Gimme Putts

[roll - gybe]

I am aware of the rule.

But philosophically, it doesn't matter unless you are playing against someone.

Playing alone might be fun sometimes, but it's like the tree falling in the forest, except no one can come around later and see a downed tree. It is as if nothing happened. No one else cares then, now, or ever.

And I don't buy the logic that if you make them in practice rounds you will make them in competition. It's a very different set of circumstances.

[Radagast]

[quote name='roll - gybe' date='15 June 2010 - 01:06 PM' timestamp='1276632384' post='2511296']
I am aware of the rule.

But philosophically, it doesn't matter unless you are playing against someone.

Playing alone might be fun sometimes, but it's like the tree falling in the forest, except no one can come around later and see a downed tree. It is as if nothing happened. No one else cares then, now, or ever.

And I don't buy the logic that if you make them in practice rounds you will make them in competition. It's a very different set of circumstances.
[/quote]

[color="#1C2837"]So your philosophy is that unless an action is observed by another it has no value? By that logic, because no one saw me on my run this morning, I may as well have stayed in bed. Can you caring not be enough reason? Why does someone else need to care?

[/color][color="#1C2837"]On a more practical level, do you keep a handicap? If so, are you automatic from two feet (will hit 100 out of a 100 regardless of conditions and contours of the green). You may be, I know 1 or 2 out of those 100 I will lip out, so I hole these out. [/color]

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='roll - gybe' date='15 June 2010 - 04:06 PM' timestamp='1276632384' post='2511296']

But philosophically, it doesn't matter unless you are playing against someone.

. . . And I don't buy the logic that if you make them in practice rounds you will make them in competition. It's a very different set of circumstances.
[/quote]

I have just the opposite philosophy. I understand that I'm not going to beat the best players. It doesn't matter to me very much how I do in comparison to anyone else -- even if I'm in a tournament.

What I truly care about is how I measure up to my own expectations. So, at least to me, it matters if I sink a two footer -- and it doesn't matter if I'm with a group or playing by myself.

For me, caring all the time makes it easier when I am in a competition. It's simply the same pressure I put on myself every time I play. And I find that while some people blow up under unusual tournament pressure, I tend to play a touch better than I usually do.


While I understand how you explain that you relate to golf, to holing out, I'm different -- and it isn't because of any "elete" feelings or attitudes I have about myself. It's just because I always care about my score, and take pride in its legitimacy.

It's a bit sad for me to note that some people might think I'm "putting on airs" by holing out. I'm just trying to play the game as I relate to it.

[roll - gybe]

"So your philosophy is that unless an action is observed by another it has no value? "


Never said that. You took my statement to an unnatural extreme. If that's where this is going, I'm not biting.

I do keep a handicap to answer that question. And given the context of this forum, I do find it be a breach of a social etiquette to be holing out all those 1.5 footers in a round that doesn't matter when the rest of the group is ready to move on.

The question was asked, and I think it was a question of opinion, not one of fact.

Maybe you and Rush can get together and play. Sounds like you both like to play with yourself. You can set up a game and make sure you sink the short ones.

[roll - gybe]

Sawgrass - seriously, holing out alone is the same pressure as when it really counts? I've played sports at a high level, and that's just not the way it works. Your personal fanatasy has nothing to due with experience and performance in a real situation.

Put your mortgage payment on the line. Does that feel the same as your two footer alone when you pretended to be putting for the win at the US Open?

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='roll - gybe' date='15 June 2010 - 04:47 PM' timestamp='1276634874' post='2511403']
Sawgrass - seriously, holing out alone is the same pressure as when it really counts? I've played sports at a high level, and that's just not the way it works. Your personal fanatasy has nothing to due with experience and performance in a real situation.

Put your mortgage payment on the line. Does that feel the same as your two footer alone when you pretended to be putting for the win at the US Open?
[/quote]


Sure holing out alone is the same pressure as when it really counts, because it really counts when I'm alone.

I wish you wouldn't be so judgmental regarding how someone else plays. I'm not having a "personal fantasy". I'm playing golf. For real. Just because it isn't in the US Open doesn't make it less than "real". You might want to open yourself up to that.

And I'm not saying that putting a two footer for my life wouldn't create more pressure. I'm saying that the pressure I always experience when trying to do my best is real, and it matters. And further, it matters much more than comparing my score to yours or anyone else's matters to me.

It just seems terribly odd to me that my preferences for holing out is so offensive to you. Your perspective on the game and what's important in it is not the only one available. Playing for your mortgage payment isn't the only way to experience the "joy of victory, the agony of defeat" as they used to say on ABC. All it takes is caring.

If this is just about your not wishing to wait for someone while they putt out, consider playing 17 holes and then leaving. You'll more than get your time back, and you can put down a par for yourself for the 18th. It wasn't the US Open anyway.

[Radagast]

[quote name='roll - gybe' date='15 June 2010 - 01:46 PM' timestamp='1276634805' post='2511399']
"So your philosophy is that unless an action is observed by another it has no value? "


Never said that. You took my statement to an unnatural extreme. If that's where this is going, I'm not biting.

I do keep a handicap to answer that question. And given the context of this forum, I do find it be a breach of a social etiquette to be holing out all those 1.5 footers in a round that doesn't matter when the rest of the group is ready to move on.

The question was asked, and I think it was a question of opinion, not one of fact.

Maybe you and Rush can get together and play. Sounds like you both like to play with yourself. You can set up a game and make sure you sink the short ones.


[/quote]

I did not intend to come off as a combative Roll. Just looking to explore the idea of being externally vs internally motivated in golf. I meant no offense.

I understand that there are certain social rules of golf that each golfers applies to varying degrees. For instance, a few guys I regularly play with use a mulligan a side and take a free lift and place if their ball settles in an old divot. Nothing wrong with doing either, but I choose not to.

Whatever rules another person plays by does not matter to me as long as we are keeping pace. I've never found taking the time to walk over and clean up my short putts has prevented me from staying on the tail of the group in front of me.

[SpinMill75]

For me its about pace of play. I would rather give a guy a gimmee after a 50' lag putt to 6 inches so he doesn't have to walk all the way across the green....especially if the pace of play is way off.

Thats the only time I'm totally into gimmees.

[honketyhank]

Well, I like the following definition:

Gimme: A gentleman's agreement between two golfers who can't putt.

[honketyhank]

By the way and sorry for the threadjack ...

I also believe in "[b]shoulda[/b]s".

As in "Did you see that putt jump left just before the hole? WTF? I read it perfect. I hit it perfect. it [b]SHOULDA[/b] gone in. I'm gonna call it good."

Or, "Did you see that ball kick right? No way. It must have hit some dumb dipstick's divot he didn't repair. My ball [b]shoulda[/b] been right in the fairway, not in the hazard. I'm gonna take my [b]SHOULDA [/b]and drop right where it was headed."

Incidentally, a SPOSEDTA is very similar to a SHOULDA except that it is a bit more open to debate.

But definitely, a GIMME is stronger than a SHOULDA and a SHOULDA is stronger than a SPOSEDTA.

[doof_dizzler]

[quote name='honketyhank' date='15 June 2010 - 04:10 PM' timestamp='1276639807' post='2511609']
Well, I like the following definition:

Gimme: A gentleman's agreement between two golfers who can't putt.
[/quote]

Playing everything into the hole, all the time: An arrangement by a non-gentleman to play like he's got big money on the line even when he doesn't, no matter how long it takes.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='doof_dizzler' date='15 June 2010 - 06:47 PM' timestamp='1276642043' post='2511682']

Playing everything into the hole, all the time: An arrangement by a non-gentleman to play like he's got big money on the line even when he doesn't, no matter how long it takes.
[/quote]

You guys and money. Like that's the real reason to play golf.

Sorry, to me sport is not about the cash.

[boo radley]

[quote name='roll - gybe' date='15 June 2010 - 04:06 PM' timestamp='1276632384' post='2511296']
And I don't buy the logic that if you make them in practice rounds you will make them in competition. It's a very different set of circumstances.
[/quote]

Let's not be coy about the only reason why you, and I, and everyone else takes 'gimme' putts, shall we? It's not because they retard the speed of play in a meaningful way. It's not because experience making clutch two-foot putts for personal bests, or score in stroke play, doesn't help when you've got your mortgage on the line(!).

It's because you might miss them, and you HAVE missed them in the past, and it's irritating and humiliating to lip out a short little putt after moving the ball 400 yards in two swings. And so a sort of loose social agreement springs up, where -- "Nah, that's good."

[RJRJRJ]

[quote name='boo radley' date='15 June 2010 - 03:26 PM' timestamp='1276644361' post='2511766']
[quote name='roll - gybe' date='15 June 2010 - 04:06 PM' timestamp='1276632384' post='2511296']
And I don't buy the logic that if you make them in practice rounds you will make them in competition. It's a very different set of circumstances.
[/quote]

Let's not be coy about the only reason why you, and I, and everyone else takes 'gimme' putts, shall we? It's not because they retard the speed of play in a meaningful way. It's not because experience making clutch two-foot putts for personal bests, or score in stroke play, doesn't help when you've got your mortgage on the line(!).

It's because you might miss them, and you HAVE missed them in the past, and it's irritating and humiliating to lip out a short little putt after moving the ball 400 yards in two swings. And so a sort of loose social agreement springs up, where -- "Nah, that's good."
[/quote]

I dont take a gimme unless its less than a putter head length away from the hole. Believe me, im not afraid to miss the shot. 18" putts on the other hand, I may miss, and I will never take a gimme on a shot that there is a chance ill miss.

[masterli]

[quote name='roll - gybe' date='15 June 2010 - 03:06 PM' timestamp='1276632384' post='2511296']
I am aware of the rule.

But philosophically, it doesn't matter unless you are playing against someone.

Playing alone might be fun sometimes, but it's like the tree falling in the forest, except no one can come around later and see a downed tree. It is as if nothing happened. No one else cares then, now, or ever.

[/quote]

[quote name='roll - gybe' date='15 June 2010 - 03:46 PM' timestamp='1276634805' post='2511399']

I do keep a handicap.

I do find it be a breach of a social etiquette to be holing out all those 1.5 footers in a round that doesn't matter when the rest of the group is ready to move on.

[/quote]

How do you keep a legitimate handicap w/ gimmes? I play plenty of rounds alone. Because I maintain a handicap I have to make the putt. It's actually the complete opposite of what you're saying. It only matters to me that I make the putts because I'm the only one that cares about my index. I care to improve. It doesn't take a tournament or opponent to make it meaningful.

[roll - gybe]

[quote name='doof_dizzler' date='15 June 2010 - 06:47 PM' timestamp='1276642043' post='2511682']
[quote name='honketyhank' date='15 June 2010 - 04:10 PM' timestamp='1276639807' post='2511609']
Well, I like the following definition:

Gimme: A gentleman's agreement between two golfers who can't putt.
[/quote]

Playing everything into the hole, all the time: An arrangement by a non-gentleman to play like he's got big money on the line even when he doesn't, no matter how long it takes.
[/quote]

Haha! that's great.


[quote name='boo radley' date='15 June 2010 - 07:26 PM' timestamp='1276644361' post='2511766']
[quote name='roll - gybe' date='15 June 2010 - 04:06 PM' timestamp='1276632384' post='2511296']
And I don't buy the logic that if you make them in practice rounds you will make them in competition. It's a very different set of circumstances.
[/quote]

Let's not be coy about the only reason why you, and I, and everyone else takes 'gimme' putts, shall we? "
[/quote]

Wow, I'm glad you are capable of distilling my rationale to the "only reason" - I already told you what I thought. Why do you need to rephrase what I said, and do so inacurately?

I said in my first message my message would turn into a self-righteous boast-fest.

It's easy to hole out all your putts on the internet, and while playing alone and to bust 350 yard drives on GolfWRX.

I wonder if you guys really don't read the social clues around you. Applying a rigid set of rules to your interaction during a round of golf is not normal human behavior, and this kind of stuff is observed by your playing partners.


To all these comments about it not being "golf" - well whatever. When something is on the line, let's play "golf." Otherwise, it is really of zero consequence - unless you want to call the mental construction you are playing with something of consequence. And then somehow that makes it ok to not participate in the same game as your foursome. Well, that makes you weird to the third party...

[roll - gybe]

[quote name='masterli' date='15 June 2010 - 11:41 PM' timestamp='1276659682' post='2512355']
[quote name='roll - gybe' date='15 June 2010 - 03:06 PM' timestamp='1276632384' post='2511296']
I am aware of the rule.

But philosophically, it doesn't matter unless you are playing against someone.

Playing alone might be fun sometimes, but it's like the tree falling in the forest, except no one can come around later and see a downed tree. It is as if nothing happened. No one else cares then, now, or ever.

[/quote]

[quote name='roll - gybe' date='15 June 2010 - 03:46 PM' timestamp='1276634805' post='2511399']
I do keep a handicap.

I do find it be a breach of a social etiquette to be holing out all those 1.5 footers in a round that doesn't matter when the rest of the group is ready to move on.

[/quote]

How do you keep a legitimate handicap w/ gimmes? I play plenty of rounds alone. Because I maintain a handicap I have to make the putt. It's actually the complete opposite of what you're saying. It only matters to me that I make the putts because I'm the only one that cares about my index. I care to improve. It doesn't take a tournament or opponent to make it meaningful.
[/quote]


So you play rounds of golf alone to boost your index? Is that what you are saying?
Sandbagger!



Now I'm just joking around.

But saying "because you maintain a handicap, you have to make the putt" is an inaccurate statment of causality.

[Sawgrass]

Roll - Gybe, I'm impressed at your seemingly limitless energy in providing irrational support of doing the wrong thing.

And to do so in a forum about the rules is even more impressive.

[roll - gybe]

Don't agree with you.

Plus this is Rules "& Etiquette"

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='roll - gybe' date='16 June 2010 - 04:32 PM' timestamp='1276720346' post='2513734']
Plus this is Rules "& Etiquette"


[/quote]


Finally, something upon which we agree.

But I'm apparently the only one of the two of us who believes that playing by the rules is not in conflict with etiquette.

I note that the name of the forum is not Rules "or Etiquette".

[roll - gybe]

As predicted, the sanctimonious rise to the occasion.

[TheQue]

I don't take gimmies for one reason and one reason alone. I did not pay $60-$100 on a Saturday/Sunday to NOT hear that ball hit the bottom of the cup 18 times...

[Tylanthus]

I occasionally wonder what the statistics say about gimmie putts.

 

Assume I make X% of 9-18'' putts. What value of X do I need to avoid effects on my handicap? One day I'll do the math.

 

I don't really understand the morality and honor involved for casual golfers. I say, just have fun in a loosely defined game of golf. Maybe you'll catch the bug and start arguing on forums about 18 inch putts, etiquette surrounding marching back to the tee box to retee, and the countless other things that pass through this forum. When that day inevitably comes....

[mozgolf]

[quote name='Hateto3Putt' date='11 June 2010 - 09:52 PM' timestamp='1276285971' post='2503414']
[quote name='doof_dizzler' date='11 June 2010 - 03:17 PM' timestamp='1276283838' post='2503338']
I absolutely LOVE the threads about gimmes or cell phones or jeans. The flame wars are awesome, hope this one turns into one soon!
[/quote]

How about the guy wearing jeans, yakking on his cell while picking up putts!

My 3 favorite flamer threads (in no particular order)

[center]Walking vs. Riding
GPS vs. Laser
Playing it down vs Rolling the ball
[/center]

Back to the topic at hand. If your score on a hole has no impact on me, you can write down what you want. I love the guys who pick up putts, take a mulligan, or do-over, tee up every lie, don't count strokes for whatever reason, then tell you how good they shot in the clubhouse.

Those are the best guys to get into a money game!
[/quote]

Cavity Vs Blade
20 cappers playing blades etc!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[boo radley]

[quote name='Tylanthus' date='01 July 2010 - 02:49 AM' timestamp='1277966961' post='2548444']
I occasionally wonder what the statistics say about gimmie putts.

Assume I make X% of 9-18'' putts. What value of X do I need to avoid effects on my handicap? One day I'll do the math.

[/quote]

The problem is, a round of golf is a continuum. It's not as simple as just adjusting you score by .8 strokes, or whatever.

Here you are, with a good round going, maybe 'beating' the rest of your foursome. 5th hole, you have a 2' side-hill putt for bogey, on a very fast, hard-breaking green. You get careless, miss the putt, and have 4' coming back that you also miss. You've just eaten a triple. Without sauce.

Think that doesn't affect your mind-set on the next hole?

I really don't care if folks pick up 'gimme's, and I take them myself -- sometimes -- when given. But I can't imagine getting moist and itchy that some people DO choose to putt out. It must reflect an uneasy conscience.

[Tylanthus]

I wish 2-4' putts were gimmies for me! Good point though...that tee shot after a missed 18'' putt tends to go a bit further/wilder.

[2fromthecup]

I absolutely hate it when someone in my group kicks my ball back to me saying"it's good enough" after Ive clawed my way to a for sure par putt even two inches away! Daamn it, I deserve to hear the ball clank in the cup....... it gives a mental boost.
On the other hand when plaing match play and the ball is closer than 1 foot..... concede, it most likely will be going in the hole.

[deadsolid...shank]

I'll take the gimmie when its given by my opponents, that's their decision. There are also numerous times when I'm having one of those(many) bad putting days when they get "laryingitis"(sp) . And I don't blame them, I'd make myself putt it too.

A gimmie to myself? Depends on if I'm playing one ball, taking my time on every shot and trying to shoot a good score, I'll putt it. If I'm out trying to squeeze in a few holes in a short time frame, sure I'll pick it up and keep moving.

[mdgboxx]

Even with the best recording equipment money can buy, it never sounds quite the same at home.
That said, I've had "gimmies" tapped back to me occasionly. So, what am I going to do? Chip on the next hole 10 feet away from the cup on purpose? I'm not going to start WW3 over it but, if it is a tap in, I'll quickly say "I'll finish it" , and then say "I pay good money just to hear that sound even if it's for a triple bogey" (On a RARE occasion, of course)!

[bfactor]

[quote name='2fromthecup' date='01 July 2010 - 08:21 AM' timestamp='1277997668' post='2548863']
I absolutely hate it when someone in my group kicks my ball back to me saying"it's good enough" after Ive clawed my way to a for sure par putt even two inches away! Daamn it, I deserve to hear the ball clank in the cup....... it gives a mental boost.
On the other hand when plaing match play and the ball is closer than 1 foot..... concede, it most likely will be going in the hole.
[/quote]
I've had this happen when playing with strangers. Brushing in that 12" putt for birdie or a hard-earned par is the best part! I'm probably going to have my putter in hand anyway just out of habit and/or to tap down the ball mark. Let me tap it in and I'll take care of the flagstick.

I certainly don't care enough to make a fuss and act outraged, or even mention it at all, but it still annoys me.