Rules Question

[Knockdown]

8-1

I am playing with a guy in a tournament today. Our foursome is getting along well and on the 14th hole a guy sprays his ball way right into a spot were there is a ton of tall grass. He misses the fairway by 100 yards and is not that familiar with the course. I say politely "You may want to hit a provisional", he turns to me and says that is a penalty for giving advice. I was shocked. Is there anyway that is a penalty?

[marrigo]

Hmmm, that's an interesting one. Not sure, but a strict interpretation of the definition of "advice" and decision 8-1/16 would indicate that it was a penalty.

 

Advice

"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

 

Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstickon the putting green, is not advice.

 

 

8-1/16 Suggesting to Competitor That He Deem His Ball Unplayable

 

Q. B's ball was lying badly. B was deliberating what action to take when A, his fellow-competitor, said: "You have no shot at all. If I were you, I would deem the ball unplayable." Was A giving advice, contrary to Rule 8-1?

 

A. Yes. A's suggestion could have influenced B "in determining his play." Thus, it constituted advice — see Definition of "Advice." It did not constitute "information on the Rules," which is not advice.

 

 

[pinhigh27]

How does telling someone they need to hit a provisional worthy of penalty? That guy is a complete idiot. You should always hit a provisional. Saves you from waiting for that idiot for another 10 minutes after he has to moan and then walk back to the tee and re-hit.

[Socrates]

[quote name='marrigo' date='10 June 2010 - 05:17 PM' timestamp='1276208245' post='2501490']
[color="#474747"][size="2"][color="#474747"][b]Hmmm, that's an interesting one. Not sure, but a strict interpretation of the definition of "advice" and decision 8-1/16 would indicate that it was a penalty.[/b][/color]

[font="arial"][b][i][color="#696969"]Advice[/color][/i][/b][i][color="#696969"]
"[/color][/i][i][color="#696969"]Advice[/color][/i][i][color="#696969"]" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a [/color][/i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Stroke"][i][color="#696969"]stroke[/color][/i][/url][i][color="#696969"].[/color][/i]

[i][color="#696969"]Information on the [/color][/i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Rules"][i][color="#696969"]Rules[/color][/i][/url][i][color="#696969"], distance or matters of public information, such as the position of [/color][/i][i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hazards"][color="#696969"]hazards[/color][/url][/i][i][color="#696969"] or the [/color][/i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Flagstick"][i][color="#696969"]flagstick[/color][/i][/url][i][color="#696969"]on the [/color][/i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#PuttingGreen"][i][color="#696969"]putting green[/color][/i][/url][i][color="#696969"], is not [/color][/i][i][color="#696969"]advice[/color][/i][i][color="#696969"].[/color][/i]

[/size][/font][/color][/quote]


I would interpret this as information on the Rules since he is only giving him an option to hit a provisional and not giving him advice on how to play a shot, club choice or how to make a stroke. This is where the decision has to be left to a referee or the committee and I would have stood by my ball while he searched and announced when the 5 minutes were up. After the round I would tell the other guy to stuff it up his a**.

[Knockdown]

[quote name='pinhigh27' date='10 June 2010 - 03:44 PM' timestamp='1276209856' post='2501541']
How does telling someone they need to hit a provisional worthy of penalty? That guy is a complete idiot. You should always hit a provisional. Saves you from waiting for that idiot for another 10 minutes after he has to moan and then walk back to the tee and re-hit.
[/quote]

I was thinking the same thing. Especially after our club just sent out a reminder that people need to hit more provisionals, because too many people are walking back to the tee and our tournaments are playing way too slow.

I don't see how 8-1/16 is the same. I didn't see his lie. I didn't even know exactly where it landed it was so far over the trees and off the beaten path. I even said "you may want to..." instead of "you should..." which may be semantics, but it certainly seems different than "You have no shot at all. If I were you, I would deem the ball unplayable.". That is telling him how to play his shot, I was only suggesting he hit a provisional, because his first ball was going to be very difficult to find. I wasn't forcing him to do it, just making a suggestion.

[Tmiller72]

You were simply letting him know what one of his options were for a possible lost ball under the rules of golf. I hope you laughed in his face and didn't take a penalty.

[Knockdown]

[quote name='Tmiller72' date='10 June 2010 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1276212974' post='2501672']
You were simply letting him know what one of his options were for a possible lost ball under the rules of golf. I hope you laughed in his face and didn't take a penalty.
[/quote]

I certainly didn't take a penalty. Who knows if he will report it. I didn't want to make too big of a deal about it, but I asked him on the green when a guy started to mark a two footer and this guy said "go ahead" like don't worry about my line finish up, how that was any different. What was weird was this dude had no shot in the tournament and everyone was being really nice to each other in my group. This dude was a little off though. Tripped over his own bag on the second hole prior to hitting his tee shot when he decided to step back to line up his shot in his pre-shot routine, both him and his bag fell down. The whole thing totally caught me and the other people in my group off guard. One guy said "don't worry about it, I've never heard of that." and the other guy "the whole thing was confusing to me".

[Jameson465]

hahahah this is hilarious how could you not start the post as the guy that tripped on his bag LOL


you did the right thing people act like idiots when they dont feel comfortable or equal.....

[jjj912]

[quote name='Knockdown' date='10 June 2010 - 05:43 PM' timestamp='1276206204' post='2501437']
I am playing with a guy in a tournament today. Our foursome is getting along well and on the 14th hole a guy sprays his ball way right into a spot were there is a ton of tall grass. He misses the fairway by 100 yards and is not that familiar with the course. I say politely [b]"You may want to hit a provisional"[/b], he turns to me and says that is a penalty for giving advice. I was shocked. Is there anyway that is a penalty?
[/quote]

I think your comment constitutes advice because you are telling the other guy what he should do. This would be the "...suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play..." section of the definition of advice.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='jjj912' date='11 June 2010 - 09:52 AM' timestamp='1276264345' post='2502672']
[quote name='Knockdown' date='10 June 2010 - 05:43 PM' timestamp='1276206204' post='2501437']
I am playing with a guy in a tournament today. Our foursome is getting along well and on the 14th hole a guy sprays his ball way right into a spot were there is a ton of tall grass. He misses the fairway by 100 yards and is not that familiar with the course. I say politely [b]"You may want to hit a provisional"[/b], he turns to me and says that is a penalty for giving advice. I was shocked. Is there anyway that is a penalty?
[/quote]

I think your comment constitutes advice because you are telling the other guy what he should do. This would be the "...suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play..." section of the definition of advice.
[/quote]

This was not advice IMO. It did not suggest how he should play a shot , simply when he should play. It's the equivolent to, "I think you're out" when determining who should putt first.

Is it is advice if you suggest to a player that he should duck because a ball is headed toward him? After all, if it hits him it's likely to change the way he plays for the rest of the round!

[RickK]

The statement, "You may want to hit a provisional.", is definitely NOT a penalty.

[Marrrk]

[quote name='jjj912' date='11 June 2010 - 09:52 AM' timestamp='1276264345' post='2502672']
[quote name='Knockdown' date='10 June 2010 - 05:43 PM' timestamp='1276206204' post='2501437']
I am playing with a guy in a tournament today. Our foursome is getting along well and on the 14th hole a guy sprays his ball way right into a spot were there is a ton of tall grass. He misses the fairway by 100 yards and is not that familiar with the course. I say politely [b]"You may want to hit a provisional"[/b], he turns to me and says that is a penalty for giving advice. I was shocked. Is there anyway that is a penalty?
[/quote]

I think your comment constitutes advice because you are telling the other guy what he should do. This would be the "...suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play..." section of the definition of advice.
[/quote]

this is a good one. i'm no rules expert at all but in theory, shouldn't there be a difference between letting him know his options under the rules, and encouraging him to take a course of action. or is it more about the unsolicited aspect?

in the ruling above the example has Player A giving unsolicited advice on how to play a specific ball, encouraging Player B to forget it because Player A thinks it's unplayable. it seems like that should be deemed different from casually letting someone know the options they have under the rules. especially considering the nature of what a provisional is, which only helps him cover his own butt as thoroughly as possible.

thoughts?

[KevCarter]

[quote][i]Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstickon the putting green, is not advice[/i][/quote]

If officiating, I would not consider this as advice.

Kevin

[RickK]

[quote name='Knockdown' date='10 June 2010 - 07:22 PM' timestamp='1276215722' post='2501746']
[quote name='Tmiller72' date='10 June 2010 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1276212974' post='2501672']
You were simply letting him know what one of his options were for a possible lost ball under the rules of golf. I hope you laughed in his face and didn't take a penalty.
[/quote]

I certainly didn't take a penalty. Who knows if he will report it. I didn't want to make too big of a deal about it, but I asked him on the green when a guy started to mark a two footer and this guy said "go ahead" like don't worry about my line finish up, how that was any different. What was weird was this dude had no shot in the tournament and everyone was being really nice to each other in my group. This dude was a little off though. Tripped over his own bag on the second hole prior to hitting his tee shot when he decided to step back to line up his shot in his pre-shot routine, both him and his bag fell down. The whole thing totally caught me and the other people in my group off guard. One guy said "don't worry about it, I've never heard of that." and the other guy "the whole thing was confusing to me".
[/quote]


It would not have been a matter of him reporting it. Before I turned my card in, I would have drug him to the scoring table and said, "Ok, let's clear up this ADVICE thing you brought up." and then asked the officials. You weren't going to get penalized anyway.

[jjj912]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='11 June 2010 - 10:10 AM' timestamp='1276265430' post='2502702']
[quote name='jjj912' date='11 June 2010 - 09:52 AM' timestamp='1276264345' post='2502672']
[quote name='Knockdown' date='10 June 2010 - 05:43 PM' timestamp='1276206204' post='2501437']
...
[/quote]

...
[/quote]

This was not advice IMO. It did not suggest how he should play a shot , simply when he should play. It's the equivolent to, "I think you're out" when determining who should putt first.
[/quote]

The OP's situation isn't a case of a player asking if he [i]could play[/i] a provisional under the Rules or when he is allowed to play a provisional. The OP, on his initiative, told the other player that he [i]should play [/i]a provisional.

[QUOTE]
Is it is advice if you suggest to a player that he should duck because a ball is headed toward him? After all, if it hits him it's likely to change the way he plays for the rest of the round!
[/quote]

An interesting take on the situation. However, the answer is no, that is not advice. It is not advice because you are not telling the player what he should do for his next stroke or how he should do it. If the guy gets hit in the noggin, that might change how he plays, but that isn't the same you advising him about his swing or determination of his play.

[jjj912]

[quote name='Marrrk' date='11 June 2010 - 10:17 AM' timestamp='1276265854' post='2502717']
[quote name='jjj912' date='11 June 2010 - 09:52 AM' timestamp='1276264345' post='2502672']
[quote name='Knockdown' date='10 June 2010 - 05:43 PM' timestamp='1276206204' post='2501437']
...
[/quote]

...
[/quote]

this is a good one. i'm no rules expert at all but in theory, shouldn't there be a difference between letting him know his options under the rules, and encouraging him to take a course of action. or is it more about the unsolicited aspect?
...
[/quote]

You can tell a player about his options under the Rules, but to suggest a particular course of action is advice and is not allowed. The status of the advice (i.e. solicited or not) does affect who is penalized, but the advice is still against the Rules.

[Marrrk]

[quote name='jjj912' date='11 June 2010 - 12:47 PM' timestamp='1276274827' post='2503014']
You can tell a player about his options under the Rules, but to suggest a particular course of action is advice and is not allowed. The status of the advice (i.e. solicited or not) does affect who is penalized, but the advice is still against the Rules.
[/quote]

Understood. So where does what the OP did lie? Is the difference in saying "You can" versus "You should"? That seems like quite a stretch.

And isn't the purpose of a provisional itself an important part of this? The results of the provisional do not effect the ball that was initially played.

[puttingmatt]

This is why you leave the decision making to the
guy who hit it O.B. When he has decided that he
can not find his errant ball, you can watch him take
his lonely walk back to the teeing area. Do not give
advice!!!

[jjj912]

[quote name='Marrrk' date='11 June 2010 - 01:29 PM' timestamp='1276277380' post='2503119']
[quote name='jjj912' date='11 June 2010 - 12:47 PM' timestamp='1276274827' post='2503014']
You can tell a player about his options under the Rules, but to suggest a particular course of action is advice and is not allowed. The status of the advice (i.e. solicited or not) does affect who is penalized, but the advice is still against the Rules.
[/quote]

Understood. So where does what the OP did lie? Is the difference in saying "You can" versus "You should"? That seems like quite a stretch.

And isn't the purpose of a provisional itself an important part of this? The results of the provisional do not effect the ball that was initially played.
[/quote]

I think the "should" versus "could" is important, though I understand why that might seem like quite a stretch. When I read the OP's post, it just sounded like he was clearly telling the other player what he should do and that is advice.

If the OP had said "...could play a provisional...", I think there is still an argument to be made that he is still offering advice. Without first being asked, telling player, who presumably already knows the Rules, what is options are doesn't seem to be much different than telling the player what he should do. I have to make this argument because otherwise you have a potential loophole that leads to non-sensical outcomes.

[mdgboxx]

Bad choice of words. "will you hit a provisional ball?" is a request for information. "You may want to hit....ball" is actualy a suggestion to take action, therefore advice. Maybe you missed a great opportunity to just be quiet, !

 

Does it warrant a penalty?

 

I'll have to go along with Kev on this one.......Lets not go overboard.

 

BTW, I hope he was carrying his bag, otherwise, what's it doing on the teebox for him to trip over?

[Sawgrass]

Please. "You may want to hit a provisional" is essentially providing public information about the course. It's the same as saying, "The grass is high over there and your ball may be lost."

And if the ball is lost, the player will have to come back later and play from the same place, so the suggestion to hit a provisional only effects [u]when[/u] the shot is taken, not [u]how[/u], or is otherwise irrelevant if the original is found.


[b][url=""][/url]Advice[/b]
"[i]Advice[/i]" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Stroke"][i]stroke[/i][/url].

[size="3"][b]Information on the [/b][/size][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Rules"][i][size="3"][b]Rules[/b][/size][/i][/url][size="3"][b], distance or matters of public information, such as the position of [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hazards"]hazards[/url][/i] or the [/b][/size][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Flagstick"][i][size="3"][b]flagstick[/b][/size][/i][/url][size="3"][b] on the [/b][/size][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#PuttingGreen"][i][size="3"][b]putting green[/b][/size][/i][/url][size="3"][b], is not [i]advice[/i].[/b][/size]

[mdgboxx]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='12 June 2010 - 12:07 AM' timestamp='1276315622' post='2504250']
Please. "You may want to hit a provisional" is essentially providing public information about the course. It's the same as saying, "The grass is high over there and your ball may be lost."

And if the ball is lost, the player will have to come back later and play from the same place, so the suggestion to hit a provisional only effects [u]when[/u] the shot is taken, not [u]how[/u], or is otherwise irrelevant if the original is found.


[b]Advice[/b]
"[i]Advice[/i]" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Stroke"][i]stroke[/i][/url].

[size="3"][b]Information on the [/b][/size][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Rules"][i][size="3"][b]Rules[/b][/size][/i][/url][size="3"][b], distance or matters of public information, such as the position of [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hazards"]hazards[/url][/i] or the [/b][/size][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Flagstick"][i][size="3"][b]flagstick[/b][/size][/i][/url][size="3"][b] on the [/b][/size][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#PuttingGreen"][i][size="3"][b]putting green[/b][/size][/i][/url][size="3"][b], is not [i]advice[/i].[/b][/size]


[/quote]


"You may want to take the van" when there is a sports car available is a SUGGESTION and it's not the same as saying: "There is a lot of traffic at this hour, it may take you longer to get there". But, I'm still with Kev on this one...No big deal!

[marrigo]

Sounds like this may be a good one to ask the USGA. You can email them a question.

[mdgboxx]

[quote name='marrigo' date='12 June 2010 - 07:48 PM' timestamp='1276386510' post='2505337']
Sounds like this may be a good one to ask the USGA. You can email them a question.

[/quote]


And I can't wait for the reply you get from them!

The tournament official's decision is final, it doesn't mean that he always goes by the Book, it means that he uses common sense.

Here's a better one for you: Following the Rules, your caddie does not stand directly behind the hole on your extended line of putt but, he inadvertently holds the LEANED flagstick, standing exactly where you must aim your shot in order to have the correct curve to sink your putt; But, you don't say: "I'm aiming at your feet", Is that legaly cheating?

[stevestrike]

+8 Not advice, and not a rules violation.

[Sawgrass]

. . . Is that legaly cheating?

 

Hmmm . . . It's so hard to determine what actions are legally cheating when there is no such thing.

 

 

But more to the point, you can aim anywhere you want. But your caddie can't touch the line in his attempt to advise you:

 

8-2b/2 Caddie Attending Flagstick Advises Player to Aim at His Foot

 

Q. A player's ball lies on the putting green and his caddie attends the flagstick for him. The caddie suggests, before the stroke, that the player aim at the caddie's left foot. Is the player in breach of Rule 8-2b?

 

A. If the caddie had placed his foot in position for the purpose of pointing out the line for putting, the player was in breach of Rule 8-2b as soon as the caddie placed his foot in that position. The breach could not be corrected by the caddie subsequently moving his foot.

 

If the caddie did not initially place his foot in such a position for the purpose of pointing out the line for putting but subsequently suggested the player aim at his left foot, the player would be in breach of Rule 8-2b if the caddie did not move that foot to another position that does not indicate a line for putting prior to the stroke.

 

The same answer would apply if a player's partner attends the flagstick for him.

 

 

[tony_teetime]

[quote name='Knockdown' date='10 June 2010 - 05:43 PM' timestamp='1276206204' post='2501437']
I am playing with a guy in a tournament today. Our foursome is getting along well and on the 14th hole a guy sprays his ball way right into a spot were there is a ton of tall grass. He misses the fairway by 100 yards and is not that familiar with the course. I say politely "You may want to hit a provisional", he turns to me and says that is a penalty for giving advice. I was shocked. Is there anyway that is a penalty?
[/quote]

It's should not be a penalty. However, I would have "asked" him if he wanted to hit a provisional instead of suggesting. Perhaps he was offended. Regardless, that guy is a tool. He showed no courtesy to his playing partner for choosing to not hit a provisional, since he may potentially have to walk back to the tee box again and hold up his playing partners. That's not cool.

[marrigo]

Just received a reply from the USGA. I was wrong. It is not considered advice because it was providing information about the rules. The "should, could, can , might want too," wording is irrelevant. Glad that's cleared up.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='marrigo' date='15 June 2010 - 10:01 AM' timestamp='1276610478' post='2510468']
Just received a reply from the USGA. I was wrong. It is not considered advice because it was providing information about the rules. The "should, could, can , might want too, wording is irrelevant. Glad that's cleared up.
[/quote]


Thanks for posting Marrigo. It's always nice to get a definitive answer.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='marrigo' date='15 June 2010 - 09:01 AM' timestamp='1276610478' post='2510468']
Just received a reply from the USGA. I was wrong. It is not considered advice because it was providing information about the rules. The "should, could, can , might want too," wording is irrelevant. Glad that's cleared up.
[/quote]

Thank You.

Kevin