do spine and floing have a real effect?

[akiracornell]

I understand the theory after looking into it. My question is has anyone done blind studies to see if it creates more consistency or if human error is more consistent than the force a misaligned spine would have on club during the swing.

Theoretically most peoples swing rotates the shaft 180* from start to finish. If the swing was straight forward and straight back in linear fashion without open and closing i may see some more merit. But the golf swing is under 180 degrees rotation start to finish and every club in the bag is swung on a slightly different plane. Longer clubs are on a flatter plane than shorter clubs. What im getting at is could it be more of a placebo effect to where mentally your knowing all your clubs should technically exert the same force at the same angle while loading and releasing and your more in tune with loading, realesing, and rotation of the hands? Or is this for real?

 

[akiracornell]

I just mean that there are so many other inconsistancies. Footwork, alignment, grip pressure, and so on. Even the pros get out of wack. Im probably gone get my stuff spine and flo anyway if i can afford it. But you know.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='akiracornell' timestamp='1343732374' post='5382938']
I understand the theory after looking into it. My question is has anyone done blind studies to see if it creates more consistency or if human error is more consistent than the force a misaligned spine would have on club during the swing.
Theoretically most peoples swing rotates the shaft 180* from start to finish. If the swing was straight forward and straight back in linear fashion without open and closing i may see some more merit. But the golf swing is under 180 degrees rotation start to finish and every club in the bag is swung on a slightly different plane. Longer clubs are on a flatter plane than shorter clubs. What im getting at is could it be more of a placebo effect to where mentally your knowing all your clubs should technically exert the same force at the same angle while loading and releasing and your more in tune with loading, realesing, and rotation of the hands? Or is this for real?
[/quote]

My opinion?

Some minor effect with a Driver, although many equipment contracts PGA Tour Players have, prohibit "spining" or "FLO". To my knowledge, not a single PGA Touring Pro has talked about it or said his shafts have been "FLO'd" ("spining" means nothing). Of course, now that "adjustable drivers" are the norm, what manufacturer would want customers thinking their shaft will get out of whack, if they adjust it?

SST PURE who's the one making the most money off of this, does a particularly good job at the process. To date, they have not released a single piece of scientific data to support their contention that FLO makes a difference.

Someone on here is likely to eventually post some supposed "data", that a certain clubmaker from Maine generated from "1000's of golfers", that proves Spining/FLO makes a huge difference. I can assure you, that supposed testing never took place and it was a figment of someone's imagination.

In years gone past, the frequency (stiffness) of many Graphite shafts was hugely inconsistent and spining/FLO could be used to effect shaft feel. Most Graphite shafts are more consistent these days and seldom have such variation.

More than you ever wanted to know about FLO: http://www.tutelman.com/golf/shafts/FLOphysics.php

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

[wrmiller]

On my driver, I saw my impact area on the face go from a half-dollar to about a quarter, so I inferred that placing the S1 axis in the 12 o'clock position stabilized shaft droop through impact. No imperical data to support that, other than the reduction is size of the impacts on the face, which is good enough for me.

Not sure it is worth it on irons shafts, but hey, it's my own personal time and I like working on my clubs, so I do what I want. I'm not a pro, and could care less what they do...

[golfingchuck]

[quote name='wrmiller' timestamp='1343750020' post='5384112']
On my driver, I saw my impact area on the face go from a half-dollar to about a quarter, so I inferred that placing the S1 axis in the 12 o'clock position stabilized shaft droop through impact. No imperical data to support that, other than the reduction is size of the impacts on the face, which is good enough for me.

Not sure it is worth it on irons shafts, but hey, it's my own personal time and I like working on my clubs, so I do what I want. I'm not a pro, and could care less what they do...
[/quote]This! I hope Santa brings me the all in one golf club repair package for Christmas so I can spine and flo all my clubs that I buy or currently have. There may be no absolute proof that it works but hell it can't hurt!

[Shaftology]

We FLO all of our shafts as a matter of course. Over the last several years, shafts have become more consistent so the wild variations in spine index (variation of cpm around all 360 degrees of shaft rotation) has dropped substantially. What I believe this means is that almost all premium shafts are so consistent that FLO will not do a lot to improve consistency of contact and improve accuracy and distance. The most benefit will come with the 2nd tier of shafts that have a significant spine index and FLO is very apparent when building a club. In irons, FLO is very important in lightweight steel (sub 100 gr) IMO as these shafts can be very inconsistent.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='Shaftology' timestamp='1347420482' post='5627199']
We FLO all of our shafts as a matter of course. Over the last several years, shafts have become more consistent so the wild variations in spine index (variation of cpm around all 360 degrees of shaft rotation) has dropped substantially. What I believe this means is that almost all premium shafts are so consistent that FLO will not do a lot to improve consistency of contact and improve accuracy and distance. The most benefit will come with the 2nd tier of shafts that have a significant spine index and FLO is very apparent when building a club. In irons, FLO is very important in lightweight steel (sub 100 gr) IMO as these shafts can be very inconsistent.
[/quote]

I can probably get away with positing this, when you can't

The Shaftology Website probably has more good information on shafts and shaft selection, than most any website around ... particularly for someone considering Nippon Shafts, which typically run very consistent in my opinion.

& as stated before, I clearly belong to the same group that believes the shafts of the last 10 years, are no where near as inconsistent as shafts in the 90's.

[Kadin 25]

If I recall correctly Tom Wishon states in his book "The Search for The Perfect Golf Club" that the higher quality shaft makers find a stable plane of bending before the shaft is painted and logoed.
He also references a forum called Spine Talk if your looking for more detailed information.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='Kadin 25' timestamp='1347451817' post='5628121']
If I recall correctly Tom Wishon states in his book "The Search for The Perfect Golf Club" that the higher quality shaft makers find a stable plane of bending before the shaft is painted and logoed.
He also references a forum called Spine Talk if your looking for more detailed information.
[/quote]

All Aerotech shafts are marked with a "blue line" and the labels are attached based on that location. It's apparently a manufacturing spine, but the shafts are so consistent, they'll FLO at almost any orientation.

[johnnythunders]

I spined/flowed in the 90's and up to a few years ago. The premium aftermarket shafts of today are ususally pretty close. I still do it if someone wants it but I don't do it on my own clubs anymore. EOM's are all over the place. I don't play light steel so I can't comment.

[78blades]

I still spine my shafts and put the spine at the 12:00 o'clock position. For me i'll spine, especially graphite and soft stepped shafts, but that just me. I came from sports where one tweaked constantly with equipment; it seems to endear and personalize it more.
IMO it really doesn't make that big of difference to the vast majority of golfers, including myself. You need to have at least somewhat of a consistent swing before much of this will even begin to make any differences at all.

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='akiracornell' timestamp='1343732374' post='5382938']
I understand the theory after looking into it. My question is has anyone done blind studies to see if it creates more consistency or if human error is more consistent than the force a misaligned spine would have on club during the swing.
Theoretically most peoples swing rotates the shaft 180* from start to finish. If the swing was straight forward and straight back in linear fashion without open and closing i may see some more merit. But the golf swing is under 180 degrees rotation start to finish and every club in the bag is swung on a slightly different plane. Longer clubs are on a flatter plane than shorter clubs. What im getting at is could it be more of a placebo effect to where mentally your knowing all your clubs should technically exert the same force at the same angle while loading and releasing and your more in tune with loading, realesing, and rotation of the hands? Or is this for real?
[/quote]

IMHO, it's no different than having the tire dealer inflate you tires with pure nitrogen. Nothing but a sales gimmick.

BTW, air is 80% Nitrogen.

BT

[NMBob]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1343736936' post='5383104']
[quote name='akiracornell' timestamp='1343732374' post='5382938']
I understand the theory after looking into it. My question is has anyone done blind studies to see if it creates more consistency or if human error is more consistent than the force a misaligned spine would have on club during the swing.
Theoretically most peoples swing rotates the shaft 180* from start to finish. If the swing was straight forward and straight back in linear fashion without open and closing i may see some more merit. But the golf swing is under 180 degrees rotation start to finish and every club in the bag is swung on a slightly different plane. Longer clubs are on a flatter plane than shorter clubs. What im getting at is could it be more of a placebo effect to where mentally your knowing all your clubs should technically exert the same force at the same angle while loading and releasing and your more in tune with loading, realesing, and rotation of the hands? Or is this for real?
[/quote]

My opinion?

Some minor effect with a Driver, although many equipment contracts PGA Tour Players have, prohibit "spining" or "FLO". To my knowledge, not a single PGA Touring Pro has talked about it or said his shafts have been "FLO'd" ("spining" means nothing). Of course, now that "adjustable drivers" are the norm, what manufacturer would want customers thinking their shaft will get out of whack, if they adjust it?

SST PURE who's the one making the most money off of this, does a particularly good job at the process. To date, they have not released a single piece of scientific data to support their contention that FLO makes a difference.

Someone on here is likely to eventually post some supposed "data", that a certain clubmaker from Maine generated from "1000's of golfers", that proves Spining/FLO makes a huge difference. I can assure you, that supposed testing never took place and it was a figment of someone's imagination.

In years gone past, the frequency (stiffness) of many Graphite shafts was hugely inconsistent and spining/FLO could be used to effect shaft feel. Most Graphite shafts are more consistent these days and seldom have such variation.

More than you ever wanted to know about FLO: [url="http://www.tutelman.com/golf/shafts/FLOphysics.php"]http://www.tutelman..../FLOphysics.php[/url]

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.
[/quote]


wow, folks who read 4gea 7 years ago or more know exactly who this guy is. What information is it that you have to suggest that a clubmaker and parts retailor and one of the primary sponsors at 4gea and respected contributors, totally fabricated the story of the test clubs on his driving range?

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

Like a lot of claims about golf equipment, it has an effect directly proportional to the extent that the golfer believes it has an effect.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='NMBob' timestamp='1354295953' post='6000419']

wow, folks who read 4gea 7 years ago or more know exactly who this guy is. What information is it that you have to suggest that a clubmaker and parts retailor and one of the primary sponsors at 4gea and respected contributors, totally fabricated the story of the test clubs on his driving range?
[/quote]

Because the person of whom you speak, is one biggest phony, baloney BS'ers I've ever met in my entire life. I was at his "World Wide Headquarters" ... which was actually in his cellar. I saw his "fully equipped shop & fitting studio" ... which would have fit in the trunk of a small car. I visited the "driving range" he supposedly owned, where he supposedly "tested 1000's of golfers to determine the effects of spining" ... which never happened.

& if you have any other questions about his credibility & professionalism, go over to 4GEA and read the thread about the clubs he shafted for me ... that took 6 months and 50 or more phone calls and emails, before I finally got them back from him.

[NMBob]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1354317804' post='6002203']
[quote name='NMBob' timestamp='1354295953' post='6000419']
wow, folks who read 4gea 7 years ago or more know exactly who this guy is. What information is it that you have to suggest that a clubmaker and parts retailor and one of the primary sponsors at 4gea and respected contributors, totally fabricated the story of the test clubs on his driving range?
[/quote]

Because the person of whom you speak, is one biggest phony, baloney BS'ers I've ever met in my entire life. I was at his "World Wide Headquarters" ... which was actually in his cellar. I saw his "fully equipped shop & fitting studio" ... which would have fit in the trunk of a small car. I visited the "driving range" he supposedly owned, where he supposedly "tested 1000's of golfers to determine the effects of spining" ... which never happened.

& if you have any other questions about his credibility & professionalism, go over to 4GEA and read the thread about the clubs he shafted for me ... that took 6 months and 50 or more phone calls and emails, before I finally got them back from him.
[/quote]

wow, thats astounding.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='NMBob' timestamp='1354408402' post='6005747']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1354317804' post='6002203']
[quote name='NMBob' timestamp='1354295953' post='6000419']
wow, folks who read 4gea 7 years ago or more know exactly who this guy is. What information is it that you have to suggest that a clubmaker and parts retailor and one of the primary sponsors at 4gea and respected contributors, totally fabricated the story of the test clubs on his driving range?
[/quote]

Because the person of whom you speak, is one biggest phony, baloney BS'ers I've ever met in my entire life. I was at his "World Wide Headquarters" ... which was actually in his cellar. I saw his "fully equipped shop & fitting studio" ... which would have fit in the trunk of a small car. I visited the "driving range" he supposedly owned, where he supposedly "tested 1000's of golfers to determine the effects of spining" ... which never happened.

& if you have any other questions about his credibility & professionalism, go over to 4GEA and read the thread about the clubs he shafted for me ... that took 6 months and 50 or more phone calls and emails, before I finally got them back from him.
[/quote]

wow, thats astounding.
[/quote]

It was astounding to me, too. Unfortunately, he simply proved the old adage that "you can be anyone you want on the Internet".

[Llortamaisey]

[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1354210834' post='5995395']

IMHO, it's no different than having the tire dealer inflate you tires with pure nitrogen. Nothing but a sales gimmick.

BTW, air is 80% Nitrogen.

BT
[/quote]

Wow, do you get up charged for having Nitrogen in your tires? Places around me do it for free. How much extra do they charge? That would be the biggest sales gimmick even if they charged $1 extra.

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='Llortamaisey' timestamp='1354455357' post='6007357']
[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1354210834' post='5995395']
IMHO, it's no different than having the tire dealer inflate you tires with pure nitrogen. Nothing but a sales gimmick.

BTW, air is 80% Nitrogen.

BT
[/quote]

Wow, do you get up charged for having Nitrogen in your tires? Places around me do it for free. How much extra do they charge? That would be the biggest sales gimmick even if they charged $1 extra.
[/quote]

It's like $5 here.

BT

[nhs99v]

IMHO - how could it hurt? I look to take inconsistencies out of the final build and for me, if I can align the spines then flo them and then orientate them in a consistent manner, that has to help the end result.

Golf is about being as consistent as possible and if you take care of as many inconsistencies as possible, then you stand a better chance.

No-one is saying you will suddenly hit the ball like Rory.

I think this is a relatively simple procedure that has to help. It certainly can't do any harm.

I don't charge extra for it - its just something I do as part of the build.

[Colej]

[quote name='nhs99v' timestamp='1356815143' post='6134939']
IMHO - how could it hurt? I look to take inconsistencies out of the final build and for me, if I can align the spines then flo them and then orientate them in a consistent manner, that has to help the end result.

Golf is about being as consistent as possible and if you take care of as many inconsistencies as possible, then you stand a better chance.

No-one is saying you will suddenly hit the ball like Rory.

I think this is a relatively simple procedure that has to help. It certainly can't do any harm.

I don't charge extra for it - its just something I do as part of the build.
[/quote]

I feel the same way and do the same thing with my iron set builds

[billybaroo]

I'll see if I can find the post I made several years back where I looked at the "data" posted buy one of the snake oil vendors, their own website data disproved their product. Well done!!