join, sell and disappear. There's no contribution to the community, just to themselves.

But what it really comes down to is that its gxgolfer's site and he can do what he wants. We're just guests here. But he took the time to poll the members about this. The original number was 100 posts. He brought it down from there.

Its really not a big deal. Lets go play golf or at least talk about it.....

[Redbird]

[quote name='Gxgolfer' date='18 May 2010 - 02:49 PM' timestamp='1274212150' post='2450817']
Because this forum is free to join, we disallow at least 20 accounts from China, Russia, India, etc. Do you think if we charged to join would those attempts go down? We wouldn't stop spammers but my hours checking this site would go down significantly. You came up with an alternate suggestion of time. Well the most successful scammers are those who wait and lurk. Why do people keep their lights on or put security placards up? Purely for deterence.


Obviously your issue is the monetary deterence policy which I find interesting as golf is all about paying to play. I would say if you take in all cost factors with this rule, GolfWRX would actually be losing money in the short term because of potential traffic lost.
[/quote]


Big scammers yes, they will wait it out. Quick petty scammers won't stick around. We live in a society now a days that perpetuates everything be done quicker, faster, with as little effort as possible.

My issue is with the monetary "deterence" policy because it doesn't deter anything, clearly that's been demonstrated through examples.

You do have to pay to play, which is fine, but this monetary "deterence" is being sold as "deterence", not a revenue stream. If it's a revenue stream, then I'd say come out and say it. A $5 pay to play deterence? A wolf in sheeps clothes. Making a comment like "pay to play" but then state it's not about money is contradictory at best. If it's pay to play, then my original statement in another thread stands and that is this site is losing what attracted so many from the other site and it's dictatorship/money talks mentality.

If this rule does in fact result in money lost then I can't help to wonder about the business smarts of the owners and why they would allow their members (still wanna hear from the guys who thought up this idea), to create a rule that cost the site revenue. Not a very wise business decision. Cause in the end I think you'd be hard pressed to hear from anyone who says they're gonna walk if the site doesn't start charging newbs to sell things. I see post count deterrence on numerous boards to stop scammers and spammers, that I agree with wholeheartedly.