Should Phil be disqualified?

[dbleag]

possible rules infraction on #15 yesterday

Phil Mickleson tee off yesterday on #15 at Muirfield Village GC and pushed his ball to the left side toward an area marked as a lateral hazard. The TV cameras tried to follow the ball, but could not show the final location of his shot. The next thing you know, he's hitting a provisional from the tee, obviously in case the ball was lost of out of bounds. Because the area in question was marked as a lateral hazard, the lost ball option was not available.

Do you think that they have a local rule for the event allowing Phil to play a provisional ball to save time? If not, Phil's provisional became his "ball in play" the moment he struck it. By proceeding with his first ball, he play a "wrong ball" and should either be penalized or disqualified.

Phil has played MVGC over 50 times and knows how the hole is marked. There was a rules official there, so he should have mentioned something as well. Maybe there's a local rule or maybe Phil doesn't know the rules.

[Dizz]

You should definitely call in, the PGA Tour doesn't have enough rules officials on hand so I'm sure they appreciate all the ones watching at home.

[ZBigStick]

Because his first ball from the tee may not have entered the hazard and very well could have been lost in the tall grass a provisional was permitted. The hazard is way left of the hole, and since his ball struck the trees and neither he nor his caddies saw the ball the proper play was to hit a provisional.

[Calamity Todd]

No.

[KevCarter]

[color="#4169E1"][b]27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball[/b][/color]

Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?

A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)



[color="#4169E1"][b]27-2a/2.5 Player Plays Provisional Ball in Belief Original Ball Might Be Lost Outside Water Hazard Then Discovers There Is No Possibility of Its Being Lost Outside Water Hazard[/b][/color]

Q. A player's tee shot is struck towards an area of trees, bushes and tall grass. Believing his ball might be lost outside a water hazard, the player announces his intention to play a provisional ball and plays a ball from the tee. When he arrives at the area, he finds that the area in question is wetlands that has been defined as a lateral water hazard and that it is known or virtually certain that his ball is in it. What is the ruling?

A. As the player played the second ball from the tee in the belief that his original ball might be lost outside a water hazard, that ball was a provisional ball. The subsequent discovery that the area in question is in fact a lateral water hazard is irrelevant. Therefore, the player must abandon the provisional ball and proceed under Rule 26-1 — see Rule 27-2c.

[bj3113]

previous post is correct...he declared a provisional for a lost ball. i'm fairly certain phil knows the rules of golf.

[Rockfish]

I believe the circumstances under which you hit a provisional ball is when you believe your ball "[b]MAY[/b] be lost or out of bounds", correct ?

[sheldonjhacker]

No...because there are multiple rules officials basically holding Phil's hand throughout the entire hole.

[J13]

If you hit a shot that goes out of site or hits tree's and is not seen to come out, you can hit a provisional as your first ball may be lost. No penalty.

[Will_The_Thrill]

Rule 27-2 b

The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance.

The provisional ball only becomes the ball in play after he plays it from where the original ball is thought to be. So, he could have topped his provisional ball 100 yards, then hit it fat, then even out of bounds after that, but as long as he doesn't play the provisional ball from a point closer to the hole from where his original ball is thought to be he can play his original ball without penalty.

BTW, stroke and distance is an option for lateral hazards. Although it is the most penal, playing a provisional is allowed when the ball comes to rest in a lateral hazard.

[Rockfish]

Rule 27-2 b

 

The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance.

 

The provisional ball only becomes the ball in play after he plays it from where the original ball is thought to be. So, he could have topped his provisional ball 100 yards, then hit it fat, then even out of bounds after that, but as long as he doesn't play the provisional ball from a point closer to the hole from where his original ball is thought to be he can play his original ball without penalty.

 

BTW, stroke and distance is an option for lateral hazards. Although it is the most penal, playing a provisional is allowed when the ball comes to rest in a lateral hazard.

 

And you were doing so well until you went THERE.

 

 

 

[Will_The_Thrill]

You can play a provisional when your ball comes to rest in a lateral hazard, because one of the options for a lateral hazard is taking a one stroke penalty plus distance and playing from where your last stroke was played from - this is what you are doing when you play a provisional. It's usually not the smartest play, but it is allowed under the rules of golf.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='HDW' date='07 June 2010 - 10:52 AM' timestamp='1275925950' post='2492120']
You can play a provisional when your ball comes to rest in a lateral hazard, because one of the options for a lateral hazard is taking a one stroke penalty plus distance and playing from where your last stroke was played from - this is what you are doing when you play a provisional. It's usually not the smartest play, but it is allowed under the rules of golf.
[/quote]

That is not playing a provisional ball, that is putting another ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance. As soon as you do that, you lose the option of playing the original ball if found.

A Provisional ball may be played only if the original may be lost or out of bounds.

Big difference.

Kevin

[dukedsp]

I do not believe you are able to play a provisional ball for a ball in any type of a hazard:

 

27-2. Provisional Ball

 

a. Procedure

 

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.

 

 

AND

 

 

c. When Provisional Ball to Be Abandoned

 

If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball. If he makes any further strokes at the provisional ball, he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions of Rule 15-3 apply.

 

 

 

 

Also see this decision:

 

27-2/1 Provisional Ball Serving as Ball in Play If Original Ball Unplayable or in Water Hazard

 

Q. May a player announce that a second ball he is going to play is both (a) a provisional ball in case the original ball is lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds and (b) the ball in play in case the original ball is unplayable or in a water hazard?

 

A. No.

 

 

 

 

[sirhooksalot]

[quote name='sheldonjhacker' date='07 June 2010 - 11:02 AM' timestamp='1275922970' post='2491943']
No...because there are multiple rules officials basically holding Phil's hand throughout the entire hole.


[/quote]


Well put...he knew/was made aware of his options. No dq.

[TMfan54]

gotta love the at home rules officials.

[Will_The_Thrill]

Time to take those meds... Nice correction.

[kwak28]

Wow! I can't believe all of the excitment over this!! You can always play a provisional as long as he announced it and it was for a lost ball.... this just happened to me in the US open qualifier... my partner hit a ball that we thought might go over the hazard so he played another for a ball OB...

[KevCarter]

[quote name='kwak28' date='07 June 2010 - 12:22 PM' timestamp='1275931360' post='2492405']
Wow! I can't believe all of the excitment over this!! You can always play a provisional as long as he announced it and it was for a lost ball.... this just happened to me in the US open qualifier... my partner hit a ball that we thought might go over the hazard so he played another for a ball OB...
[/quote]

Not a lot of excitement really, just a couple of people who need a little help understanding the rule...

Kevin

[Newby]

[quote name='dukedsp' date='07 June 2010 - 05:26 PM' timestamp='1275928014' post='2492233']
I do not believe you are able to play a provisional ball for a ball in [b]any type of a hazard:[/b]
[/quote]

I don't see any mention of a bunker in the rule

[Rockfish]

You can play a provisional when your ball comes to rest in a lateral hazard, because one of the options for a lateral hazard is taking a one stroke penalty plus distance and playing from where your last stroke was played from - this is what you are doing when you play a provisional. It's usually not the smartest play, but it is allowed under the rules of golf.

 

 

Time to take those meds... Nice correction.

 

 

Not sure what correction you're talking about but you ARE incorrect. You can NOT hit a provisional ball in you KNOW your ball went into a water hazard.

 

 

[Rockfish]

I do not believe you are able to play a provisional ball for a ball in any type of a hazard:

 

I don't see any mention of a bunker in the rule ;)

 

nor in the point of the thread.

[ZBigStick]

[quote name='kevcarter ' date='07 June 2010 - 10:59 AM' timestamp='1275922782' post='2491935']
[color="#4169E1"][b]27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball[/b][/color]

Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?

A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)



[color="#4169E1"][b]27-2a/2.5 Player Plays Provisional Ball in Belief Original Ball Might Be Lost Outside Water Hazard Then Discovers There Is No Possibility of Its Being Lost Outside Water Hazard[/b][/color]

Q. A player's tee shot is struck towards an area of trees, bushes and tall grass. Believing his ball might be lost outside a water hazard, the player announces his intention to play a provisional ball and plays a ball from the tee. When he arrives at the area, he finds that the area in question is wetlands that has been defined as a lateral water hazard and that it is known or virtually certain that his ball is in it. What is the ruling?

A. As the player played the second ball from the tee in the belief that his original ball might be lost outside a water hazard, that ball was a provisional ball. The subsequent discovery that the area in question is in fact a lateral water hazard is irrelevant. Therefore, the player must abandon the provisional ball and proceed under Rule 26-1 — see Rule 27-2c.
[/quote]

This is it, this is the rule. No need for other "guesses".
If you have another interpretation; stop, smack yourself in the face and RE-READ this post.

[Rockfish]

You can play a provisional when your ball comes to rest in a lateral hazard, because one of the options for a lateral hazard is taking a one stroke penalty plus distance and playing from where your last stroke was played from - this is what you are doing when you play a provisional. It's usually not the smartest play, but it is allowed under the rules of golf.

 

That is not playing a provisional ball, that is putting another ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance. As soon as you do that, you lose the option of playing the original ball if found.

 

A Provisional ball may be played only if the original may be lost or out of bounds.

 

Big difference.

 

Kevin

 

 

 

 

[Rockfish]

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball

 

Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?

 

A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)

 

 

 

27-2a/2.5 Player Plays Provisional Ball in Belief Original Ball Might Be Lost Outside Water Hazard Then Discovers There Is No Possibility of Its Being Lost Outside Water Hazard

 

Q. A player's tee shot is struck towards an area of trees, bushes and tall grass. Believing his ball might be lost outside a water hazard, the player announces his intention to play a provisional ball and plays a ball from the tee. When he arrives at the area, he finds that the area in question is wetlands that has been defined as a lateral water hazard and that it is known or virtually certain that his ball is in it. What is the ruling?

 

A. As the player played the second ball from the tee in the belief that his original ball might be lost outside a water hazard, that ball was a provisional ball. The subsequent discovery that the area in question is in fact a lateral water hazard is irrelevant. Therefore, the player must abandon the provisional ball and proceed under Rule 26-1 — see Rule 27-2c.

 

This is it, this is the rule. No need for other "guesses".

If you have another interpretation; stop, smack yourself in the face and RE-READ this post. :black eye:

 

 

 

 

Pssssssst - to be TOTALLY accurate those are DECISIONS on the rule, NOT the rule itself.

[KevCarter]

 

Rock,

 

I took my meds, came back, and all I have is the same response. :cheesy: :drinks:

 

Kevin

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='dbleag' date='07 June 2010 - 07:38 AM' timestamp='1275921482' post='2491871']
... or maybe Phil doesn't know the rules.
[/quote]

Perhaps you should know the rules before you accuse someone of cheating.

[highergr0und]

I kind of think the OP was making a pretty strong reference to the fact that he believed Phil knew his shot was in a hazard due to his knowledge of the course so he shouldn't have hit the provisional. It seemed like he understands the rule but maybe was just reaching a bit.

I'm not really sure how rules and decisions can apply to a golfer's knowledge of the course. I can't imagine a rule being enforced differently on someone who has played a course 50 times vs someone who's playing their first tourney there. I imagine the fact that he hit it far to the left and couldn't see it land provided enough doubt as to its location to allow the play he made, just like any other golfer.

[elrey23]

[attachment=606825:aussie-haterade.gif]

Drink of choice?

He had no idea where his ball would actually end up. How many times he's played the course is irrelevant. He didn't see the ball down and he knows there is trouble over there. He hit a provisional, what's the big deal?

[Newby]

[quote name='highergr0und' date='08 June 2010 - 04:38 AM' timestamp='1275968339' post='2494075']
I imagine the fact that he hit it far to the left and couldn't see it land provided enough doubt as to its location to allow the play he made, just like any other golfer.
[/quote]

That's how the rules work. They apply to every golfer. They say nothing about how often he plays the course.