Are Today's Golf Courses Unfair to the Average Golfer?

[fore_life]

It's not the architects faults, it's the players.

Look, when I was a kid just starting to play, my dad would take my brother and I to par 3 courses, 9 hole tracks, or courses without lots of water, desert, or players. It was like golf training wheels. No way in hell would we even think about playing at tracks that were known as tough or crowded. It sounds harsh, but some Golfers do not belong on certain courses.

I think avrag mentioned that in Europe, you have to have a handicap to play certain courses, I think it's a good idea. Hell maybe that would grow the game, give people something to shoot for.

You can't tell me that there aren't easy courses out there for beginners or hacks. The problem, IMO, is that people aren't realisticoif their own abilities. Look at bethpage black, that place is a destination for low cappers, what 20 capper would play there? Visa versa, why punish a low cap by softening up a design to make it appeal to the masses?

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1354840338' post='6029771']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354831238' post='6029049']
In the picture you posted there is clearly a forward tee box with no forced carry. If someone can't help topping the ball and can't carry that tiny area what the heck are they doing playing those back boxes????? You shouldn't have posted that pic.......you lost even more credibility for your post. That hole doesn't even look particularly difficult.
[/quote]

You can't just play whatever tees you want on any given hole and have a legitimate, postable score for handicap purposes. I don't understand why people keep saying this. Besides, what you're seeing is most likely the Women's Tee.

...and are you really going to argue with the guy that plays there every week based on an aerial photograph?
[/quote]

Come on.......the guy posts a photo of a hole with a forced carry that most competent golfers could get across with a pitching wedge. You don't even have to fly it 100 yards to clear the hazard. He posted the picture not me. The scale is right there at the bottom of the picture. From the tips its 150 yards or less to the front edge of the green. This is our example of a hole that is too difficult (I'm sorry....UNFAIR to use the original poster's own words). Good lord, cry me a river.

My point regarding that front tee box is that someone who isn't competent enough to consistently fly over that little hazard to the other side should be playing that front tee box. If that means the poor guy plays the lady's tees in a skirt.....so be it. That is where that person belongs regardless.

[mikpga]

Yes. We got the proposed ban on anchoring, we got Jack encouraging bigger holes, meanwhile golf courses continue to be difficult for the masses.

[duffer987]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354834475' post='6029289']
Bad design is bad design. That's a topic of its own. This is a thread of people whining about courses being too difficult.

[/quote]

That you cannot associate bad design with unaturally difficult golf holes, with no reasonable playable options for the 'average golfer' to enjoy the hole, pretty neatly sums up why you continue to bang the whining drum.

Underneath all of your juvenile, petty comments, lies the basic problem of you being unable to understand the argument.
I do not know if it is a lack of reading comprehension, or some more general problem, but obviously you will never be able to see past your myopic POV.

Thanks for that post, that should be all any of us need to realize there is no point continuing this debate with you.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354845536' post='6030173']
[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1354840338' post='6029771']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354831238' post='6029049']
In the picture you posted there is clearly a forward tee box with no forced carry. If someone can't help topping the ball and can't carry that tiny area what the heck are they doing playing those back boxes????? You shouldn't have posted that pic.......you lost even more credibility for your post. That hole doesn't even look particularly difficult.
[/quote]

You can't just play whatever tees you want on any given hole and have a legitimate, postable score for handicap purposes. I don't understand why people keep saying this. Besides, what you're seeing is most likely the Women's Tee.

...and are you really going to argue with the guy that plays there every week based on an aerial photograph?
[/quote]

Come on.......the guy posts a photo of a hole with a forced carry that most competent golfers could get across with a pitching wedge. You don't even have to fly it 100 yards to clear the hazard. He posted the picture not me. The scale is right there at the bottom of the picture. From the tips its 150 yards or less to the front edge of the green. This is our example of a hole that is too difficult (I'm sorry....UNFAIR to use the original poster's own words). Good lord, cry me a river.

My point regarding that front tee box is that someone who isn't competent enough to consistently fly over that little hazard to the other side should be playing that front tee box. If that means the poor guy plays the lady's tees in a skirt.....so be it. That is where that person belongs regardless.
[/quote]

Do you expect a men's golf league to split players up on different tees when they are competing against each other in match play? Like I said, it's not a hard course for a good player (my scoring avg last year was 75.6, the league median was around 90 and the highest player was 104.8), but 5 of the 9 holes on the front have OB left for example and other features of the course seem perfectly designed for encouraging slow play (by losing balls mostly). So it shouldn't be a surprise that this once highly rated course built in 1998 (once hosted a US am qualifier) is another that's in deep financial trouble. So much so that they couldn't even afford to renew their USGA course rating. Consequently we can't post scores from it anymore.

So I have the pleasure of playing with a lot of "average golfers" once a week and I know what they're capable of. There are 20 guys in our league and most of them are avid golfers who go on golf trips together and play in other leagues or on weekends, so we can't claim that they're the "once a month guys" that don't make a substantive financial impact on golf. Yet the median guy is still a 90 shooter. 18 hole league handicaps range from 2.7 to 25.4 and six guys are > 22. I'd say the quality of player is very typical of Michigan work leagues. Seems some posting in this thread have lost sight of what an average golfer really is.

[Sean2]

[quote name='duffer987' timestamp='1354854951' post='6030903']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354834475' post='6029289']
Bad design is bad design. That's a topic of its own. This is a thread of people whining about courses being too difficult.

[/quote]

That you cannot associate bad design with unaturally difficult golf holes, with no reasonable playable options for the 'average golfer' to enjoy the hole, pretty neatly sums up why you continue to bang the whining drum.

Underneath all of your juvenile, petty comments, lies the basic problem of you being unable to understand the argument.
I do not know if it is a lack of reading comprehension, or some more general problem, but obviously you will never be able to see past your myopic POV.

Thanks for that post, that should be all any of us need to realize there is no point continuing this debate with you.
[/quote]

Amen. It's not about whining, for the umpteenth time (sigh), it's about seeing the average golfer have a bit more fun on the golf course.

On the other hand, perhaps Mr. SurfDuffer is one of our junior members (he did say something about waaa, waaa, waaa, and running to your mommy), and as a teenager should be given the benefit of the doubt?

[Petethreeput]

I wish I had the work ethic and the natural ability to be as good as the posters who say this is whining.
I also, without doing the search, could probably find somewhere in their posting history that golf IS A LIFETIME game.
I cherish the times I get to play with my father.
I hope I get to do the same with my son.
I don't like that my golf trips with my father, which are also cherished (HI, Scotland, AZ, FLA, Mexico) wherever we decide to go weren't bunged up by weird "carry holes" that my "egotistic" father at age 80 can't clear, that weren't clearly demarcated on the scorecard.
I will lie in bed wishing I could be as bad a** the posters who post vitriol because they are so GD great at golf.
I believe unfair is not synonomous with challenging.
I also think for those who toot their own horn about how expensive a course is or isn't is the same person who blows on about personal importance. Price is not the issue, unless of course you can't truly afford it.
Golf is a game for all players, and modern courses aren't as accomdating.
Let your pathetic justifications spew forth.

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354829358' post='6028889']

What is this "Average" golfer??? Who is this guy??? Are these the people I see who can't advance the ball forward more than 120 yards per stroke.....who hit more shots sideways than forward.....who can't get the ball airborne???? Is this who we need to cater to???? Really???? These people aren't playing golf to begin with. Let them go to the miniature golf course, putt putt course, chip and putt or par three course. Bowling may be more up their alley. Better yet Bumper Bowling.
[/quote]

I never did get an answer to this question. Perhaps I am thick so some of you please humor me here and provide your answer as to what an "average" golfer.

After answering that one can someone please explain this concept of "unfair" to me????

Perhaps I'm just really dense cause it sounds to me like the point of this thread is that modern golf courses are unfair to people who suck at golf. Sounds like whining to me......but that's just me. What's worse is that you folks apparently want golf courses changed or built to accommodate these golfers that suck so as to not hurt their sensibilities.

I've lost a lot of golf balls in my days and put up plenty of scores well over 100 when I was starting out and never once did it occur to me that I was being unfairly treated by the golf course and the man who designed it. I just thought it was cause I sucked. Geez, I must be stubborn or something cause I took it as a challenge to improve. What's worse, I must be a masochist cause I actually enjoyed it despite losing golf balls and a few bucks to my buddies.

Life's just not fair folks. Its not fair that someone can't hit a golfball in the air. Its not fair that they put hazards down the right hand side where slicers will lose their ball. Its not fair that a hole requires you to hit over water. Its not fair. Its not fair. Its not fair. Waaa Waaaa WAAAAAAA!!!!!!!

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1354830619' post='6028985']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354829358' post='6028889']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1354820148' post='6028081']
If someone can't dribble the ball, and get throw it high enough to reach the basket, he's not playing basketball. However, the prevailing thoughts here suggest lowering the basketball hoop, as it's too difficult for short people or those that have weaknesses or inability. I have watched those same guys on relatively easy courses loose 3-10 balls in a round, so????
[/quote]

You nailed it in this one paragraph.

What is this "Average" golfer??? Who is this guy??? Are these the people I see who can't advance the ball forward more than 120 yards per stroke.....who hit more shots sideways than forward.....who can't get the ball airborne???? Is this who we need to cater to???? Really???? These people aren't playing golf to begin with. Let them go to the miniature golf course, putt putt course, chip and putt or par three course. Bowling may be more up their alley. Better yet Bumper Bowling.
[/quote]

Yes, because those golfers need to learn somehow. Unless you're a Tiger type who had an inherent ability at age 3, most new golfers do exactly as you've described. So why not design a course that those golfers can actually play without losing a dozen balls and taking 5.5 hours to play, but also is a good design for the better golfer?

HoganFan and I play on a league together at a course called Black Heath, which you wouldn't say is long from the blue tees, less than 3000 yards on the front 9. However, the 3rd hole is a par 3 that generally plays about 165 or so. Not long, right? Here's the hole:
[url="https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Blackheath+Golf+Club,+North+Rochester+Road,+Rochester,+MI&hl=en&ll=42.753898,-83.127354&spn=0.00206,0.005284&sll=42.689167,-83.121208&sspn=0.032996,0.084543&oq=blackheath&hq=Blackheath+Golf+Club,+North+Rochester+Road,+Rochester,+MI&t=h&z=18"]https://maps.google....er, MI&t=h&z=18[/url]

So you have carry over marsh, OB/Marsh left, long, and a very small bailout area to the right. In addition, the trees on the left stick out so much that you generally can't see the left 1/3rd of the green, so the "average" golfer who slices can't start the ball far enough left to have a chance at hitting it on.

I would say that on average, 1 out of 3 balls are lost on that hole, and there is ALWAYS a backup on this hole of at least one group. HUGE bottle neck. How is this good for anyone? But this is a perfect example of "modern" design.

Fill in the marsh so any topped shot won't be lost, cut back the trees so the slicers have a *chance*, and make the landing area larger. For the "good" players this will pretty much have zero affect, as they're not topping the ball anyway, right?
[/quote]

If it's the hole in the middle of the pic...somewhat diagonal, there is a forward tee box available for those that have no carry. Golf is about getting the ball airborne. There are plenty of putt-putt courses where people don't have to concern themselves with getting the up in the air.

How is it good... it shows the person that dumps multiple balls into the hazard, what they need to work on.

For those that can't hit the ball straight (I have plenty of friends that face that), they need to spend more time on the range. I get they have other life pressing issues, still, this is a game that requires a certain level of skill to feel accomplished. I just don't get people that argue the same premise over and over; golf courses are too challenging, and poor so and so. Again, its easy, move to tee boxers that fit the game. This is a persons problem, lets not make it the world of golfs problem, because some people are unwilling to either use better tee box judgment or allocate practice time with the express intent of improving their ability to control the ball.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354879940' post='6031751']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354829358' post='6028889']
What is this "Average" golfer??? Who is this guy??? Are these the people I see who can't advance the ball forward more than 120 yards per stroke.....who hit more shots sideways than forward.....who can't get the ball airborne???? Is this who we need to cater to???? Really???? These people aren't playing golf to begin with. Let them go to the miniature golf course, putt putt course, chip and putt or par three course. Bowling may be more up their alley. Better yet Bumper Bowling.
[/quote]

I never did get an answer to this question. Perhaps I am thick so some of you please humor me here and provide your answer as to what an "average" golfer.

After answering that one can someone please explain this concept of "unfair" to me????

Perhaps I'm just really dense cause it sounds to me like the point of this thread is that modern golf courses are unfair to people who suck at golf. Sounds like whining to me......but that's just me. What's worse is that you folks apparently want golf courses changed or built to accommodate these golfers that suck so as to not hurt their sensibilities.

I've lost a lot of golf balls in my days and put up plenty of scores well over 100 when I was starting out and never once did it occur to me that I was being unfairly treated by the golf course and the man who designed it. I just thought it was cause I sucked. Geez, I must be stubborn or something cause I took it as a challenge to improve. What's worse, I must be a masochist cause I actually enjoyed it despite losing golf balls and a few bucks to my buddies.

Life's just not fair folks. Its not fair that someone can't hit a golfball in the air. Its not fair that they put hazards down the right hand side where slicers will lose their ball. Its not fair that a hole requires you to hit over water. Its not fair. Its not fair. Its not fair. Waaa Waaaa WAAAAAAA!!!!!!!
[/quote]

Me too!!!!!!!!

All it takes for people that can't carry the ball 160yds (scary) is pick an easier course, right? Maybe they should do what I did for the first six-ten months. I "ONLY" played easy executive courses, up to when I had a semblance of directional control and could get the ball in the air. Why did I do it that way... I didn't want to embarrass myself on a regulation course. That's it... we have more people not wanting to embarrass themselves, but instead of raising up, they want the world of golf and... to come down to their level.

Why is that so hard for some people???? Oops, I forgot, I am not a "poor me" or "poor him" person that worry's about people that are able, but won't. When I stand on the practice range watching a "one" armed man hit balls reasonably well, getting the ball up in the air, and read about people arguing in defensive of someone just can't because... it makes me gag. But, that's me.

[Sean2]

[quote name='Petethreeput' timestamp='1354868297' post='6031519']
I wish I had the work ethic and the natural ability to be as good as the posters who say this is whining.
I also, without doing the search, could probably find somewhere in their posting history that golf IS A LIFETIME game.
I cherish the times I get to play with my father.
I hope I get to do the same with my son.
I don't like that my golf trips with my father, which are also cherished (HI, Scotland, AZ, FLA, Mexico) wherever we decide to go weren't bunged up by weird "carry holes" that my "egotistic" father at age 80 can't clear, that weren't clearly demarcated on the scorecard.
I will lie in bed wishing I could be as bad a** the posters who post vitriol because they are so GD great at golf.
I believe unfair is not synonomous with challenging.
I also think for those who toot their own horn about how expensive a course is or isn't is the same person who blows on about personal importance. Price is not the issue, unless of course you can't truly afford it.
Golf is a game for all players, and modern courses aren't as accomdating.
Let your pathetic justifications spew forth.
[/quote]

Pete, some folks just don't get it. I guess they're just too good for the hoi polloi. :-)

[SurfDuffer]

Quit your crying.

[mdgboxx]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354829358' post='6028889']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1354820148' post='6028081']
If someone can't dribble the ball, and get throw it high enough to reach the basket, he's not playing basketball. However, the prevailing thoughts here suggest lowering the basketball hoop, as it's too difficult for short people or those that have weaknesses or inability. I have watched those same guys on relatively easy courses loose 3-10 balls in a round, so????
[/quote]

You nailed it in this one paragraph.

What is this "Average" golfer??? Who is this guy??? Are these the people I see who can't advance the ball forward more than 120 yards per stroke.....who hit more shots sideways than forward.....who can't get the ball airborne???? Is this who we need to cater to???? Really???? These people aren't playing golf to begin with. Let them go to the miniature golf course, putt putt course, chip and putt or par three course. Bowling may be more up their alley. Better yet Bumper Bowling.
[/quote]

If just the two of us were somewhere, in the middle of nowhere, here's what I would answer: IMO, the average golfer brings in a card of less than 95. A good golfer is at ±90 to 85. A better golfer is at less than 85.

That said, if you play strictly by the Rules, you can pretty much forget about 4-4½ hrs rounds. That could be why the "average golfer" doesn't always comply. Pace of play, IMO, is more important to the "ag" than wasting time debating/arguing about the RoG on the course.

Are golf courses unfair to the "average golfer"?

There are courses that are curses to me but, are they unfair to someone who can handle them? IMO, No.

My goal in golf was to play 85 or better, just so I could play anywhere. with anybody, unafraid of slowing them down.

[SurfDuffer]

Perhaps a better thread for the original poster to create would be one arguing for more chip & putt courses and executive courses to accomodate these "average" golfers.

[Sean2]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354910180' post='6034437']
Quit your crying.
[/quote]

No one is crying SurfDuffer. I pity you though. Your level of immaturity is staggering and your selfishness is breathtaking. I wish you could feel a bit of empathy and compassion for your fellow golfers, who though they don't have your outstanding golf skills, love the game with the same passion.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Petethreeput' timestamp='1354868297' post='6031519']
I wish I had the work ethic and the natural ability to be as good as the posters who say this is whining.
I also, without doing the search, could probably find somewhere in their posting history that golf IS A LIFETIME game.
I cherish the times I get to play with my father.
I hope I get to do the same with my son.
I don't like that my golf trips with my father, which are also cherished (HI, Scotland, AZ, FLA, Mexico) wherever we decide to go weren't bunged up by weird "carry holes" that my "egotistic" father at age 80 can't clear, that weren't clearly demarcated on the scorecard.
I will lie in bed wishing I could be as bad a** the posters who post vitriol because they are so GD great at golf.
I believe unfair is not synonomous with challenging.
I also think for those who toot their own horn about how expensive a course is or isn't is the same person who blows on about personal importance. Price is not the issue, unless of course you can't truly afford it.
Golf is a game for all players, and modern courses aren't as accomdating.
Let your pathetic justifications spew forth.
[/quote]

Interesting line of thought that I agree with, least the family value aspects. I didn't get married till late in life, so I could build my business interests, and that allowed me to take up the game of golf at 40.

What's a bit confusing is your sig says 2.6; I am in that area as well and nearing 65. Curious how old you are, and how challenging the course is your handi is on?
Yep, golf is a game for all players, much like business. What its not is a game where courses need to be redesigned and rules need to be watered down for those that do not, for what ever the reason, put the time in to get better. Brings to mind redistribution of wealth for the entitled "I don't want put in the time" mind, but that's another subject.

Clearly, a great many people that play golf have limited interest in the game. Its for that reason, their opinion has IMO little value to the game of golf. That's not pathetic either. Its just different view then yours; undoubtedly comes from life experience, and the influences of doing what it takes to realize accomplishment.

What's bothersome is too many of the posters in this thread argue and insult, as if this is personal, yet you and some others claim to have reasonable games. Its whining because today, more then ever in my lifetime, people whine because of this or that is hard or unfair. Instead of taking the challenge face on, toughing up and bettering themselves, they opt for finding ways to make it easier on them and insulting others.

[jldavis73]

Perhaps instead of "unfair" the best word for the intent would've been "unfun" (which isn't really a word). I believe golf courses can be unfair. A local course had 2 par 3's that your LONG iron shot would not stay on the green if left anywhere on the front or left side. They would roll off, even after coming to rest, down a 30' hill. That's unfair. Probably doesn't occur too often. "Unfun" happens a lot. I feel like it's a combination of poor design and vanity. If the course has forced carries, tight driving holes, lots of water...move up. It's still golf. As seasoned players , it's up to us to encourage beginners and less skilled folks to play from tees that will allow them to ENJOY the game. When their ballstriking gets better, move back. Don't rush to do it, though. What if everyone played from the farthest tee up until they broke par? Then moved back? Pace of play would pick up. You'd have more players sticking to the game. Our membership fees might drop a bit and perhaps fewer courses would close. It's our own fault, this idea that golf must equate to torture. We shouldn't make tee boxes for men or women, young or old, simply skill level. Then no one's embarrassed to tee it forward.

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1354911278' post='6034557']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354910180' post='6034437']
Quit your crying.
[/quote]

No one is crying SurfDuffer. I pity you though. Your level of immaturity is staggering and your selfishness is breathtaking. I wish you could feel a bit of empathy and compassion for your fellow golfers, who though they don't have your outstanding golf skills, love the game with the same passion.
[/quote]

Are you now whining about me personally????? Quit crying already. Empathy???? Compassion???? Golf is a sport. Golf courses don't have emotions of empathy or compassion. A golf course can't help you or have compassion for you if you stink.

[Sean2]

[quote name='jldavis73' timestamp='1354914034' post='6034825']
Perhaps instead of "unfair" the best word for the intent would've been "unfun" (which isn't really a word). I believe golf courses can be unfair. A local course had 2 par 3's that your LONG iron shot would not stay on the green if left anywhere on the front or left side. They would roll off, even after coming to rest, down a 30' hill. That's unfair. Probably doesn't occur too often. "Unfun" happens a lot. I feel like it's a combination of poor design and vanity. If the course has forced carries, tight driving holes, lots of water...move up. It's still golf. As seasoned players , it's up to us to encourage beginners and less skilled folks to play from tees that will allow them to ENJOY the game. When their ballstriking gets better, move back. Don't rush to do it, though. What if everyone played from the farthest tee up until they broke par? Then moved back? Pace of play would pick up. You'd have more players sticking to the game. Our membership fees might drop a bit and perhaps fewer courses would close. It's our own fault, this idea that golf must equate to torture. We shouldn't make tee boxes for men or women, young or old, simply skill level. Then no one's embarrassed to tee it forward.
[/quote]

Sam Snead said that EVERYONE should play the forward tees until he can shoot par or better. Today I played nine form the middle tees and nine from the forward tees. I shot a 35 from the forward tees. While I think that is sage advice, no one will do it because of ego. I played nine from the forward tees because I wanted a change (I play my home course 99.999% of the time). It was fun for a number of reasons: 1) the course looked different; 2) I was hitting different clubs; and 3) it required different strategy on each hole than I usually put in play.

[Sean2]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354914334' post='6034853']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1354911278' post='6034557']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354910180' post='6034437']
Quit your crying.
[/quote]

No one is crying SurfDuffer. I pity you though. Your level of immaturity is staggering and your selfishness is breathtaking. I wish you could feel a bit of empathy and compassion for your fellow golfers, who though they don't have your outstanding golf skills, love the game with the same passion.
[/quote]

Are you now whining about me personally????? Quit crying already. Empathy???? Compassion???? Golf is a sport. Golf courses don't have emotions of empathy or compassion. A golf course can't help you or have compassion for you if you stink.
[/quote]

You're too funny.

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354879940' post='6031751']

Perhaps I'm just really dense
[/quote]

Perhaps.

[SteffanPErry]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1354332563' post='6003177']
[quote name='Truman' timestamp='1354329627' post='6002989']
Maybe the equipment changes are more marketing than science.
[/quote]
Sometimes I wonder.
[/quote]

I have a set of Cobra S3 Pro's and a set of old Powerbilt blade set my gampa used to use. Loft for loft they carry just about the same, the cobras are very slightly better, but they may have something to do with the fact they are newer and have been through 25 years of abuse?

[larrybud]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354834475' post='6029289']
Bad design is bad design. That's a topic of its own. This is a thread of people whining about courses being too difficult.

As for league play.......what is someone doing playing in a golf league if they can't carry a tiny little hazard like the one in your picture?
[/quote]

Are you kidding? Have you ever played in a golf league? 90% of the players play once a week. That IS the typical player in a golf league.

[larrybud]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354831238' post='6029049']
In the picture you posted there is clearly a forward tee box with no forced carry. If someone can't help topping the ball and can't carry that tiny area what the heck are they doing playing those back boxes????? You shouldn't have posted that pic.......you lost even more credibility for your post. That hole doesn't even look particularly difficult.
[/quote]
Those are the women's tees, about a 90 yard shot. All men's tees on that hole are forced carries.

[larrybud]

I think you guys have no clue as to what "average" is, but I do. I run a designed and programmed a golf league web site in which I have access to thousands of rounds of golf. I would say that golf leagues define the consummate "average" golfer, so I decided to run some scoring queries.

On my Tuesday league, front 9, par 35, average score since the start of our league there is 44.16 (+9.16). On the back, par 36, 45.89 (+9.89). Our of 32 different players we've had on the league in the last 7 years, 8 of them AVERAGE > 50 for 9. This is a course whose rating is 70.8/124. Not exactly a US Open!

On my Monday league, the average is 93.2 on a par 71 course, 69.3/119 course, which is a muni.

So that's your "average" golfer.

[Sean2]

[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1354918878' post='6035387']
I think you guys have no clue as to what "average" is, but I do. I run a designed and programmed a golf league web site in which I have access to thousands of rounds of golf. I would say that golf leagues define the consummate "average" golfer, so I decided to run some scoring queries.

On my Tuesday league, front 9, par 35, average score since the start of our league there is 44.16 (+9.16). On the back, par 36, 45.89 (+9.89). Our of 32 different players we've had on the league in the last 7 years, 8 of them AVERAGE > 50 for 9. This is a course whose rating is 70.8/124. Not exactly a US Open!

On my Monday league, the average is 93.2 on a par 71 course, 69.3/119 course, which is a muni.

So that's your "average" golfer.
[/quote]

And Larry, many of the modern courses I see from the middle tees slope out at around 124. You're talking 119. My home course from the middle tees is 124 and plays only 5400 yards. 124 and 5400 yards. You can imagine the hazards on this course. The back tees are 6000 and the slope is 127. Guests come and see the yardage and lick their chops. I say, "look at the slope". People say, "Man your handicap would be five points lower if you played regularly anywhere else!"

I've played courses at 6800 with a slope of 125. It's not the length it's the slope.

[SurfDuffer]

So by your stats the average golfer shoots around 90. Someone who can shoot 90 should not be having too much trouble on these phantom unfair courses. Definately should not have trouble with the hole pitured above that was deemed unfair. I think the "average" golfer the op's and many in this thread want to cater to is the 120 shooter.

[Pepperturbo]

Sorry Larry... but I am sure those of us that disagree, and see much of the banter here as whining, know what "average" means in the world of golf. I have said it more then once; I have friends that average 50 for 9 holes. That's on any difficult AND easy course, and they loose balls on both.

What's perplexing ABOUT arguments here, my friends (all over 50) don't see this subject the same as those of you that persist at arguing on their behalf. Sure they struggle.. but they know that's the game of golf, and accept it. Heck, one friend recently broke 90 on a rather difficult course; he was ecstatic, and so was I for him, as it really meant something. If he would have done that on a 119 slope course, there wouldn't have been much jumping up and down, because he knows the difference.

Slope 119 and 124 are too difficult?? There's a course in SoCA that from the White tees @6000yds is 131 slope and back tees are 6700+ at 140 that offers great fun. Fun being having to find a way to exhibit self-control and clear thinking to realized good scores. A problem, if one, courses like that demands attention to ones game, which many average golfers do not have or want, so they take the consequences; there's nothing wrong with that. Surely, they don't deserve courses designed for that frame of mind.

Here's the another question; if there are so many people that think like you, why then is that course rather busy with those average golfers. They should be voting with their wallets, if some of the views here regarding challenge were prevailing at golf courses.

[ryancjordan]

Man if stuff like "I don't care if people come out and play" or "its not my job to make the average golfer happy" is the attitude toward newcomers to the game, we are just doomed. How do people get to the point where they lose every single gram of awareness and just make them go "well its not going to benefit me so screw everyone else". It is just such a bizarre attitude. I feel like half of the posters in this thread are just like "sure, provide all the evidence you want that people are leaving the game because its too hard, but f*** you and your evidence and f*** them, I wanted to make a point and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. Whats that? You want facts from me? f*** you too". Seems to be what this discussion has boiled down to.

[hoganfan924]

Maybe a couple of you guys should write a letter to that entitled, whining apologist for the beginner and average player that hangs out in Columbus Ohio and demand that he stop running 12 hole events with an 8" diameter hole!