Wishon: The way golf clubs are being sold has harmed golf

[TomWishon]

[quote name='Vegaman' timestamp='1357695684' post='6193973']

I still think that the 85-100 shooter will play just as good with an off the shelf set as a custom set. High handicappers swings are so changeable that there is almost no base parameters to use, tempo, swingspeed stance etc is just not consistent enough. Basic fitting, like "off the shelf" fitting at a big box store is enough in my opinion. Actually I'm pretty sure of it. This goes for the majority of golfers, that play maybe ones per week in season and hit the range, what maybe twice per year? If that even?
[/quote]


Just for now, let's forget all the many testimonials from 85-100 shooters who have been correctly fit and have experienced improvement. I can see that you could form the opinion that testimonials do not count. So let's talk hard science instead.

Let me just give you one scientifically factual explanation for why off the rack clubs are actually preventing MANY of the 85-100 shooters from hitting the ball a little better. There are several but to keep this from being a book, let's just talk driver length.

As you are aware, from the 80s to now, the men's std off the rack driver length has increased from 43" to 46" and with a few companies, more than that. In engineering, we can measure the amount of load and stress that a golf club puts on the golfer and his swing motions when they swing the club. In terms of the load/stress of the golf club on the golfer, one of the basic scientific principles that defines this can be expressed as Load/Stress = the weight of the club times the length SQUARED.

That means any increase in length causes a far greater increase in load/stress on the golfer because the effect of length is a squared property.

Now think about the fact that drivers have increased in length from 43 to 46" and more. In terms of the increase in load/stress on the golfer's swing, that is an unbelievable increase. And what that does to the average 85-100 shooter is to start to cause him to break down things in his swing. I think you have to agree that most 85-100 shooters are not as good of a "golf athlete" as the low handicappers. That means the 85-100 shooter struggles neuro-muscularly to make the most important swing moves of an inside out to square path and a later release.

Hugely increase the stress/load of the driver on such lesser golf athletes and what you see is the golfers who fight going over the top and swing outside in tend to do that even more when the much longer length exerts its much higher stress/load on the golfer. In addition, hugely increase the stress/load of the driver on such lesser golf athletes and what you see is the golfers who struggle to hold their wrist-c o c k angle later on the downswing now tend to unhinge that angle sooner.

Vegaman, these are indisputable facts because they are proven by science. And this is not the only one when it comes to how std off the rack clubs are scientifically preventing the vast majority of the less skilled 85-100 shooters from being able to play as well as they could.

TOM

[TomWishon]

[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1357748514' post='6197069']

Go to any retirement community in Florida or Arizona. There are thousands of guys that have played their whole lives and now play 3 or 4 times a week. Most are in the 15 to 20+ handicap range. They hit the same shot over and over again and when they really miss, it is the same miss over and over. There swings are as grooved imperfections as the tour guys are grooved perfection.

[/quote]

To everyone who thinks the 85-100 shooters are too bad to benefit from fitting, this quote right here from The Pearl could not have been a better explanation for why full specs professional fitting can and does make a visible difference for the average golfers. Yes, the have poor swing characteristics. Yes they miss shots badly. But yes, many of these 85-100 shooters have grooved their mistakes. So this right here is how changing specs through proper fitting to reduce the severity of the poor shots can happen.

No they do not turn a slice into a draw. No they do not gain 30 yds. And no, they do not hit three times as many shots on center. But they do reduce the 20-30 yd slice to 5-15, they do typically gain 10 yds, and they do see a very measurable increase in off center hits. From that comes an overall improvement in play.

TOM

[The Pearl]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1357749517' post='6197163']
[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1357748514' post='6197069']
Go to any retirement community in Florida or Arizona. There are thousands of guys that have played their whole lives and now play 3 or 4 times a week. Most are in the 15 to 20+ handicap range. They hit the same shot over and over again and when they really miss, it is the same miss over and over. There swings are as grooved imperfections as the tour guys are grooved perfection.

[/quote]

To everyone who thinks the 85-100 shooters are too bad to benefit from fitting, this quote right here from The Pearl could not have been a better explanation for why full specs professional fitting can and does make a visible difference for the average golfers. Yes, the have poor swing characteristics. Yes they miss shots badly. But yes, many of these 85-100 shooters have grooved their mistakes. So this right here is how changing specs through proper fitting to reduce the severity of the poor shots can happen.

No they do not turn a slice into a draw. No they do not gain 30 yds. And no, they do not hit three times as many shots on center. But they do reduce the 20-30 yd slice to 5-15, they do typically gain 10 yds, and they do see a very measurable increase in off center hits. From that comes an overall improvement in play.

TOM
[/quote]

Tom,

I have your 919 driver, 11 degree, White S25 shaft, cut down 1 1/2 inches. My dad hit it 4 times. Each time, he got it up in the air, probably 10 - 20 yds longer, and in the fairway. Of course his reply, "That is way too short and light for me and I can't hit it that high down here in the wind!"

Got to love the old man.

He would not even swing my 560 MC's because those feel like a "feather".

You can't make this stuff up.

The stuff you see down there is amazing. I played with guy who shot about 105. He hit about 25 shots exactly the same, from the driver to the 9 iron. The ball would start out like a laser, dead straight and out about 60 yds and 10 feet off the ground would start a hard left hook that by the end would be rolling directly perpendicular to the target. The ball flight was like an F-15 pulling 9g's. I am convinced Tiger Woods would not replicate that shot, certainly not consistently. I visit twice a year. It is the highlight of my golf season. It is like entering golf's alternate universe. There is nothing like watching somebody aim 40 yds to the right from 125 yds out, come dead over the top and hit a laser 6 iron dead at the stick that never gets more than 6 feet off the ground, roll over the green, which is than followed by "I can't believe that Pro V1 did not hold!"

[TomWishon]

[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1357750846' post='6197267']

The stuff you see down there is amazing.
[/quote]

I hear you loud and clear. You know I am not that far away from retiring and I can tell you a few times I have thought about Mary Ellen and I moving to one of these retirement golf communities so I could have the chance to spread the faith to the golfers you have seen and speak about here!

On the other hand, I also know human nature and as my Dad told me years ago, "son you can't get bothered by all the people you meet who live on the basis of [b]"Don't confuse me with the facts because my mind's already made up."[/b] And it is probably a fact that a lot of the retirees you speak about operate on that basis!!

TOM

[The Pearl]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1357751357' post='6197319']
[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1357750846' post='6197267']
The stuff you see down there is amazing.
[/quote]

I hear you loud and clear. You know I am not that far away from retiring and I can tell you a few times I have thought about Mary Ellen and I moving to one of these retirement golf communities so I could have the chance to spread the faith to the golfers you have seen and speak about here!

On the other hand, I also know human nature and as my Dad told me years ago, "son you can't get bothered by all the people you meet who live on the basis of [b]"Don't confuse me with the facts because my mind's already made up."[/b] And it is probably a fact that a lot of the retirees you speak about operate on that basis!!

TOM
[/quote]

These golfers would be ground zero for what you are trying to accomplish with your company. The problem is that my Dad is like most of his golfing pals. They would rather win a $10 skin from their buddies than shoot 79. As I said, it is bizzaro world golf.

[TomWishon]

To NPVWhiz:

I got the message and your post to my post to Vegaman, but I can't find your post on the thread. Anyway, let me explain what we did in our work to determine that the longer length drivers do put more stress on the golfer and force him to work harder to swing that longer length.

That formula I offered of Stress/Load = the mass of the club times the length squared is really a practical application of the formula for calculating the Moment of Inertia of the whole golf club. As you are a scientist you know this formula is really the SUM of all the mass times radius of rotation squared of the object for which you want to know its MOI.

When working with the MOI of the fully assembled golf club we have to define the axis of rotation, from which the radius of rotation can then be quantified. In our studies we looked at both the spine and the wrist-c o c k release as both being pertinent axes of rotation for calculating the MOI of the fully assembled golf club during the swing.

For this study of what the length does to the golfer, we chose the axis of rotation to be the golfer's spine. We chose this because during the swing, we rotate back and then down about our spine as the axis of rotation for the spine. Therefore to calculate the MOI of the club, we used the spine at the base of the golfer's neck as the actual position from which we then could measure the radius of rotation to the CG of the clubhead at the end of the shaft of the club at the top of the backswing and during the swing.

Thus as length increases the distance of the head's CG to the spine at the base of the neck increases, hence the radius of rotation increases with longer length.

The basics of MOI state that as the MOI of an object increases, it takes more effort to put that object into motion to rotate about its defined axis of rotation. So the application of using the MOI of the golf club in this study is to say that as the MOI of the club increases greatly from longer length, it takes the golfer a lot more effort to swing the club. When the golfer has to use more effort to swing the club, from the standpoint of making the swing that is the same thing as the club putting more stress on the golfer due to the club's much higher MOI.

In the MOI formula of MOI = the sum of the mass times the radius of rotation squared, for golf swing purposes we can say the mass is the weight of the whole club at each position along the length, and we can say the radius of rotation is the length of the club. Hence as the club length increases, that is a squared property and as such length increases have a very significant effect on the MOI of the club. And as the MOI of the club increases greatly, that causes the golfer to have to make more and more of an effort to swing that longer length.

Hope this explains things better,

TOM

Hence this is an overview of how we used the assembled club MOI

[Jamboy72]

I think this is an exceptionally worthy and wonderful conversation to endeavor...and I'm not sure how many people would be interested, but I'd be more than happy to run a comparison between and OEM fitting and a custom Wishon fitting...I happen to live in Colorado and would be happy to make travel arrangements to Durango or one of Tom's certified fitters.....I have all of my clubs, which have been OEM fit and, like many of you, I'd be interested to see how this set performs when compared to a set which is custom fit...knowing that this is process which would require more than a couple range sessions and rounds, I'd be willing to carry out this experiment over the course of the 2013 golf season...thoughts? ideas?

[Imp]

Tom, how does swingweight factor into MOI (if it does at all) since although drivers have become longer, standard SW for drivers remains around D2?

--kC

[bluedot]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1357749517' post='6197163']
[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1357748514' post='6197069']
Go to any retirement community in Florida or Arizona. There are thousands of guys that have played their whole lives and now play 3 or 4 times a week. Most are in the 15 to 20+ handicap range. They hit the same shot over and over again and when they really miss, it is the same miss over and over. There swings are as grooved imperfections as the tour guys are grooved perfection.

[/quote]

To everyone who thinks the 85-100 shooters are too bad to benefit from fitting, this quote right here from The Pearl could not have been a better explanation for why full specs professional fitting can and does make a visible difference for the average golfers. Yes, the have poor swing characteristics. Yes they miss shots badly. But yes, many of these 85-100 shooters have grooved their mistakes. So this right here is how changing specs through proper fitting to reduce the severity of the poor shots can happen.

No they do not turn a slice into a draw. No they do not gain 30 yds. And no, they do not hit three times as many shots on center. But they do reduce the 20-30 yd slice to 5-15, they do typically gain 10 yds, and they do see a very measurable increase in off center hits. From that comes an overall improvement in play.

TOM
[/quote]

This to me is EXACTLY the point of proper equipment. Anybody who knows golf knows that it is a game of misses, and the better your misses the better you play.

That does NOT mean your handicap is going to come down a lot; as I've tried to point out earlier, that's based on your BEST rounds, which means the rounds when your misses were, by definition fewer and better anyway.

But in those other 10 rounds out of every 20, the average score might easily come down by 4 or 5 shots. A ball stays a few feet inbounds, or stays dry by a few feet, or misses a bunker by a few feet, or is a few feet closer to the pin so that there isn't a three putt.

In other words, the 85-100 shooter might well not become a 80-100 shooter. But he might become an 85-95 shooter, and that's worth it for me.

[WVP]

Tom - again, thanks for being on here and taking the time to answer questions with so much detail. This is long and rambling a bit so I will make it two separate posts...

I think being a bit more lenient with your distribution model/philosophy could get your product into more hands, without compromising the idea of properly fit clubs. I live very close to a Wishon dealer - this is the place where I get my grips done and other club work, albeit reluctantly lately as I feel his prices are just way too high. I feel like he's making prices up in his head when I ask how much.....but being in his vicinity I will assume I see more Wishon clubs in bags than most WRX members. With that said, I feel the market you are reaching is very small and perhaps not ideal. Guys with Wishon clubs tend to be one or more of the following:

[b]1. Completely new to the game.[/b]

When I first wanted to play golf in my mid twenties, I needed clubs of course. Can't play without 'em. I made a few ebay purchases quickly, including a set of X20's and later that year found out through this local fitter that they were knockoff's (verified by Callaway customer service). Had no idea at that point that there was even a counterfeit club market. With a sinking feeling in my stomach, I walked out of that shop with a Wishon 785 3 hybrid and 4-SW component irons. Great hybrid head btw, extremely hot face. But later I find GolfWRX and get a comprehensive understanding of the market and what's available. I find that the component heads were a few bucks/head and the shafts were no longer even made, so I'm not sure how old they were. 21 degree 4 iron by the way. Nothing wrong with the set but the price I paid made me feel sick compared to the cost.

[b]2. Oblivious to what the options are, and trustworthy. Could be a good or not so good golfer, doesn't matter.[/b]

Along the same lines of my experience above, every time I walk into this shop the guy starts about the lofts of irons and too-long drivers. He is right but it is also a sales pitch. He will scoff at the latest products from Taylormade, Callaway etc. He's often right about that as well.

My dad is not a golfer but is the type that always wants to follow the expert, or the authority or the law. If he played golf and walked into this fitter's shop he'd walk out of there with a full set of new clubs. And he would pay whatever the guy was charging.

Now this is not necessarily a bad thing, just an observation on this buyer.

[b]3. Serious golfers who thoroughly know their options and still choose Wishon. Unaffected or know's better than to get caught up in the big OEM marketing.[/b]

This group exists, there are quite a few on WRX but rare in real life. This is the smallest group though, from my experience. Group 2 is who I usually see on the course, the kinda quirky guy that has no brand preference but just happened to walk into that golf shop. Just likes playing golf and doesn't get too caught up in or obsess over equipment or what's new or on tour. Or it's someone that bought their clubs when new to the game and are now in group 2.


None of this is meant to be offensive - I am a big fan of some of your designs and would probably have bought more if I felt better about the fitter and his prices. Again this is a matter of who you're reaching....

[WVP]

On the business model...

I've read many times here someone wanting a Wishon club or wanting to try them out but doesn't live close to a dealer. Or they've had a bad experience with the dealer - on that note I've seen a few too many Wishon dealers also touting that clone heads are the same as OEM but cheaper. Right or wrong that gives me the impression of a second class operation.

With that said, is there any thought to using a combination of a web-fitting program similar to what Ping offers and Scratch's purchasing system? I would guarantee that you would see WRX'ers buying from your site if that was available. Word of mouth would increase as would credibility as I can guarantee WRX'ers are the guy whose friends ask for equipment advice (for better or worse).

There are some here that are OEM brainwashed and fall for the marketing every year. But at least most know about bag composition, what the lowest loft iron they're comfortable with, gap wedging, what size and type grips they like, a shaft that works for them, basically the majority of your fitting criteria (probably why many scoff at the idea of paying big dollar for a full fitting).

I think the combination of fitting the player like this:

[attachment=1484283:untitled1.JPG]

and letting them purchase like this:

[attachment=1484307:untitled.JPG]

...would get the golfer what they needed and, if direct from Wishon, built to your high standards (which I know is one of your concerns of selling heads). Personally I would much rather operate this way and not have an icky feeling about what I'm getting marked up. As from my experiences, the mark up from this type of business is quite murky. It would also make your product 100% available.

Would love to know your thoughts.

[TomWishon]

[quote name='WVP' timestamp='1357846668' post='6204881']
With that said, is there any thought to using a combination of a web-fitting program similar to what Ping offers and Scratch's purchasing system? I would guarantee that you would see WRX'ers buying from your site if that was available. Word of mouth would increase as would credibility as I can guarantee WRX'ers are the guy whose friends ask for equipment advice (for better or worse).

...would get the golfer what they needed and, if direct from Wishon, built to your high standards (which I know is one of your concerns of selling heads). Personally I would much rather operate this way and not have an icky feeling about what I'm getting marked up. As from my experiences, the mark up from this type of business is quite murky. It would also make your product 100% available.

Would love to know your thoughts.
[/quote]

First of all, some of the posts make it sound like the independent custom clubmakers who are not quite as knowledgeable as the cream of the crop fitters are going to deliver a bad set of clubs to golfers who go see them to be fit. THAT IS TOTALLY WRONG when you are talking about the MILLIONS of golfers who shoot between 85-100. There are something like 14 million golfers in the US that are what the National Golf Foundation calls "the core golfers." These are the golfers who play much more frequently, who spend money on the game and drive the golf economy.

Of that 14 million something like 8-9 million shoot between 85-100. Very few are the sub 80 and low 70s shooters. Send a sub 80 shooter into a shop where the clubmaker has been studying fitting technology for 2 yrs or less and yes, that guy may very well walk away with no visible improvement from the fitting. But send the 8 million 85-100 shooters into the intermediate level clubmaker's shop and I will bet you that 3 out of 4 times, that 85-100 shooter walks away happy as heck with the level of shot improvement he just got.

Because the improvements capable for the 85-100 from even basic, simple fitting changes are remarkable. And that is because the sum total of the standard off the rack club specs do very definitely prevent most of the 85-100 shooters from playing to the best of their ability. Fitting to correct for these things is EASY for the intermediate level fitter to do.

So let's get one thing very straight here - It does not take a super fitter to bring about game improvement for the VAST majority of golfers who love to play this game. And I can quite assure that the fitters on my Find a Clubfitter locator as well as the clubfitters on both the AGCP and ICG clubmaker locators on their web sites can easily and readily help the average golfer gain improvement from a fitting session.

TOM (I'll answer your other questions about the business model separately)

[TomWishon]

[quote name='WVP' timestamp='1357846668' post='6204881']

With that said, is there any thought to using a combination of a web-fitting program similar to what Ping offers and Scratch's purchasing system? I would guarantee that you would see WRX'ers buying from your site if that was available. Word of mouth would increase as would credibility as I can guarantee WRX'ers are the guy whose friends ask for equipment advice (for better or worse).

Would love to know your thoughts.
[/quote]

There is no question that the distribution model of custom fit clubs built from any company's component clubheads, shafts and grips is fragmented when compared to off the rack retail golf equipment distribution. There now are something like 14,000 retail golf outlets which exist because each OEM spends millions to tens of millions of dollars and more each year in their marketing, which in turn drives consumers to the doors of these 14,000 outlets. Create real demand for your product like that and you will have tons of people knocking down your door wanting to fulfill that demand.

The ideal situation would be if a company like mine had say, a low 8 figure capital investment so we could hire and extensively train all our own fitters who then would run fitting facilities in 70 cities that we would pay for, each with adequate regional marketing behind it, plus national marketing to canvas the entire country. That's a serious investment to create and build to a payoff point, but it most definitely could be done because there are enough golfers who can be convinced that custom is better than standard off the rack, if you can hammer home that message loudly enough. Anyone with that kind of money who wants to set the mainstream golf industry on its ear, give me a call.

Your suggestion of us selling custom fit clubs direct to golfers would cut our throat with the serious custom clubmakers who buy clubheads, shafts and grips from us. The clubmakers would see this as us going behind their backs to sell clubs to consumers that they should be serving. The clubmakers would respond by taking their business elsewhere and there we'd be. Here again, if we had 7 figures in the bank to support the company during the period of transition from losing all the clubmakers' business to building up a direct sales model to replace it - that probably could be done. Or if the retailers all knew that your ability to generate demand meant that they need you more than you need them, then a direct sales model could be done. That's how any of the big companies do it.

I will also be the first to tell you that "fitting from afar", AKA fitting on line, may not be as accurate as fitting in person.

No question I can create a superb series of questions for a golfer to answer that would lead me or someone with close to my fitting knowledge to be able to make fitting spec decisions that would end up giving most average golfers a much better set than they could ever hope to buy at a big chain golf store or pro shop.

But in some cases, even with me doing the fitting decisions, it would not be as successful as a face to face fitting analysis with a reasonably good clubfitter. And the chance of an online fitting being superb for a 2 hdcp player who relies chiefly on his FEEL to know what clubs work the best ? Nope. We definitely could fit 85-100 shooters from afar through a fill in the blank form and end up with a LOT of them gaining overnight improvement. But it is tough to do a fitting from afar with the good player. If they knew their specs and did not want fitting advice, piece of cake to deliver precisely what they ask for.

Put it this way - take 100 golfers who shoot 85-100 and put them through a good online fitting and 50 will definitely walk away with visible improvement. Take that same 100 golfers and send them to a decent fitter's shop and 80 will likely walk away with visible improvement.

Bottom line is that the cure for the fragmentation in the clubfitting industry is MONEY. At present this is sort of a Catch 22 situation. It's the old adage of "you have to have money to make money."

Few of the component companies have even close to the amount of money necessary to muster up a marketing campaign that could generate a good bit more demand for custom fitting or demand for the component company's brand. Of the two component companies that do have enough money to embark on a reasonable marketing campaign, one is only concerned with selling as many of their components as they can to any Tom, Dick or Harry with a credit card, regardless if he's not sure what end of the shaft goes into the head. The other one sees their component division as a distraction to their far larger retail golf business so they're never going to lift a finger to help perpetuate demand for fitting.

If you run a component company, your first challenge is to market to the CLUBMAKERS to get them to buy your products over the components of some other company. It would be only after that is secure that you could think about marketing to consumers. But even then you have to decide, "Do we market OUR BRAND to the consumers, or do we market the tangible benefits of being custom fit and hope the clubmaker they go to uses our components."

I've actually had a clubmaker call me and say, "Tom, I have a golfer who came to me because he read one of your books. I'm building him a set with Maltby's heads and I have a question about a part of the fitting I thought you could help me with."

Seriously - this has happened more than you can imagine.

If you try to market your brand, WOW, that would be like a spit in the ocean up against the brand marketing of the OEMs. Who would listen to your faint whispers against the 100 Db shouts of the OEMs?

If you market the benefits of fitting, at least there you have a chance to get a seed planted in the back of a golfer's brain. So that maybe one day the light goes on and he says, "You know that type of fitting does make total sense, so maybe I should try to find a good fitter."

So that's where it's at.

In the end it is very simple. . . .

Do you go to the big box golf store where the $10/hr kid spends 20 mins with you to sell you something off the rack, do you just blindly go to someone who says they can fit, or do you take the time to research who the best, most knowledgeable fitter near you is.

What person would contract for services with a Doctor, Lawyer, Mechanic, Accountant, Electrician, Plumber, Carpenter, or any other trades person without doing some research to find out if they are any good? No one. So do the research to find a fitter and you'll be glad you did. Shoot PM me and ask me who is any good in your area? There might not be anyone. if so, I will tell you that. If there is one, I will tell you that too.

TOM

[kloyd0306]

[quote name='topekareal' timestamp='1357837534' post='6203863']
I think this is an exceptionally worthy and wonderful conversation to endeavor...and I'm not sure how many people would be interested, but I'd be more than happy to run a comparison between and OEM fitting and a custom Wishon fitting...I happen to live in Colorado and would be happy to make travel arrangements to Durango or one of Tom's certified fitters.....I have all of my clubs, which have been OEM fit and, like many of you, I'd be interested to see how this set performs when compared to a set which is custom fit...knowing that this is process which would require more than a couple range sessions and rounds, I'd be willing to carry out this experiment over the course of the 2013 golf season...thoughts? ideas?
[/quote]

Your idea of comparison fits this post, however, how would you define an "OEM fitting"?

It is possible to order a set of irons on line using available options (length, lie, shaft flex, shaft weight, shaft material and grip size) - BUT WHO IS DOING THE PHYSICAL MEASURING?

Karsten/Ping offers advice re fitting and Mizuno makes suggestions with their Optimizer. Who else offers similar tools?

Tom's "Search for the Perfect Golf Club" makes a valid point regarding the variety (and quality) of fitting available. You can take your car to the carwash and get a rinse or upgrade to a wash and wax (then vacuum the inside yourself) - or you can get your car detailed.

The fitter who "eyeballs" you and says: "You're average height so standard is close enough" is just like getting your car hosed down.

The fitter who takes some basic measurements and puts you into a solid playing position to check spine angles, knee flex angles, statically check lie angles and grip size - even before swinging a club - is the type of fitter who is at least semi-serious about his role. He is aware that we are all different and wants me to own clubs that will work best for my game.

Which OEMs offer that kind of basic attention?

In other words - who are you going to trust to measure before placing your order.

[jmvargas]

something hit me just now..

...club fitters like mr. wishon's and others may be compared to the boutique "couture" fashion houses of the past like Dior, Chanel, etc...that did personal fittings and custom-made clothes for their clients many of whom were rich and famous...

...OEMs are the signature designers of today who have their products available off the rack at various high end and mid-level stores around the globe...you can have your clothes altered to fit in many of these outlets for additional fees..

the latter have increased in number/volume at the expense of the former..

[e fudd]

So when does a golfer get fitted? I understand that a great golfer and a horrible golfer may have the same swing speed. But obviously the more skilled golfer has a better idea of how to dynamically apply his swing speed to the golf ball in order to achieve maximum velocity upon impact. Should we be fitting golfers to their current, non-dynamic approach? Or should we wait until the golfer has at least an inkling as to how to compress a golf ball? The whole fitting process seems a bit ridiculous when it comes to a golfer who is in the early stages of understanding of how to effectively strike a golf ball.

[Imp]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1357853904' post='6205629']
If you try to market your brand, WOW, that would be like a spit in the ocean up against the brand marketing of the OEMs. Who would listen to your faint whispers against the 100 Db shouts of the OEMs?[/QUOTE]Have you heard how artists (Music, photo, painting) are bypassing the known method of brick and mortar and doing all their business online now? Where they couldn't get a foot in the door yesterday, they're making sales today just through working online, forums like this being a prime example. It doesn't take a huge marketing blitz these days. Just come carefully placed exposure. How much business do you WANT? What's your breaking point where you have [i]too many[/i] orders and quality or delays start happening?

[QUOTE]What person would contract for services with a Doctor, Lawyer, Mechanic, Accountant, Electrician, Plumber, Carpenter, or any other trades person without doing some research to find out if they are any good? No one. So do the research to find a fitter and you'll be glad you did. [/quote]And where do you find these reviews these days? In person or on the web?

--kC

[bunkeru2k]

Tom,

I do not think the previous posters were really hinting at sales being directed at the core of your 85-100 shooters. There are many out there who know SPECIFICALLY what we want and want to assemble ourselves. The problem being, we cannot order your product because we are not clubfitters. lets be honest here....I am not spending $100 for a fitting and another $100+ to buy a wedge when I know I specifically want to buy a 52 degree micro-tour, bend it out to 54 with 7 degrees of bounce, I want to put an FST hi-rev shaft in it, playing at 35.5", and I intend to do a minor heel grind. Now there is no reason for me to spend that with your company when I can buy an off the rack OEM and do all the same things for a MUCH lower price.

Now the effects of that mean I am going to be playing a Vokey wedge like everyone else and that advances your fitting clause zero. The alternative is that you have some type of option for the thousands of capable people like that to order some products and actually know enough about their specifics and preferences, that can spine and FLO and assemble like it should be done, to game your product. When that happens and you are gaming equipment people have not seen before, then they take the time at some point to Google search for Wishon clubs and hit your site. That is where they get your message.....otherwise you are never going to reach your target market at all. Your clubfitters might be pissy for a bit, but in the long run it will increase their visibility as demand rises.

[ultra45]

This has been a pretty interesting thread so far...

as far as fitting the better players and thrillhouse's comments... i'm far from a better player but see exactly where he coming from... through trial/error i have a pretty good idea what works for me and when things are slightly off can figure them out and still shoot reasonable scores.. but if a "good" fitting put me closer to the hole then i would have a statistical better chance at holing the putt. which may in turn lead to 1 or 2 shots per round. Not night/day improvements but can be the difference between winning/losing a tournament.

as for the business model... that's why i'm currently at a big box store... some golfers don't see the value in the fitting experience, especially when they find out the true value of some of the components. I had seriously considered my own clubmaking business decided it would not be feasible in the market i was in.

But now back to what thrillhouse was saying... if someone comes to me in the box store... not a "cream of the crop" fitter but fairly knowledgeable... would there be a significant improvement in the setup i help get them into vs the complete custom build?

[WVP]

[quote name='ultra45' timestamp='1357914083' post='6209295']
But now back to what thrillhouse was saying... if someone comes to me in the box store... not a "cream of the crop" fitter but fairly knowledgeable... would there be a significant improvement in the setup i help get them into vs the complete custom build?
[/quote]

I would say if you get L/L/L, a grip they like and pretty damn close on the shaft - then place the order to the OEM custom, then I'd say you've done pretty well. If you're just giving them stiff or regular then that's not much...that's for irons.

What's the usual procedure for you?

Tom, great responses! Obvious that you have a thorough grasp on the market, and really I don't desire to debate, more of an observation and an idea. Busy day so I'll drop back in this weekend....

[ultra45]

as for process...It really depends on the customer and what they want... we have a mizuno shaft optimizer and a couple other fit carts... the focus is usually on shaft and lie since that is what i have access to with the carts and work with them from there. The monitors we use are far from trackman but they do provide decent data for our purposes.

the reality is i'm in a market where a lot of the customers would rather buy the $400 clearance set off the rack and have us tweak the lie if needed than custom order something current to the specs they actually need.

but in all honestly... the tips i give them during the process probably gets them hitting the new club better than the fit itself.



edit... another big thing is actually having the specs checked... a lot of oem's are all over the map relative to what their standard is supposed to be.. and IMO.. a consistent set will benefit the average golfer just as well

[TomWishon]

[quote name='Imp' timestamp='1357908499' post='6208895']

And where do you find these reviews these days? In person or on the web?

--kC
[/quote]

1. Start here by looking at any of these three clubmaker locators on the web:

The AGCP (Association of Golf Clubfitting Professionals) - [url="http://www.agcpgolf.com/locator/"]http://www.agcpgolf.com/locator/[/url]

The ICG (International Clubmakers’ Guild) - [url="http://www.clubmakersguild.com/index.php/membership-directory/guild-google-map"]http://www.clubmakersguild.com/index.php/membership-directory/guild-google-map[/url]

The TWGT Clubmaker Locator at - [url="http://wishongolf.com/find-a-clubfitter/"]http://wishongolf.com/find-a-clubfitter/[/url]

2. If you find one in your area from any of these three locators, go see him or call him. Ask him how he does a fitting analysis. How thorough is he? How much time does he spend with you? Can you hit test clubs? What is his policy for after the fit service - if the clubs are not quite right, will he keep working with you to get them right? And here is a big one - ask him for names of some of the golfers in your area he has fit so you can contact them and ask them for their impressions of their fitting experience.

3. If you know or hang around a lot of golfers in your area, ask them if they have been fit by this person or know him.

Takes a little bit of work, but if you do this, you will cover the bases pretty well.

TOM

[TomWishon]

[quote name='e fudd' timestamp='1357862478' post='6206483']
So when does a golfer get fitted?

Should we be fitting golfers to their current, non-dynamic approach? Or should we wait until the golfer has at least an inkling as to how to compress a golf ball?

The whole fitting process seems a bit ridiculous when it comes to a golfer who is in the early stages of understanding of how to effectively strike a golf ball.
[/quote]

1. For the Beginning Golfer or Golfers Shooting Over 100

a. Driver NEVER longer than 43 to 43.5" - (he'll learn to hit it with reasonable consistency sooner than anything longer)
b. Fwy Woods - 5 wood and 7 wood not longer than 41/40 respectively - (nothing of lower loft than that until they show the skill to hit a lower loft wood consistently up to fly off the deck)
c. Iron Set - 4 & 5 Hybrid + #6 iron to wedges

If the first set of a beginner or a >100 shooter were more like this, their learning curve would be faster and they would benefit sooner from lessons.

2. Once the golfer is breaking 100, he now is at a point that his swing mistakes and poor shots are more consistent and repeating. Once the golfer is at that point, now he can benefit from a full on fitting analysis and custom fit set which pinpoint the specs which address his swing errors and shot mistakes.

TOM

[TomWishon]

[quote name='WVP' timestamp='1357915555' post='6209439']

What's the usual (fitting) procedure for you?

[/quote]

(The following is a general overview of the bare bones approach to a basic full fitting analysis - for GOOD players or players with definite FEEL preferences and perceptions, there will be other things we will do in addition to the following)

1. Talk to the golfer and ask about his own assessment of his game, strengths and weaknesses, poor shot tendencies, what HE thinks are the areas in which he needs to improve the most with his clubs and shots. Make the golfer as relaxed as possible. Ask the golfer if they have specific elements of the feel of golf clubs that they notice or not (total weight, headweight, shaft) and what their preferences are, if they have such.

2. Ask the golfer to hit a few shots to warm up starting with the short iron, moving to mid iron, hybrid, then fwy wood. No more than 12-15 balls so the ongoing ball striking of the fitting won't wear him out. Most avg golfers have about 30-35 shots in them before they start to wear out. Shots are hit with the launch monitor on but you do not make a point of telling him or showing him the LM data yet. You just get him to relax and simply warm up.

While he is hitting balls, quietly observe these things without making a big deal to the golfer: 1) clubhead speed range with the different clubs; 2) general ball flight shape/trajectory/missed shot tendencies; 3) if the launch monitor measures swing path and face angle and angle of attack, note the range for all; 4) transition and tempo force; 5) point of wrist-c o c k release; 6) whether you think his swing errors/poor shot tendencies are consistent enough that a full fitting is warranted or whether he should work more on lessons before being fully fit.

Let the golfer take a break while you take some of his existing clubs to measure specs. This allows the golfer to rest and also see that you are a serious golf club technician which is important for the golfer's confidence in your skills. You only need to measure various specs for certain clubs - 1) Driver - length, loft, face angle, swingweight. Note the shaft model/flex. If this is a good player or a late release player, you can note the bend profile measurement of the shaft on the TWGT software. 2) FWY WOODS - note their set makeup, check length of the 3w or longest wood, if the shaft is the same or different than the driver. 3) IRON SET (hybrids) - note if and how many hybrids they have, what lofts they are - measure the length of one hybrid, note its swingweight, note the shaft model/flex. 4) IRON SET (irons) - note what is their lowest number iron, check length, loft, lie, shaft model/flex, total weight, swingweight of 5 & 7 irons & PW/GW. 5) WEDGES - note the set makeup, lofts, quickly assess bounce and sole width; 6) PUTTER - check lie, length, loft, and sole angle (Yes, putters can have a sole angle that can make them sit funny sometimes);

While you are measuring specs, so the golfer is not bored, ask him to tell you his impressions, his experience, with the clubs - what he likes, dislikes, what HIS perceptions are for the clubs (if he has any).

At this point, the GOOD fitter now has everything in his brain that he needs to know to be able to make a starting recommendation for the fitting specs of the full set. he knows the golfer's swing characteristics that relate to the fitting elements, he knows the golfer's shot tendencies (strengths and weaknesses) and along with the golfer's self assessment of where HE thinks he needs the most improvement, you know what to focus on.

It works like this. . . . .

There are 5 areas that clubfitting changes can elicit improvement for the golfer.

1. DISTANCE
2. ACCURACY
3. SHOT CONSISTENCY
4. TRAJECTORY/BALL FLIGHT SHAPE
5. THE ELEMENTS OF FEEL

Of all the fitting specs of the golf clubs, some have more of a bearing on each of these game improvement elements than do others. The GOOD clubfitter knows exactly what specs have the most effect on each of these 5 game improvement elements and which fitting specs have nothing to do with each of these 5 elements.

The good clubfitter now follows the process to . . . 1) note which of these 5 game improvement elements YOU feel would help the golfer the most AND which areas the golfer himself prioritizes - between you two, make a final decision for which game improvement elements you will focus on the most to get the most final benefit for the golfer; 2) Look at the specs of the golfer's existing clubs you measured to see if any of these specs are a hindrance to achieving the game improvement elements that you are prioritizing; 3) Reference all you have observed about the golfer's swing characteristics for how these swing elements affect the decisions for each fitting spec. 4) Make your initial recommendation for what the set makeup and fitting specs should be for each club in the recommended set makeup;

From here the fitting can take two directions. . .

1. If the clubmaker has a way to set up test clubs instantly for hit testing (Spiralock or Connex connector systems) he now uses these fitting devices to built test clubs which have the fitting specs ordained from your analysis.

2. if such a connection system is not used, the clubmaker now would build a test club(s) and ask the golfer to come back for a second session in which the test clubs are hit, the clubmaker observes the results and asks the golfer for feedback. Minor adjustments can be made while the golfer hits the test club(s) (headweight, lie etc). But the point of the test club session is to nail down the fitting specs based on interaction between the clubfitter's knowledge and the golfer's feedback.

3. A final decision is then made on the specs. The club(s) are built. If irons/wedges are included, when the golfer comes to pick them up, that is when the dynamic lie test and final bending is done to ensure proper lie angles.

Guys, obviously a whole book can be written on this so PLEASE do not go ape telling me that I didn't do this or didn't do that. (Hey, I did write a book on this stuff - all 488 pages of it) This is simply a BASIC overview of a fitting analysis as it should be done so as to get the best results.

For sure though if you have questions, do ask.

TOM

[mwmgolfx]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1357358361' post='6171249']
We keep going around in circles with this on this site and we continue to get nowhere with the whole thing.

The question everyone continues to ask is "how will custom fitting improve my game" and all they get in return is a bunch of vague answers purporting potential benefits.

When a car company claims their car is safer the consumer asks for the data, when a pharmaceutical company says their pill works better the consumer asks for the data. To those in the golf industry who expect consumers to purchase their product over that of the oem I think it's time we as consumers demand the same thing. Wanna say your product is better that what the big firms are offering? Prove it, give us some quantifiable evidence.

I want to see hard data that proves that clubs from a custom clubmaker perform better than both fit clubs and off the rack clubs from an oem. As a consumer who is being told that this is the case I feel I have a right to see the evidence.
[/quote]

I don't know about hard data but I can tell you my experience. And its informative.

I decided to get fit for clubs (was 17+ handicap at the time - varying between 16 and 18+ depending upon the season) and decided I wanted some better clubs. I had had a number of lessons over the years, but with one teacher and with various around the country.

I first went to a callaway fitting center and went thru the entire process and was writing the check when I asked about the shaft flex. They stated that it really did not make any difference at all in my swing or whatever. And went on and on about this. Being at the time not super knowledgeable but experienced in flex, I knew that shaft flex was reasonable important. i tore up the check right there, cancelled the order for the irons and went elsewhere.

Went to a custom shop that had a number of options. Spent 2.5-3 hours on the range hitting a number of different brands, models, shaft flexes and lengths using trackman. I ended up with a set of Miura Blades as the numbers were clearly best for them (I was 65 at the time and did not figure that blades were for someone that age but the numbers from trackman were that much better - and my feel and everything else was better.)

Within a few months, my handicap (no other basic changes) went from the 16-18 down to a 5 range and is still in the 8-9 range. Before the Miura's and that custom fitting I had been playing off the shelf OEM clubs that had loft/lie and length adjusted for me. And I had been a 16-18 for a few years since working regularly with a local pro (he got me from a 25-30 down to the 16-18 but couldn't seem to get me lower).

Were the Miura's that much better than OEM and worth the difference in Price? I still cannot tell. But did they and the fitting make a difference in my handicap. NO QUESTION! Numbers proved it unquestionably. But as I found out, there is a world of difference in the quality of fitters. Just because some one has a shingle and certification doesn't mean that they know what they are doing, but if the fitting works, it really works. I'm a believer because of this.

Tom makes sense and I'm living proof of the 16-18 using true custom fitting and making a difference. I'll fully grant my body characteristics are not average nor is my swing normal. But still, it did work., And I've done enough testing since then of drivers and shafts, etc to see the difference changes make and now understand much more about fitting. I've taken classes, read extensively and become semi-knowlegeable about the subject. And I've helped a few people since with some of my own recommendations.

Does it work for everyone, of course not. Nothing is 100% nor is it foolproof. But can it make a dramatic difference, yes. I've seen too many instances now in the last few years where simple fitting changes made dramatic differences in people's games.

[preshotroutine]

The fitters that you find on these websites will not fit golfers with OEM clubs. In other words you could not find a fitter from the web sites below who would fit you with the new TaylorMade R1 or Stage 2 fairway woods. They don't carry them or even have accesses to them. 95% of these fitters only carry component heads and or shafts.

[color=#282828]1. Start here by looking at any of these three clubmaker locators on the web: [/color]

[color=#282828]The AGCP (Association of Golf Clubfitting Professionals) - [/color][url="http://www.agcpgolf.com/locator/"]http://www.agcpgolf.com/locator/[/url]

[color=#282828]The ICG (International Clubmakers’ Guild) - [/color][url="http://www.clubmakersguild.com/index.php/membership-directory/guild-google-map"]http://www.clubmaker...uild-google-map[/url]

[color=#282828]The TWGT Clubmaker Locator at - [/color][url="http://wishongolf.com/find-a-clubfitter/"]http://wishongolf.co...d-a-clubfitter/[/url]

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='myronm' timestamp='1357926141' post='6210395']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1357358361' post='6171249']
We keep going around in circles with this on this site and we continue to get nowhere with the whole thing.

The question everyone continues to ask is "how will custom fitting improve my game" and all they get in return is a bunch of vague answers purporting potential benefits.

When a car company claims their car is safer the consumer asks for the data, when a pharmaceutical company says their pill works better the consumer asks for the data. To those in the golf industry who expect consumers to purchase their product over that of the oem I think it's time we as consumers demand the same thing. Wanna say your product is better that what the big firms are offering? Prove it, give us some quantifiable evidence.

I want to see hard data that proves that clubs from a custom clubmaker perform better than both fit clubs and off the rack clubs from an oem. As a consumer who is being told that this is the case I feel I have a right to see the evidence.
[/quote]

I don't know about hard data but I can tell you my experience. And its informative.

I decided to get fit for clubs (was 17+ handicap at the time - varying between 16 and 18+ depending upon the season) and decided I wanted some better clubs. I had had a number of lessons over the years, but with one teacher and with various around the country.

I first went to a callaway fitting center and went thru the entire process and was writing the check when I asked about the shaft flex. They stated that it really did not make any difference at all in my swing or whatever. And went on and on about this. Being at the time not super knowledgeable but experienced in flex, I knew that shaft flex was reasonable important. i tore up the check right there, cancelled the order for the irons and went elsewhere.

Went to a custom shop that had a number of options. Spent 2.5-3 hours on the range hitting a number of different brands, models, shaft flexes and lengths using trackman. I ended up with a set of Miura Blades as the numbers were clearly best for them (I was 65 at the time and did not figure that blades were for someone that age but the numbers from trackman were that much better - and my feel and everything else was better.)

Within a few months, my handicap (no other basic changes) went from the 16-18 down to a 5 range and is still in the 8-9 range. Before the Miura's and that custom fitting I had been playing off the shelf OEM clubs that had loft/lie and length adjusted for me. And I had been a 16-18 for a few years since working regularly with a local pro (he got me from a 25-30 down to the 16-18 but couldn't seem to get me lower).

Were the Miura's that much better than OEM and worth the difference in Price? I still cannot tell. But did they and the fitting make a difference in my handicap. NO QUESTION! Numbers proved it unquestionably. But as I found out, there is a world of difference in the quality of fitters. Just because some one has a shingle and certification doesn't mean that they know what they are doing, but if the fitting works, it really works. I'm a believer because of this.

Tom makes sense and I'm living proof of the 16-18 using true custom fitting and making a difference. I'll fully grant my body characteristics are not average nor is my swing normal. But still, it did work., And I've done enough testing since then of drivers and shafts, etc to see the difference changes make and now understand much more about fitting. I've taken classes, read extensively and become semi-knowlegeable about the subject. And I've helped a few people since with some of my own recommendations.

Does it work for everyone, of course not. Nothing is 100% nor is it foolproof. But can it make a dramatic difference, yes. I've seen too many instances now in the last few years where simple fitting changes made dramatic differences in people's games.
[/quote]

Saying that you went from an 18 to a 5 in short succession simply because you bought a set of $2000 irons is absolute nonsense.

That's all I have to say about that.

[bluedot]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1357941429' post='6211791']
[quote name='myronm' timestamp='1357926141' post='6210395']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1357358361' post='6171249']
We keep going around in circles with this on this site and we continue to get nowhere with the whole thing.

The question everyone continues to ask is "how will custom fitting improve my game" and all they get in return is a bunch of vague answers purporting potential benefits.

When a car company claims their car is safer the consumer asks for the data, when a pharmaceutical company says their pill works better the consumer asks for the data. To those in the golf industry who expect consumers to purchase their product over that of the oem I think it's time we as consumers demand the same thing. Wanna say your product is better that what the big firms are offering? Prove it, give us some quantifiable evidence.

I want to see hard data that proves that clubs from a custom clubmaker perform better than both fit clubs and off the rack clubs from an oem. As a consumer who is being told that this is the case I feel I have a right to see the evidence.
[/quote]

I don't know about hard data but I can tell you my experience. And its informative.

I decided to get fit for clubs (was 17+ handicap at the time - varying between 16 and 18+ depending upon the season) and decided I wanted some better clubs. I had had a number of lessons over the years, but with one teacher and with various around the country.

I first went to a callaway fitting center and went thru the entire process and was writing the check when I asked about the shaft flex. They stated that it really did not make any difference at all in my swing or whatever. And went on and on about this. Being at the time not super knowledgeable but experienced in flex, I knew that shaft flex was reasonable important. i tore up the check right there, cancelled the order for the irons and went elsewhere.

Went to a custom shop that had a number of options. Spent 2.5-3 hours on the range hitting a number of different brands, models, shaft flexes and lengths using trackman. I ended up with a set of Miura Blades as the numbers were clearly best for them (I was 65 at the time and did not figure that blades were for someone that age but the numbers from trackman were that much better - and my feel and everything else was better.)

Within a few months, my handicap (no other basic changes) went from the 16-18 down to a 5 range and is still in the 8-9 range. Before the Miura's and that custom fitting I had been playing off the shelf OEM clubs that had loft/lie and length adjusted for me. And I had been a 16-18 for a few years since working regularly with a local pro (he got me from a 25-30 down to the 16-18 but couldn't seem to get me lower).

Were the Miura's that much better than OEM and worth the difference in Price? I still cannot tell. But did they and the fitting make a difference in my handicap. NO QUESTION! Numbers proved it unquestionably. But as I found out, there is a world of difference in the quality of fitters. Just because some one has a shingle and certification doesn't mean that they know what they are doing, but if the fitting works, it really works. I'm a believer because of this.

Tom makes sense and I'm living proof of the 16-18 using true custom fitting and making a difference. I'll fully grant my body characteristics are not average nor is my swing normal. But still, it did work., And I've done enough testing since then of drivers and shafts, etc to see the difference changes make and now understand much more about fitting. I've taken classes, read extensively and become semi-knowlegeable about the subject. And I've helped a few people since with some of my own recommendations.

Does it work for everyone, of course not. Nothing is 100% nor is it foolproof. But can it make a dramatic difference, yes. I've seen too many instances now in the last few years where simple fitting changes made dramatic differences in people's games.
[/quote]

Saying that you went from an 18 to a 5 in short succession simply because you bought a set of $2000 irons is absolute nonsense.

That's all I have to say about that.
[/quote]

So you say you want evidence. A guy posts his own personal evidence and you determine that it is nonsense. That's a pretty tough standard you've set, making yourself judge, jury and executioner.

If I told you I went from a 8 to a 4 after first being fit, would THAT work for you? That's what happened. Now 20 years later I'm still getting fit every time I buy new equipment, and I'm still a 5 at age 60. There isn't a doubt in my mind that fitted clubs have helped retain my length and IMPROVE my accuracy, and I have a lot of mathematical evidence to support that.

If you say you need evidence on a mass scale, you've set an impossible standard because there isn't any way to set up a control group and have only one variable. That reduces us to anecdotal evidence from people like me and MyronM, among others, and you seem to have your mind made up on that.

[Jamboy72]

I get the difficulty of the conversation...and every person will have a different and unique experience...and on one hand, I get the idea that there are too many variables to perform a simple study...people will generally advocate based on their experiences and these collective experiences can create a somewhat reliable data set...however, given that we're dealing with humans, human error will always be part of the equation...


But, I don't think it's farfetched to question a guy dropping 13 strokes nearly overnight because of a fitting...was he playing left-handed?? I wonder if he'd been fit for Ping's or TM's if he would have dropped as many strokes...doubtful...

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1357954141' post='6212787']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1357941429' post='6211791']
[quote name='myronm' timestamp='1357926141' post='6210395']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1357358361' post='6171249']
We keep going around in circles with this on this site and we continue to get nowhere with the whole thing.

The question everyone continues to ask is "how will custom fitting improve my game" and all they get in return is a bunch of vague answers purporting potential benefits.

When a car company claims their car is safer the consumer asks for the data, when a pharmaceutical company says their pill works better the consumer asks for the data. To those in the golf industry who expect consumers to purchase their product over that of the oem I think it's time we as consumers demand the same thing. Wanna say your product is better that what the big firms are offering? Prove it, give us some quantifiable evidence.

I want to see hard data that proves that clubs from a custom clubmaker perform better than both fit clubs and off the rack clubs from an oem. As a consumer who is being told that this is the case I feel I have a right to see the evidence.
[/quote]

I don't know about hard data but I can tell you my experience. And its informative.

I decided to get fit for clubs (was 17+ handicap at the time - varying between 16 and 18+ depending upon the season) and decided I wanted some better clubs. I had had a number of lessons over the years, but with one teacher and with various around the country.

I first went to a callaway fitting center and went thru the entire process and was writing the check when I asked about the shaft flex. They stated that it really did not make any difference at all in my swing or whatever. And went on and on about this. Being at the time not super knowledgeable but experienced in flex, I knew that shaft flex was reasonable important. i tore up the check right there, cancelled the order for the irons and went elsewhere.

Went to a custom shop that had a number of options. Spent 2.5-3 hours on the range hitting a number of different brands, models, shaft flexes and lengths using trackman. I ended up with a set of Miura Blades as the numbers were clearly best for them (I was 65 at the time and did not figure that blades were for someone that age but the numbers from trackman were that much better - and my feel and everything else was better.)

Within a few months, my handicap (no other basic changes) went from the 16-18 down to a 5 range and is still in the 8-9 range. Before the Miura's and that custom fitting I had been playing off the shelf OEM clubs that had loft/lie and length adjusted for me. And I had been a 16-18 for a few years since working regularly with a local pro (he got me from a 25-30 down to the 16-18 but couldn't seem to get me lower).

Were the Miura's that much better than OEM and worth the difference in Price? I still cannot tell. But did they and the fitting make a difference in my handicap. NO QUESTION! Numbers proved it unquestionably. But as I found out, there is a world of difference in the quality of fitters. Just because some one has a shingle and certification doesn't mean that they know what they are doing, but if the fitting works, it really works. I'm a believer because of this.

Tom makes sense and I'm living proof of the 16-18 using true custom fitting and making a difference. I'll fully grant my body characteristics are not average nor is my swing normal. But still, it did work., And I've done enough testing since then of drivers and shafts, etc to see the difference changes make and now understand much more about fitting. I've taken classes, read extensively and become semi-knowlegeable about the subject. And I've helped a few people since with some of my own recommendations.

Does it work for everyone, of course not. Nothing is 100% nor is it foolproof. But can it make a dramatic difference, yes. I've seen too many instances now in the last few years where simple fitting changes made dramatic differences in people's games.
[/quote]

Saying that you went from an 18 to a 5 in short succession simply because you bought a set of $2000 irons is absolute nonsense.

That's all I have to say about that.
[/quote]

So you say you want evidence. A guy posts his own personal evidence and you determine that it is nonsense. That's a pretty tough standard you've set, making yourself judge, jury and executioner.

If I told you I went from a 8 to a 4 after first being fit, would THAT work for you? That's what happened. Now 20 years later I'm still getting fit every time I buy new equipment, and I'm still a 5 at age 60. There isn't a doubt in my mind that fitted clubs have helped retain my length and IMPROVE my accuracy, and I have a lot of mathematical evidence to support that.

If you say you need evidence on a mass scale, you've set an impossible standard because there isn't any way to set up a control group and have only one variable. That reduces us to anecdotal evidence from people like me and MyronM, among others, and you seem to have your mind made up on that.
[/quote]

If you look at the statistics of where shots are lost in an 18 handicappers round it is overwhelmingly weighted toward penalty shots and the short game, neither of which will be improved by the improvement factor of 360% due to a new set of irons (or improvement in iron play which stretches past the claims made in the statement) as asserted by the gentleman above.

I asked for statistical evidence, and now you're trying to incite an argument because I wouldn't take someone at their word that they improved 360% overnight simply because of a purchase of a set of irons? His post was nonsense and yours is just as bad. Stop insulting my intelligence with this drivel.