Private Club Assessment & Course Renovations

[jerkputter]

After working in the golf industry for 20 years the last 10 as a superintendent I would ask this question. Why would anyone want to grow winter grass in the south ? Bermuda is so much better in those temp's

[CowtownTexas]

[quote name='jerkputter' timestamp='1365563541' post='6797973']
After working in the golf industry for 20 years the last 10 as a superintendent I would ask this question. Why would anyone want to grow winter grass in the south ? Bermuda is so much better in those temp's
[/quote]

Grain and trees.

We're having this discussion at my club. I'll take 8-10 weeks of poor greens for the tradeoff of bent the rest of the year. Too hot to play in July/August anyway.

And bent actually does pretty good in west Texas because of the cool nights.

[mikpga]

I've heard it costs about 50k to build a green from scratch. How the cost goes up when dealing with existing greens, I don't know? It seems on the high end to me. As someone mentioned, some courses have been built from scratch for 5 million, I would think.

Are they offering a detailed breakdown of costs?

[jptruck]

It was me that mentioned the $80K cost. I'm not positive about this, but a green rebuild usually should run around $15K-$30K. That's why I"m so baffled by the numbers that a club like that would bat around. Then again, some places are seeing hyper inflation on labor and materials. If you are in the middle of an oil boom, you're going to see some big numbers for everything that includes workmen.

[CPSOX]

[quote name='CowtownTexas' timestamp='1365561505' post='6797735']
On another note, if you go out to the tournament this weekend, watch a young bomber named Franklin Corpening. A very good kid who I've known most of his life. Playing good his first year with any status and I'm pulling for him hard.
[/quote] Joe's kid, right?

[Rittyrich]

[quote name='CPSOX' timestamp='1365536783' post='6794843']
No offense to the OP, but if you don't even understand what USGA spec greens are, how do you have any way of gauging whether the total cost of the project is fair or not? Greens are by far the most labor intensive item to build on a golf course, followed by bunkers. Irrigation isn't cheap, especially since many clubs are going to 3 full row that are put onto a "smart" grid.
[/quote]

No offense to you, but if I had a way of gauging whether the total cost was fair, I wouldn't be posting the issue on here.

[Rittyrich]

[quote name='CowtownTexas' timestamp='1365561505' post='6797735']
It costs a bit more to construct in Texas than it does in other parts of the country. Then consider he's in Midland and cost goes up even more. Just transporting the needed materials there is much higher than it would be in most of the rest of the country. One big problem I'd consider is being able to find the needed laborers for such a job given how much more they can make in the oil patch. The stories I'm hearing from that boom town are pretty amazing lately with a lack of a labor force being a major problem, particularly on the low end. When 18 year old truck drivers are making over $100k per year, people get silly about money.

I'd imagine the people who think spending $5million on the course via an assessment are the same folks who think that proposed 59 story building is a good idea. The people who've been out there for generations are sitting on the sidelines waiting for the next bust.

Midland is one incredibly interesting town these days. I suspected that was where you were from.

I know some folks at MCC. Good folks who likely see things the same as you do.

On another note, if you go out to the tournament this weekend, watch a young bomber named Franklin Corpening. A very good kid who I've known most of his life. Playing good his first year with any status and I'm pulling for him hard.
[/quote]

I'll probably be out there watching a few times this week/weekend. I'll check it out. Just got done playing the pro-am. We had that freak cold front come through. It was 32* and blowing 20 mph out there. Why we even played, I have no idea, but I'll never forget the round, that's for sure.

You are correct about Midland. I understand labor, transportation, and materials are more expensive here due to our location and a lack of a labor force, but these guys in business here understand that. And when the bid comes in $2 million over the original estimate, it raises eyebrows, because that's a huge markup due to the fact it's Midland.

[CowtownTexas]

[quote name='CPSOX' timestamp='1365608111' post='6800779']
[quote name='CowtownTexas' timestamp='1365561505' post='6797735']
On another note, if you go out to the tournament this weekend, watch a young bomber named Franklin Corpening. A very good kid who I've known most of his life. Playing good his first year with any status and I'm pulling for him hard.
[/quote] Joe's kid, right?
[/quote]

That's correct. We know the same folks.

[MaxPower328]

Although I wasn't at my club before the renovation I pulled this from the website. From what I understand the biggest cost for us had to do with irrigation. We are on a well system that needed a lot of updating.

Following the master plan of the Membership, updates to the course, most recently a $3.5M renovation in 2006, have been completed by McCumber Associates.

We are about to get hit with another assessment this summer I believe. The town is ripping up one of the intersections that borders one of our holes. The town is taking a ton of real estate that is causing us to have to move our green. I was under the assumption that the town would simply reimburse us the amount. I was painfully mistaken. Basically the net-net of it is that they give us a dollar amount that they think is fair and if we disagree we have to take the town to court. A couple members of the board looked into the history of this and they said courts rule in favor of the town 95% of the time vs. private country clubs.

[ruascott]

[quote name='MaxPower328' timestamp='1365689485' post='6809501']
Although I wasn't at my club before the renovation I pulled this from the website. From what I understand the biggest cost for us had to do with irrigation. We are on a well system that needed a lot of updating.

Following the master plan of the Membership, updates to the course, most recently a $3.5M renovation in 2006, have been completed by McCumber Associates.

We are about to get hit with another assessment this summer I believe. The town is ripping up one of the intersections that borders one of our holes. The town is taking a ton of real estate that is causing us to have to move our green. I was under the assumption that the town would simply reimburse us the amount. I was painfully mistaken. Basically the net-net of it is that they give us a dollar amount that they think is fair and if we disagree we have to take the town to court. A couple members of the board looked into the history of this and they said courts rule in favor of the town 95% of the time vs. private country clubs.
[/quote]

That is totally absurd that they can use eminent domain and not provide you with full replacement cost. Why not challenge it in court? The worst that happens is they rule in against you right? Surely there are some lawyers among your membership that can assist?

[jptruck]

[quote name='ruascott' timestamp='1366123953' post='6856477']
[quote name='MaxPower328' timestamp='1365689485' post='6809501']
Although I wasn't at my club before the renovation I pulled this from the website. From what I understand the biggest cost for us had to do with irrigation. We are on a well system that needed a lot of updating.

Following the master plan of the Membership, updates to the course, most recently a $3.5M renovation in 2006, have been completed by McCumber Associates.

We are about to get hit with another assessment this summer I believe. The town is ripping up one of the intersections that borders one of our holes. The town is taking a ton of real estate that is causing us to have to move our green. I was under the assumption that the town would simply reimburse us the amount. I was painfully mistaken. Basically the net-net of it is that they give us a dollar amount that they think is fair and if we disagree we have to take the town to court. A couple members of the board looked into the history of this and they said courts rule in favor of the town 95% of the time vs. private country clubs.
[/quote]

That is totally absurd that they can use eminent domain and not provide you with full replacement cost. Why not challenge it in court? The worst that happens is they rule in against you right? Surely there are some lawyers among your membership that can assist?
[/quote]

I'm not sure which state you live in, but imminent domain issues can be tough. They will probably have to do an appraisal of the site and land they are taking, and then pay your club "fair market value." Business losses are the toughest aspect. Essentially, your hole replacement is a loss of economic activity on the land. Some states pay for that, some don't. You club is probably screwed and will have to pay for the changes. Suing doesn't always work.

[b_smith07]

Man, I know this is a thread dig, but seeing as I never saw this before and I had always heard about this renovation at MCC (put off joining as this issue was looming when I was looking for a club 2 years ago) Im curious if you're still at MCC and how the reno is going? I know they got the short course done and the range reopened. I knew a few members that quit once the vote went through, and now with the oil bust weve had the last year Im curious to how things are at MCC.

[AThompson_3]

Losing members could be a problem. Maybe not a huge problem since it appears the OP is in Texas and our economy is very strong here.

 

One thing I'd consider if I was a member is how much is the assessment in regards to the current initiation fee for new membership. Also, how does that compare to other clubs in the immediate area?

 

Several years ago, a club near me had an issue that resulted in a pretty large assessment. They had two levels, one for full-members and another for juniors. The amount for the juniors was more than what it would cost to join another club nearby, so many did just that.

 

I once heard a quote from a guy I've always respected that basically "country club boards are pretty amazing, no where else can you put 9-15 otherwise bright people in a room and get so many dumb decisions". Having served on a board, I have to agree with that statement.

 

I hope your board has looked at this from all angles. They need to realize that many of those members they never hear from definitely have opinions, but are more likely to vote with their checkbook than during an annual meeting.

Favorite quote I've ever seen on here.

[GolfNuts4]

My club just signed a contract to have all the grass killed and replaced. They are also, tearing up the greens and replacing dirt underneath and redoing the bunkers. I know our grounds crew is going to be doing some of the work, but our quote from the contractor was somewhere around $1.5M.

[HackerDave]

Man, I know this is a thread dig, but seeing as I never saw this before and I had always heard about this renovation at MCC (put off joining as this issue was looming when I was looking for a club 2 years ago) Im curious if you're still at MCC and how the reno is going? I know they got the short course done and the range reopened. I knew a few members that quit once the vote went through, and now with the oil bust weve had the last year Im curious to how things are at MCC.

 

In my opinion, this is the greatest danger to a club. Back during the real estate boom years, our board presented a grand plan to renovate both the course and the clubhouse. We brought in Art Hills and he made a grand presentation that was ridiculously higher than the budget we gave him. Lucky for us the membership voted it down. While there was hurt feelings on the board, it literally saved the club. When the recession hit the auto industry (and everything else), we were debt free and while we lost a significant number of members, we survived. Now that the economy has improved, we have made some modest improvements to the course (with a big impact) and have undergone a pretty significant renovation of the clubhouse. There were assessments and increased monthly dues, but it is manageable and the improvements have led to an increase in membership.

 

If the club in the original post loaded up on debt, I would be curious to know how they are doing now. This is the problem with loading a club with debt. When times get tough, depending on how the membership is structured, they often simply leave and the remaining members are left holding the bag.

 

Every once in a while, you have to remind the board that if we wanted to be like Oakland Hills, we would have joined Oakland Hills.

[dtm6582]

Doesn't look like the OP of this thread has been active for a couple years. Too bad, I'm curious what things look like at that club now. I wouldn't be surprised if the financial picture there looks pretty bleak.

[Waterboy]

My club just signed a contract to have all the grass killed and replaced. They are also, tearing up the greens and replacing dirt underneath and redoing the bunkers. I know our grounds crew is going to be doing some of the work, but our quote from the contractor was somewhere around $1.5M.

 

Since this is something your club is going to be involved in I have a few questions.

 

Did the club look at doing anything to improve the drainage throughout the course? I've heard places initially look into doing the gas the grass method but only to have the end result not change then have to go back and spend money that would have been helpful in the beginning.

When redoing the bunkers are new liners and sand coming in or is it mostly a cosmetic fix?

For greens, are they already pushup/california style or is there a sand subgrade?

 

Just trying to find out some info about the course work. I've been involved in a few of them so feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

 

Wb

[ruascott]

Looks like the full renovation has gone forward...the course is closed for the year.

 

http://www.midlandcc.com/web/pages/golf

[jptruck]

Expensive projects like this always seem to be conceived in boom times and executed in bust times. When this post first came up, it was the boom times of 2013 for the oil industry. I wonder how the $30 a barrel oil price is affecting this situation now. I have to imagine that it hurts.

 

Found this article. It's almost exactly a year old. States they are doing an $8.3 million re-do of the course. So much for that $5 million budget.

 

http://clubandresortbusiness.com/2015/05/05/midland-texas-clubs-immune-to-local-economic-slowdown/

[carrera]

Looks like they went with a different architect. I'd love to see a one-year update to that newspaper story about waiting lists etc at local clubs remaining robust despite the downturn in the local economy.

[smashdn]

Never plant trees. And never say never. But definitely never plant trees.

[GolfNuts4]

My club just signed a contract to have all the grass killed and replaced. They are also, tearing up the greens and replacing dirt underneath and redoing the bunkers. I know our grounds crew is going to be doing some of the work, but our quote from the contractor was somewhere around $1.5M.

 

Since this is something your club is going to be involved in I have a few questions.

 

Did the club look at doing anything to improve the drainage throughout the course? I've heard places initially look into doing the gas the grass method but only to have the end result not change then have to go back and spend money that would have been helpful in the beginning.

When redoing the bunkers are new liners and sand coming in or is it mostly a cosmetic fix?

For greens, are they already pushup/california style or is there a sand subgrade?

 

Just trying to find out some info about the course work. I've been involved in a few of them so feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

 

Wb

They are re-grassing everything, Celebration in the fairways and Tif Eagle greens. They are completely redoing the buckers and tearing the greens out, down to the drainage. I do not believe they are doing anything with the drainage but are putting down new sand and dirt. I really am not that close to the work, just a member. I live in Florida and our course is 15 years old, from what I can tell is that is the lifespan down in my area. There are about 8-10 other area courses that are closed this summer doing the same thing. Just heard the price tag is $1.8M. We have put money away, so no assessment.

[ruascott]

Expensive projects like this always seem to be conceived in boom times and executed in bust times. When this post first came up, it was the boom times of 2013 for the oil industry. I wonder how the $30 a barrel oil price is affecting this situation now. I have to imagine that it hurts.

 

Found this article. It's almost exactly a year old. States they are doing an $8.3 million re-do of the course. So much for that $5 million budget.

 

http://clubandresortbusiness.com/2015/05/05/midland-texas-clubs-immune-to-local-economic-slowdown/

 

725 members! Wow. For just an 18 hole course?

[az2au]

Expensive projects like this always seem to be conceived in boom times and executed in bust times. When this post first came up, it was the boom times of 2013 for the oil industry. I wonder how the $30 a barrel oil price is affecting this situation now. I have to imagine that it hurts.

 

Found this article. It's almost exactly a year old. States they are doing an $8.3 million re-do of the course. So much for that $5 million budget.

 

http://clubandresort...nomic-slowdown/

 

725 members! Wow. For just an 18 hole course?

When I lived in Malaysia for a year I used to play occasionally at a course called Bukit Jalil. They had 3,500 members for 18 holes. There were all kinds of lottery like aspects to getting a tee time and it wasn't cheap either. It is crazy what some clubs do.

[jptruck]

Expensive projects like this always seem to be conceived in boom times and executed in bust times. When this post first came up, it was the boom times of 2013 for the oil industry. I wonder how the $30 a barrel oil price is affecting this situation now. I have to imagine that it hurts.

 

Found this article. It's almost exactly a year old. States they are doing an $8.3 million re-do of the course. So much for that $5 million budget.

 

http://clubandresort...nomic-slowdown/

 

725 members! Wow. For just an 18 hole course?

 

I agree, that's a lot. Better to have more than enough than not enough. Looks like it's a family club. Probably a lot of social or tennis members in that allotment (if they do that sort of thing). If that's the case, I'm sure there will be a lot of grumbling about spending $10,000 per member on golf course renovations.