Least favorite design feature on a golf hole.

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1303840860' post='3187378']
As for the OP's forced layups on Par 4's, seems that's solved by moving up a tee or two so it can be cleared; is that not true?

< snip >

As for those claiming, but "I am an short hitter"; there's nothing wrong with that except if its suggested "all" courses should some how accommodate through design... There's a reason for many different types and lengths of courses. Furthermore, when we can no longer carry certain distances, and moving up tee's doesn't help, that's when we go to a shorter, less difficult courses. We must accept our own limitations and choose accordingly.
[/quote]

Maybe a pictures is worth a thousand words.

From the front men's tees, 420 yard par four into the prevailing wind from the south. Each shot on the line is about 210. Tee shot is downhill; most people trying to layup as close to that creek as they can, so some going into the hazard from the tee. Others failing to get it close at all, leaving 220+ and 150ish carry over the creek to the fairway.

This is on a pretty easy muni course. Not a difficult hole for a good golfer, and others could manage it better by being more willing to hit to the fairway in front of the green. But nonetheless, all these issues make this hole a little bit of a bottleneck on the course.

If the green were about 50 yards closer, it might not be a better hole, but maybe less golfers would feel such a "need" to get close to the creek off the tee.

( edit ) the front edge of the hazard is much closer to the tee than it appears on the picture.

[attachment=773526:15thhole.jpg]

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1303915246' post='3189923']
[quote name='OneBowTie' timestamp='1303870661' post='3188858']
..... so I'll list some of the courses that a man of your stature might frequent and give you some of the course yardages

Here are just a few courses in CA that vary in yardages
[/quote]

All those courses jump from the high number to the low, with no tees in between?
[/quote]

Those are the spreads of the tee boxes. Some have more tee boxes available then others, but those numbers represent the long tee box compared to the shortest tee box available on that course.

[Pepperturbo]

Really a good thread that has evolved into many good thoughts and suggestions.

 

In regards to OP's position of forced layups....... on long par 4's that changing tee box's would have no effect on, its just another design flaw that leads to slow play and long rounds.

 

I think that most all of todays slow play problems are related to design flaws of the golf course.

 

Courses that have 2 par 5's on the same side that a majority of golfers will try to get home in two generally leads to a huge back up on course.

 

Add in par 3's that stretch out to 200 plus yards with those go for it par 5's, and you have a slow play disaster in the making.

 

I also agree that courses that have OB within the course, is another course that most likely will have slow play and long rounds. Bad design in my opinion.

 

I also agree that any course that puts boulders, tree's or anything in the middle of the fairway is a bad design, and again, probably leads to slow play and course back ups.

 

I love a course that offers various challenge and design by having long and short holes, but if smartly designed, they will add to fast pace of play and challenging and enjoyable rounds by all.

 

A par 4 that measures 450 plus that has a pond at 200 yards in the middle of the fairway is a lousy design, hit a drive 190 and have to hit 260 to get home- just isn't a reality for most amateur golfers- which will cause for tons of balls in drink off tee, and then tons more lost left/right for over swinging- which leads to a huge course back up and slow play.... I would avoid that type of course at all costs.

 

Sorry, but blaming slow play or someone's poor judgment, or... on course design is simply ludicrous.... All golfers have 14 clubs in their bag. Its not the designers fault if many only use this or that club because it's their favorite or longest club. At that juncture they should be using course management, moreover practicing to be effective with all fourteen clubs and have the good sense to move up to the tee that allows them reasonable GIR and possibly to clear the hazard. If my 12 handicap wife can manage it from the White tees' there's no reason men can't.

 

Slow play in almost all cases has to do with course design....... like I said, where you have a course that has 2 par 5's on same side where most golfers are going to try and get home in two is bad course design..... OB within the course is bad design, has nothing to do with what or how your wife hits a golf ball.... these are just a few examples of what starts/adds too/creates slow play. Or I suppose you don't think a course that has a par 5 that most golfers tend to go for it in two, followed up on the next hole by a very long par 3 with a long carry over a hazard and surrounded by deep bunkers everywhere doesn't add to slow play either.... bad course designs add to slow play, course management is just another element that can also lead to slow play.......

 

And seeing how you mentioned GPS units- I love em and use them, but I am seeing more and more people use them and instead of it speeding up their play, they seem to cause them to slow down play.....they tend to look at their GPS units, then start walking all over the course to see a marked sprinkler head to check the yardage of their unit..... then go back to cart and get a club..... but some would say that they are exercising good course management to get the very best yardage available to them- I call it slow play period.

 

 

I have seen plenty of par 4 holes that force almost ALL golfers to layup..... I guess you think on a course like that most golfers should go from playing 6300 yards to the 5200 yard tee marker so that they can clear the hazard!

 

 

Yes I see where you and your wife have excellent course management skills- but really, I'd expect nothing less from you when it comes to any kind of management skills- however, when you talk about the vast majority of amateur golfers- there is a reason the majority can't break 90- so course design plays a huge part into slow play- I wish we could put more faith into the average golfer that they will always pick the right club, and hit it correctly everytime-especially when you place hazards or anything else in their sight that might cause them to tighten up and impede course management skills.

 

 

My intent is NOT to argue... Due to business I travel extensively at times...MI, TX, AZ & CA are the most common, but NY and DC sneak in now and again. I never go anywhere without my clubs either. :) First off, I seldom see golfers going for Par 5's in two, and I play 2-3 times per week, every week. I seldom see a course jump from 6300 to 5200; so I can't image where your playing.

 

You can blame course design, but for the most part research has shown that's not the cause. Having been on the board of two clubs where we've commissioned reports for all types of issues; design has been a factor, but not high on the list. One factor that influences slow play are untrained cart girls stopping in the wrong spots, and guys constantly drinking while playing. Another factor is water carry shots on the first or tenth tee, and golfers stopping to order lunch at the turn, instead of being able to order from a call box on the 9th tee.

 

There are other influences, but I have an 2 fingers of single malt on the mind, so I am outa here. Have a good one.

 

Pepper...... come on you really didn't just tell me that you play all over the globe and "seldom" see a course yardage jump from 6300 down to 5200 yards you should really look at the score cards more often. I won't bother listing any of the common man courses that you don't play..... so I'll list some of the courses that a man of your stature might frequent and give you some of the course yardages

 

Here are just a few courses in CA that vary in yardages

Aviara 7007 yards down to 5007 yards

Westin Mission Hills- 6700 down to 4800

Torrey Pines South- 7600 yards down to 5500

Pebble Beach 6700 yards down to 5200

 

some notable NY course you may have heard of

 

Shinnecock Hills - 6800 down to 5300

Fishers Island Club- 6600 down to 5300

 

Michigan courses that are popular

 

Bay Harbor- from 7000 yards down to 4100

Arcadia Bluffs from 7300 down to 5200

Tulleymore 7200 down to 4700

 

Now I play on average of at least 3 times per week myself, and have been lucky enough to play some courses in various states..... and I quite regularly see yardages vary from the different tee markers.

 

I'm sure all the studies you've been involved with on golf courses has told you what all the problems of slow play are.... and why does it not surprise me that course design is low on that list of studies..... If I didn't know better, I swear you work for government with your studies that tell you everything but what the real problems are..... heck with all your vast knowledge and course experience, you should have saved them the time and money on them studies and just told them like you tell everyone here what all the problems are ..... and how to correct them...... no argument from me- you have all the answers all the time

 

:lol: When studies are conducted they are not the result of talking to people that are not credible, or using personal opinions. DB banter is all too often misrepresented or thought to be fact. Sorry, to have to tell you this, but that's not how its done. :)

 

I've played Aviara many times. True back tees are 7k - but blues are 6500+, whites are 6k, don't know what the Red tee's are. Have to ask my wife. Anyways, what you implied does NOT equate to 6300 dn to 5200. And, since I've played both courses at Westin Mission Hills, most in the Desert and Scottsdale and Tucson, including many of the pvt clubs, and in San Diego, including TP North & South, which both have acceptable yardage drops from each tee; simply put, what you imply is NOT correct. Debating this further has no merit... believe what you will. Have a good one, I am teeing off in a 1hr.

[mstrymxer]

lackluster and long par 3's!!!!!!! there is one course around here were the tips play 250+ depending on flag/tee location. and its not even that hard of a hole. no sand and water by the tee. easy par even if you miss the green. but then two holes later there is a 120 yd par 3 that plays over par usually bc the grenn has crazy slope and sand in front.

[burns9304]

Things that drive me nuts:
1. Tee boxes that aim you towards the rough or a hazard
2. Blind hazards
3. Par 5s that force you to hit iron off the tee

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='OneBowTie'] Those are the spreads of the tee boxes. Some have more tee boxes available then others, but those numbers represent the long tee box compared to the shortest tee box available on that course.
[/quote]

That is great then...choices for the golfer, rather than a large jump between consecutive tees.

[Go_Blue!]

[quote name='Huskypride28' timestamp='1303868850' post='3188737']
My biggest pet peeve, and I usually find it on muni courses, are tee boxes that are aimed to the right or left of the fairway.
[/quote]

Great point. ....I really forgot about this. I have issues with alignment when things go bad and when u get to a tee box with this issue I'm all out of whack with balance, swing, everything

[deadsolid...shank]

I didn't read all the posts, so if this one is duplicate I apologize.

I dislike when tree branches encroach on or near the tee box that dictate only one way to play the tee shot.

[Zephead]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1303865441' post='3188483']
My intent is NOT to argue... Due to business I travel extensively at times...MI, TX, AZ & CA are the most common, but NY and DC sneak in now and again. I never go anywhere without my clubs either. First off, I seldom see golfers going for Par 5's in two, and I play 2-3 times per week, every week. I seldom see a course jump from 6300 to 5200; so I can't image where your playing.

You can blame course design, but for the most part research has shown that's not the cause. Having been on the board of two clubs where we've commissioned reports for all types of issues; design has been a factor, but not high on the list. One factor that influences slow play are untrained cart girls stopping in the wrong spots, and guys constantly drinking while playing. Another factor is water carry shots on the first or tenth tee, and golfers stopping to order lunch at the turn, instead of being able to order from a call box on the 9th tee.

There are other influences, but I have an 2 fingers of single malt on the mind, so I am outa here. Have a good one.
[/quote]


I'm going to have to agree with Bowtie on this one. To say course design does not have an effect on pace of play and to put the majority of the blame on drinking and cart girls is a little absurd. Sure they will cause delays but to dismiss poor course layout as "low on the list" is a little short sighted.
Common sense tells you that if you put a short par 5 or driveable Par 4 followed by a long Par 3 it is going to slow down play. Play in any weekend scramble tournament, where the slow downs really get exagerated, and you'll see where exactly all the pile-ups occur. Short Par 5s and short Par 4s followed by long Par 3s or preceeded by really short Par 3s or holes with blind hazzards where people are going to be looking for their balls.
I want to know what courses you play. You say you play 100-150 times a year and SELDOM see people going for Par 5s in two?? Every course you play must have 550+ yard Par 5s or the greens are all protected by water. Anything shorter than that and you can guarantee someone in my group is going for it in two.

[OneBowTie]

Your a real piece of work Pepper...... you jump into the thread and say things, and when somebody says something to counter what you said or implied or something that you don't like, all you can do is say there is no merit. In case you were impaired last night when you jumped on my post to say that people should play the correct tee box for courses with forced carries..... I stated or implied that if somebody were playing a 6300 yard course .... they might have to move up to 5200 yard marker on that hole or others just so they can carry a forced carry..... you came back with your post of how worldly you are and how often you play golf and that you seldom see course's jump from those yardages.... yet I point out on courses that you frequently play the jumps of yardages and tee boxes and you can only say that isn't what I said or implied....... all because you don't like to argue

 

Oh by the way, the reds at Aviara are 5007 yards, and the tee box setup at Westin Mission Hills Resort is Black 6706, Gold 6158, Silver 5587, Jade 4841.......and at Aviara- the first 3 par 5's there from the blue tee's= 6591 yards play like this....hole no. 5 is 508 yards, hole 8 plays 519 and hole 10 plays 489 yards.... I wonder if anybody ever goes for those greens in two from the blue tee's..... let alone from the two sets of tee boxes in front of them

 

 

Zephead if Pepper says he never see's people go for greens in two...... it might explain why he doesn't see courses that have yardage differences and tee boxes spread out from over 6300 to less then 5200 yards...... hard to see things with your eyes wide shut

[Sean2]

For me just two words: blind shots.

[gmangolf]

To be sure there will be a lot of different responses to this. My number one issue however has to be trees that are in play on par 3's. Our course has a 210 yard par 3 where most of the green is behind a huge tree. You literally have to hit it around the tree, or try to hit a long iron over the tree to a blind pin. DUMB hole. Every year I hope that tree gets hit by lightning.

[IIdiceII]

theres a par 3 near my dads house at a little muni course.

 

its short, probably 135-140 yds. there is a HUGEEEE tree smack right in front of the green. directly in the center between the tee box and green. you have to hit over it to land on the green. i feel bad for the guys who cant get the ball airborne cause you gotta hit around and get up and down for par

[IIdiceII]

red line represents tee to green...circle is the tree you have to hit over :russian_roulette: during the summer its much bigger. luckily its a very easy and small course. good to play 9 holes if you have an hour to kill during the week or something

 

[geesecougar2]

Your a real piece of work Pepper...... you jump into the thread and say things, and when somebody says something to counter what you said or implied or something that you don't like, all you can do is say there is no merit. In case you were impaired last night when you jumped on my post to say that people should play the correct tee box for courses with forced carries..... I stated or implied that if somebody were playing a 6300 yard course .... they might have to move up to 5200 yard marker on that hole or others just so they can carry a forced carry..... you came back with your post of how worldly you are and how often you play golf and that you seldom see course's jump from those yardages.... yet I point out on courses that you frequently play the jumps of yardages and tee boxes and you can only say that isn't what I said or implied....... all because you don't like to argue

 

Oh by the way, the reds at Aviara are 5007 yards, and the tee box setup at Westin Mission Hills Resort is Black 6706, Gold 6158, Silver 5587, Jade 4841.......and at Aviara- the first 3 par 5's there from the blue tee's= 6591 yards play like this....hole no. 5 is 508 yards, hole 8 plays 519 and hole 10 plays 489 yards.... I wonder if anybody ever goes for those greens in two from the blue tee's..... let alone from the two sets of tee boxes in front of them

 

 

Zephead if Pepper says he never see's people go for greens in two...... it might explain why he doesn't see courses that have yardage differences and tee boxes spread out from over 6300 to less then 5200 yards...... hard to see things with your eyes wide shut

 

 

It's all just his roundabout way of saying that anyone who isn't a single digit should either play the shortest tees possible or stick only to dog tracks, executive, and par 3 courses.

 

But hackers are gonna go play nice courses, and the nice courses need hackers to come play. And a lot of golfers can't carry a lot of hazards even from white tees; good luck getting them to play the red tees. There is a lot of merit in the point that some forethought in design would really alleviate slow play.

[Pepperturbo]

Your a real piece of work Pepper...... you jump into the thread and say things, and when somebody says something to counter what you said or implied or something that you don't like, all you can do is say there is no merit. In case you were impaired last night when you jumped on my post to say that people should play the correct tee box for courses with forced carries..... I stated or implied that if somebody were playing a 6300 yard course .... they might have to move up to 5200 yard marker on that hole or others just so they can carry a forced carry..... you came back with your post of how worldly you are and how often you play golf and that you seldom see course's jump from those yardages.... yet I point out on courses that you frequently play the jumps of yardages and tee boxes and you can only say that isn't what I said or implied....... all because you don't like to argue

 

Oh by the way, the reds at Aviara are 5007 yards, and the tee box setup at Westin Mission Hills Resort is Black 6706, Gold 6158, Silver 5587, Jade 4841.......and at Aviara- the first 3 par 5's there from the blue tee's= 6591 yards play like this....hole no. 5 is 508 yards, hole 8 plays 519 and hole 10 plays 489 yards.... I wonder if anybody ever goes for those greens in two from the blue tee's..... let alone from the two sets of tee boxes in front of them

 

 

Zephead if Pepper says he never see's people go for greens in two...... it might explain why he doesn't see courses that have yardage differences and tee boxes spread out from over 6300 to less then 5200 yards...... hard to see things with your eyes wide shut

 

You're not worth talking with.

[Snufles]

A straight par 4 with a giant hump in the middle. No way of knowing if the group ahead has cleared the landing zone or if they are hunting for a lost ball. Slows the pace of play considerably.

[Random Hack]

Any blind tee shot where you rely on the group ahead of you to ring a bell to let you know that it's okay to hit.

[RRFireblade]

Well I guess I'll jump in here. Probably stuff already mentioned and a bunch I'll get flames for.

I'd say my biggest issues is with "things" in the dead middle of the fairway. Not things you can hit over but things like trees , bunkers , water features , etc positioned right where your expected to hit the 'perfect' tee shot. WTF.

Not a fan of blind tees either on any course I'm not real familiar with. Im pretty long off the tee and always get a "Just aim at the_____ and your fine , (crack) thats perfect" and then drive up there to see I've like flown the fairway and landed in a house or pickup truck down the street.

Lastly , just another personal thing but tees to huge drops in elevation. I'm a pretty high ball hitter and have absolute no luck judging the drop when it really matters (Par3s/layups/etc)

I actually like forced layups. Makes you think and makes you have to 'hit' a real second shot.

I LOVE par 3s with things in the way that force you to have to work the ball. Why should any hole on a decent track include anything thats mearly a chip shot off the tee. That means most here hate me for preferring long par 3 toos. One of my favorite tiny local courses has 3 of 4 in a row on the back (par31). Something like 215,195,235. Now thats a par 3.

I guess my number one 'complaint' tho overall is unrealistic pin positions. Like on a side hill going away , down wind with water behind. Usually in a part of the green that you couldn't 2 putt from 10 feet if you placed the ball by hand. Sometimes I think the guys cutting the holes in have never played the game.

[Random Hack]

[quote name='RRFireblade' timestamp='1303947266' post='3191555']
Well I guess I'll jump in here. Probably stuff already mentioned and a bunch I'll get flames for.

I'd say my biggest issues is with "things" in the dead middle of the fairway. Not things you can hit over but things like trees , bunkers , water features , etc positioned right where your expected to hit the 'perfect' tee shot. WTF.

Not a fan of blind tees either on any course I'm not real familiar with. Im pretty long off the tee and always get a "Just aim at the_____ and your fine , (crack) thats perfect" and then drive up there to see I've like flown the fairway and landed in a house or pickup truck down the street.

Lastly , just another personal thing but tees to huge drops in elevation. I'm a pretty high ball hitter and have absolute no luck judging the drop when it really matters (Par3s/layups/etc)

[b]I actually like forced layups. Makes you think and makes you have to 'hit' a real second shot.
[/b]
I LOVE par 3s with things in the way that force you to have to work the ball. Why should any hole on a decent track include anything thats mearly a chip shot off the tee. That means most here hate me for preferring long par 3 toos. One of my favorite tiny local courses has 3 of 4 in a row on the back (par31). Something like 215,195,235. Now thats a par 3.

I guess my number one 'complaint' tho overall is unrealistic pin positions. Like on a side hill going away , down wind with water behind. Usually in a part of the green that you couldn't 2 putt from 10 feet if you placed the ball by hand. Sometimes I think the guys cutting the holes in have never played the game.
[/quote]


By definition, if it's a "forced layup" it removes all thought from the equation.

I don't mind if a designer wants to make it difficult or even silly to hit a driver on a par four or a par five (#18 at Harbour Town, for instance), but I like designers that give that option - give the player some rope and see if he wants to hang himself.

I do have an issue with a 440 yard par four that has a 60 yard creek cutting the fairway at 220 yards - to me, that's just stupid (but unfortunately something I encounter fairly often).

[OneBowTie]

Your a real piece of work Pepper...... you jump into the thread and say things, and when somebody says something to counter what you said or implied or something that you don't like, all you can do is say there is no merit. In case you were impaired last night when you jumped on my post to say that people should play the correct tee box for courses with forced carries..... I stated or implied that if somebody were playing a 6300 yard course .... they might have to move up to 5200 yard marker on that hole or others just so they can carry a forced carry..... you came back with your post of how worldly you are and how often you play golf and that you seldom see course's jump from those yardages.... yet I point out on courses that you frequently play the jumps of yardages and tee boxes and you can only say that isn't what I said or implied....... all because you don't like to argue

 

Oh by the way, the reds at Aviara are 5007 yards, and the tee box setup at Westin Mission Hills Resort is Black 6706, Gold 6158, Silver 5587, Jade 4841.......and at Aviara- the first 3 par 5's there from the blue tee's= 6591 yards play like this....hole no. 5 is 508 yards, hole 8 plays 519 and hole 10 plays 489 yards.... I wonder if anybody ever goes for those greens in two from the blue tee's..... let alone from the two sets of tee boxes in front of them

 

 

Zephead if Pepper says he never see's people go for greens in two...... it might explain why he doesn't see courses that have yardage differences and tee boxes spread out from over 6300 to less then 5200 yards...... hard to see things with your eyes wide shut

 

 

It's all just his roundabout way of saying that anyone who isn't a single digit should either play the shortest tees possible or stick only to dog tracks, executive, and par 3 courses.

 

But hackers are gonna go play nice courses, and the nice courses need hackers to come play. And a lot of golfers can't carry a lot of hazards even from white tees; good luck getting them to play the red tees. There is a lot of merit in the point that some forethought in design would really alleviate slow play.

 

I'm not sure what he is trying to say...... he says something and then comes back and acts like he is clueless as to what he even started arguing about

 

Oh ya, he doesn't think course design has much to do with slowing play down....... his "commissioned" studies have told him otherwise! Hot dogs and cart girls are bigger issues....LMAO

 

For someone having been on two golf course boards, he sure doesn't seem to get it that the vast majority of golfers are hackers....... even those that belong to private clubs, and they struggle with scoring whether its a tough golf hole or not, and when you ad in a few designs that are a recipe for disaster to the average golfer, it creates the slow play and bottle necks that everyone hates and complains the most about. And just because the majority of those golfers may not be able to break 90, put them out on certain golf courses and they will try to clear a hazard that they may clear 1 out of 20 attempts..... and they will most often slice, hook, dunk, the majority of those shots whether it was going for a green in two on a reachable par 5...... or whether its hitting into that pond/lake/hazard that was designed into the course from off the tee, knowing upon design and build that the vast majority wouldn't/couldn't clear...... leading to the start of a course backup and miserable round for all that follow.

[RRFireblade]

[quote name='YipMaster' timestamp='1303947645' post='3191569']
By definition, if it's a "forced layup" it removes all thought from the equation.
[/quote]


I guess you've never sat there for 10 mins while guys are freaking out trying to figure out what to hit or not hit , how NOT to reach the water but the dont want to be too short. Whats the second shot going to be like, etc. Then they either fat one 100yrds or pure it and watch it take 2 big hops out to the middle of the drink. Ooops.

IMO , the opposite is more true. You pull up to the tee , take a glance at the farway , pull driver and off you go.

[DMViking]

Back when I was younger, I played in a tournament where there was a short 90 yd par 3 with a flat green and no hazards or elevation. Seems like a waste of a hole to me. Thankfully there was some challenge to the rest of the course.

Also, I don't like Par 3's with a green so elevated you don't even know what's at the top of that mountain in front of you. Takes any sort of strategy out of the shot and leaves you hoping for the best.

[Random Hack]

[quote name='RRFireblade' timestamp='1303948320' post='3191604']
[quote name='YipMaster' timestamp='1303947645' post='3191569']
By definition, if it's a "forced layup" it removes all thought from the equation.
[/quote]


I guess you've never sat there for 10 mins while guys are freaking out trying to figure out what to hit or not hit , how NOT to reach the water but the dont want to be too short. Whats the second shot going to be like, etc. Then they either fat one 100yrds or pure it and watch it take 2 big hops out to the middle of the drink. Ooops.

IMO , the opposite is more true. You pull up to the tee , take a glance at the farway , pull driver and off you go.


[/quote]


Nope, have honestly never seen that - I've seen people try to layup to as close as possible to the hazard and go in, but I've never seen anyone take 10 minutes to figure out which club to hit.

Pretty simple - you take as much club that you can that can't reach the hazard - really, really simple stuff.

[teejaywhy]

As I read through this thread, I'm a bit saddened by the realization of the overwhelming embrace of the modern "American" style of golf course. It seems we love the sameness and predictability that is so often found with the modern game. These newer courses all have a one dimensional, white-bread sort of presentation, without any soul and lacking any quirk or character. The modern golf course presents a single manner of play, no strategy or thought is needed, no options are offered. Every hole the same. The primary concern is the visual aesthetic with not much consideration of the actual play of the game.

Similar to the manner in which our beer, our coffee and our bread had evolved into watered down facsimiles of the real thing, targeted toward the lowest common denominator and stripped of any distinctive flavors in the attempt to gain the largest market and offer the longest shelf life.

In recent years however, we have seen trends that show the beginning of a reversal of the slide toward mediocrity. The growth of microbreweries has led to a revival of the proud brewing traditions and the increasing popularity of craft beers with real flavors not found in the same old Bud/Coors/Miller. Starbucks (etc...) has introduced a new generation to better coffee and more people discover the bold, fresh taste that just can't be found in a can of Folgers. As well, shoppers are more able to find freshly baked breads as many supermarkets are now offering European style loaves that are so much better than the baked-weeks-ago-gummy-wad-of dough-wrapped-in-plastic that is Wonder Bread.

So with some hope for the new generations of golfers, there is a glimmer of a "renaissance" in golf course design that is slowly taking root. New stuff that evokes a throwback if you will, to the the origins of the game from the links of the British Isles and the early 20th century "golden age" American designs. Golf courses that are meant for golfing. Courses like Sand Hills, Bandon Dunes, Ballyneal mark a real paradigm shift.

My only hope is that more people are able to open their minds and experience for themselves, the joy of links golf or some of the recent American creations that evoke links sensibilities. You will find blind shots. "Stuff" in the middle of the fairway. Firm fast conditions that bring the ground into play. Humps and bumps that can be used to feed the ball toward the target, or away if the shot is not properly executed. The wind is a factor. Walking is encouraged. Golf is more a "game" and less of a penal slog.

[DMViking]

[quote name='tjy355' timestamp='1303951518' post='3191767']
As I read through this thread, I'm a bit saddened by the realization of the overwhelming embrace of the modern "American" style of golf course. It seems we love the sameness and predictability that is so often found with the modern game. These newer courses all have a one dimensional, white-bread sort of presentation, without any soul and lacking any quirk or character. The modern golf course presents a single manner of play, no strategy or thought is needed, no options are offered. Every hole the same. The primary concern is the visual aesthetic with not much consideration of the actual play of the game.

Similar to the manner in which our beer, our coffee and our bread had evolved into watered down facsimiles of the real thing, targeted toward the lowest common denominator and stripped of any distinctive flavors in the attempt to gain the largest market and offer the longest shelf life.

In recent years however, we have seen trends that show the beginning of a reversal of the slide toward mediocrity. The growth of microbreweries has led to a revival of the proud brewing traditions and the increasing popularity of craft beers with real flavors not found in the same old Bud/Coors/Miller. Starbucks (etc...) has introduced a new generation to better coffee and more people discover the bold, fresh taste that just can't be found in a can of Folgers. As well, shoppers are more able to find freshly baked breads as many supermarkets are now offering European style loaves that are so much better than the baked-weeks-ago-gummy-wad-of dough-wrapped-in-plastic that is Wonder Bread.

So with some hope for the new generations of golfers, there is a glimmer of a "renaissance" in golf course design that is slowly taking root. New stuff that evokes a throwback if you will, to the the origins of the game from the links of the British Isles and the early 20th century "golden age" American designs. Golf courses that are meant for golfing. Courses like Sand Hills, Bandon Dunes, Ballyneal mark a real paradigm shift.

My only hope is that more people are able to open their minds and experience for themselves, the joy of links golf or some of the recent American creations that evoke links sensibilities. You will find blind shots. "Stuff" in the middle of the fairway. Firm fast conditions that bring the ground into play. Humps and bumps that can be used to feed the ball toward the target, or away if the shot is not properly executed. The wind is a factor. Walking is encouraged. Golf is more a "game" and less of a penal slog.
[/quote]

Excellent post! I love courses that make you think and allow you to play a variety of different shots. You mentioned designs improving. Check out Cabot Links. A new course being designed in Nova Scotia that makes you think you're looking at a Scottish Links course. Only 10 holes are completed as of yet but I'm salivating at the opportunity to play that course.

[RRFireblade]

[quote name='YipMaster' timestamp='1303951216' post='3191747']
really, really simple stuff.
[/quote]


For some.

[vballer08]

Tree in the dead center of the fairway. no reason one should be punished for pounding a drive center cut. Also tee boxes that are not well maintained and it feels like you are teeing off from the rough. No difference between the fairway and the rough. Par 5s under 500 yards.

[Golfunaddict]

[quote name='vballer08' timestamp='1303955048' post='3191957']
Tree in the dead center of the fairway. no reason one should be punished for pounding a drive center cut. Also tee boxes that are not well maintained and it feels like you are teeing off from the rough. No difference between the fairway and the rough. Par 5s under 500 yards.
[/quote]

Another vote for poor tee boxes.
Golf is hard enuf without tee boxes that are not maintained/level or pointing the unsuspecting off in wrong directions.
Another is 1st holes that are unduly hard. Our course has changed our 1st hole dramatically and now if you get off the tee poorly you can easily double or triple on this par 4.
I believe that the 1st hole should serve as a kind of warmup for the round not a penal test right off the getgo.

[hitsalittle]

Nicklaus greens from early in his design career - 6 distinct levels, each about 30 square feet in size (ok, that's an exaggeration, you get the point), and each one is separated by 2 feet of elevation change that I can't possibly understand how they mow it, it's so steep.

ALL arthur hills designs - there's one course in Michigan (Hawkshead or hawksview, can't remember which is the actual name), where everything is good until you get to the 18th green and there's a VW minibus buried in the green...he always ruins it somehow.