Are Today's Golf Courses Unfair to the Average Golfer?

[jldavis73]

Course design [i]should [/i]be dependant on your customer base. If you're aiming for general public, reasonable fee, then you better make it accessible and fun. If you're under the direction of a developer with a monied club that desires a top-tier challenge, make it as difficult as the budget allows. Problems arise when designers don't match the layout to the player. Keep this in mind, too...the golf courses inventory is rounds played. Fewer rounds, higher fee. What type of design will allow greater "production"? Is your typical customer willing and able to pay a premium for your course? Will you need to increase rounds played?

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355347040' post='6058477']
[quote name='James Thomas' timestamp='1355322814' post='6056107']
And, if I may, let me quote Harvey Penick, in his quote of Dr. Alister Mackenzie (designer of Augusta Nat'l & Cypress Point).

"Remember that golf is a game and no player ever gets any fun in searching for lost balls."

"Most courses have too many bunkers. They should be constructed from a strategical and not a penal point of view."
[/quote]

James, what does Dr. Alister Mackenzie know? :-)
[/quote]

Donald Ross was the same, caddies at Pinehurst #2 will clean all of the balls out of your bag if it is too heavy because they say you only need one ball to play the course. This may be an exaggeration because there are a couple of opportunities to lose balls, but anyone with any game can work their way around the course assuming they can chip and putt a bit. OTOH a scratch player will struggle to shoot their best round there, but a average hack can get around pretty quickly, not spend all day hunting for balls, not shoot his best round but not have a career worst either. The difficulties of this course are very subtle, where the bunkers are placed, the angles into the green.

[Sean2]

[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1355350074' post='6058777']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355347040' post='6058477']
[quote name='James Thomas' timestamp='1355322814' post='6056107']
And, if I may, let me quote Harvey Penick, in his quote of Dr. Alister Mackenzie (designer of Augusta Nat'l & Cypress Point).

"Remember that golf is a game and no player ever gets any fun in searching for lost balls."

"Most courses have too many bunkers. They should be constructed from a strategical and not a penal point of view."
[/quote]

James, what does Dr. Alister Mackenzie know? :-)
[/quote]

Donald Ross was the same, caddies at Pinehurst #2 will clean all of the balls out of your bag if it is too heavy because they say you only need one ball to play the course. This may be an exaggeration because there are a couple of opportunities to lose balls, but anyone with any game can work their way around the course assuming they can chip and putt a bit. OTOH a scratch player will struggle to shoot their best round there, but a average hack can get around pretty quickly, not spend all day hunting for balls, not shoot his best round but not have a career worst either. The difficulties of this course are very subtle, where the bunkers are placed, the angles into the green.
[/quote]

I really enjoy playing Donald Ross designed golf courses for the very reasons you articulate. Fortunately there are a number in my area. The man was a genius.

[Sean2]

[quote name='jldavis73' timestamp='1355349495' post='6058719']
Course design [i]should [/i]be dependant on your customer base. If you're aiming for general public, reasonable fee, then you better make it accessible and fun. If you're under the direction of a developer with a monied club that desires a top-tier challenge, make it as difficult as the budget allows. Problems arise when designers don't match the layout to the player. Keep this in mind, too...the golf courses inventory is rounds played. Fewer rounds, higher fee. What type of design will allow greater "production"? Is your typical customer willing and able to pay a premium for your course? Will you need to increase rounds played?
[/quote]

Exactly. Higher fees can also mean fewer players as well. "If you build it they will come." Not necessarily. :-)

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355342641' post='6058069']
[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1355276860' post='6054035']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355273711' post='6053673']
I feel for those that can't... and proud of those that persist and overcome. But have nothing for those that can, but don't, opting for the world to be made easier around them. Its a frame of mind Sean2. I am nearing 65 with bad knees, and fight every day to just maintain, as my body naturally deteriorates, despite going to the gym every other day since HS. I don't give in or give up. That's the reason why I use the word whining. I will be fighting till the day I die, and want to go out that way.

PS - Yes, it's a game, but fighting obstacles to stay in the game is what life is about.
[/quote]

That's great, and I don't disagree with those comments. You must realize, however, that the two greatest problems facing golf today are the expense to play and the time it takes to play, both of which can be attributed (at least in part) to the fact that most new golf courses are far too expensive to maintain and too difficult for the people that play them. The cost of the expanse of land needed to create these courses, the excessive chemicals needed to make them look like Augusta year round, and to maintain all the hazards, including bunkers, fescue, etc., are necessarily passed on to the consumer, and the difficulty of the 7,000 yard, 130 slope, 10+ stimp course that's left makes it such that you can't leave your home, play golf, and get back in 6 hours. Most agree that's a problem for the future of this great game.
[/quote]

I realize golf is expensive and takes time, but don't care about either, because I can afford both. I am well aware of golf course maintenance and design costs too, having sat on the Greens committee of my last club, and fortunate to have talked with designers regarding course changes. I actually have experience to speak from vs conjecture.

Fact; golf is not like playing Solitaire on a desk or Horse in the driveway, between meetings or baby feedings; its time consuming. Making courses easier for those that don't want to or can't put in the time or spend the money is not the answer. By and large, they are not committed to the sport. Man is the problem. Man thinks he's "entitled" to play golf, and "entitled" to costs that fit his pocketbook; he should be able to squeeze in 18 in 3hrs+ between meeting or kid activities, and so his wife will quit nagging "he's spending too much time at golf". He can dream all he wants, but its still pipe dreams for those that think golf will accommodate their wishes and entitlements... its an expensive sport, and lifestyle, like owning a horse ranch.

In general, "man" has lost much of his desire to measure-up, step-up and or take advantage of the opportunity in this great country. In other words, he doesn't care to commit or improve and climb in life so he can afford the time and costs needed to better his skills and enjoy all courses. He's also lost sight that his actions on any given day and or course affects others, again part of the entitled mindset.

Once again, golf is just an activity for most, that should fall below family and job. I did not take up golf till forty, after my business interests were well established, and didn't marry till later in life, to insure I could properly provide and had time to be a proactive father and contributing husband. I suppose what that means is, my judgment then afforded me now, my cake and eat it too.

Sure I can say I wish golf only took 3-4hrs, but it doesn't, thanks to more people attempting it; reason I always take 2-3 cigars along and enjoy the time looking at the scenery. My wife doesn't care how much or often I play, as she enjoys the game with her girlfriends too. Our son is out of the house, away at college, so I drive upwards of 1.5hrs to play 18 and drive home after. That means mostly 4.5-5hr rounds in CA & AZ + travel time. Do I like that NO, but I do enjoy driving fast, plus I know they don't design golf courses for my wishes; otherwise I would outlaw Kikuyu. It comes down to having to do what's necessary if I want to play courses that fit my eye and skill, that means spend the time. Time for the gym.. have a good day.
[/quote]

Again, well said.

[Imp]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355350226' post='6058799']
[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1355350074' post='6058777']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1355347040' post='6058477']
[quote name='James Thomas' timestamp='1355322814' post='6056107']
And, if I may, let me quote Harvey Penick, in his quote of Dr. Alister Mackenzie (designer of Augusta Nat'l & Cypress Point).

"Remember that golf is a game and no player ever gets any fun in searching for lost balls."

"Most courses have too many bunkers. They should be constructed from a strategical and not a penal point of view."
[/quote]

James, what does Dr. Alister Mackenzie know? :-)
[/quote]

Donald Ross was the same, caddies at Pinehurst #2 will clean all of the balls out of your bag if it is too heavy because they say you only need one ball to play the course. This may be an exaggeration because there are a couple of opportunities to lose balls, but anyone with any game can work their way around the course assuming they can chip and putt a bit. OTOH a scratch player will struggle to shoot their best round there, but a average hack can get around pretty quickly, not spend all day hunting for balls, not shoot his best round but not have a career worst either. The difficulties of this course are very subtle, where the bunkers are placed, the angles into the green.
[/quote]

I really enjoy playing Donald Ross designed golf courses for the very reasons you articulate. Fortunately there are a number in my area. The man was a genius.
[/quote]Except 4 at Shenny. That's my white whale. :unamused:

--KC

[Pepperturbo]

Paraphrasing, "so the average golfer can score better???". The label "average" keeps popping up, but now "average means he has a 16 index.. really?. How did that happen when all inclusive number of golfers in the US was estimated at 28M+ including kids. Anybody with a semblance of reasoning knows the lions share of 28M do not break a 115, nor do they play by the rules or hold indexes, plus play only a limited number of times per year. Research says public courses target people that play golf in excess of twenty times per year.

The average index is 15.6; his score is over 100; hits 0 greens in regulation, 11% of fairways, has 38.3 putts, 0 birdies, and 1.3 pars. I am not surprised average Joe wants to score better. I thought that was why OEM's were bombarding the market with SGI, GI clubs and forgiving woods; so he could score better and hit the ball farther, or at least think so. Oops, guess that's not working??? So now investors should look at him as their bread and butter customer, when he's the one that doesn't like to spend at the course, or can't afford increased green fees to cover new course's or redesigning old courses. He's also the one that doesn't want to spend much time at the course, due to family, and likes to play various courses too.

How do you expect long-term investors to build multimillion dollar "public" golf course's that require thousands in labor, materials and equipment monthly to maintain, when the above average golfer might show up once a week.. makes no fiscal sense. I haven't even mentioned the time it takes to play golf for the man that has a family at home, that doesn't want to stay away for 5hrs. As I said, rightfully, his priorities should be with his family and job, not golf. So, if his schedule allows, he should be willing to cope with what he faces. Not expect a slew of people to spend millions on him. What ever his issues are, new easier or redesigned courses will not keep naturally slow and poorly skilled golfers from being slow, and loosing balls.

Sure, the golf industry is facing attrition... but so are cycling, skiing, tennis and hiking, to name a few other sports, even Football and Basketball are fighting to attract customers. So, using cyclical attrition as an argument for changing course designs is poorly thought out. Sure some people walk away because the game is hard, others because of physical issues and still other folks for personal reason's. The predominate reason though is cost and time constraints, not difficulty or unfair.

If courses could be built without someone investing long term capital, and seeking return on his investment, I wouldn't have an issue with some easier courses showing up. But, that's possible. Neither is redesigning, as that costs considerable these days; which again influences higher green fees for the average golfer that only earns 95k per year. IMO golf is not for the man that has children and wife that doesn't work, but that might be a separate issue.

[KDMullins]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355361584' post='6059699']
IMO golf is not for the man that has children and wife that doesn't work, but that might be a separate issue.
[/quote]

Where do you get this stuff? Golf is not for men with families/children?

There would be no resorts, country clubs and golf as we know it in this country were it not for men with families shelling out cash to make these things go. Who do you think pays for all this stuff?

[Sean2]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1355372208' post='6060635']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355361584' post='6059699']
IMO golf is not for the man that has children and wife that doesn't work, but that might be a separate issue.
[/quote]

Where do you get this stuff? Golf is not for men with families/children?

There would be no resorts, country clubs and golf as we know it in this country were it not for men with families shelling out cash to make these things go. [b]Who do you think pays for all this stuff?[/b]
[/quote]

The stimulus package? :-)

The vast majority of golfers I know have families. Some have spouses that work, some don't.

[Bulle Rock Golf]

Last year we were named to Golf Digest's America's 75 Toughest Golf Courses, so I'll kind of speak towards that angle as I view it on a daily basis.

I would not say that courses are becoming too difficult for the average golfer, rather folks need to [u]just play from the appropriate sets of tees [/u](We have 5 sets stretching from 5,600 to a hulking 7,400 that is always halfway in to a breeze on/off the bay).

As a result of better equipment, people feel that because they have a RBZ driver or some Tiger Woods Nike Blades they should be playing from the Golds or Blues - whereas it would be much more enjoyable for them from the white tees.

[u]Courses are only too difficult for golfers if they make them too difficult for themselves[/u].

[kellygreen]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1355343951' post='6058173']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355342641' post='6058069']
I realize golf is expensive and takes time, but don't care about either, because I can afford both. I am well aware of golf course maintenance and design costs too, having sat on the Greens committee of my last club, and fortunate to have talked with designers regarding course changes. I actually have experience to speak from vs conjecture.

Fact; golf is not like playing Solitaire on a desk or Horse in the driveway, between meetings or baby feedings; its time consuming. Making courses easier for those that don't want to or can't put in the time or spend the money is not the answer. By and large, they are not committed to the sport. Man is the problem. Man thinks he's "entitled" to play golf, and "entitled" to costs that fit his pocketbook; he should be able to squeeze in 18 in 3hrs+ between meeting or kid activities, and so his wife will quit nagging "he's spending too much time at golf". He can dream all he wants, but its still pipe dreams for those that think golf will accommodate their wishes and entitlements... its an expensive sport, and lifestyle, like owning a horse ranch.

In general, "man" has lost much of his desire to measure-up, step-up and or take advantage of the opportunity in this great country. In other words, he doesn't care to commit or improve and climb in life so he can afford the time and costs needed to better his skills and enjoy all courses. He's also lost sight that his actions on any given day and or course affects others, again part of the entitled mindset.

Once again, golf is just an activity for most, that should fall below family and job. I did not take up golf till forty, after my business interests were well established, and didn't marry till later in life, to insure I could properly provide and had time to be a proactive father and contributing husband. I suppose what that means is, my judgment then afforded me now, my cake and eat it too.

Sure I can say I wish golf only took 3-4hrs, but it doesn't, thanks to more people attempting it; reason I always take 2-3 cigars along and enjoy the time looking at the scenery. My wife doesn't care how much or often I play, as she enjoys the game with her girlfriends too. Our son is out of the house, away at college, so I drive upwards of 1.5hrs to play 18 and drive home after. That means mostly 4.5-5hr rounds in CA & AZ + travel time. Do I like that NO, but I do enjoy driving fast, plus I know they don't design golf courses for my wishes; otherwise I would outlaw Kikuyu. It comes down to having to do what's necessary if I want to play courses that fit my eye and skill, that means spend the time. Time for the gym.. have a good day.
[/quote]

Wow. Not sure where to start with that so I won't.
[/quote]

Don't bother.

Some people's attitudes are just fundamentally exclusionary.

If they don't value inclusiveness, you aren't going to talk them into it.

[KYMAR]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1354229393' post='5997105']

Rosco, some folks don't have that luxury.[b] They can either play golf or practice, not both.[/b] And, depending on where they live the choice of courses they play may be limited. I'm not talking about the hard core golfer here...I'm talking about the [b]average[/b] golfer. :-)
[/quote]

Well written Sean. I understand the basic premise and i agree that some modern courses are very difficult. But I disagree that it's possible for them to be unfairly so.Mostly because in almost all of those circumstances other options exist. I think the issue lies within the bolded area above. All of the talk about how handicaps aren't lower, players are getting better and courses are getting harder is offset in many ways in our instant gratification culture.

2 16 HC "average" golfers. One has a quality lesson or two, practices what he is taught once or twice a week and eventually gets better a little at a time. The second golfer decides practice isn't worth it, never does it, doesn't take any lessons and shows up playing from the tips 15 times a summer and eventually relays his tales of woe about how hard golf is and he gives it up. You say some people don't have the luxury between practice and play. That's not true, it's a matter of choice. If an average golfer plays 4 times a month during the season. They absolutely have the choice to turn the 4 rounds at 50 bucks a piece into 3 rounds and 5 large buckets of balls. I don't understand the notion that golf should be unlike any other endeavor. Want to be a good piano player, juggler, race car driver, martial artist, speaker, knitter or bagpipe player? You have to practice.

People seem to think that since the average HC doesn't go down, NO ONES does. And that isn't true. Improvement for some is offset by the new or returning golfer and by those who worsen with age or less play when those averages are made. I have gotten a lot better in the last 4 years but I practice and play as often as possible. I don't just show up, stick a peg in the ground, expect to shoot 80 and blame the game or the golf course when I don't. A lot of the problems you describe are peoples false expectations built on a platform of "this should just be easier,course was just unfair" but 5 hours earlier as they took their warm up swings on the first tee it was "can you believe we got such a great tee time? Heard nothing but great things about this course, they had a nationwide stop here for years, We're playing the tips right you pansies? I'm going LOW fellas! get your wallets out"

if people are leaving the game because it's to difficult they are playing the wrong tees at the wrong courses, and they aren't practicing. In other words they, either out of ignorance or laziness, don't really care about the game. And I have no problem with guys who just like to get out every once in a while with their buddies and smack it around. In many ways i AM that guy so I get that completely. Golf needs new breed, orange clad, flat billed stud Am's and needs the cargo short wearing, 'whadya mean by stroke and distance' chop just the same. But the "well i don't play much anymore because it's just too hard these days" REALLY means, "Well i don't play much anymore because I didn't play from where I should be playing and frankly, i did absolutely nothing to get any better"

[pingman1]

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1355401454' post='6061499']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1354229393' post='5997105']
Rosco, some folks don't have that luxury.[b] They can either play golf or practice, not both.[/b] And, depending on where they live the choice of courses they play may be limited. I'm not talking about the hard core golfer here...I'm talking about the [b]average[/b] golfer. :-)
[/quote]

Well written Sean. I understand the basic premise and i agree that some modern courses are very difficult. But I disagree that it's possible for them to be unfairly so.Mostly because in almost all of those circumstances other options exist. I think the issue lies within the bolded area above. All of the talk about how handicaps aren't lower, players are getting better and courses are getting harder is offset in many ways in our instant gratification culture.

2 16 HC "average" golfers. One has a quality lesson or two, practices what he is taught once or twice a week and eventually gets better a little at a time. The second golfer decides practice isn't worth it, never does it, doesn't take any lessons and shows up playing from the tips 15 times a summer and eventually relays his tales of woe about how hard golf is and he gives it up. You say some people don't have the luxury between practice and play. That's not true, it's a matter of choice. If an average golfer plays 4 times a month during the season. They absolutely have the choice to turn the 4 rounds at 50 bucks a piece into 3 rounds and 5 large buckets of balls. I don't understand the notion that golf should be unlike any other endeavor. Want to be a good piano player, juggler, race car driver, martial artist, speaker, knitter or bagpipe player? You have to practice.

People seem to think that since the average HC doesn't go down, NO ONES does. And that isn't true. Improvement for some is offset by the new or returning golfer and by those who worsen with age or less play when those averages are made. I have gotten a lot better in the last 4 years but I practice and play as often as possible. I don't just show up, stick a peg in the ground, expect to shoot 80 and blame the game or the golf course when I don't. A lot of the problems you describe are peoples false expectations built on a platform of "this should just be easier,course was just unfair" but 5 hours earlier as they took their warm up swings on the first tee it was "can you believe we got such a great tee time? Heard nothing but great things about this course, they had a nationwide stop here for years, We're playing the tips right you pansies? I'm going LOW fellas! get your wallets out"

if people are leaving the game because it's to difficult they are playing the wrong tees at the wrong courses, and they aren't practicing. In other words they, either out of ignorance or laziness, don't really care about the game. And I have no problem with guys who just like to get out every once in a while with their buddies and smack it around. In many ways i AM that guy so I get that completely. Golf needs new breed, orange clad, flat billed stud Am's and needs the cargo short wearing, 'whadya mean by stroke and distance' chop just the same. But the "well i don't play much anymore because it's just too hard these days" REALLY means, "Well i don't play much anymore because I didn't play from where I should be playing and frankly, i did absolutely nothing to get any better"
[/quote]

+1,000,000! Extremely well written Kymar. It doesn't take a lot of time to show up a little early, hit a small bucket, putt a little before your tee time. ALSO PLAY THE TEE YOUR GAME DICTATES!

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1355401454' post='6061499']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1354229393' post='5997105']
Rosco, some folks don't have that luxury.[b] They can either play golf or practice, not both.[/b] And, depending on where they live the choice of courses they play may be limited. I'm not talking about the hard core golfer here...I'm talking about the [b]average[/b] golfer. :-)
[/quote]

Well written Sean. I understand the basic premise and i agree that some modern courses are very difficult. But I disagree that it's possible for them to be unfairly so.Mostly because in almost all of those circumstances other options exist. I think the issue lies within the bolded area above. All of the talk about how handicaps aren't lower, players are getting better and courses are getting harder is offset in many ways in our instant gratification culture.

2 16 HC "average" golfers. One has a quality lesson or two, practices what he is taught once or twice a week and eventually gets better a little at a time. The second golfer decides practice isn't worth it, never does it, doesn't take any lessons and shows up playing from the tips 15 times a summer and eventually relays his tales of woe about how hard golf is and he gives it up. You say some people don't have the luxury between practice and play. That's not true, it's a matter of choice. If an average golfer plays 4 times a month during the season. They absolutely have the choice to turn the 4 rounds at 50 bucks a piece into 3 rounds and 5 large buckets of balls. I don't understand the notion that golf should be unlike any other endeavor. Want to be a good piano player, juggler, race car driver, martial artist, speaker, knitter or bagpipe player? You have to practice.

People seem to think that since the average HC doesn't go down, NO ONES does. And that isn't true. Improvement for some is offset by the new or returning golfer and by those who worsen with age or less play when those averages are made. I have gotten a lot better in the last 4 years but I practice and play as often as possible. I don't just show up, stick a peg in the ground, expect to shoot 80 and blame the game or the golf course when I don't. A lot of the problems you describe are peoples false expectations built on a platform of "this should just be easier,course was just unfair" but 5 hours earlier as they took their warm up swings on the first tee it was "can you believe we got such a great tee time? Heard nothing but great things about this course, they had a nationwide stop here for years, We're playing the tips right you pansies? I'm going LOW fellas! get your wallets out"

if people are leaving the game because it's to difficult they are playing the wrong tees at the wrong courses, and they aren't practicing. In other words they, either out of ignorance or laziness, don't really care about the game. And I have no problem with guys who just like to get out every once in a while with their buddies and smack it around. In many ways i AM that guy so I get that completely. Golf needs new breed, orange clad, flat billed stud Am's and needs the cargo short wearing, 'whadya mean by stroke and distance' chop just the same. But the "well i don't play much anymore because it's just too hard these days" REALLY means, "Well i don't play much anymore because I didn't play from where I should be playing and frankly, i did absolutely nothing to get any better"
[/quote]

Well said. Some just find it way too easy to blame the course than to blame themselves. I've been saying it all along its not that courses are too hard today.....if anything the game is easier than ever........its the people of today who want everything to be easy and without work. Now we have to cater to the lowest common denominator.

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355361584' post='6059699']
Paraphrasing, "so the average golfer can score better???". The label "average" keeps popping up, but now "average means he has a 16 index.. really?. How did that happen when all inclusive number of golfers in the US was estimated at 28M+ including kids. Anybody with a semblance of reasoning knows the lions share of 28M do not break a 115, nor do they play by the rules or hold indexes, plus play only a limited number of times per year. Research says public courses target people that play golf in excess of twenty times per year.

The average index is 15.6; his score is over 100; hits 0 greens in regulation, 11% of fairways, has 38.3 putts, 0 birdies, and 1.3 pars. I am not surprised average Joe wants to score better. I thought that was why OEM's were bombarding the market with SGI, GI clubs and forgiving woods; so he could score better and hit the ball farther, or at least think so. Oops, guess that's not working??? So now investors should look at him as their bread and butter customer, when he's the one that doesn't like to spend at the course, or can't afford increased green fees to cover new course's or redesigning old courses. He's also the one that doesn't want to spend much time at the course, due to family, and likes to play various courses too.

How do you expect long-term investors to build multimillion dollar "public" golf course's that require thousands in labor, materials and equipment monthly to maintain, when the above average golfer might show up once a week.. makes no fiscal sense. I haven't even mentioned the time it takes to play golf for the man that has a family at home, that doesn't want to stay away for 5hrs. As I said, rightfully, his priorities should be with his family and job, not golf. So, if his schedule allows, he should be willing to cope with what he faces. Not expect a slew of people to spend millions on him. What ever his issues are, new easier or redesigned courses will not keep naturally slow and poorly skilled golfers from being slow, and loosing balls.

Sure, the golf industry is facing attrition... but so are cycling, skiing, tennis and hiking, to name a few other sports, even Football and Basketball are fighting to attract customers. So, using cyclical attrition as an argument for changing course designs is poorly thought out. Sure some people walk away because the game is hard, others because of physical issues and still other folks for personal reason's. The predominate reason though is cost and time constraints, not difficulty or unfair.

If courses could be built without someone investing long term capital, and seeking return on his investment, I wouldn't have an issue with some easier courses showing up. But, that's possible. Neither is redesigning, as that costs considerable these days; which again influences higher green fees for the average golfer that only earns 95k per year. IMO golf is not for the man that has children and wife that doesn't work, but that might be a separate issue.
[/quote]

Pretty much nailed it again.

[KDMullins]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355406199' post='6061745']
Well said. Some just find it way too easy to blame the course than to blame themselves. I've been saying it all along its not that courses are too hard today.....if anything the game is easier than ever........[b]its the people of today who want everything to be easy and without work.[/b] Now we have to cater to the lowest common denominator.
[/quote]

This is a common sentiment espoused by many today, and I'm not sure where it comes from. Where have you seen or read that "the people of today" somehow want things to be easy, to work less or not at all, etc., as opposed to prior generations?

[kellygreen]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1355406738' post='6061793']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355406199' post='6061745']
Well said. Some just find it way too easy to blame the course than to blame themselves. I've been saying it all along its not that courses are too hard today.....if anything the game is easier than ever........[b]its the people of today who want everything to be easy and without work.[/b] Now we have to cater to the lowest common denominator.
[/quote]

This is a common sentiment espoused by many today, and I'm not sure where it comes from. [i][b]Where have you seen or read that "the people of today" somehow want things to be easy, to work less or not at all, etc., as opposed to prior generations?[/b][/i]
[/quote]

From the mouth of every old person who has forgotten what it is like to be young and to have other life responsibilities besides working on their golf game.

[KDMullins]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1355407075' post='6061819']
[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1355406738' post='6061793']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355406199' post='6061745']
Well said. Some just find it way too easy to blame the course than to blame themselves. I've been saying it all along its not that courses are too hard today.....if anything the game is easier than ever........[b]its the people of today who want everything to be easy and without work.[/b] Now we have to cater to the lowest common denominator.
[/quote]

This is a common sentiment espoused by many today, and I'm not sure where it comes from. [i][b]Where have you seen or read that "the people of today" somehow want things to be easy, to work less or not at all, etc., as opposed to prior generations?[/b][/i]
[/quote]

From the mouth of every old person who has forgotten what it is like to be young and to have other life responsibilities besides working on their golf game.
[/quote]

I seriously wonder. Most of the people (who are golfers) I hang out with have multiple children, both spouses work, and in general, I suspect they have less free time and disposable income than their parents did at the same age. Other than a few people here or there that inherited money, I'm not familiar with people that don't work and/or don't want to work, who just expect things to be easy and who go out and play golf on the weekends.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1355407693' post='6061857']
I seriously wonder. Most of the people (who are golfers) I hang out with have multiple children, both spouses work, and in general, I suspect they have less free time and disposable income than their parents did at the same age. Other than a few people here or there that inherited money, I'm not familiar with people that don't work and/or don't want to work, who just expect things to be easy and who go out and play golf on the weekends.
[/quote]

Neither am I.

But I am familiar with alot of older people who lived through the era in this country where one (male) breadwinnner could earn enough to support a family in an upwardly-mobile lifestyle...and where most women were content to be solely responsible for the child-rearing and the housework. So they had the luxury of coming home and doing what they wanted in the evenings, and disappearing on the weekends to the course.

In a lot of today's marriages, that is a recipie for winding up in divorce court. Women are working outside the home and usually as many hours as men. They are not going to tolerate a husband who comes home and flops down on the couch in front of the TV, and sticks them with all the childcare and housework. They are not going to tolerate a husband who wants to disappear to the course all day on the weekends....ignoring her, and (once again) sticking her with all the childcare and housework.

So you are simply looking at golfers who have less time to devote to recreation than in years past....and particularly to an expensive, time-intensive activity like golf.

Now golf can either find a way to ADAPT to this societal change....and remain relevant and grow...

...or it can stick its nose in the air, and climb upon an exclusionary high-horse...and gradually become little more than a distraction for the wealthy.

It's all about choices.

[Imp]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1355407693' post='6061857']
I seriously wonder. Most of the people (who are golfers) I hang out with have multiple children, both spouses work, [/QUOTE]43, married, Dinks.

[QUOTE]and in general, I suspect they have less free time and disposable income than their parents did at the same age. [/QUOTE]That's an assumption. "Back then", parents (told us they) bought necessities, so many of us still don't know the income position of their parents vs how we live today.

In my experience, looking at how my siblings and myself have turned out, we have more free time and more disposable income than our parents. And same with my wifes siblings, our friends... it's come up many times in discussion. And yes, our parents had less kids than most of us. (but not myself/wife as we have none, and won't).

--kC

[Imp]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1355408304' post='6061887']
It's all about choices.[/quote]Starting with this one... Bingo. We make choices in life.

[quote]Neither am I.

But I am familiar with alot of older people who lived through the era in this country where one (male) breadwinnner could earn enough to support a family in an upwardly-mobile lifestyle...and where most women were content to be solely responsible for the child-rearing and the housework. So they had the luxury of coming home and doing what they wanted in the evenings, and disappearing on the weekends to the course.

In a lot of today's marriages, that is a recipie for winding up in divorce court. Women are working outside the home and usually as many hours as men. They are not going to tolerate a husband who comes home and flops down on the couch in front of the TV, and sticks them with all the childcare and housework. They are not going to tolerate a husband who wants to disappear to the course all day on the weekends....ignoring her, and (once again) sticking her with all the childcare and housework.

So you are simply looking at golfers who have less time to devote to recreation than in years past....and particularly to an expensive, time-intensive activity like golf.[/quote]Again, choices. My wife and I work, but we're the exception. We're Dinks in our 40s. She's got her hobby and I have mine. No kids opens up quite many options. Sure we miss out on the whole child rearing experience, no denying that.

[QUOTE]Now golf can either find a way to ADAPT to this societal change....and remain relevant and grow...

...or it can stick its nose in the air, and climb upon an exclusionary high-horse...and gradually become little more than a distraction for the wealthy.

[/quote]This is why 9 hole leagues work. Once a week, play for a couple hours. Lots of parents do it. And then they regail you of the kids, how they're doing, how they're leaving the nest, how they're doing in college, and how they now have much more free time to play golf.

--kC

[KDMullins]

[quote name='Imp' timestamp='1355408626' post='6061917']
That's an assumption. "Back then", parents (told us they) bought necessities, so many of us still don't know the income position of their parents vs how we live today.

In my experience, looking at how my siblings and myself have turned out, we have more free time and more disposable income than our parents. And same with my wifes siblings, our friends... it's come up many times in discussion. And yes, our parents had less kids than most of us. (but not myself/wife as we have none, and won't).

--kC
[/quote]

It is an assumption, but it's one I base on life observations. Sounds like your situation is a little different, and that's great, but I don't believe it's the norm.

[mikpga]

I just wish that during the boom, there would have been more executive courses designed/opened. I'm amazed at how much play we get at our facility.

9 hole executive, par 31...

Courses like these serve several purposes...

1. Great place for someone new to the game...
2. Great place to host the increasing number of middle/junior high school golf teams.
3. Great place for senior who still enjoy walking, but don't hit it as far as they once did.
4. Great place for family events.
5. Great place if you simply want to get a quick 9 in under two hours.

[KDMullins]

[quote name='Imp' timestamp='1355409031' post='6061955']
This is why 9 hole leagues work. Once a week, play for a couple hours. Lots of parents do it. And then they regail you of the kids, how they're doing, how they're leaving the nest, how they're doing in college, and how they now have much more free time to play golf.

--kC
[/quote]
Most parents with young kids are not playing in 9 hole leagues after work. They're either (a) still at work; (b) at a t ball game or dance recital; or (c) mowing grass, cooking dinner, doing homework, giving baths, etc.

Parents with kids in college and/or leaving the nest are 50-60 years old. The problem is there are no 20 and 30 year olds playing. Nobody new.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Imp' timestamp='1355409031' post='6061955']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1355408304' post='6061887']
It's all about choices.[/quote]Starting with this one... Bingo. We make choices in life.

[quote]Neither am I.

But I am familiar with alot of older people who lived through the era in this country where one (male) breadwinnner could earn enough to support a family in an upwardly-mobile lifestyle...and where most women were content to be solely responsible for the child-rearing and the housework. So they had the luxury of coming home and doing what they wanted in the evenings, and disappearing on the weekends to the course.

In a lot of today's marriages, that is a recipie for winding up in divorce court. Women are working outside the home and usually as many hours as men. They are not going to tolerate a husband who comes home and flops down on the couch in front of the TV, and sticks them with all the childcare and housework. They are not going to tolerate a husband who wants to disappear to the course all day on the weekends....ignoring her, and (once again) sticking her with all the childcare and housework.

So you are simply looking at golfers who have less time to devote to recreation than in years past....and particularly to an expensive, time-intensive activity like golf.[/quote]Again, choices. My wife and I work, but we're the exception. We're Dinks in our 40s. She's got her hobby and I have mine. No kids opens up quite many options. Sure we miss out on the whole child rearing experience, no denying that.

[QUOTE]Now golf can either find a way to ADAPT to this societal change....and remain relevant and grow...

...or it can stick its nose in the air, and climb upon an exclusionary high-horse...and gradually become little more than a distraction for the wealthy.

[/quote]This is why 9 hole leagues work. Once a week, play for a couple hours. Lots of parents do it. And then they regail you of the kids, how they're doing, how they're leaving the nest, how they're doing in college, and how they now have much more free time to play golf.

--kC
[/quote]

I understand choices. I'm single, with no kids (that I know about), and two dogs. That's why I can take music lessons once-a-week, and disappear to the practice range for an hour in evenings for two nights a week, plus play or practice on weekends. I have the freedom to work on my game, without sacrificing other responsibilities.

But my situation is not typical for someone in their 40s. If golf wants to remain relevant it has to adapt to how most people (it wishes to attract) actually live.

While 9-hole leagues are great, they also have to realize that this may be all the golf time some people get if they have children. So--while that may be enough playing time to maintain their level of skill---players are not going to improve only playing this much. So you want courses that average, once-a-week golfer can play and have fun on.

Yes, some players sabotage themselves by letting their egos get the best of them...and playing from the wrong tees.

But there are some course that are simply poorly designed. I like Jack as a player, and as an ambassador of the game...but he is a terrible course designer. He always designs courses for how HE likes to play golf. So every course has ample fairways so you can blast your drive...but then greens that offer the player TINY targets to shoot at, that are surrounded by trouble...and demand HIGH, quick-stopping shots with precise distance control. If you don't have the clubhead speed to hit those kinds of shots, there IS no "right tee" to play from on his courses.

Even worse, he's terrible at scaling up the challenge on his courses. If you move to the forward tees on one of his courses, the only thing that happens is the course just plays SHORTER. You are still required to hit the same short of shots that are likely to be beyond the skill level of many recreational players.

I played on of his resort courses in Myrtle about 10 years ago...and I simply hated it. Part of it was the set up, and trying to play a course with 2+" of Bermuda rough...but the course was designed with greens that were so heavily swaled and so heavily defended that you could hit your tee shot in the middle of the fairway. Hit your approach to the center of the green...and still find yourself battling to make par.

Worse still, one par 3 was so poorly designed, that it forced you to shoot at a peninsula green that (like the 17th at Sawgrass) required me to hit a shot that I didn't have in my bag in order to get the ball to stop (and hold) the green. Forcing me to try to hit a partial shot high enough to get it to stay on this green.

[i]I lost THREE balls in the water trying to gauge the distance on a TEE shot on a par 3. Because I was presented with a tee shot where I couldn't hit a full shot, and there was NOWHERE to bail out, and play safely.[/i]

That is just a poorly designed course.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1355372208' post='6060635']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355361584' post='6059699']
IMO golf is not for the man that has children and wife that doesn't work, but that might be a separate issue.
[/quote]

Where do you get this stuff? Golf is not for men with families/children?

There would be no resorts, country clubs and golf as we know it in this country were it not for men with families shelling out cash to make these things go. Who do you think pays for all this stuff?
[/quote]

Where... I have a number of people on payroll that make low six-figures and know what their net income is after taxes and healthcare, cars, etc. The average male golfer makes 95k per year... with a stay at home wife, 2+ children, college savings for kids, possibly repayment of college costs for Dad, maybe mom, possible wedding savings for daughter(s), family healthcare, and buying a home, and everything else. How is a man with that going to justify spending $25-$70 weekly to play golf? Much less taking the family to some golf resort vacation without be weighted down by heavy CC bills... that's why so many couples today are in financial trouble..they think they deserve to do this or that, and too many have lost sight of proper priorities. But, as I said, that's another subject.

Age break down:
Under 30 5 % 30-39 12 % 40-49 22 % 50-59 24 % 60-69 18 % 70+ 19 %

This chart confirms what I see... 5%-12% are under 40... that means the bulk is over 40, with nearly grown children and a well established career.

[KDMullins]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355418540' post='6062809']
[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1355372208' post='6060635']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355361584' post='6059699']
IMO golf is not for the man that has children and wife that doesn't work, but that might be a separate issue.
[/quote]

Where do you get this stuff? Golf is not for men with families/children?

There would be no resorts, country clubs and golf as we know it in this country were it not for men with families shelling out cash to make these things go. Who do you think pays for all this stuff?
[/quote]

Where... I have a number of people on payroll that make low six-figures and know what their net income is after taxes and healthcare, cars, etc. The average male golfer makes 95k per year... with a stay at home wife, 2+ children, college savings for kids, possibly repayment of college costs for Dad, maybe mom, possible wedding savings for daughter(s), family healthcare, and buying a home, and everything else. How is a man with that going to justify spending $25-$70 weekly to play golf? Much less taking the family to some golf resort vacation without be weighted down by heavy CC bills... that's why so many couples today are in financial trouble..they think they deserve to do this or that, and too many have lost sight of proper priorities. But, as I said, that's another subject.

This chart confirms what I see... 5%-12% are under 40... that means the bulk is over 40, with nearly grown children and a well established career.
[/quote]

I can't agree or disagree on your 5-12% number, but assuming that's anywhere near accurate, do you think (a) that is consistent with what it's been historically; and (b) that it evidences any potential problem(s) for the future of golf?

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1355406738' post='6061793']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355406199' post='6061745']
Well said. Some just find it way too easy to blame the course than to blame themselves. I've been saying it all along its not that courses are too hard today.....if anything the game is easier than ever........[b]its the people of today who want everything to be easy and without work.[/b] Now we have to cater to the lowest common denominator.
[/quote]

This is a common sentiment espoused by many today, and I'm not sure where it comes from. Where have you seen or read that "the people of today" somehow want things to be easy, to work less or not at all, etc., as opposed to prior generations?
[/quote]

Life is NOT substantiated by reading it on the internet. I play golf in multiple states and see with my own eyes, even at private clubs. People loose balls on easy courses, take generous drops, don't count lost ball strokes, and adapt the rules to accommodate what they deem acceptable to them. If someone didn't want it easy those acts wouldn't be nearly as common as they are. Even in men's clubs, if some people didn't want "easy" they wouldn't cheat, and they'd post all scores regardless of their index; but a great many don't. They are called Sand-baggers.

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1355406738' post='6061793']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1355406199' post='6061745']
Well said. Some just find it way too easy to blame the course than to blame themselves. I've been saying it all along its not that courses are too hard today.....if anything the game is easier than ever........[b]its the people of today who want everything to be easy and without work.[/b] Now we have to cater to the lowest common denominator.
[/quote]

This is a common sentiment espoused by many today, and I'm not sure where it comes from. Where have you seen or read that "the people of today" somehow want things to be easy, to work less or not at all, etc., as opposed to prior generations?
[/quote]

Man if you don't see this in every area of society today I don't know how to help you. This goes directly to the heart of why golf is hurting. It is exactly why the golfing poulation is aging and as those folks die off they are not being replaced by younger golfers.

Golf is difficult and it takes dedication and practice to get anywhere at it. Things like that simply don't appeal to a large portion of today's generation.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1355418837' post='6062833']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355418540' post='6062809']
[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1355372208' post='6060635']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1355361584' post='6059699']
IMO golf is not for the man that has children and wife that doesn't work, but that might be a separate issue.
[/quote]

Where do you get this stuff? Golf is not for men with families/children?

There would be no resorts, country clubs and golf as we know it in this country were it not for men with families shelling out cash to make these things go. Who do you think pays for all this stuff?
[/quote]

Where... I have a number of people on payroll that make low six-figures and know what their net income is after taxes and healthcare, cars, etc. The average male golfer makes 95k per year... with a stay at home wife, 2+ children, college savings for kids, possibly repayment of college costs for Dad, maybe mom, possible wedding savings for daughter(s), family healthcare, and buying a home, and everything else. How is a man with that going to justify spending $25-$70 weekly to play golf? Much less taking the family to some golf resort vacation without be weighted down by heavy CC bills... that's why so many couples today are in financial trouble..they think they deserve to do this or that, and too many have lost sight of proper priorities. But, as I said, that's another subject.

This chart confirms what I see... 5%-12% are under 40... that means the bulk is over 40, with nearly grown children and a well established career.
[/quote]

I can't agree or disagree on your 5-12% number, but assuming that's anywhere near accurate, do you think (a) that is consistent with what it's been historically; and (b) that it evidences any potential problem(s) for the future of golf?
[/quote]

First, regarding "exclusionary" mindset, that's is purely baloney. Just because someone disagrees with something that others don't like, doesn't mean the predisposition is exclusionary.

The numbers in all age segments improved due to the flourishing economy. When the recession hit, general downsizing and huge unemployed numbers (23M currently), each of those age segments will adjust downward. Also, part of each of those segment increases were new golfers that only took up the game simply because they realized they had extra money to try it. Since the recession, many of those people are fading out of the stats, just like many home buyers are no longer homeowners; they didn't have the resources to maintain those expensive homes during tough times.

IMO, what's happening now is the golfing population is falling backwards, possibly to where it was years back, reflecting fiscally healthy dedicated golfers. Supply and demand is doing its job.

I see no problem for the future of golf itself. What I see is loss of income for some people and organizations that were overly generous in their beliefs and business plans, and invested using poor judgment. Sure, some courses need to close, and OEM's need to adjust revenue expectations downward, which means reorganizing, possibly layoffs. Golf club fitters, builders and other peripheral markets face challenge too, but that's the way supply and demand works.

PS: If you want to see what could happen if America's ignorant population and congress stays on track... conduct due diligence on China's golf industry and average golfer. Who plays, more germane, who doesn't, better yet, cannot.