Why do you hate JDM?

[KPH808]

[quote name='chiromikey' timestamp='1358278042' post='6233637']
[quote name='jaskanski' timestamp='1358275451' post='6233329']
[quote name='morebeerbettergolf' timestamp='1358275182' post='6233293']
[quote name='jaskanski' timestamp='1358273607' post='6233153']
It's not that JDM clubs in themselves generate a lot of hate, it's just that the cult following who hold them as "superior" are wrong. I'm not saying that they are of any better or lesser quality than anything else, but to define them as the technical and aesthetic superior to anything else is just plain wrong. I call it the "Emperors Clothes Syndrome" in that many devotees of the JDM brand dare not call them into question for fear of ridicule. On the face of it, most people who hold them in such high esteem have probably never tried them. And even then, those that [i]do [/i]own them probably just look at them rather than hit them. It's a bit like the swiss watch market which is full of such folklore BS too.
I can see both sides of the coin as being a long time Titleist 690 MB user, I now currently play Mizuno MP-33's. Are the Mizzy's vastly superior? Absolutely not. Are they every bit as good? Heck yes.
I'm sure somebody will drone on for hours about their super rare niche forging of some unknown JDM wedge and how it out performs and feels better than anything on the market, based on the design and manufacturing prowess of master craftsmen of samurai heritage. But by the same token you will find the same folks who only wear Patek Phillipe watches and drive Ferraris for the same reason. For the most part, they are marketed deliberately at this aspiration level of mystique and passed on reputation. If they were somewhat cheaper, I could understand more (cue the guy saying: "do you realise what goes into making blah, blah,blah...?") Er...yes I do.
Hence the level of hate. I'd better go and hide now - I can hear some ninja's outside...
[/quote]

Your post makes some excellent posts, and there is no question that the mystique and exclusivity plays a role in a lot of the JDM craze. No doubt about it.

On the other hand, I have to disagree with people bring "wrong for holding JDM clubs as superior." I contend that most people buy clubs (or cars or clothes or rubbers or bubble gum or cheap hookers) based on the feeling that they are superior to the other offerings. That's just common sense.

If you're saying that it is wrong to be an elitist snob because you have JDM...then you're 100% correct.
[/quote]

Well, that's the crux of the question my friend. How can you unequivocally quantify the superiority of anything? Least of all an inanimate object such as a golf club?
[/quote]
why does anyone have to quantify to anoyone else their subjective (and sometimes objective) opinions on superiority? if a certain brand watch, car, or golf club gives a person more enjoyment in ownership then what's it to anyone else to say otherwise?
[/quote]

Yes, absolute truth but I will say IMO that the reason I like JDM equipment more is b/c of the higher standards they have vs mass produced equipment manufactured in China. These equipment manufacturers use the cheapest means regarding supplies and labor to make the most profit margin.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='KPH808' timestamp='1358572757' post='6258067']
[quote name='chiromikey' timestamp='1358278042' post='6233637']
[quote name='jaskanski' timestamp='1358275451' post='6233329']
[quote name='morebeerbettergolf' timestamp='1358275182' post='6233293']
[quote name='jaskanski' timestamp='1358273607' post='6233153']
It's not that JDM clubs in themselves generate a lot of hate, it's just that the cult following who hold them as "superior" are wrong. I'm not saying that they are of any better or lesser quality than anything else, but to define them as the technical and aesthetic superior to anything else is just plain wrong. I call it the "Emperors Clothes Syndrome" in that many devotees of the JDM brand dare not call them into question for fear of ridicule. On the face of it, most people who hold them in such high esteem have probably never tried them. And even then, those that [i]do [/i]own them probably just look at them rather than hit them. It's a bit like the swiss watch market which is full of such folklore BS too.
I can see both sides of the coin as being a long time Titleist 690 MB user, I now currently play Mizuno MP-33's. Are the Mizzy's vastly superior? Absolutely not. Are they every bit as good? Heck yes.
I'm sure somebody will drone on for hours about their super rare niche forging of some unknown JDM wedge and how it out performs and feels better than anything on the market, based on the design and manufacturing prowess of master craftsmen of samurai heritage. But by the same token you will find the same folks who only wear Patek Phillipe watches and drive Ferraris for the same reason. For the most part, they are marketed deliberately at this aspiration level of mystique and passed on reputation. If they were somewhat cheaper, I could understand more (cue the guy saying: "do you realise what goes into making blah, blah,blah...?") Er...yes I do.
Hence the level of hate. I'd better go and hide now - I can hear some ninja's outside...
[/quote]

Your post makes some excellent posts, and there is no question that the mystique and exclusivity plays a role in a lot of the JDM craze. No doubt about it.

On the other hand, I have to disagree with people bring "wrong for holding JDM clubs as superior." I contend that most people buy clubs (or cars or clothes or rubbers or bubble gum or cheap hookers) based on the feeling that they are superior to the other offerings. That's just common sense.

If you're saying that it is wrong to be an elitist snob because you have JDM...then you're 100% correct.
[/quote]

Well, that's the crux of the question my friend. How can you unequivocally quantify the superiority of anything? Least of all an inanimate object such as a golf club?
[/quote]
why does anyone have to quantify to anoyone else their subjective (and sometimes objective) opinions on superiority? if a certain brand watch, car, or golf club gives a person more enjoyment in ownership then what's it to anyone else to say otherwise?
[/quote]

Yes, absolute truth but I will say IMO that the reason I like JDM equipment more is b/c of the higher standards they have vs mass produced equipment manufactured in China. These equipment manufacturers use the cheapest means regarding supplies and labor to make the most profit margin.
[/quote]

Most JDM equipment is mass produced in china,

[chocolatte]

I own both US and JDM clubs. In general, I would say that the JDM stuff definitely pay more attention to details.

Other than that, I can't really say my epon 302 or titleist vg3 or miura blade feel any better than my 712 cb/mb and mizuno mp stuff. They all perform about the same as well.

It's all subjective.

[jnradioactive]

It's just too hard to play while sticking your pinky out all the time...

[stevopagolf]

I don't hate JDM at all. Nor do I feel superior in anyway for playing a JDM clubs. Most people that I run into give me a kind of look that I have clubs they haven't seen before like I am a bit of a nut.

I play Titleist VG3's because I liked the forged feel of the AP2 but the forgiveness of the AP1. So the VG3's gave me what I wanted. I play Egg Spoon woods because they are the easiest for me to hit off the fairway. For most it is function first regardless of where it was produced.

I don't hate anything but do have a strong dislike for Walmart and Amex...but I digress....

[OLD_MAN_ESCO]

Cause I'm a lefty

[rymail00]

Intersting thread. I dont play JDM...but find some of their stuff intreging

[jaskanski]

[quote name='rymail00' timestamp='1358632456' post='6261021']
Intersting thread. I dont play JDM...but find some of their stuff intreging
[/quote]
only the true JDM fan would find the equipment *intriguing*.
With covers on, of course.

[rymail00]

[quote name='jaskanski' timestamp='1358635988' post='6261339']
[quote name='rymail00' timestamp='1358632456' post='6261021']
Intersting thread. I dont play JDM...but find some of their stuff intreging
[/quote]
only the true JDM fan would find the equipment *intriguing*.
With covers on, of course.
[/quote]

LOL I knew it did not look right while I was typing it out!!

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='phatmarks10' timestamp='1358616948' post='6259859']
Cause I'm a lefty
[/quote]

LOL...now THAT is a valid reason.

[tbowles411]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1358638524' post='6261547']
[quote name='phatmarks10' timestamp='1358616948' post='6259859']
Cause I'm a lefty
[/quote]

LOL...now THAT is a valid reason.
[/quote]
Probably the most valid.

[JDorfler]

Don't mind the heads, but not a fan of Japan only shafts.

[esinger430]

Explain one thing to me please? Taylormade r11 Japan and U S are the same product? Why such a price difference?

I love Japanese clubs. Use yamada putter vega driver and vega wedges! Played Maura and epon irons but settled on rocket balls this past season. Substantial savings obviously. Reason is tm marketing I believe every commercial they make

[Vegaman]

[quote name='esinger430' timestamp='1358660812' post='6263339']
Explain one thing to me please? Taylormade r11 Japan and U S are the same product? Why such a price difference?

I love Japanese clubs. Use yamada putter vega driver and vega wedges! Played Maura and epon irons but settled on rocket balls this past season. Substantial savings obviously. Reason is tm marketing I believe every commercial they make��
[/quote]

In Thailand, where I live at the moment, we get both the JDM and the USDM R11 clubs. And they cost more or less the same. There are some differences when it comes to cosmetics and shafts and the JDM usually comes with a pretty cool looking grip. So, the answer is that Japan is an expensive place, period.

[idrive]

[quote name='esinger430' timestamp='1358660812' post='6263339']
Explain one thing to me please? Taylormade r11 Japan and U S are the same product? Why such a price difference?
[/quote]

1st off, for starters, they are not exactly the same. Even if they were exactly the same......

Imagine an R11 made in the United States and one made in China. The one made in China is cheaper to make. It's why they're made in China,
so they can be sold for less money. They cost less to manufacturer there. It's why they aren't made here. At this point quality really has
nothing to do with it. It's who can make it for the least amount.

Now, add into the equation that the US $ has fallen dramatically in value especially compared to the Yen. The exact same club that sold
for $500 two years a go now costs more than $600. Nothing has changed except that the US $ isn't worth what it was.

At the currant rate of our devaluing $ Japanese clubs are going to become even more expensive for no other reason than our poor economy.

And I don't hate Japanese clubs. I rather like them.

[ProjectX]

Would love to try some JDM stuff but I can buy 2 or more products from the US for the same price. So why try.

[KPH808]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1358575814' post='6258183']
[quote name='KPH808' timestamp='1358572757' post='6258067']
[quote name='chiromikey' timestamp='1358278042' post='6233637']
[quote name='jaskanski' timestamp='1358275451' post='6233329']
[quote name='morebeerbettergolf' timestamp='1358275182' post='6233293']
[quote name='jaskanski' timestamp='1358273607' post='6233153']
It's not that JDM clubs in themselves generate a lot of hate, it's just that the cult following who hold them as "superior" are wrong. I'm not saying that they are of any better or lesser quality than anything else, but to define them as the technical and aesthetic superior to anything else is just plain wrong. I call it the "Emperors Clothes Syndrome" in that many devotees of the JDM brand dare not call them into question for fear of ridicule. On the face of it, most people who hold them in such high esteem have probably never tried them. And even then, those that [i]do [/i]own them probably just look at them rather than hit them. It's a bit like the swiss watch market which is full of such folklore BS too.
I can see both sides of the coin as being a long time Titleist 690 MB user, I now currently play Mizuno MP-33's. Are the Mizzy's vastly superior? Absolutely not. Are they every bit as good? Heck yes.
I'm sure somebody will drone on for hours about their super rare niche forging of some unknown JDM wedge and how it out performs and feels better than anything on the market, based on the design and manufacturing prowess of master craftsmen of samurai heritage. But by the same token you will find the same folks who only wear Patek Phillipe watches and drive Ferraris for the same reason. For the most part, they are marketed deliberately at this aspiration level of mystique and passed on reputation. If they were somewhat cheaper, I could understand more (cue the guy saying: "do you realise what goes into making blah, blah,blah...?") Er...yes I do.
Hence the level of hate. I'd better go and hide now - I can hear some ninja's outside...
[/quote]

Your post makes some excellent posts, and there is no question that the mystique and exclusivity plays a role in a lot of the JDM craze. No doubt about it.

On the other hand, I have to disagree with people bring "wrong for holding JDM clubs as superior." I contend that most people buy clubs (or cars or clothes or rubbers or bubble gum or cheap hookers) based on the feeling that they are superior to the other offerings. That's just common sense.

If you're saying that it is wrong to be an elitist snob because you have JDM...then you're 100% correct.
[/quote]

Well, that's the crux of the question my friend. How can you unequivocally quantify the superiority of anything? Least of all an inanimate object such as a golf club?
[/quote]
why does anyone have to quantify to anoyone else their subjective (and sometimes objective) opinions on superiority? if a certain brand watch, car, or golf club gives a person more enjoyment in ownership then what's it to anyone else to say otherwise?
[/quote]

Yes, absolute truth but I will say IMO that the reason I like JDM equipment more is b/c of the higher standards they have vs mass produced equipment manufactured in China. These equipment manufacturers use the cheapest means regarding supplies and labor to make the most profit margin.
[/quote]

Most JDM equipment is mass produced in china,
[/quote]

I wouldn't say most, some maybe but not most. Otherwise it wouldn't be JDM.

[esinger430]

[quote name='idrive' timestamp='1358723188' post='6266743']
[quote name='esinger430' timestamp='1358660812' post='6263339']
Explain one thing to me please? Taylormade r11 Japan and U S are the same product? Why such a price difference?
[/quote]

1st off, for starters, they are not exactly the same. Even if they were exactly the same......

Imagine an R11 made in the United States and one made in China. The one made in China is cheaper to make. It's why they're made in China,
so they can be sold for less money. They cost less to manufacturer there. It's why they aren't made here. At this point quality really has
nothing to do with it. It's who can make it for the least amount.

Now, add into the equation that the US $ has fallen dramatically in value especially compared to the Yen. The exact same club that sold
for $500 two years a go now costs more than $600. Nothing has changed except that the US $ isn't worth what it was.

At the currant rate of our devaluing $ Japanese clubs are going to become even more expensive for no other reason than our poor economy.

And I don't hate Japanese clubs. I rather like them.
[/quote]

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='KPH808' timestamp='1358731357' post='6267451']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1358575814' post='6258183']
[quote name='KPH808' timestamp='1358572757' post='6258067']
[quote name='chiromikey' timestamp='1358278042' post='6233637']
[quote name='jaskanski' timestamp='1358275451' post='6233329']
[quote name='morebeerbettergolf' timestamp='1358275182' post='6233293']
[quote name='jaskanski' timestamp='1358273607' post='6233153']
It's not that JDM clubs in themselves generate a lot of hate, it's just that the cult following who hold them as "superior" are wrong. I'm not saying that they are of any better or lesser quality than anything else, but to define them as the technical and aesthetic superior to anything else is just plain wrong. I call it the "Emperors Clothes Syndrome" in that many devotees of the JDM brand dare not call them into question for fear of ridicule. On the face of it, most people who hold them in such high esteem have probably never tried them. And even then, those that [i]do [/i]own them probably just look at them rather than hit them. It's a bit like the swiss watch market which is full of such folklore BS too.
I can see both sides of the coin as being a long time Titleist 690 MB user, I now currently play Mizuno MP-33's. Are the Mizzy's vastly superior? Absolutely not. Are they every bit as good? Heck yes.
I'm sure somebody will drone on for hours about their super rare niche forging of some unknown JDM wedge and how it out performs and feels better than anything on the market, based on the design and manufacturing prowess of master craftsmen of samurai heritage. But by the same token you will find the same folks who only wear Patek Phillipe watches and drive Ferraris for the same reason. For the most part, they are marketed deliberately at this aspiration level of mystique and passed on reputation. If they were somewhat cheaper, I could understand more (cue the guy saying: "do you realise what goes into making blah, blah,blah...?") Er...yes I do.
Hence the level of hate. I'd better go and hide now - I can hear some ninja's outside...
[/quote]

Your post makes some excellent posts, and there is no question that the mystique and exclusivity plays a role in a lot of the JDM craze. No doubt about it.

On the other hand, I have to disagree with people bring "wrong for holding JDM clubs as superior." I contend that most people buy clubs (or cars or clothes or rubbers or bubble gum or cheap hookers) based on the feeling that they are superior to the other offerings. That's just common sense.

If you're saying that it is wrong to be an elitist snob because you have JDM...then you're 100% correct.
[/quote]

Well, that's the crux of the question my friend. How can you unequivocally quantify the superiority of anything? Least of all an inanimate object such as a golf club?
[/quote]
why does anyone have to quantify to anoyone else their subjective (and sometimes objective) opinions on superiority? if a certain brand watch, car, or golf club gives a person more enjoyment in ownership then what's it to anyone else to say otherwise?
[/quote]

Yes, absolute truth but I will say IMO that the reason I like JDM equipment more is b/c of the higher standards they have vs mass produced equipment manufactured in China. These equipment manufacturers use the cheapest means regarding supplies and labor to make the most profit margin.
[/quote]

Most JDM equipment is mass produced in china,
[/quote]

I wouldn't say most, some maybe but not most. Otherwise it wouldn't be JDM.
[/quote]

Search the forums for this subject, the information is all out there.

[idrive]

[i]I wouldn't say most, some maybe but not most. [/i]

[b]Correct[/b]

[i]Search the forums for this subject, the information is all out there.[/i]

[b]Wrong[/b]

[tsupo]

hmmmmmmmm not sure most JDM gear is produced mass in china ,thats a pretty huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge generalisation. and its prob incorrect.

all the top level irons that are forgd by ENDO are done in thailand or niigata
not sure if id call that mass producing ......

the smaller brands ,which there are buzzzzzzzilions u guys will never hear about ever...
a lot of them are done at kyeoi in hyogo or in toyama.

driver heads prob more so than irons i guess u might say that..
but the top enders are all done by endo.

they dont mass produce in china

actually that is a pretty bad statement

[idrive]

Excuse me???

I didn't make the claim, you did.

You said it, you prove it. I'm not going to waste my time searching posts that speculate things
they know nothing about.

Yes, some are produced in China, anything but most. Most means majority.

And remember, Thailand doesn't count as China

Good Luck

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='tsupo' timestamp='1358836784' post='6275053']
hmmmmmmmm not sure most JDM gear is produced mass in china ,thats a pretty huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge generalisation. and its prob incorrect.

all the top level irons that are forgd by ENDO are done in thailand or niigata
not sure if id call that mass producing ......

the smaller brands ,which there are buzzzzzzzilions u guys will never hear about ever...
a lot of them are done at kyeoi in hyogo or in toyama.

driver heads prob more so than irons i guess u might say that..
but the top enders are all done by endo.

they dont mass produce in china

actually that is a pretty bad statement
[/quote]

I don't want to get drawn into another stupid JDM argument but you guys can search the forums, read the information, and come to your own conclusions.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='idrive' timestamp='1358920453' post='6281249']
Excuse me???

I didn't make the claim, you did.

You said it, you prove it. I'm not going to waste my time searching posts that speculate things
they know nothing about.

Yes, some are produced in China, anything but most. Most means majority.

And remember, Thailand doesn't count as China

Good Luck
[/quote]

I actually deleted that (rather polite) post because I decided that you were just trolling for a fight like you always are, guess I was right.

In any case the information is out there, search the forums, come to your own conclusion. That's all I have to say to you. Frankly not once have I seen you post anything of value so I'm just going to go ahead and block you.

[jnradioactive]

[quote name='idrive' timestamp='1358920453' post='6281249']
Excuse me???

I didn't make the claim, you did.

You said it, you prove it. I'm not going to waste my time searching posts that speculate things
they know nothing about.

Yes, some are produced in China, anything but most. Most means majority.

And remember, Thailand doesn't count as China

Good Luck
[/quote]

Thailand is not Japan either. Enjoy your TDM clubs

[CCC]

You made in China guys need to put up or shut up.
If the info is there I would love to see it.
Probably easier though to act like kindergarten kids and " I'll block you"
Can't lose the argument then

TDM clubs, well every neuron in your brain must have fired simultaneously for you to come up with that

[TJCDAS]

Not going crazy over a product does not make one hate it.

I have one set of JDM clubs and they are not covered in magic dust than only comes with JDM clubs.

Any quality forged club is equal to any JDM club.

Plus not all JDM clubs are even forged in Japan.

[i]Japanese Domestic Market not [/i][i]Japanese Domestic Manufactured.[/i]

[size=4]Virage Tech.[/size]

[Woodridge]

I found it interesting that Miura and Epon are not listed as exhibiting at the PGA equipment show in Orlando. Is this common for them or are they just not doing this year's show for some reason.

[morebeerbettergolf]

JDM doesn't mean "Made in Japan." It means, "Made[i] for[/i] Japan."

USDM product is mostly made in China, but that doesn't mean it is CDM. It is still product manufactured for and marketed to the US domestic market.

JDM would still be JDM even if it were made in the US because it is product manufactured for and marketed to the Japanese domestic market.

While most JDM aficionados would likely prefer their clubs be forged and assembled in Japan... It doesn't matter to me where my JDM clubs are actually manufactured, so long as they exhibit the quality, consistency, and aesthetics that I expect when paying a premium for JDM clubs. Whether produced in the Endo plant in Thailand or in Japan, they will be produced with the same materials, overseen by the same management, using the same processes, to the same exacting standards.

It isn't so much [i]where[/i] a product is made, it is [i]who[/i] is making it.

Woodridge: I am surprised Miura isn't participating, as it seems they have recently been quite focused on growing market share in the US. They have US specific lines of product, a marketing presence, and hired Adam Barr to help bring US awareness of their product. Seems odd that they wouldn't participate in the PGA equipment show?

Miura products that most on WRX are familiar with, by definition, are not JDM. It is actually USDM that is manufactured in Japan. Their other lines of products (miura giken, miuraism) only marketed in Japan, are.

Epon doesn't even have a US division anymore to my knowledge, and they don't seem overly concerned with creating a dedicated dealer network here. There are only a handful of legacy Epon accounts in the entire nation, and a few new ones that just source wholesale product through TSG for US retail. I don't anticipate any Epon ads in GD or on Golf Channel any time soon. They seem to be quite content flying below the radar.

[RLL33]

Actually Miura is all over the show in Orlando -- just not in your basic splashy, boothy, big ad American way. Even though I know it's hopeless to respond to trolls, anyone interested might check out this release issued recently FYI to actual golfers: [url="http://www.golfbusinesswire.com/story/277637"]http://www.golfbusinesswire.com/story/277637[/url]

January 16, 2013 | Category: PGA Merchandise Show (Jan. 24-26)

Miura Golf Partners At The PGA Merchandise Show In Orlando, Florida

Vancouver, BC - Miura Golf, the Japanese maker of fine forged irons, wedges, putters and other clubs, is proud to announce that it will once again provide clubs for use by its key industry partners at the 2013 PGA Merchandise Show, Jan. 23-26 in Orlando, Fla.
"We don't exhibit at the Show in the traditional way, but we know its value as an industry meeting place," said Adam Barr, president of Miura. "And so many of the companies we work with throughout the year need clubs to help showcase their golf products. We're delighted to help. We want people to know how good our partners' products are -- and, incidentally, how good our clubs are."
Companies that will have Miura clubs in booths and/or Demo Day range stalls include:

Shaft Companies
UST - Booth # 1931
Miura clubs will feature UST Mamiya Recoil Iron Shafts.
Nippon - Booth # 721
Miura clubs will show off the Tour Modus3 iron shaft and a new driver shaft.
True Temper - Meeting Room 202C
Various Miura models will be available for demo purposes.

Accra - Demo Day
As usual, Miura will be honored to attend Accra's annual Accra Day for clubfitters and dealers.
KBS- Demo Day
Miura clubs will be available to hit, matched up with various KBS shaft models.

Other partners include:
Oakley - Booth # 1373
The cutting-edge company will be releasing new shoes and, of course, golf-specific sunglasses. Miura will be available at their Demo Day stall. Custom shafts for Oakley will be provided by Accra.
PURE Grips - Booth # 1417
PURE Grips is a leading manufacturer of Golf Grips in America, offering superior comfort and exceptional all-weather durability.