Loft & Length of Classic Macgregors

[astamm8]

I'm trying to figure out the "standard" loft and length of MacGregors from the Mid 50s or so.

 

For length I think it's:

 

1 43"

2 42.5"

3 42"

4 41.5

 

1 39"

2 38.5"

3 38"

4 37.5"

5 37"

6 36.5"

 

But, I'm not sure when it changes from 1/2" increments. And, I'd also like to get the lofts.

 

So, if anybody's got any info, I'd appreciated it.

 

Thanks!

[robert horneman]

You are correct on the lengths.

Traditional lofts were:
1-17*
2-20*
Then 4* increments thru the SW @ 56*

[PKMillerJr]

[quote name='robert horneman' timestamp='1323699412' post='3927411']
You are correct on the lengths.

Traditional lofts were:
1-17*
2-20*
Then 4* increments thru the SW @ 56*
[/quote]

Are you sure about this? These specs were PowerBilts for sure (maybe with the exception of the SW). I have NEVER seen MacGregor publish specs on their irons during the early years.

[Shallowface]

[quote name='PKMillerJr' timestamp='1323699792' post='3927435']
[quote name='robert horneman' timestamp='1323699412' post='3927411']
You are correct on the lengths.

Traditional lofts were:
1-17*
2-20*
Then 4* increments thru the SW @ 56*
[/quote]

Are you sure about this? These specs were PowerBilts for sure (maybe with the exception of the SW). I have NEVER seen MacGregor publish specs on their irons during the early years.
[/quote]

I haven't either, but if it isn't right on the money it's probably very close. Companies didn't discover the marketing possibilities of jacking up the lofts until much later.

[freddiec]

Andy, I just measured my M75W set from 1954. Shaft and grips are all original.
Driver 43 Inches
2 Wood 42 7/8ths
3 Wood 42 1/8th.
4 Wood couldn't find my M75 4 Wood, My M85 Orig 4 wood is 41.5 inches long. Hope this helps some.

[Bella Woods]

astamm8:

Standard is subjective...but I think it would go like this:

MacGregor did post club lengths in their catalogs - but only
only "set starting" lengths for driver and 2 iron. 43" (some
models 42 1/2") for the driver. 38 1/2" (some models 39" and
some 38") for the 2 iron.

In general (for standard men) for 1950s -

Driver - 11 degree - 43"
2 wood - 13 degree - 42 3/4"
3 wood - 16 degree - 42 1/2"
4 wood - 19 degree - 42"
5 wood - 22 degree - 42" (or 41 3/4")

Irons - 5 iron 37" with 1/2" increments up and down the set.
this changed with the 9 iron - 9 iron, PW & SW same length,
but I think that changed at some point also to only PW & SW
same length.

But - you could order what you wanted from almost all of the
big companies.

I think robert horneman is pretty close on the lofts - but
again - could be custom/special ordered differently.

I bet Charley has info/experience on this subject.

[PKMillerJr]

[quote name='Bella Woods' timestamp='1323732044' post='3929945']
astamm8:

Standard is subjective...but I think it would go like this:

MacGregor did post club lengths in their catalogs - but only
only "set starting" lengths for driver and 2 iron. 43" (some
models 42 1/2") for the driver. 38 1/2" (some models 39" and
some 38") for the 2 iron.

In general (for standard men) for 1950s -

Driver - 11 degree - 43"
2 wood - 13 degree - 42 3/4"
3 wood - 16 degree - 42 1/2"
4 wood - 19 degree - 42"
5 wood - 22 degree - 42" (or 41 3/4")

Irons - 5 iron 37" with 1/2" increments up and down the set.
this changed with the 9 iron - 9 iron, PW & SW same length,
but I think that changed at some point also to only PW & SW
same length.

But - you could order what you wanted from almost all of the
big companies.

I think robert horneman is pretty close on the lofts - but
again - could be custom/special ordered differently.

I bet Charley has info/experience on this subject.
[/quote]

I have the catalog reprints. Lofts (irons) not listed til much later. Lengths were listed.

[astamm8]

Interesting 1/2" all the way to the 9 and then no change. I'd have guessed a change to 1/4" increments.

So 9, P, and S were all 35".

I'm hoping Charley chimes in!

[Bella Woods]

[quote name='astamm8' timestamp='1323739872' post='3930691']
Interesting 1/2" all the way to the 9 and then no change. I'd have guessed a change to 1/4" increments.

So 9, P, and S were all 35".

I'm hoping Charley chimes in!
[/quote]

Yes - 9 iron, PW and SW were all 35" at one point - and not just MacGregor. I am not sure when the 9 iron
length norm became 1/2" longer than the PW & SW - but it did at some point, and still is today I believe.

You know - speaking of the 1/2" increment progressive length change in iron clubs - I think this may
have been a result of the swingweighting process when it started in the 1930s (in general). Re: I
don't know if this existed in the old hickory club era. I think clubs may have been made back then for the
type of shot they were intended to hit - with no standard length, weight etc.

[xgolfx]

[quote name='Bella Woods' timestamp='1323744388' post='3931159']
[quote name='astamm8' timestamp='1323739872' post='3930691']
Interesting 1/2" all the way to the 9 and then no change. I'd have guessed a change to 1/4" increments.

So 9, P, and S were all 35".

I'm hoping Charley chimes in!
[/quote]

Yes - 9 iron, PW and SW were all 35" at one point - and not just MacGregor. I am not sure when the 9 iron
length norm became 1/2" longer than the PW & SW - but it did at some point, and still is today I believe.

You know - speaking of the 1/2" increment progressive length change in iron clubs - I think this may
have been a result of the swingweighting process when it started in the 1930s (in general). Re: I
don't know if this existed in the old hickory club era. I think clubs may have been made back then for the
type of shot they were intended to hit - with no standard length, weight etc.
[/quote]


SPECS FOR. TOMMY ARMOUR. AT2W FOR 1961




DRIVER. 43. BRASSIE. 423/4. SPOON42. CLEEK 41 1/2


Lie. 53. 53. 54. 541/2



Lofts. 11. 14. 151/2. 181/2


CHARLEY PENNA

[PKMillerJr]

[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1323752931' post='3931773']
[quote name='Bella Woods' timestamp='1323744388' post='3931159']
[quote name='astamm8' timestamp='1323739872' post='3930691']
Interesting 1/2" all the way to the 9 and then no change. I'd have guessed a change to 1/4" increments.

So 9, P, and S were all 35".

I'm hoping Charley chimes in!
[/quote]

Yes - 9 iron, PW and SW were all 35" at one point - and not just MacGregor. I am not sure when the 9 iron
length norm became 1/2" longer than the PW & SW - but it did at some point, and still is today I believe.

You know - speaking of the 1/2" increment progressive length change in iron clubs - I think this may
have been a result of the swingweighting process when it started in the 1930s (in general). Re: I
don't know if this existed in the old hickory club era. I think clubs may have been made back then for the
type of shot they were intended to hit - with no standard length, weight etc.
[/quote]


SPECS FOR. TOMMY ARMOUR. AT2W FOR 1961




DRIVER. 43. BRASSIE. 423/4. SPOON42. CLEEK 41 1/2


Lie. 53. 53. 54. 541/2



Lofts. 11. 14. 151/2. 181/2


CHARLEY PENNA
[/quote]

Charlie:

Any idea on the iron lofts?

[xgolfx]

1961. T


TOMMY ARMOUR. IRONS

381/2. 2 IRON. BALANCE TO MATCH

CHARLEY PENNA

[astamm8]

Charley,

Thanks for the input! Do you have info on iron lofts?

[xgolfx]

[quote name='astamm8' timestamp='1323797389' post='3933387']
Charley,

Thanks for the input! Do you have info on iron lofts?
[/quote]



I PRESUME U ARE NOT SERIOUS ABOUT LOFT. THERE WERE NO STANDARD LOFTS FOR IRONS. JUST AS TODAY A PING
FIVE IRON IS NOT THE SAME AS A MIZUNO CALLAWAY OR WILSON. LOFT ALSO CHANGES ITH THE LENGTH OF THE GOLF CLUB IN IRONS . STATIC LOFT AND PLAYING LOFT ARE OFTEN VERY DIFFERENT. SHAFTFLEX CHANGES WHEN THE GRIP
IS CHOKED UP. YOU COULD ORDER LOFTS WITH SPECIAL ORDER. IE: you could request a two iron with a one iron loft.

CHARLEY PENNA

[astamm8]

Charley,

I realize that's true, but was there not a "standard." If the average club golfer went to his pro to order a set of SS2 irons 1-9 and 11, did he always individually select lofts? Wasn't there a standard that was common and it was more of a special order to get away from that?

[PKMillerJr]

[quote name='astamm8' timestamp='1323836672' post='3936623']
Charley,

I realize that's true, but was there not a "standard." If the average club golfer went to his pro to order a set of SS2 irons 1-9 and 11, did he always individually select lofts? Wasn't there a standard that was common and it was more of a special order to get away from that?
[/quote]

Wilon specs were:

2-19, 3-23, 4-27, 5-31, 6-35, 7-39, 8-43, 9-47, PW-51, SW-55.

Powerbilt specs were:

1-17, 2-20, 3-24, 4-28, 5-32, 6-36, 7-40, 8-44, 9-48, PW-52. Not sure on SW but I think it was 58.

[astamm8]

Thanks PKMillerJr! That's very helpful.

Are the lengths for Wilson and PowerBilt the same as Mac or different?




[quote name='PKMillerJr' timestamp='1323836999' post='3936647']
[quote name='astamm8' timestamp='1323836672' post='3936623']
Charley,

I realize that's true, but was there not a "standard." If the average club golfer went to his pro to order a set of SS2 irons 1-9 and 11, did he always individually select lofts? Wasn't there a standard that was common and it was more of a special order to get away from that?
[/quote]

Wilon specs were:

2-19, 3-23, 4-27, 5-31, 6-35, 7-39, 8-43, 9-47, PW-51, SW-55.

Powerbilt specs were:

1-17, 2-20, 3-24, 4-28, 5-32, 6-36, 7-40, 8-44, 9-48, PW-52. Not sure on SW but I think it was 58.
[/quote]

[PKMillerJr]

[quote name='astamm8' timestamp='1323868071' post='3937497']
Thanks PKMillerJr! That's very helpful.

Are the lengths for Wilson and PowerBilt the same as Mac or different?




[quote name='PKMillerJr' timestamp='1323836999' post='3936647']
[quote name='astamm8' timestamp='1323836672' post='3936623']
Charley,

I realize that's true, but was there not a "standard." If the average club golfer went to his pro to order a set of SS2 irons 1-9 and 11, did he always individually select lofts? Wasn't there a standard that was common and it was more of a special order to get away from that?
[/quote]

Wilon specs were:

2-19, 3-23, 4-27, 5-31, 6-35, 7-39, 8-43, 9-47, PW-51, SW-55.

Powerbilt specs were:

1-17, 2-20, 3-24, 4-28, 5-32, 6-36, 7-40, 8-44, 9-48, PW-52. Not sure on SW but I think it was 58.
[/quote]
[/quote]

I will have to pull my books and look. Any particular time frame that you want the specs on?

[astamm8]

Ideally Mid 50s to early 60s.

[PKMillerJr]

[quote name='astamm8' timestamp='1323872376' post='3937731']
Ideally Mid 50s to early 60s.
[/quote]

MacGregor:

1955: M85T 38.5" (assuming this means 2 iron, M89 39" -- All "MT" Tourney irons priced @ $129.50 for set of 9 (2-9 & SI), Catalog does not list lengths of individual irons for 1955.

1960: Tommy Armour SS1:
2- 38 1/2, 3- 38, 4- 37.5, 5- 37, 6- 36.5, 7- 36, 8- 35 3/4, 9- 35 1/2, 11- 35, DS - 35. No 10 iron listed. DS stood for Dirt & Sand.

[xgolfx]

[quote name='PKMillerJr' timestamp='1323875277' post='3937963']
[quote name='astamm8' timestamp='1323872376' post='3937731']
Ideally Mid 50s to early 60s.
[/quote]

MacGregor:

1955: M85T 38.5" (assuming this means 2 iron, M89 39" -- All "MT" Tourney irons priced @ $129.50 for set of 9 (2-9 & SI), Catalog does not list lengths of individual irons for 1955.

1960: Tommy Armour SS1:
2- 38 1/2, 3- 38, 4- 37.5, 5- 37, 6- 36.5, 7- 36, 8- 35 3/4, 9- 35 1/2, 11- 35, DS - 35. No 10 iron listed. DS stood for Dirt & Sand.
[/quote]


Ds stood for. Double service which was previously stamped on wedges

CHARLEY PENNA

[rex235]

PK-

Since sets during this period did not include a pitching wedge, to my knowledge MacGregor "DS" wedge is short for either Dual Service or Double Service, for pitching and sand wedge.

Of course, Charley would be an authority on the abbreviation.

THANKS

[xgolfx]

here is tp spec sheet for 1961 mt irons bottom line says double service. you willnot see lofts. i doubt you will find lofts in print anywhere. please unsderstand that macgregor was more refined than any other manufacturer at the time. the harperized finish was named for ace harper who did the operation i believe. thr pencil notes are tp's

CHARLEY PENNA[attachment=949421:Image (29).jpg]

[astamm8]

Charley,

That's wonderful thank you.

D-3 is a little heavier than I would have guessed.

[freddiec]

Mr. Penna,

The information you continue to provide us here as well as other sections of the forum are invalueable and very much appreciated. I can't think of many others that have the knowledge and experience as you and willing to share it. Thank you!

Fred

[xgolfx]

[quote name='freddiec' timestamp='1323882778' post='3938581']
Mr. Penna,

The information you continue to provide us here as well as other sections of the forum are invalueable and very much appreciated. I can't think of many others that have the knowledge and experience as you and willing to share it. Thank you!

Fred
[/quote]

I think too many of you think that Kaplan is dogma
Most of the clubs I have kept were never in the catalogs he merely copied


U ain't seen NUTIN yet!

CHARLEY PENNA

[freddiec]

I can't wait to see NUTIN.

[rex235]

[quote name='freddiec' timestamp='1323891235' post='3939343']
I can't wait to see NUTIN.
[/quote]


[b]+1[/b]

[PKMillerJr]

[quote name='rex235' timestamp='1323877773' post='3938175']
PK-

Since sets during this period did not include a pitching wedge, to my knowledge MacGregor "DS" wedge is short for either Dual Service or Double Service, for pitching and sand wedge.

Of course, Charley would be an authority on the abbreviation.

THANKS
[/quote]

He's probably right. I will have to check my info but I assumed that DS was dirt and sand. I still do not understand why MacGregor went from 9 to DS to 11 and never had anything called a 10. Powerbilt used 10 or PW depending on what year it was. If anyone knows why this was I would be interested. Catalogs just list the clubs but do not give the rationale. I will look at my info and see what is listed for the DS.

[PKMillerJr]

[quote name='freddiec' timestamp='1323891235' post='3939343']
I can't wait to see NUTIN.
[/quote]

+1. Love to see the stuff.