A Set For All Seasons

[profsmitty]

I have a set of Eye 2 laminates. I hit them pretty well but there is still, there is something about painted clubs that don't really look right. I love the look of grain. Just what turns you on I guess.

I wonder if part of the problem that some of us have wooden "woods" is the decreased shaft length. I know that the easiest culprit is the size of the head. I just have a hard time believing that is what is going on. Most of us hit the face of the club within a pretty small area on the club face. Whether its 200cc or 460cc, we are really only talking about a very small "real" striking area, aren't we? If we're comfortable with the length of the arc of the club, shouldn't we hit that small striking area regardless of the unused head around it?

[ABgolfer2]

Already have blades in the bag (3-9, 47, 53, 60) so if I want to go old school I just pull driver, 3-wood, and 2-H for a persimmon 2-wood.

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='Kirasdad' timestamp='1376022943' post='7638010']
And I have been thinking, along these same lines Scooter. These are obvious(except, apparently to me) good ideas. It's one thing to play vintage, and quite another to play whatever is in the barrel at Goodwill.
[/quote]

Thought this thread needed some rejuvenation today, and since I feel sort of ruminant today, here goes. But first of all, good move Kirasdad, and hope you've found something to agree to with Uncle Bob.

As discussed in other posts in the "Classic Golf and Golfers" forum, I'm looking at some changes or experiments to what is happening in the driver setup. I just received a Ping Eye 2 laminate in the mail yesterday that I'm going to try out before league tonight. I'm also thinking of throwing a steel 3W shaft into my Cobra head, and seeing how well that works at the recommendation of a certain Mr. Moore. BTW Tad, if you're reading this post, the only set of irons I still want are some Aussie Blades. The whole design (technically and aesthetically) just makes sense for players who need a lower CoG. But this digresses from the main thrust of today's discussion.

After working at this "bag for all seasons" for almost a month now, it is time to ruminate on what this adventure has led to. So at the risk of boring others with what I think is interesting, I'd like to walk through the bag, from putter-up. As we all know, Mr. Hogan always recommended starting practice with your shortest club first, and hitting driver last. I've (mostly) followed this approach through my adulthood, so why stop now? And the (mostly) is some days I prefer to start and end with the driver, as it is a gentler way to get the muscles warmed up.....

Putter - Based on its vintage alone, I felt that using a "blade" in the Anser mold was acceptable. The design has been around longer than my irons, and it is a likely the most prevalent style of putter on the market. However, our discussion led to the lost art of putting, where a ball could be moved around on the blade to affect its speed off the putter, or the face could be opened or closed [u]while putting[/u]! For a kid brought up in the era of SBST and Slotline Inertial putters, this was revolutionary. Not only revolutionary, but a reminder of something I had forgotten about. The putter I learned on was a true blade, and I used to know about the art of putting.

[i]What I learned: Putting should still be an art. And it is sad to realize that as you age, you begin forgetting that you've forgotten things. Without this discussion, I would have never, ever remembered this again. [/i]

Wedge - With all my modern wedges gone from the bag, things were a bit dicey. What to use from 60 yards? Getting out of the sand with a Pitching Wedge? Huh? What the heck did I used to do when I had only a 7 piece set? Then I ran into a 1950's Wilson Staff Harmonized wedge, and everything is good with the world again. Not only that, but my sand play is as good as it's ever been. Full stop.

[i]What I learned: Sometimes newer isn't better. And after fiddling with leading edges, bounce angles, etc., it ended up that having an old wedge with a big chunk of weight on its bottom works better on my home course sand than anything newer I've ever gamed. [/i]

Irons - At heart, we're all club junkies, with a lust usually kindled an unnattainability when we were young, or a simple attraction to aesthetics and form. And the attractive pricing on vintage means that we can try multiple sets, all at affordable prices.

Regardless, the irons I started with (FG-17) were kicked out of my bag by Apex IIs, which are in the process of getting kicked back out for the FG-17s. Once my lead tape arrives, and I raise the swingweight on the Apex IIs, the FG-17s may leave the bag for the Apex IIs, then it will snow, and I'll be stuck inside for 5-6 months. But this has been an excellent experience as this change has reminded me of two of the last three modern iron sets I've gamed. The FG-17s are my ARC Blades, with a muscleback, low CoG design, while the Apex II are my Eye 2s, with a light head on a stiff, light shaft, and weight spread more generally around the club head. I feel the FG-17/ARC clubhead through the entire swing, while I lose the Apex II/Eye 2 clubhead somewhere, and only find it when it hits the ball and announces what it did.

So now you're thinking "Scooter, what is the point?". The point is that if I had not been playing vintage sets, playing them side-by-side (almost), and had not been playing blades with feedback, I could jump from modern iron set to modern iron set, looking for the proverbial "holy grail". Because we know each set has 26 new features to help us improve our game and distance.

[i]What I learned: I like to play a shaft/head combo that I can feel through the entire backswing, which means a heavier head on an R flex shaft. And this experimentation and feedback would not have been possible with modern clubs. For the first time as a golfer, I have 100% confidence that I will play blades for the rest of my life, and now have a 100% grasp on the type of iron I should play.[/i]

[size=1]Though not to say I will get rid of the Apex IIs. I'm going to put some lead tape on them to heavy them up, while also putting lighter shafts in the FG-17s. And I have no issues spending cash on this because [u]I know[/u] this is right.[/size]


[size=4]Fairway Woods - I had never been fortunate enough to play a persimmon head before. Although I had played laminates growing up, persimmon was simply out of my league price-wise. So now when someone remarks "Ahh, remember the sound persimmon used to make", I can reply "Yes I do. I heard it last week." And I've honestly never hit FWs as well as I hit my Hogans, which makes no sense due to them having heavy Apex Pro 5 shafts in them. For someone who's banked his 100 MPH driver speed back to ~90 to keep his back and shoulder from falling apart, this makes no sense. But I hit them straight, and I hit them far, and they sound fantastic.[/size]

[size=4]In a way, they're the opposite of the irons - my old metal FWs had whippy shafts that let me feel the clubhead load, followed by a firm strike on the ball that could go in a number of sundry directions. The Hogans feel like swinging a 2" x 4". But they're shorter, torque less, and the results are superb.[/size]

[size=4][i]What I learned: Nothing sounds as good as a well-struck persimmon wood. Not every club setup is "one-size-fits-all". Match what gives you results and satisfaction to your game, and throw convention out the window. And make sure to show these to your playing partners, and remark on their beauty and quality of the build. And so far 100% of them will agree with the fundamental beauty of the club, and 50% will want to hit a ball with it. Share history and tradition with others.[/i][/size]

[size=4]Driver - Well this has been the only sort-of backfire on the whole bag for all seasons. Despite trying numerous weights, sizes, and flexes of vintage drivers, I have still not found my lumber (as OSR would put it). And the point of playing vintage golf was to get back in touch with my younger self - the kid who felt fortunate to be golfing in the first place, who had no expectations of shooting a par round, ever.[/size]

[size=4]However, this kid hated the tee box, usually duffed at least a few drives during a round, and developed his skill at FWs and putting out of the necessity created by needing to compensate for all the crap that came flying off the tee. This had an inverse effect for me; instead of my vintage bag providing me with peace and tranquility, it provided me with anxiety and dread. Talk about your unintended consequences. Also, talk about another case of forgetting that you actually forgot something. [/size]

[size=4]And the "full stop" called for on modern clubs was meant to move the focus away from scoring, and back to enjoying the journey, score be damned. But, the teebox horrors were running the journey. So I cautiously reintroduced the modern driver.[/size]

[size=4]And I was pleased by this - playing for only three weeks with nothing but vintage was enough to get the brain reset. Putting the modern (7 year old) driver back in the bag has not caused a Type-A, testosterone fuelled mad charge towards trying to set a course record or break par. It has returned my peace on the teebox, so that I can now concentrate on ball placement, shaping shots, and enjoying my day.[/size]

[size=4]After using my setup to set my all-time lowest round for the course last Friday, and after flirting with par that entire day, I realized that I was not micromanaging score; I was worried about making each shot the best I could. And I sank long putts. And I chipped in. And I made a birdie on a hole I never birdie. And best of all, this was fully enjoyed with my 13-year old, who was along as a companion and cheerleader on a lovely, sunny day. Going into my 9th hole (155 yd par 3), I was +1, and knew a birdie would give me my first Par round ever. After pulling my tee shot into a bunker, I knew the quest for Par was over. Still left the course with a best-ever 37 (+2) after lipping out my par putt.[/size]

[size=4]And I didn't care one bit. The first thing I said to my wife when she asked how golf was, "Boy did we ever have a nice time out there tonight".[/size]

[size=4]I'd say that's been a pretty successful "full stop".[/size]

[size=4]Not to say I'm still not tying to come to grips in rationalizing how I can justify a modern driver in a vintage bag. I am planning on putting a 3W steel shaft in my Cobra as a sort-of compromise. I may pick up a quality ~300 cc metal wood (not the Dunlop one I already have, thanks!) to see if I can make it work. And I'll still try some "lumber" - I have an Eye 2 driver sitting in my trunk right now, and it's begging to be abused. But at least this journey has been successful in getting the brain to reset. [/size]

[size=4]In many ways, it's a bit like those of us who drank too much in the halcyon days of our youth. If a bottle was cracked, a bottle was finished. There was no moderation - drinking was to get drunk, and the drunker, the better. As we get older, we reset this. A bottle of scotch in the cupboard may take two years to finish, as the focus has changed from drunkenness to enjoyment. Scoring is the same - golf is to score, or golf is to enjoy. [/size]

[size=4]These ideas are not mutually exclusive though. If you are drinking to enjoy company or a fellowship, and you accidentally drink too much, you end up with the same net result. It is usually a lot of fun (though not as much the next day). And if you golf for enjoyment, and happen to shoot a great score, it is also a lot of fun (and still is good the next day). The end result (drunk, score) may be the same as what was sought under another foci, but by taking the "right" approach to get to it, the spirit and person are nourished. [/size]

[size=4][i]What I learned: A bag for all seasons is as individual as the person who wields it. One should never become too pedantic over what is in it, be it by age, form, or opinion. They should only instead seek clubs that provide them with enjoyment of the game. A bag for all seasons is not about being a contrarian, or anti-establishment, or exclusively vintage. [/i][/size]

[size=4][i]It is about finding the tools that allow you to achieve true peace and happiness while on a golf course.[/i][/size]

[size=4]Think that is about the best lesson of all.[/size]

[oldschoolrocker]

SMac,
Nice post and glad you were able to reset. We seem to forget that GIGO applies to more than programming, although we could use the term ( programming) to define more than digital interface, as I suspect you have found.
This thread has brought me full circle as well, having established the tools in my bag for this season I now feel a freedom to once again turn my attention on how to most effectively use the tools.

Waiting to hear the report card on the Eye2.

[Froth]

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1376491914' post='7674918']
[size=4][i]What I learned: A bag for all seasons is as individual as the person who wields it. One should never become too pedantic over what is in it, be it by age, form, or opinion. They should only instead seek clubs that provide them with enjoyment of the game. A bag for all seasons is not about being a contrarian, or anti-establishment, or exclusively vintage. [/i][/size]

[size=4][i]It is about finding the tools that allow you to achieve true peace and happiness while on a golf course.[/i][/size]

[size=4]Think that is about the best lesson of all.[/size]
[/quote]
One of the best posts I've read here.

It took me a while to find a shaft I liked in my 17's because of the exact feel you are describing, I do not want to lose the head of the club at any point in my swing and this had me thinking I needed to soften the flex over what I really needed. In the end, I found that it was the shaft weight for me and not so much the way in which the shaft had to be loaded, though I couldn't even be bothered to try KBS tour shafts as any set I swung with them just felt "Bad". 120+g Shaft and FG-17's has me happy again, and I am well aware of where the club head is during my entire swing. My wedges were a little on the light side to me so I simply added 10g 1.25" extensions to the butt made from old shafts which got the total weight back up where it needed to be for them. I was hitting my irons like I remember hitting them yesterday, did not have a single bad strike all day, but I certainly made some off-target-line swings and I cannot possibly blame the equipment for that now! IF the ball goes left or right, it was my swings fault!

I had an epiphany on the 4th hole yesterday, I took my 2001 180ish-CC STEEL shafted 975F up to the tee box I almost always hit driver off of, and driver almost always gets me in trouble. To my surprise I rocketed a beautiful 3 metal, heading right for a bunker I normally aim to clear with my driver. Fearing the distance loss of the 3 metal I figured it would end up in the bunker and hopefully roll out or at least be in the flat. To my utter shock and amazement my ball CLEARED the bunker by a foot or so and rolled 5 yards forward into the fairway. Why the hell have I been hitting this 460cc Balloon on a stick if my 3 metal can do this? This was the best tee-shot I hit ALL DAY. I was smiling for at least 3 holes thinking about that tee-shot. The worst part? the very next hole I pull the Driver out and manage to pull it left through a tree. My stubborn self did not learn!

This post has prompted me to realize I may not be hitting my Current 460cc monster driver because of the size of the head(I am not, nor have I ever been comfortable with the tee height I am required to use with a 460cc head). I always hit my 312cc 975J with no issues and I liked the results more, It just lacked a good bit in distance over modern sticks. So, I ordered a Conforming 190g 351cc Srixon XXIO Generation 2 8° Driver head and I will be experimenting with that. Screw 460cc heads!!!

Perhaps now I will stop collecting 460cc Drivers that I use for one round then throw them in my Hogan bag in the corner because they made me angry. I should have NEVER taken my 975J apart, Ever.

[ScooterMcTavish]

^^^ Hee hee. "Screw 460cc heads!!!"

Interesting as I saw one of those XXIOs on globalgolf.com or 3ballsgolf.com the other day and thought, hmmmmm. Bit smaller, but deep enough profile. Kinda' neat. Plus, gives you the swag to hang out in the Japanese equipment forum.

Funny enough, when I do reshaft the Cobra, I'm planning on stuffing a bunch of cotton balls into the head too. Now that I've gotten used to the persimmon crack, everything else sounds like a violation of noise decency laws.

Reagrdless, when we start vacation this week, there will be a couple of days in the Twin Cities on the tail end where a visit to 2nd Swing in Minnetonka may be on the menu. Wondering if a 983K or a 905S might be on the menu......

[Froth]

This is the one I went with,
- [url="http://www.usga.org/equipment/images/conf_clubs/2003197.jpg"]http://www.usga.org/...ubs/2003197.jpg[/url]

I wanted something without grooves in the center of the face. I have however heard it makes an ear shattering high pitched noise so I will be stuffing it with cotton if that is the case, that should also help bring up that 190g weight to something like 205-210g.

The real question is, Do I put steel in it? Kind of tempted to put a DG Lite X-100 in it at 44.5"

[ScooterMcTavish]

Well you could wait until I get back from vacation and I do it with the Cobra......


Nahhhhhh! Do it! Stuff it full of cotton (or expanding draft sealer foam), and put a 43.5" in it.


Then you can beat me to the punch in the "Engineers" thread.

[dbuck47]

Professor,

I believe the head size is culpable due to the false sense of confidence it inspires. I remember when I first saw a Taylor Burner Bubble which was what-250-300cc? The ball looked like a marble and I thought,"no way I can miss!" I have a Firesole which is I believe the last of that series, and it looks small compared to the Ti 360 or the Titleist 905T in my arsenal.

One can miss, even with the Ti 360 as I demonstrated last evening. As you said, we are swinging for a very small spot regardless of the size of Volkswagon we are swinging. Yes you can miss that small spot a fraction of a centimeter more with the can and still have a less bad shot, but the good shots come from hitting the spot. I had two decent drives with the 360 yesterday. One on the 8th hole was not as good as the prior week's 7th hole 256 yard smash with a Joe Powell persimmon, and the one on the 9th was only about 5-6 yards longer than where I had hit a Joe Powell 3 wood a couple of weeks ago.

If one can use the smaller head as a point of focus rather than fear, and realize that the bigger head still has a small spot to hit, the perceived advantage may be less.

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='dbuck47' timestamp='1376674649' post='7688618']
If one can use the smaller head as a point of focus rather than fear, and realize that the bigger head still has a small spot to hit, the perceived advantage may be less.
[/quote]

Well dbuck, I can agree, but also disagree with you on this one.

Using the smaller head as a point of focus is something we claim gives us an advantage playing blades, and I do subscribe to this to some extent. I sure like playing my persimmon FWs.

However, the statement that the "bigger head still has a small spot to hit" is inaccurate. In the "Engineers to the forum" thread, Tad Moore does state that the new drivers have very technologically advanced faces, which are quite forgiving on most of the surface. His quibble with them is that most people would control them better with a heavier and shorter shaft.

If Tad Moore says it, I believe it. And from experience, I know a shot that is 1/2" off the "sweet spot" of my tomato can (heck maybe even as much as 1") will still go 90% of my best distance, while a shot 1/2" off the sweet spot of a wooden driver will be poor if not downright punishing.

Not to say I've given up on wood - my initial forays with my Eye2 driver have been promising. But I just can't seem to find the magic bullet combo of flex and loft yet. And I sure do hit the living snot out of my Hogan 5W - better than any other 5W I've ever owned.

[Froth]

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1376679882' post='7689190']
And I sure do hit the living snot out of my Hogan 5W - better than any other 5W I've ever owned.
[/quote]
On board with this comment 100%. I hit a goodwill bought $3 Bristol "Tour Model" Full-Brass soled Composite/Graphite 3 Wood from the mid 80's just as good if not better than my beloved 975F 3 Metal. One of the best 3 wood shots I have ever hit was with an abandoned $3 club, off the deck.

[DaveGoodrich]

I am a high single digit player that plays "recently old" clubs (see my signature). In golf, and in the rest of life, I don't believe that the latest is necessarily the greatest. I live in a house built in 1903, drive a 1967 Jeep and 1976 Chevy truck, love '70s era stereo equipment, etc. So it seems natural that I have found myself lurking in this forum a bit recently, even though I started playing golf in the 460cc, game improvement era. I tend to get caught up in the pursuit of a good score, and this thread has made me think about putting together a set of clubs purely because they are beautiful and fun to play, even though they may cost me a few strokes.

Anyway...

I recently picked up an [size=4]8.5/10[/size][size=4] [/size][size=4]set of 2003 Hogan Apex 50 blades at a pawn shop for $40. I couldn't resist, they were so beautiful. I want to put together a set of clubs to go with these irons. So far I have a Titleist 983e driver and 904f 4-wood. I never played wood woods, and I'm not willing to go that "classic." The 983e is easily long enough to compete with today's drivers, but like the Apex blades, requires you hit the (relatively small) sweet spot in order to make it perform. Some of the best feeling drives I have ever hit have come off that driver. The Hogans are only 4-E, so I will need something between the 4-wood and the 4-iron. [/size][size=4] I am not a purest, and I'm not going to hunt down and pay for the matching 2 and 3 irons (that I wouldn't be able to hit worth a darn anyway). [/size][size=4]Unfortunately, that will probably mean an older hybrid or two (maybe 503h with steel shafts? other ideas?). I have looked at some Hogan Riviera and Carnoustie wedges on ebay, which were sold at the same time as the Apex 50s. Might pick up a couple, but really, I'll probably just stick with my Vokeys. Wedges haven't changed much since 2003. [/size]

I'm already looking forward to putting this set it play. Thanks for the inspiration.

[Blade Junkie]

[quote name='DaveGoodrich' timestamp='1376983444' post='7710882']
I am a high single digit player that plays "recently old" clubs (see my signature). In golf, and in the rest of life, I don't believe that the latest is necessarily the greatest. I live in a house built in 1903, drive a 1967 Jeep and 1976 Chevy truck, love '70s era stereo equipment, etc. So it seems natural that I have found myself lurking in this forum a bit recently, even though I started playing golf in the 460cc, game improvement era. I tend to get caught up in the pursuit of a good score, and this thread has made me think about putting together a set of clubs purely because they are beautiful and fun to play, even though they may cost me a few strokes.

Anyway...

I recently picked up an [size=4]8.5/10[/size][size=4]set of 2003 Hogan Apex 50 blades at a pawn shop for $40. I couldn't resist, they were so beautiful. I want to put together a set of clubs to go with these irons. So far I have a Titleist 983e driver and 904f 4-wood. I never played wood woods, and I'm not willing to go that "classic." The 983e is easily long enough to compete with today's drivers, but like the Apex blades, requires you hit the (relatively small) sweet spot in order to make it perform. Some of the best feeling drives I have ever hit have come off that driver. The Hogans are only 4-E, so I will need something between the 4-wood and the 4-iron. [/size][size=4] I am not a purest, and I'm not going to hunt down and pay for the matching 2 and 3 irons (that I wouldn't be able to hit worth a darn anyway). [/size][size=4]Unfortunately, that will probably mean an older hybrid or two (maybe 503h with steel shafts? other ideas?). I have looked at some Hogan Riviera and Carnoustie wedges on ebay, which were sold at the same time as the Apex 50s. Might pick up a couple, but really, I'll probably just stick with my Vokeys. Wedges haven't changed much since 2003. [/size]

I'm already looking forward to putting this set it play. Thanks for the inspiration.
[/quote]

I like the Apex 50 design, and the 983E is a good choice as a "classic" metal wood as well.

For older hybrids, the original Taylormade Rescue Mid was a nice club. Try the 2H or 3H versions. Or maybe even the Titleist 585H in 19 degree

However, I think you should dip your toe in the water and maybe try a wooden 5 wood and see how that works for you in that gap between your 904F and 4 Iron. If you can hit a 904F then you can hit a persimmon fairway wood no problem, and the performance is in any case pretty comparable to a metal FW wood in my opinion.

The 904F 4 wood loft is 17 degree, I think, and the std loft for the Apex 50 4-iron is 25.5.

So if you can find a Ben Hogan Apex persimmon 5 wood like this one, 21.5 degree, then that would be a nice in fill between your 4 wood and 4 iron.

[attachment=1842926:Hogan 5-wood.jpg]


Here's my Apex 2003 set (same as the Apex 50) with the aforementioned 983e and my Hogan fairways:

[attachment=1843016:Apex 2003 Bag.JPG]


Interested to see which way you go, but well done on choosing to go down the Hogan blades route. Problem is it gets addictive and you end up wanting the whole damn Hogan back catalogue!

[ScooterMcTavish]

Welcome here Dave, and I do also share a love for 70s and 80s stereo equipment. Not for the home theatre mind you, but certainly for the basement where the vinyl is spun.

And going into this thread, I would have never thought of hitting wood again. Until I started hitting my Hogans. And my partners hit my Hogans last week in league. And despite them hitting the Hogan farther than their own metal clubs, they refuse to come to the light!

I'm not one to be pedantic about this, but hit a bunch of thrift store cast-offs and see if you find your muse in any of them.

[dpark]

[quote name='Blade Junkie' timestamp='1374242994' post='7490638']

The only real difference I find is with the driver off the tee.

As I see it you have a few options:

1. Play a modern driver, with everything else classic in intent (irons = blades, putter = blade or Bullseye) off the normal Mens back tees
2. As above but play a persimmon driver - and accept that you will be playing alot of fairway woods and long irons (or move tee forwards)
3. Play a nearly modern driver, but with a steel shaft. I have a "classic shape" Titleist 983K with 43" steel S/300 in it that feels ok to me in a "classic" set up. A 975D or 983E would also work.

I've tried all of these combos in club competitions. It's surprising how well you can compete!
[/quote]

I am 90% in agreement with the above. I find the two most valuable clubs in a modern set over a traditional set is the driver AND the sand wedge. When I want to play a friendly competition with my buddies, I swap out two clubs. My 2-wood for an Adams Super S 3-wood (that I can hit 250+ off the tee) and my Wilson Buttonback SW for my Scratch 56* SW.

I get great distance off the tee and a club that I can use to get up and down from greenside bunkers and rough. The irons and fairway woods also make a difference but not nearly as much as the driver and SW. I hit my persimmon 3 wood and 4 wood just about as well as my 16* metal wood and 20* hybrid, just not as far. As for the irons, I hit them a club less due to loft difference, but the big issue is lack of camber and bounce. On firm fairways, no biggie, but in softer conditions it makes a big difference. I putt with an 8802 so whether I putt with a DBAP or Napa, it really doesn't change much for me in that department.

However, for a real tournament, it is modern all the way. I don't want to give up distance, playability or forgiveness when playing for something important. For a $5 Nassau, I am happy to play with a combo set. For fun, its classic all the way.

[profsmitty]

[color=#ff0000]Help guys. There is something that I have been trying to figure out. Help me talk my way through this. [/color]

Can I assume that we are agreed that there is not much difference in feel or performance between an modern and a vintage forged blade head? This seems pretty obvious to me as I can't really believe that our metal technology has improved much over the last years. If there is a difference between the feel of a modern club and a vintage club [u]with a forged blade head and equivalent lofts,[/u] the difference must be attributable to the shaft?

[color=#ff0000]Am I overstating this?[/color]

If the above is true, shafting a vintage set "up" to a more modern shaft or playing a modern set should produce pretty much the same experience.

[color=#ff0000]Again, am I overstating this conclusion?[/color]

Unless we are talking about exotic putters (anchored putters of all types, putters with inserts, etc.) - a putter is a putter.

[color=#ff0000]Again, if I am over-reaching, please let me know.[/color]

Wedges are wedges except for the extreme loft varieties, there is not much difference here either.

[color=#ff0000]Where does all of this lead us?[/color]

It leads to metal woods and hybrids and the effects of modern shaft technology as defining the real differences between modern and vintage golf.

[color=#FF0000]Is this where we are (or should be) focusing our attention? [/color]

I think there is a reason that so many of us don't have a problem with vintage fairway woods in comparison with modern fairways - we either can't hit them regardless of the vintage or there is isn't much difference between them. I am inclined to agree with the latter. I think the reason is because of the size of the head. If you look at a vintage and a modern fairway wood head, they are pretty similar in size. There is no psychological hump to climb over, in other words. ( I need to think and know a ton more about this phenomenon before I jump to any hasty conclusions, I'm the first to admit)

[color=#FF0000]That leaves us with the driver and the ball. Are these two the real sources of our complaints about modern golf?[/color]

I'm very interested to hear your thoughts.

[birly-shirly]

Whose complaining?

I'm happy with my 12 year old driver - which is, in my opinion, MUCH more playable than the persimmons which I enjoy too. I don't like new drivers - largely based on the length of the shaft, which I think is unwieldy. But I'm not complaining - I just don't plan to spend any money on something that I think is either a minimal benefit, or a backward step. I don't care what anyone else uses - you certainly won't find me muttering about the new fangled monstrosities in my playing partners' bags. That's their business.

The ball? Again - who cares? I play what I find. I pick up more Pro Vs than I lose - and that keeps me in good quality balls for when the occasion demands it. If I was relying on scavenged balatas - I'd be stuffed, with a bag full of scuffed, cut and out of round balls. I'm not sure I understand these complaints about modern urethane balls not spinning. I have warm feelings about old balata balls - but no great urge to see them back as the ball to play regular golf with.

Would I like to see the ball on tour rolled back? Well, yes - I think maybe I would. But that has nothing to do with the enjoyment I get out of the game with a mix of classic (irons and putter), semi-modern (driver) and modern (ball) equipment.

I agree with you that the driver and the ball have made the biggest different in performance. Iron shafts, I'm not so sure there's much difference. Wedges - I think there's more choice, and more chance of finding one you like. I'm not sure that you really need 4 though.

I'm all for celebrating the good old stuff. I'm not on board with complaining about the present. I wonder how many people decrying modern clubs would have coughed up the list price for a new set of Hogans or MacGregors back in the day. I love that those clubs are accessible now (which is largely a function of the cheaper cost of new modern clubs) - but I would NEVER have justified spending the equivalent of thousands on a set of clubs back in the day.

[Froth]

[quote name='profsmitty' timestamp='1377117210' post='7720992']
[color=#ff0000]Help guys. There is something that I have been trying to figure out. Help me talk my way through this. [/color]

Can I assume that we are agreed that there is not much difference in feel or performance between an modern and a vintage forged blade head? This seems pretty obvious to me as I can't really believe that our metal technology has improved much over the last years. If there is a difference between the feel of a modern club and a vintage club [u]with a forged blade head and equivalent lofts,[/u] the difference must be attributable to the shaft?

[color=#ff0000]Am I overstating this?[/color]

If the above is true, shafting a vintage set "up" to a more modern shaft or playing a modern set should produce pretty much the same experience.

[color=#ff0000]Again, am I overstating this conclusion?[/color]

Unless we are talking about exotic putters (anchored putters of all types, putters with inserts, etc.) - a putter is a putter.

[color=#ff0000]Again, if I am over-reaching, please let me know.[/color]

Wedges are wedges except for the extreme loft varieties, there is not much difference here either.

[color=#ff0000]Where does all of this lead us?[/color]

It leads to metal woods and hybrids and the effects of modern shaft technology as defining the real differences between modern and vintage golf.

[color=#FF0000]Is this where we are (or should be) focusing our attention? [/color]

I think there is a reason that so many of us don't have a problem with vintage fairway woods in comparison with modern fairways - we either can't hit them regardless of the vintage or there is isn't much difference between them. I am inclined to agree with the latter. I think the reason is because of the size of the head. If you look at a vintage and a modern fairway wood head, they are pretty similar in size. There is no psychological hump to climb over, in other words. ( I need to think and know a ton more about this phenomenon before I jump to any hasty conclusions, I'm the first to admit)

[color=#FF0000]That leaves us with the driver and the ball. Are these two the real sources of our complaints about modern golf?[/color]

I'm very interested to hear your thoughts.
[/quote]
I'll take a stab at this. I'll number my thoughts as based on the order of your comments after what you say in red.

1- Feel is relative to so many factors, The composition of metal, the shaft design, the shaft material, etc.

2- I recently went to the local pro-shop to rack the pro's brain(I really trust him, he's almost like me) - This ended with me trying out a Mizuno Fly-Hi 2iron from his bag(I wanted to hit a 712U, didn't have one). I hit 20 balls back to back comparing the Fly-hi 18° 2iron and my FG-17 20.5° 3 iron - They were within 3/8" difference in length, the Fly-hi had a S300 Dynamic Gold in it and my FG-17 has a TT Tour concept X-100 in it. The maximum hit I had with the Fly-hi into their simulator(VERY accurate sim, I prefer to use theirs) was 266yds and 154mph ball speed. My FG-17 3-iron was a Maximum of 254yds and 148mph ball speed. Even the pro whistled when he saw a 30+yr old head spit out a 148mph ball speed. So, this would seem to answer your question - Modern heads provide nearly no advantage when properly struck. Forgiveness on off-center hits seems to be the largest gain of a modern head.

3- I use a putter from 1964 - A putter is a putter unless you're talking about some wild insert like the new ping variable depth grooves(they REALLY work on off-center hits for distance control). When a professional send their putter in to have the face insert changed to the variable depth face, you know it has to work - Pro's don't let people mess with their putters unless it's for a VERY good reason.

4- The largest difference in wedges is the grooves and 'Face balancing' - It comes down to what you prefer to play, honestly. I love my 30 year old wedges, I hit them and spin them very well. Because of my length I hit A LOT of wedges during a round and I do not notice any difference between my Cleveland .588's and my 30yr old Staff wedges as far as distance and spin are concerned. I actually prefer to play the Staff wedges, so they stay in the bag.

5- Modern Hybrids are CRAZY, I actually out-hit my 13.5° 975F with a 20° Anser hybrid. The Anser was 2.5" shorter as well as more accurate with a higher flight and softer landing. I can hit a 1980's WOOD fairway just as far as my 975F, but the forgiveness on mishits with the actual WOOD is very noticeable, even on slight mishits.

Finally - My Driver gives me the MOST problems out of EVERYTHING in my bag(I have hit probably 30-40 different drivers over the past two months) and I struggle with it the most. I am actually considering completely removing it from my bag. Accuracy, Not distance!

80% of the clubs in my bag are 30 years old or more, I still hit the ball just as far as the next guy in my swing-speed range because I have upgraded the shafts in ALL of them(minus putter). My 3-PW were purchased for $80 from goodwill, I spent more on the shafts and grips because that's what counts. A forged head is a chunk of metal - One chunk on a modern shaft is almost exactly the same as a modern chunk on a modern shaft. I prove it every time I play golf. My distances do not suffer on my irons AT ALL on ANY level. I shoot consistently in the 70's with a bag full of clubs that are mostly older than me. In fact, if I take my Driver, 3 metal and 5 metal out - My entire bag is older than me, just have modern shafts.

In summation - Modern shafts in Vintage iron heads work, they just flat-out work. Marketing is why people have those "rocketbladez" in their bag. In a 30 year gap the overall distance gain for a like-lofted forged blade with identical shafts is almost 0%. I can hit a newer Mizuno Blade exactly as far as I hit my FG-17's. There's a reason I don't replace them, and I likely NEVER will.

[profsmitty]

Froth - I think we are in general agreement.

Burly - "complain" isn't the best word, I agree. I am no Luddite. I am looking for THE set of clubs that will let me play golf that rewards all my senses. I want my clubs to be as visually beautiful, to be capable of feeling as wonderfully "pure", and to sound as pleasing as clubs have ever sounded. My problem, my complaint if you will, is that modern clubs have sacrificed many if not most of these esthetic qualities in the name of "enhanced performance". What I think we are seeing is that in many cases, vintage clubs with these sensually pleasing qualities don't necessarily have to suffer in terms of performance. Now, it's time to ask, are there modern clubs that don't have to suffer in esthetic qualities. Maybe the answer is "Yes".

[Bella Woods]

profsmitty:

Check out the PowerBilt FZ1 (Fuzzy Zoeller) irons.

Basically soft forged steel with some cavity and offset.

A set can be had for $100 to $150 on ebay. Very forgving set
with the steel of old in a "modern design".

[Froth]

What I think we are seeing is that in many cases, vintage clubs with these sensually pleasing qualities don't necessarily have to suffer in terms of performance. Now, it's time to ask, are there modern clubs that don't have to suffer in esthetic qualities. Maybe the answer is "Yes".

Oh, there are clubs out there that are modern and flat-out beautiful, The problem I find is that most of them are Japanese production. I believe there is a reason for this, as in the USA they are trying to make money by putting "The club that pro uses" in your hands and mass-producing as many of them as humanly possible to meet the demand, However in Japan they simply pack as much technology into the club as physically possible to help the average golfer and don't market it as "this pro uses it, you should" - This is why some Japanese Drivers can cost upwards of $1500 for a SINGLE club, The 2013 Srixon XXIO Prime, for example uses seven individual pieces of titanium that are welded together to provide the maximum benefits possible, the downfall is that is extremely costly to produce.

 

If I had unlimited money, I'd have a set of YURURI 2010 Flat Back irons in my bag. They are drop-dead flawlessly beautiful looking, they are HAND MADE, and cost $1800 for HEADS ONLY. They aren't trying to sell you something a pro uses, they took the time to make them with incredible precision without any fancy flashy features. Hell, they offer a finish that shows the belt-sanding lines on them! Also, they use normalized 1980's spec lofts!

But, I don't have unlimited money - and I can get the same performance out of a $100 set of irons made in 1982. So I do.

[Kirasdad]

Well, friend Froth, you obviously hit the snot out of the ball, with that kind of club head speed a different sort of driver may the ticket for you, like Phil's Frankenwood. I know Tad Moore from some hickory tournaments I've played in and he feels everybody's driver should be shorter and heavier with more loft (geeze, kind of like a persimmon). If you got yourself a 10.5 degree 983k with an x100 steel shaft in there you would hit that thing 280 at least, and a lot straighter I'd wager. I mean you're hitting your 3 iron 250, who needs an 8 degree driver. I know what you mean about the hybrids. I hit my brother in law's 19 degree Adams and flew it 215 yards on a par three uphill all carry. That's the equivalent of probably 225 on level ground, my fairway wood goes that far, but I have to nut it, and it's three inches longer than the hybrid!

FYI: those Japanese irons are gorgeous, but the lofts are a little juiced by 80's standards. My set of eye 2'a are from'84 and the PW is 50 degrees and the 5 iron is 28.5. The lofts on the Flatbacks are more late nineties early 00's.

[Froth]

So true about my driver issues, I am debating actually pulling it completely for my next round and hitting my 42.5" Steel shafted 975F fairway metal for a whole round. It's SO HARD to keep my Ego out of the game of golf though! The single hardest thing I have EVER tried to overcome is my own Ego, "oh, he out-drove me...Not next hole!" And i'll pull my driver 20yds left behind a tree... I'd like to find a 11 or 12° head with maxed CoR that I can reliably hit without it breaking on me. I broke a Callaway X-hot 3-Deep in Golf Galaxies Simulator bay...The face is just TOO thin to make the maxed CoR they've got packed into it(Most people don't know that Phil's 3-deep has a custom made thicker face). Yeah, Honestly I "hit the snot out of the ball" but I hate talking about it because it always seems to spark negative comments from some closed minded people. I'm actually working on increasing my clubhead speed even more through a massive hip rotation(Currently I max out at 120mph). Hip rotation is the single greatest key to an efficient golf swing, [i]Maximum distance with minimal effort[/i]. Most people cannot believe the distance I am able to hit the ball by watching my swing, I do not try to 'Overkill' my swing, I use simplified Loose, Fluid movements around my core. Arm strength has nearly nothing to do with it, it took me years to learn that. Look at Michelle Wei, She can kill the ball and she's teeny tiny with pencil arms!.

Yeah, I realize now that the lofts are a little juiced up on the Yururi's - I very slightly bent my 17's stronger so I always forget that they're not exactly "80's spec". They're one of the best looking clubs out there, and I'll probably never get to hit em. Nobody has em to try to hit, because they ONLY sell heads - they understand that the shaft must be tuned to the golfer, so selling a set with shafts would be a waste of money for both the purchaser, and for the company(Larger shipping box, higher costs, more to keep in stock, more to work out). They're not trying to sell 1000's sets to someone who will trade them in in two years time, they made them to be used until they're completely worn out, possibly never needing replacement.

Modern Hybrids are NUTS, I'm not even sure how they pack so much distance into them! I could not believe I hit a 20° 41" off-the-shelf X-Flex Anser 271yds. I was [i]dumbfounded[/i]. If I can convince myself to do it, I may replace my Driver/3/5 with a 17°/20°/23° Anser Hybrid. No driver, No fairway metals. I find myself wondering what they are a Hybrid of - the general consensus is they are a FW metal and an Iron. What if they're actually a Hybrid of a 1970's Persimmon and a Modern Driver. Shorter, Higher lofted, Smaller head. Modern driver technology, 1970's Driver Shaft length and head size.

Edit: Bang golf makes a 118cc 12° 1iron Hybrid!!!! Uh oh, I smell something I must try now!!

[oldschoolrocker]

Froth,
Sean (The Beast) Fister has a golf/fitness academy that opened up in my neck of the woods. I mention that because he is touting his own brand of drivers and driver fittings. Figure if he uses one they must hold up to high swing speeds. Check out his website.

[oldschoolrocker]

I have been on the hunt for some hickory clubs recently and until i can accumulate at least a proper playing set I am going to try this "set for all seasons" with a twist.

SEOM M85 4 wood- off the tee and fairway
1930ish faux 3 iron Louisville Powerbilt
Burke Zenith - 4,5,6 (if the shafts hold up)
1930ish faux sand iron Spalding
???? Faux Flangiron Billy Burke putter

Will test the waters with this combo. Will be using some old Strata balls.

[NRJyzr]

Froth, if you want to try a club that will stand up, locate an SMT driver. When they started up, that was one of their big keys, making a head that won't break.

And they were building for long drivers.

There are some on ebay for a pretty low price, and some folks who appear to be high when setting theirs. Typical ebay, in other words.

I've been thinking about reshafting one of their original models, it's 310cc. I just haven't gotten around to the reshaft, have a DGX300 lying in wait for it....

[TitlePured]

Great thread, appreciate reading many of the thoughtful posts.

Much has been said, especially earlier in this thread, about Ping Eye era irons being the turning point of golf equipment. I would just say that I think it was more of a revolution, probably the biggest advancement of quality iron production... being perimeter (cavity) weighted. Of course there is alot you can do with weight, offset, grinds. Which is seen in the different models, Eye 2 vs Zing. Personally, I am switching to PING ISI-s as my everyday set because I feel I am not at a disadvantage against newer clubs, like the raw shape and material of these clubs (not plasticky and tacky), and appreciate that they were made in the USA and are VERY durable. Many clubs made afterward, including by Ping, added plastic parts and uninspiring shapes.

I have spent much of the last 3-5 years buying and swapping newer golf equipment in search of clubs that will be better suited for me and improve my game. I must say that I think this has made the game much less enjoyable for me. I mean the actual game. I haven't been as focused on Golf as I have Golf's equipment and brands and marketing. In my opinion, what makes golf great is the combination of sport/ outdoors/ socializing/ style/ exercise/ weather. The least of all of these things is technology, for me anyway. I feel that technology is indirectly moving the sport in the wrong direction, demanding longer golf courses and directing more money to new equipment than to golf courses and golf instruction. I am on the side of the USGA/ R&A reigning in equipment advancements and developing standards. If they didn't were would it end? Laser alignment, spring/ powered clubs and shafts, auto correcting golf balls? I think the premium needs to be placed upon the golf swing and that could be accomplished by dialing back equipment.

This leaves me at the conclusion that I will play equipment that I like to hit and look at that also doesn't leave me at a noticeable disadvantage when playing competitively. It is possible that my ISI irons, 962b irons, r7 425, 983e, TearDrop putter, is as technologically advanced as golf equipment will get or needs to be. Unfortunately it has taken me a couple thousand dollars and hundreds of hours to come to this conclusion. Hopefully now I can enjoy the game more, being at peace in the equipment department. Just have to tune out the marketing and what the tour guys have in the bag.

[oldschoolrocker]

Well Title, Just be thankful you have seen the light. Understand about more focused on equipment than the actual game . That's how the marketing boys get the $$$ out of our pockets and into the OEM cash register. Since I have stopped chasing the angry fix of new equipment the joy has returned to my game along with better scoring.

[birly-shirly]

[quote name='profsmitty' timestamp='1377129997' post='7722180']
Froth - I think we are in general agreement.

Burly - "complain" isn't the best word, I agree. I am no Luddite. I am looking for THE set of clubs that will let me play golf that rewards all my senses. I want my clubs to be as visually beautiful, to be capable of feeling as wonderfully "pure", and to sound as pleasing as clubs have ever sounded. My problem, my complaint if you will, is that modern clubs have sacrificed many if not most of these esthetic qualities in the name of "enhanced performance". What I think we are seeing is that in many cases, vintage clubs with these sensually pleasing qualities don't necessarily have to suffer in terms of performance. Now, it's time to ask, are there modern clubs that don't have to suffer in esthetic qualities. Maybe the answer is "Yes".
[/quote]

Seriously - I think we're living in a golden age in terms of the availability and quality of golf equipment. Not for the manufacturers maybe - who seem to be locked into a war of expensive endorsements, high design turnover and low cost volume manufacturing.

But as consumers, I doubt if there's ever been a better time to buy a great set of clubs that satisfy your aesthetic tastes. The arse has fallen out of the collectibles market - and classic irons and woods are available very cheaply, so you can find your best set by trial and error. Ebay and other internet markets are a massive enabler for this. You just need to not fetishise the purchase or ownership of "new" clubs.

Not just that - but through the published work of guys like Maltby, Wishon, Summit and others, we've got better information than ever before about how golf clubs actually work, and how they should fit. If you're willing to read, you can cut through the marketing fluff to look for the clubs that you really need and want. I really believe that you should be able to find a club that you love the look of - and maximise the function and playability through what we now know about shafts, weight, balance and grind. We've also learned a bit about the things that really don't matter all that much.

You've even got (if you're in the states, to make shipping feasible) companies like the Iron Factory who can do a great job resurrecting a favourite set that's fallen on hard times.

The one thing I'm pessimistic about is whether the skills will survive to keep persimmon woods in decent playing condition.

You might even find what you're looking for in current inventory. There are niche companies like Scratch and Fourteen, you've got Japanese exotica, and you've got custom fitters all supplying clubs and choices and value for money that I suspect just wasn't available back in the day when your option was to cough up for the Macgregor custom shop. I even think that the major OEMs (boo-hiss!) are offering more "traditional" choices than they did 10 or 15 years ago. I haven't seen sales figures, but it seems like Wilson, Titleist, Callaway and TM (even Ping, in their Ping-ish way) have catered more in recent years to the player who wants blades. Even Mizuno got a little adrift when they went all T-Zoid for a while there.

[Kirasdad]

[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1377173824' post='7724326']
I have been on the hunt for some hickory clubs recently and until i can accumulate at least a proper playing set I am going to try this "set for all seasons" with a twist.

SEOM M85 4 wood- off the tee and fairway
1930ish faux 3 iron Louisville Powerbilt
Burke Zenith - 4,5,6 (if the shafts hold up)
1930ish faux sand iron Spalding
???? Faux Flangiron Billy Burke putter

Will test the waters with this combo. Will be using some old Strata balls.
[/quote]

OSR,

PM me, I have great hickory guys that are honest brokers that you can check out. Also I have some players that I don't use myself. I played in two US hickory Opens and know quite a few guys that buy/sell/trade players and not unplayable "collectables".