Are Today's Golf Courses Unfair to the Average Golfer?

[kellygreen]

[quote name='ryancjordan' timestamp='1354922801' post='6035735']
Man if stuff like "I don't care if people come out and play" or "its not my job to make the average golfer happy" is the attitude toward newcomers to the game, we are just doomed. How do people get to the point where they lose every single gram of awareness and just make them go "well its not going to benefit me so screw everyone else". It is just such a bizarre attitude. I feel like half of the posters in this thread are just like "sure, provide all the evidence you want that people are leaving the game because its too hard, but f*** you and your evidence and f*** them, I wanted to make a point and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. Whats that? You want facts from me? f*** you too". Seems to be what this discussion has boiled down to.
[/quote]

Yep.

People want everyone else to change....so that they and their world can remain the same.

[Pepperturbo]

First, JN's event was a Labor Day experiment. It was a success, and fun to all that joined in. But remember, that's a private club. Private clubs host all sorts of fun events to get more people involved; as they should. By the way, that is not something JN would have considered in years past, due to his clubs reputation. I see no contradiction in his event.

Not change.. that's distorting intent, as usual; look at the challenge as is.

[jdhallissey]

How about this............. Life is not fair. How about we try making life easy? Will it ever happen? No. So if you think golf is to hard by needing to hit a ball 150 yards in the air then this is not the sport for you. Yes I will tell you flat golf courses with no water deep bunkers are stupid boring. I am also going to comment on the guy who posted the ratings for AGNG..... If you think that course is hard you sir are not a golfer. IF you think you need paralleled fairways to not lose a golf ball then this is not the sport for you.... At the end of the day this battle will go no where fast. This thread is a big waste of time as I am wasting my time by responding. I can honestly tell you nobody will ever agree on this subject. There is still not a course to this day that I have played that I will say is unfair.

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='ryancjordan' timestamp='1354922801' post='6035735']
Man if stuff like "I don't care if people come out and play" or "its not my job to make the average golfer happy" is the attitude toward newcomers to the game, we are just doomed. How do people get to the point where they lose every single gram of awareness and just make them go "well its not going to benefit me so screw everyone else". It is just such a bizarre attitude. I feel like half of the posters in this thread are just like "sure, provide all the evidence you want that people are leaving the game because its too hard, but f*** you and your evidence and f*** them, I wanted to make a point and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. Whats that? You want facts from me? f*** you too". Seems to be what this discussion has boiled down to.
[/quote]

You and I will have to agree to disagree on a lot of things. Sure a few people are leaving the game because they can't dedicate the time it takes to get to a level where they can play proficiently. [u][b] That is their choice[/b][/u]. That does not mean you go out and change courses to make it easier for these folks or whine about it on the internet. Golf is difficult however equipment has made it easier than ever and we still have people whining that its too hard. You can't help these people......[u].they need to help themselves[/u]. For those who want to play at golf instead of actually playing the game there are chip and putt courses, executive and par 3 courses. Real golf courses are difficult and there is no getting around it. There is also no way around the simple fact that playing this game takes practice. There are no real shortcuts despite the latest GolfChannel infomercial.

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='jdhallissey' timestamp='1354924998' post='6035873']
How about this............. Life is not fair. How about we try making life easy? Will it ever happen? No. So if you think golf is to hard by needing to hit a ball 150 yards in the air then this is not the sport for you. Yes I will tell you flat golf courses with no water deep bunkers are stupid boring. I am also going to comment on the guy who posted the ratings for AGNG..... If you think that course is hard you sir are not a golfer. IF you think you need paralleled fairways to not lose a golf ball then this is not the sport for you.... At the end of the day this battle will go no where fast. This thread is a big waste of time as I am wasting my time by responding. I can honestly tell you nobody will ever agree on this subject. There is still not a course to this day that I have played that I will say is unfair.
[/quote]

[color=#a52a2a][size=4][u][b]Bingo!!!!! Thank you very much!!!!![/b][/u][/size][/color]

[SurfDuffer]

I'd be curious what a majority of those who want easier golf courses think of this news story???? http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8720551/roger-goodell-says-nfl-competition-committee-consider-eliminating-kickoffs

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1354924282' post='6035841']
First, JN's event was a Labor Day experiment. It was a success, and fun to all that joined in. But remember, that's a private club. Private clubs host all sorts of fun events to get more people involved; as they should. By the way, that is not something JN would have considered in years past, due to his clubs reputation. I see no contradiction in his event.

Not change.. that's distorting intent, as usual; look at the challenge as is.
[/quote]

8" hole, brought to you by the same sissified whiner that designed half sized golf courses in the 80's. Waa, waa, waa, waaa. Wish he'd stop whining about how difficult golf is and stop trying to make it easier for average players. Can't his members just suck it up and practice a little harder? 140 slope for the 18 handicapper I say!

[KDMullins]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354879940' post='6031751']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354829358' post='6028889']
What is this "Average" golfer??? Who is this guy??? Are these the people I see who can't advance the ball forward more than 120 yards per stroke.....who hit more shots sideways than forward.....who can't get the ball airborne???? Is this who we need to cater to???? Really???? These people aren't playing golf to begin with. Let them go to the miniature golf course, putt putt course, chip and putt or par three course. Bowling may be more up their alley. Better yet Bumper Bowling.
[/quote]

I never did get an answer to this question. Perhaps I am thick so some of you please humor me here and provide your answer as to what an "average" golfer.

After answering that one can someone please explain this concept of "unfair" to me????

Perhaps I'm just really dense cause it sounds to me like the point of this thread is that modern golf courses are unfair to people who suck at golf. Sounds like whining to me......but that's just me. What's worse is that you folks apparently want golf courses changed or built to accommodate these golfers that suck so as to not hurt their sensibilities.

I've lost a lot of golf balls in my days and put up plenty of scores well over 100 when I was starting out and never once did it occur to me that I was being unfairly treated by the golf course and the man who designed it. I just thought it was cause I sucked. Geez, I must be stubborn or something cause I took it as a challenge to improve. What's worse, I must be a masochist cause I actually enjoyed it despite losing golf balls and a few bucks to my buddies.

Life's just not fair folks. Its not fair that someone can't hit a golfball in the air. Its not fair that they put hazards down the right hand side where slicers will lose their ball. Its not fair that a hole requires you to hit over water. Its not fair. Its not fair. Its not fair. Waaa Waaaa WAAAAAAA!!!!!!!
[/quote]

For years, the average 18-hole score for a US golfer has been around 100. The average handicap for both men and women is between 15 and 16. Obviously, that's only golfers that are serious enough about the game to even post their scores.

[Snufles]

I'm bored!

Where to next?

[Sean2]

[quote name='Snufles' timestamp='1354931363' post='6036303']
I'm bored!

Where to next?
[/quote]
Northwest Territories?

[ryancjordan]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1354927673' post='6036043']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1354924282' post='6035841']
First, JN's event was a Labor Day experiment. It was a success, and fun to all that joined in. But remember, that's a private club. Private clubs host all sorts of fun events to get more people involved; as they should. By the way, that is not something JN would have considered in years past, due to his clubs reputation. I see no contradiction in his event.

Not change.. that's distorting intent, as usual; look at the challenge as is.
[/quote]

8" hole, brought to you by the same sissified whiner that designed half sized golf courses in the 80's. Waa, waa, waa, waaa. Wish he'd stop whining about how difficult golf is and stop trying to make it easier for average players. Can't his members just suck it up and practice a little harder? 140 slope for the 18 handicapper I say!
[/quote]

Man this is some really quality useful discussion and I'm really glad you're here to provide us with such value...

I hope you realize that was sarcasm cuz I laid it on pretty thick.

[Imp]

[quote name='Snufles' timestamp='1354931363' post='6036303']
I'm bored!

Where to next?
[/quote]How about how Canada should just be the 52nd state after Puerto Rico?

--kC

[Snufles]

[quote name='Imp' timestamp='1354934912' post='6036583']
[quote name='Snufles' timestamp='1354931363' post='6036303']
I'm bored!

Where to next?
[/quote]How about how Canada should just be the 52nd state after Puerto Rico?

--kC
[/quote]


I think the US should become one of our Territories. It would make crossing the border so much easier.

[mdgboxx]

[quote name='Imp' timestamp='1354934912' post='6036583']
[quote name='Snufles' timestamp='1354931363' post='6036303']
I'm bored!

Where to next?
[/quote]How about how Canada should just be the 52nd state after Puerto Rico?

--kC
[/quote]

Our Eastern Provinces (East of Quebec) might honor that wish sooner than you think!

[mikpga]

Here in Cincinnati during the late 80's and throughout the 90's we saw the following facilities open...

- Jack Nicklaus Championship Course ( Astin Oaks )
- Dr. Hurdzan design Championship Track (Walden Ponds)
- Dr. Hurdzan - The Vineyard
- Arthur Hills Championship Track ( Legendary Run )
- Greg Norman Champ Track ( Elk Run )
- PB Dye Champ Track Private ( Heritage CC )
- Pebble Creek redesign to have the reputation of "The toughest track in Cincinnati"
- TPC at Rivers Bend Private Championship Track
- Oasis GC Champ Track Palmer Design
- Stonelick Hills Champ Track Public
- Ivy Hills CC Private Champ Track

And there are more...

Also on the " Easier Side "

1. Meadow Links Executive Course
2. Fairfield North Trace Executive
3. Robins Nest Par 3

I love all the courses in my first list, but IMO they are too difficult for the majority.

[Sean2]

[quote name='mikpga' timestamp='1354989945' post='6038537']
Here in Cincinnati during the late 80's and throughout the 90's we saw the following facilities open...

- Jack Nicklaus Championship Course ( Astin Oaks )
- Dr. Hurdzan design Championship Track (Walden Ponds)
- Dr. Hurdzan - The Vineyard
- Arthur Hills Championship Track ( Legendary Run )
- Greg Norman Champ Track ( Elk Run )
- PB Dye Champ Track Private ( Heritage CC )
- Pebble Creek redesign to have the reputation of "The toughest track in Cincinnati"
- TPC at Rivers Bend Private Championship Track
- Oasis GC Champ Track Palmer Design
- Stonelick Hills Champ Track Public
- Ivy Hills CC Private Champ Track

And there are more...

Also on the " Easier Side "

1. Meadow Links Executive Course
2. Fairfield North Trace Executive
3. Robins Nest Par 3

I love all the courses in my first list, but IMO they are too difficult for the majority.
[/quote]

I'm sorry to hear that Mike.

I played a course today that is the second oldest public course in the United States. Bobby Jones used to play it quite a bit when he was in the Boston area. I'm told he particularly loved the 12th hole and would play it over and over again because no matter where you would hit your tee shot you would always get a different lie (it's an uphill tee shot and the fairway has what can only be described as "moguls". You hit your approach uphill to a smallish green that slopes severely from right to left). It's a fair test of golf for any golfer. However, the course isn't littered with a lot of the hazards that seem to plague many of today's modern golf courses.

[Petethreeput]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1354911526' post='6034583']
[quote name='Petethreeput' timestamp='1354868297' post='6031519']
I wish I had the work ethic and the natural ability to be as good as the posters who say this is whining.
I also, without doing the search, could probably find somewhere in their posting history that golf IS A LIFETIME game.
I cherish the times I get to play with my father.
I hope I get to do the same with my son.
I don't like that my golf trips with my father, which are also cherished (HI, Scotland, AZ, FLA, Mexico) wherever we decide to go weren't bunged up by weird "carry holes" that my "egotistic" father at age 80 can't clear, that weren't clearly demarcated on the scorecard.
I will lie in bed wishing I could be as bad a** the posters who post vitriol because they are so GD great at golf.
I believe unfair is not synonomous with challenging.
I also think for those who toot their own horn about how expensive a course is or isn't is the same person who blows on about personal importance. Price is not the issue, unless of course you can't truly afford it.
Golf is a game for all players, and modern courses aren't as accomdating.
Let your pathetic justifications spew forth.
[/quote]

Interesting line of thought that I agree with, least the family value aspects. I didn't get married till late in life, so I could build my business interests, and that allowed me to take up the game of golf at 40.

What's a bit confusing is your sig says 2.6; I am in that area as well and nearing 65. Curious how old you are, and how challenging the course is your handi is on?
Yep, golf is a game for all players, much like business. What its not is a game where courses need to be redesigned and rules need to be watered down for those that do not, for what ever the reason, put the time in to get better. Brings to mind redistribution of wealth for the entitled "I don't want put in the time" mind, but that's another subject.

Clearly, a great many people that play golf have limited interest in the game. Its for that reason, their opinion has IMO little value to the game of golf. That's not pathetic either. Its just different view then yours; undoubtedly comes from life experience, and the influences of doing what it takes to realize accomplishment.

What's bothersome is too many of the posters in this thread argue and insult, as if this is personal, yet you and some others claim to have reasonable games. Its whining because today, more then ever in my lifetime, people whine because of this or that is hard or unfair. Instead of taking the challenge face on, toughing up and bettering themselves, they opt for finding ways to make it easier on them and insulting others.
[/quote]

I am 45, and my HCP is a reflection on an ill spent youth, not serious golf. The course I play, and I don't understand this stuff (nor do I care to) is rated 69.3/125, at least the tees I play with friends. I prefer to play from the back tees which are 70.7/128, but they don't like that, so when I branch out from my usual partners we play from there (I obviously dont play there as much). I only play to have fun with my friends. I never play by myself, and can say I practiced about an hour this past season.

I will not be a 2+ at 65. I have had 2 back surgeries and honestly don't care that much. I love the game of golf, not so much the "sport" of golf. It is not a source of competition for me, though we do play for a little money, and I mean a little.

I think probably the best word I have come up with is "accomodating," I don't think unfair is the proper word. I watch my father, and many others, (but I don't really care about them) who hit their drives, then lay up to the edge of a carry to insure they can carry it with their next shot. I will play any course, and it will be fun, and if it isn't then that's my fault, but that's me. I believe I am in the upper percentile of golfers statistically. This discussion is not about me, it is about the average golfer.

I only bring up my dad because he is a good golfer, he simply happens to be 80. No matter how hard he works on his game, and he does (this is his only exercise at this point) he can't turn back the clock... he is still 80. He also fits my definition of the average golfer by HDCP, but of course he doesn't hit the ball as far as a 35 y/o 18 HDCP. Which is why I take umbrage with the sentiment that it is his fault for not practicing. When he started golfing again, he took over 50 yrs off, he was a 10.

[mikpga]

I love all those courses! But if I'm at best a bogey golfer, my experience can easily be a frustrating one!

[MtlJeff]

I suppose we should've seen this one coming in retrospect, but i'm still a little surprised at how this thread turned out. Personally i don't really understand the argument that courses can never be too hard. I mean if someone designed a course with 18 island greens, 15 foot wide fairways and blind shots galore i don't think it would be a popular course other then a novelty attraction. Also on the other hand, a course that is 18 straight 300yd straighforward par 4's would be no fun either because it would be too easy.

I don't get the comment that "life isn't fair" so golf shouldn't be? First of all i never read in the rule book that golf was supposed to be exactly like life, secondly what does that mean? That if you were deserving of a promotion and got passed over, a golf course should be designed with impossible pin locations to emulate that? And life, at least in developed countries, actually seems quite a bit easier then golf by comparison. Most players pretty much suck at golf, the average handicap being 15-16 and in actuality surely much higher then that since most of the worst players don't keep a handicap. People seem to be doing a lot better at life. So maybe according to that argument golf SHOULD be easier. I've seen a lot of people drift through life aimlessly and still afford apartments and a car, i can't imagine someone drifting aimlessly through a Pete Dye design

I think Sean just wanted to highlight the growing trend (started by guys like Mr Dye) to place a much higher emphasis on the penal side of courses. Adding multiple shots where there is no bailout, it's either hit the shot well or make double. To me there is a place for that in golf, but not really multiple times in the same round, hole after hole. I'm sure there are a lot of courses out there that are suitable for even the hackeriest of the hacker (pepperturbo made a good point about golfer having to know their skill level and play courses accordingly), but it does seem that a lot of new courses tend to go for the grand scale and penal nature of the modern design. I've seen this at my own home course, where our old course is very playable and strategic and the newly designed one basically beats you over the head with OB and water. Guys who are 8-12 handicaps (not bad players in the end) really don't like the new course, and it slows down play which is no fun for anyone.

Several guys in the thread have pointed out that it's not even that hard to design a course that is challenging for good golfers, but playable for bad ones. The "modern" design seems to be influenced by courses like TPC sawgrass or Whistling straights or Kiawah and not courses like St Andrews

[jdhallissey]

Golf is a state of mind. If you think it is hard then well it is going to be. Is St Andrews a hard course? No not really. Is TPC Sawgrass a hard course no not really. I understand my golf game is different then well most. PGA West Stadium course is hard but is it unfair? No I don't think so. that is why this battle will never be done. Modern courses are great, the deep bunkers the fairways sloped so you have to hit the correct side.

To your Whistling straits or Kiawah courses being hard? No if there is no wind, so with that said do you not play in wind due to it being unfair? Do you not play in rain because everything is wet?

[MtlJeff]

If the courses that ranked 1st, 6th and 7th respectively in GD's ranking of 2012 toughest courses in the US are not difficult enough for you, maybe [i]you [/i]should find a tougher sport, like bareknuckle boxing, or wrestling bears. Bear Wrestling is a state of mind, if you think the bear will eat you then he probably will.

[jdhallissey]

But they are not unfair. Getting out of bed every once in awhile is HARD too but we still do it. America and most every other country has become soft. Yes my golf game is different and we do play different courses. You keep playing the 110 sloped courses and i will stick to my 135 and above courses k-pookie

[MtlJeff]

My course slopes at 140 and I play off a 1. But from my ivory tower i like to see myself as a champion of the common man

[jdhallissey]

Then do you think your course is unfair? Since you play such a "hard" course it surely must be unfair. They should probably flatten every green....... no more bunkers because they are not thinking of the average golfer there.


Then while we are on the subject- How about Tobacco Road---- I tipped it out the first time I ever played it shot 65 and thought really that is all this course was! All you have to do it hit it straight. Tobacco road is suppose to be one of the hardest so they say

[MtlJeff]

Honestly speaking, yes one of our 9's i think is too difficult for the majority of golfers. I don't have any issues with greens having breaks or there being hazards. But off the top of my head i'd say 6 of the 9 holes on it would be overwhelming for say, a 15 handicap who i would say is "average". Three of the holes have OB or water on both sides of the fairway, there is a long par 3 with water the full way down one side and the green slopes away from the other side. There is another par 3 that is 180ys from the [i]front [/i]tees (230 from the back though they mercifully rarely play it from there) that also has one of the most difficult greens i've ever played. I have seen several guys with handicaps of 5 or less shoot close to 50 on it. I shot 44 on it in a competitive round, and on that same day the B players playing behind us took 3+ hours to play their front because of how slow play was. I don't like bringing my friends to that course because it isn't fun for them

Look i know what you are saying, joking aside. I'm not part of the "let's water it down so 15 handicaps can shoot 73 and then everyone will want to play golf" crowd. I just don't like courses that take it too far.

[MtlJeff]

I've never played Tobacco Road but it's interesting because from what i have heard i would think it's actually a very good overall design. I've always wanted to play it and have friends in NC who i've asked to take me the next time i am down there for business.

Isn't Tobacco Road a course with fairly wide fairways, where the difficulty comes from being on the correct side, the risk/reward nature and the greens? I got the impression a 15 could play that course OK though if you miss wildly there is a lot of waste area correct?

funny you mention it because i actually really want to play that course i wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on it. I'm supposed to be in Raleigh in March

[Snufles]

[quote name='jdhallissey' timestamp='1355081751' post='6042509']
Then do you think your course is unfair? Since you play such a "hard" course it surely must be unfair. They should probably flatten every green....... no more bunkers because they are not thinking of the average golfer there.


Then while we are on the subject- How about Tobacco Road---- I tipped it out the first time I ever played it shot 65 and thought really that is all this course was! All you have to do it hit it straight. Tobacco road is suppose to be one of the hardest so they say
[/quote]

Another who has missed the point of the thread.

[jdhallissey]

I honestly really like tobacco road. There are a lot of forced carries, the fairways are not as wide as you would think but yes the biggest thing there is being on the correct side. It is pure target golf. A yardage book is a must. I could play it everyday and not get bored with it. I got paired with a 2 some and they quite after 9 holes because they were so fed up with it. They were complaining that the greens were to fast, that they couldn't see where they were going. They lost a ton of golf balls.

Well I can honestly say they couldn't hit a ball 200 yards in the air so that was there biggest issue. Funny enough they were two guys on a golf trip from canada. They were nice guys but you could tell they play nothing but courses with down and back fairways.

[jdhallissey]

I didn't miss the point of this thread- I said my peace and now I am adding my opinion to the golf is not the issue. The people playing it are.

[Sean2]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1355069904' post='6041727']
I suppose we should've seen this one coming in retrospect, but i'm still a little surprised at how this thread turned out. Personally i don't really understand the argument that courses can never be too hard. I mean if someone designed a course with 18 island greens, 15 foot wide fairways and blind shots galore i don't think it would be a popular course other then a novelty attraction. Also on the other hand, a course that is 18 straight 300yd straighforward par 4's would be no fun either because it would be too easy.

I don't get the comment that "life isn't fair" so golf shouldn't be? First of all i never read in the rule book that golf was supposed to be exactly like life, secondly what does that mean? That if you were deserving of a promotion and got passed over, a golf course should be designed with impossible pin locations to emulate that? And life, at least in developed countries, actually seems quite a bit easier then golf by comparison. Most players pretty much suck at golf, the average handicap being 15-16 and in actuality surely much higher then that since most of the worst players don't keep a handicap. People seem to be doing a lot better at life. So maybe according to that argument golf SHOULD be easier. I've seen a lot of people drift through life aimlessly and still afford apartments and a car, i can't imagine someone drifting aimlessly through a Pete Dye design

I think Sean just wanted to highlight the growing trend (started by guys like Mr Dye) to place a much higher emphasis on the penal side of courses. Adding multiple shots where there is no bailout, it's either hit the shot well or make double. To me there is a place for that in golf, but not really multiple times in the same round, hole after hole. I'm sure there are a lot of courses out there that are suitable for even the hackeriest of the hacker (pepperturbo made a good point about golfer having to know their skill level and play courses accordingly), but it does seem that a lot of new courses tend to go for the grand scale and penal nature of the modern design. I've seen this at my own home course, where our old course is very playable and strategic and the newly designed one basically beats you over the head with OB and water. Guys who are 8-12 handicaps (not bad players in the end) really don't like the new course, and it slows down play which is no fun for anyone.

Several guys in the thread have pointed out that it's not even that hard to design a course that is challenging for good golfers, but playable for bad ones. The "modern" design seems to be influenced by courses like TPC sawgrass or Whistling straights or Kiawah and not courses like St Andrews
[/quote]

Yes, pretty much. :-)