Random conversation thread

[birly-shirly]

Thanks OSR. Also strictly word of mouth, but I heard a completely different story as to how the R&A operates its Open. Speaking to one member of a roster club whether there was much visible change in the conditioning of the course in a championship year, and he shrugged and said not really. Now I know the R&A does work extensively with the host clubs, but it doesn't sound as bruising an experience

[NRJyzr]

Following the 2004 US Open at Shinnecock, the word going around the golf forums at the time was that the USGA had killed the 7th green, and possibly a couple others.

 

Looking at the greens this weekend on TV, it sure looked like they were trying to do it again. And may have succeeded.

 

Seems to me the Royal & Ancient don't have any problem conducting a major, with green speeds running a few feet slower than we usually see at Tour events. You'd think the USGA would eventually learn something...

[hnryclay]

What's the point in playing different courses if they try to make them all play the same? Courses should stimp there greens in a fashion that allows for the overall design of the course to come into play. The USGA wants to have the hardest vs par tournament in the game. Is that what we as a golfing community in this country want? I agree that the R and A do a much better job with The Open, and it is much more enjoyable to watch. There is no point in changing venues every year if all the greens are cut and rolled in a fashion that makes putting, and approach shots difficult just to be difficult.

[TimV]

It won't change until courses bow out.

Sorry, no longer interested, saw what you did to the last guy.

Now understand that I do support the idea of making the Open one of the hardest events, toughest tests, in golf.

However that needs to be done without radically changing the course and it certainly shouldn't result in ruining the course!

[Tumbleweed_1968]

The "toughest test in golf" would be a course setup that brings the entire bag into play, one in which the skill set required was large and varied, and where creativity and shot making was rewarded. The vast majority of US Opens that I have watched in the last decade have had none of that. In fact, I am struggling to remember an Open that was memorable.

 

I find it interesting that I remember a LOT more Open Championships than US Open Championships.

 

And while I am on the subject, why the shaved areas around the greens? I find that it is much more interesting to watch creative wedge shots out of heavy collars or rough. Let's see long irons into the greens. Let's see iron's off of the tees. Let's see more water hazards, moguls, deeper & rougher traps, more trees. I'm looking forward to Pebble Beach next year. Hopefully they won't make it too gimmicky.

[BIG STU]

Something no one has pointed out on any of the main forums and all. Back when that course was designed they played Hickory clubs and I think maybe the Gutta Percha ball. Now when it was redesigned that was the balata days. Everyone on here knows the difference between hitting a balata ball and a modern one especially with the newer hot faced clubs. And also back when the course was designed you did not have the mowers they have now. Someone either on Fox or the GC pointed out that when the course was built they used goats to mow the grass. I know for a fact a goat will not eat grass as close as a mower cuts it now. After all the goat has enough sense not to get dirt into it's mouth. With the undelations of the greens that course was never designed to have the grass on the greens cut that close. Think about it. They are trying to monkey up or set up courses in a manner they were not designed to be played in

[Chris122]

I thought the Fox commentators were very good,some of the points they raised I mentioned in an earlier post here,they also pointed out that the reason why there was a significant absence of links-type shots was because these blokes are not going to try to learn or practice something different for one week of the year when their stock in trade is bomb and gouge,that most will be happy to wait until they play a course that's been saturated by rain.

In any case,it doesn't matter how difficult the course is,you have to play what's in front of you,par is just a number and only a guide,it's all down to taking fewer strokes,however you do it,than the rest of the field.

I would have loved to see Trevino at his best round there.

[BIG STU]

I thought the Fox commentators were very good,some of the points they raised I mentioned in an earlier post here,they also pointed out that the reason why there was a significant absence of links-type shots was because these blokes are not going to try to learn or practice something different for one week of the year when their stock in trade is bomb and gouge,that most will be happy to wait until they play a course that's been saturated by rain.

In any case,it doesn't matter how difficult the course is,you have to play what's in front of you,par is just a number and only a guide,it's all down to taking fewer strokes,however you do it,than the rest of the field.

I would have loved to see Trevino at his best round there.

The Merry Mex would have decimated them. Trevino was a true shot maker a lot of the analysts now say he was a good ball striker which he was but he had a fantastic imagination and could make things happen. But part of it was the course especially on Saturday. Saturday was a Catch 22. Like how in the hell can you do a run up when there is no grass on the green to hold it or no fringe to soften it going on or stopping it from rolling off the other side? On the other hand how can you spin and stop one on concrete and no grass. I don't give two hoots how good you are and how good those modern balls spin. When I saw Phil hit a wedge close and trying to spin it Saturday and he did not stop it. I told the wife well there is no living human being that can stop one on that green. Trevino would have figured a way to keep the ball on the green Saturday

[TimV]

This...

 

https://www.golfadvi...aign=EmailJun18

 

"Brooks Koepka, who successfully defended his U.S. Open title, was among the players who did not give in to the wave of negativity about the course that started with Zach Johnson’s comments Saturday afternoon that the USGA “lost” the golf course. It gets tiring listening to these guys forget that working for a $12-million purse is supposed to be hard work. They have come to expect flawless, predictable uniformity week after week and expect that from the USGA as well. They were joined by too many journalists who are not sufficiently skilled in the nuances of course design and agronomy and who are looking for something controversial to write or comment about."

[oldschoolrocker]

As Stu said, the green complexes and surrounds were built back in the day fo compliment one another. To constantly tinker with them to the point of shaving a surround here, speeding up a green there, let’s go collarless, bevel the now collarless green so the ball runs merrily down the now shaved slope...

Not what I think the old masters had in mind when they commissioned the courses.

I have yet to see the Mona Lisa as a Blonde.

Of course this is all easy for me to arm chair quarterback while sitting in my breezeway, sipping sweet tea, and, watching my tomato plants grow.

[Chris122]

This...

 

https://www.golfadvi...aign=EmailJun18

 

"Brooks Koepka, who successfully defended his U.S. Open title, was among the players who did not give in to the wave of negativity about the course that started with Zach Johnson’s comments Saturday afternoon that the USGA “lost” the golf course. It gets tiring listening to these guys forget that working for a $12-million purse is supposed to be hard work. They have come to expect flawless, predictable uniformity week after week and expect that from the USGA as well. They were joined by too many journalists who are not sufficiently skilled in the nuances of course design and agronomy and who are looking for something controversial to write or comment about."

 

I think this is spot-on,thanks Tim.

[BIG STU]

This...

 

https://www.golfadvi...aign=EmailJun18

 

"Brooks Koepka, who successfully defended his U.S. Open title, was among the players who did not give in to the wave of negativity about the course that started with Zach Johnson’s comments Saturday afternoon that the USGA “lost” the golf course. It gets tiring listening to these guys forget that working for a $12-million purse is supposed to be hard work. They have come to expect flawless, predictable uniformity week after week and expect that from the USGA as well. They were joined by too many journalists who are not sufficiently skilled in the nuances of course design and agronomy and who are looking for something controversial to write or comment about."

I agree basically. I even used one of my old man's lines on a thread over in the main section "everyone is playing the same course" Like I agreed on another post Trevino would have figured out how to play the course and so would have Jack,Seve and Watson.

[BIG STU]

As Stu said, the green complexes and surrounds were built back in the day fo compliment one another. To constantly tinker with them to the point of shaving a surround here, speeding up a green there, let's go collarless, bevel the now collarless green so the ball runs merrily down the now shaved slope...

Not what I think the old masters had in mind when they commissioned the courses.

I have yet to see the Mona Lisa as a Blonde.

Of course this is all easy for me to arm chair quarterback while sitting in my breezeway, sipping sweet tea, and, watching my tomato plants grow.

On the same lines I feel there is a special spot in hell for anyone jacking around with a Donald Ross design. I have seen a couple messed up when they were "redesigned". Love Ross courses as long as some yahoo does not jack with them and screw them up

[twidener]

It would have been fun to see how the four of them played the course. Your right BIG STU, I think they would have found a way.

[hnryclay]

As much as I hate to see millionaires whine, what the USGA did to that course was just dumb. The tournament would have been plenty hard enough, and we would have seen more of the "old school" run ups and pitches if they would have stimped the greens at 10, and cut the fairways a full half inch higher. However I think our nations idea of golf is not the same as the posters in this forum, or the same as the "purists" in the USGA. I will always watch, but really hope they dont butcher Pebble Beach, or any of our other national treasures the way they did this past weekend. I really like the idea that it is not a PGA tournament, but that does not mean it should be a tricked up Putt Putt to make up for last years embarassment. I guess in the end I dont understand the political workings of our national governing body when it comes to course setup, or selection. If it was up to me all the opens would be played on courses setup as close as possible to the original architechts plans. What Saturday was is just not good for the game. I understand weather etc... but there is rarely a reason in life to tirn it up to 11, and in course setup, I fail to ever see one.

[SteveNZ]

Some good stuff here I reckon...

 

http://www.friedegg.co/blog/2018-us-open-setup

[oldschoolrocker]

Thanks for the link Steve

[scomac2002]

Thanks for the link Steve

 

+1 :yes:

[TimV]

Some good stuff here I reckon...

 

http://www.friedegg....8-us-open-setup

 

Oh H_ll Ya!!!

[Chris122]

Some good stuff here I reckon...

 

http://www.friedegg....8-us-open-setup

 

An excellent piece of writing,Golfwrx staffers would do well to read,learn and inwardly digest as would the USPGA.

[rangersgoalie]

This...

 

https://www.golfadvi...aign=EmailJun18

 

"Brooks Koepka, who successfully defended his U.S. Open title, was among the players who did not give in to the wave of negativity about the course that started with Zach Johnson’s comments Saturday afternoon that the USGA “lost” the golf course. It gets tiring listening to these guys forget that working for a $12-million purse is supposed to be hard work. They have come to expect flawless, predictable uniformity week after week and expect that from the USGA as well. They were joined by too many journalists who are not sufficiently skilled in the nuances of course design and agronomy and who are looking for something controversial to write or comment about."

I agree basically. I even used one of my old man's lines on a thread over in the main section "everyone is playing the same course" Like I agreed on another post Trevino would have figured out how to play the course and so would have Jack,Seve and Watson.

 

Unless it was Augusta!! :)

 

[rangersgoalie]

It's funny to see writers blaming technology when courses like Winged Foot (Irwin). Oakland Hills.

Olympic and other were over the top before all of this technology....they push setup too far in the past, and willmin the future

 

They pick great courses. They then push greens speeds and firmness levels to the point of on a green like 18 at Shinnecock, there is a sliver of green that is even close to being good for a hole location.

 

If you pick a great course, and love the greens , and then set it up where you can't use most of those greens, it's just stupid.

Slightly slower, opens up more green to use and in many cases, better hole locations....

[BIG STU]

Sorta off topic but here it goes--- Talked to Eilidon (Mike) from Texas on the phone the other day and he said to tell you guys he is doing fine. He is wanting to move back to the Carolinas where he is from anyhow maybe to my area. Hope he does and we can kick off the vintage golf here

[dbuck47]

I thought I would drop in and say hello. I have not visited in a while, but I see that the conversation is as robust as ever.

 

Well I have been on the dark side of golf for last season and this. After playing basically the same modern bag for twenty years, I have been through it over last season and this basically changing out the whole bag. One item that does make it back into the bag on occasion is my old Wilson putter from 1980. It is amazing to me that the simple leather grip on this putter is non-conforming, while the Supersoft backweighted mid-slim on my Odyssey is.

 

As to the U. S. Open, I agree that everyone played the same course, but also agree with others that it was out of control on Saturday. The USGA seems to have an unreasonable obsession with par. Make the course difficult but fair, and let these guys shoot what they will. Everyone also played the same course on Sunday.

[Chris122]

I managed to watch a reasonable amount of the Open Championship courtesy of the free streaming via the Open website,it consisted of either the 'featured group' or holes 8,9,10 as competitors played through them.

Carnoustie looked (for once) like a proper Open course,baked fairways,spindly rough and super greens with good not silly pace and very true.

Biggest surprise was the lack of serious wind (commentators excepted) over the four days although even here on the same east coast we've had nothing above 8 or 9 mph for the last ten days or more which is almost unheard of.

Francesco (please,not Frankie!) Molinari was a worthy winner managing to keep his head when all around lost theirs and for me that was the essence of the event and demonstrated conclusively that despite what the PR boys say the current crop of players are not as good as they think they are especially when you consider that a 42 year old with a fused back very nearly made it to the Claret Jug.

UK journo's particularly on the BBC worship Rory McIlroy who blew his chance of winning on Thursday by being stupidly aggressive with his driver,a strategy that he changed for Friday when it rained because moisture on the face of his driver meant that the strike was less consistent.

Now as he couldn't hit the fairway with a dry clubface,what difference could it make?

In fact there hardly seems to be a brain cell amongst these guys if the 8th hole can be used as evidence.

Par 3,playing 180-190 yards depending on pin position,most would have been hitting 6 or 7 irons,maybe the odd 5 iron,slight breeze from the left and very,very few hit the green.

Playing in threes I watched as the first player hit (on tracer) a baby draw starting right and moving towards the pin,as the ball slowed the breeze moved right and either into or wide of the bunker.

Player two does the same.

Incredibly,player three follows exactly the same pattern.

When I read of the immense skills that these guys are meant to have I wonder if the author watched the same as me.

After Tommy Fleetwood's fine showing in the US Open I fancied his chances last week but blown away by feeble putting,using that claw grip which I don't see giving enough control on long putts that need to be struck firmly.

Whilst pleased for Molinari and the potential boost for Italian/European golf and even though pre-Open he was World no.15 I don't see him as anything more than a good tour professional,his Ryder Cup half with Woods has been much touted but the reality was that Woods gave him a half when the result had been decided and although he's won plenty I would hardly place him with European golfers of the past like Seve,Woosie,Sandy,Bernhard and Sir Nick.

Times change I guess,I used to be so excited about the Masters and the Open,I always took Thursday off work to watch the Open from start to finish,about 10 solid hours viewing but now find I'm becoming rather indifferent and enjoy the Tour de France more.

[TimV]

I was with you until this...

"and enjoy the Tour de France more. "

;)

[birly-shirly]

I enjoyed what I saw of the Open. I think it's interesting that, for all the hand-wringing about distance, the course played short but still not easy, and the wind could have added another level or two of difficulty above that.

 

I don't know that i'd draw many conclusions about the field's competence from how they played the 8th, which has OoB down the left. Especially with a side wind, you'd be happy to miss on the right.

 

As for comparisons with previous generations of golfers, I didn't go up to Carnoustie, but I followed Robert Rock and Westwood the previous week at Gullane which was set up to play a lot easier. They are both reputed ballstrikers, and seeing them up close does nothing to dispel that. Barring a long par 3 in a cross-wind, I don't recall seeing either of them really miss a shot - in spite of neither of them being at the sharp end of the leader board so I don't think right on top of their game. Even so, they were essentially level par for their rounds.

 

On the other hand, I remember seeing Lyle and Parnevik around Carnoustie years ago - again both quality ballstrikers in their day - but hitting more loose shots.

 

I think we can be a bit harsh on Rory and the like. Rory is actually putting together a better record in the Open than I ever thought he would. Before Tiger came along, my recollection is that the average Open winner did not USUALLY threaten from year to year when they played. I don't think any of Lyle, Woosnam or Langer were any better than 50:50 to place in the top 10 in any given year. Golf is fickle, and it's very rare for any player to dependably contend, like a Nicklaus, Watson or Faldo.

 

Molinari? He doesn't have the power to either club down and play conservatively, or take the fairway bunkers out of play and wedge it from the rough - and I always enjoy watching someone drive the ball that well coming down the stretch.

[birly-shirly]

Just thinking aloud here, but the one other thing that struck me watching the Open was that the greens had clearly been watered very carefully and copiously, whilst the fairways were lying in close to their natural state - or at most on life support.

 

I guess there's a fine line between a green green and one that has burnt out and cracked. Possibly that line is less fragile when the grass is longer and the green is slower. But those greens must have been much more receptive than the fairways, and I can't help wondering how the course would have played if that hadn't been the case,

[Chris122]

Tim,I love watching the Tour for different reasons,it is a classic sporting event,team tactics,herculean effort in climbing mountains,heart-stopping moments watching Alaphilippe descending at literally breakneck speed round hairpin bends all set within scenery that is both beautiful and full of history and the riders with maybe a couple of exceptions seem very grounded and not at all 'precious'.

It is a spectacle and feast for the eyes.

To follow on from my 'Open' comments,I would add that the 8th hole played as the 6th most difficult hole of the Championship.

It is 187 yards on the card and not a small green,yes,there's OB left of the green but the prevailing breeze was blowing from the left away from it.

Watching them play the 8th I can only remember one or two who stood up and hit a straight shot into the heart of the green,most were teeing up on the left side then trying a soft draw back into the green which didn't work because of the breeze.

OK,so you play away from OB but it's impossible to hit enough draw to bring it back without risking a hook over the fence.

What is wrong with teeing on the right side and hitting a shot at the right edge of the left hand bunker allowing the breeze to work it?

As for McIlroy,his short game and putting are poor,his attitude is equally poor happy to accept finishing second while Woods was pained at not finishing it off.

McIlroy talks his game up but fails to deliver too often,he talks about 'taking the positives' but when the negatives (wedge and putter) outweigh the positive (big drives) it's surely time to step back and get a grip,unless of course he's happy to doddle along as he is,he certainly gives the appearance of not being bothered (bank account is healthy) and is hoping that maybe at Augusta next year it will all come right and he'll win.

I don't think he actually enjoys golf any more,it's just a job that happens to pay rather well.

Top UK player for me was Justin Rose,always gracious,played well and a tremendous ambassador for golf.

 

Edit; btw did my own mini-tour today,I played golf this morning cycled down to the station for the return train which was cancelled!

This was at 13.30,the next train was 15.12 or saddle up and ride out on my Giant.

Filey to Bridlington via main road is 10 miles but the main road is highly dangerous for cyclists so I took the back roads which zig-zag across the countryside (mostly single track),very,very hot,my rucsack full of shopping(!) 17.6 miles,home at 15.20,sweaty,tired legs but enjoyed it!

[TimV]

I can see that Chris.

It's certainly far more fun to watch than NASCAR which should be named RHCR (Redneck Hillbilly Car Racing)

which is sooo fun to watch... Left Turn, Left Turn, Left Turn... ;)