Forward Shaft lean - can you create it with your hands and arms?

Tanner25Tanner25 Members Posts: 6,218 ✭✭
edited Mar 28, 2019 11:57pm in Instruction & Academy #1

Thought this video deserved it's own thread. Can you create forward shaft lean or is it only the result of a proper sequenced swing. I've always swung the club into the ball, this video suggests otherwise by swinging the shaft ahead of the ball.
(start at 5:30)

Comments

  • RichieHuntRichieHunt Members Posts: 3,646 ✭✭

    I think it has to be both. I think some can probably use a little more arms and hands than others. For example, David Orr and I were talking about this. I've known David since I was 14 years old and he's always been a really good ballstriker. He told me that as a kidhe was out plying one day and he started to feel the #3 Pressure Point (padding under the trail index finger) and just used that from there on in on his swing and he's always had a healthy amount of lag and forward shaft lean. Now...he does need a pivot action to go along with that.

    For myself, i could never feel that #3 PP. Doesn't mean I don't generate lag and produce forward shaft lean. For me, when I get the most amount of shaft lean, it's feels pivot related. Of course, there is hand movement and wrist angles involved.

    RH

  • hacker49hacker49 Members Posts: 484 ✭✭

    I have been working on this in the last few lessons I have taken. In my experience it can only be created as a part of a complete swing. If my stall my turn then my hands get in front of the club and wham I miss the shot. If I don't turn fast enough my hands get in front of the club and wham I miss the shot. If I get the turn right but flick my wrists then wham I miss the shot. That is the problem with a golf swing. All those things have to be timed just right or it doesn't work. Luckily I have finally gotten most of the swing problem worked out so I only have one thing I really need to work on.

  • Tanner25Tanner25 Members Posts: 6,218 ✭✭

    I hope this is not a wood tip (works for only one day). But, I pull through on the forward swing with my left hand and create forward shaft lean. I was hitting it better than usual.

  • Tanner25Tanner25 Members Posts: 6,218 ✭✭

    Good news, this tip worked for 9 holes. My best iron ball striking day ever. Just as Adam B said in the video (start at 7:15), think of swinging the shaft (ahead) of the ball, not club head to ball which would lead to a flip. If this is nothing new, how do you apply this to a driver?

  • BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,658 ✭✭

    Well the driver you actually want to hang back. I think . Irons need forward shaft lean to compress the ball into the turf. Driver is sweeping, 3 woods , 5 woods, any woods are sweeping off the turf. Hybrids are a mix, hence the name hybrid, sweeping and compressing against a bit of turf.
    I'm no instructor though. Just insights I have discovered.

  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,745 ✭✭

    Only two things are required to have forward shaft lean:

    1. The hands must remain passive;

    2. The arms must move or be moved fast enough to carry the hands past the ball prior to impact.

    Do those two things and you get shaft lean, retained lag and a downward strike on the ball.

    Steve

  • happyromanhappyroman Members Posts: 1,306 ✭✭

    I agree with juststeve. IMO, forward shaft lean is not something one should need to "try to do." It should be the natural occurrence of a sound swing where the hands, as Hogan said, simply hold onto the club. Physics will release the club for you if you allow the hands to remain passive. A good example of this is discussed in Fred Shoemaker's Extraordinary Golf, where he had his students do a drill where they threw the club down range. The difference in the before and after slomo photo sequences shown in the book are startling. Another way to think about it is that if you try to "hit" the ball, and in effect, make it your target, as opposed to swinging the club through the ball, the tendency will be to throw away lag and release early, ruining any chance of maintaining forward shaft lean.

    Once the swing has been trained so that the release occurs naturally, it is a matter of maintaining a steady swing center (which allows one to consistently allow the clubhead to bottom out in the same place for the particular club being swung) and placing the ball in the correct place. If you think of the clubhead path as generally being circular in shape (yes, I know it is really more elliptical), then from the top of the downswing it is travelling on a downward path. It will then bottom out as it impacts the turf, resulting in taking a divot, and then begins to ascend to the finish. If the ball is positioned on the clubhead path in the spot just before the clubhead makes contact with the turf, and you have not thrown away your lag as described above, then you will have forward shaft lean. If you are swinging correctly and have the ball in the correct position, you do not have to try to produce forward shaft lean. The amount of the downward strike and forward shaft lean will be determined by the golfers physical make up (i.e., how tall, etc.) and the length of the club.

    For those trying to hit the ball with an ascending strike with the driver, the same aspects of the swing also apply. Once the clubhead bottoms out and begins to ascend, the ball just needs to be in a place where the clubhead will impact it as it continues on it's basically circular path and is on the way up.

  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers Posts: 6,380 ✭✭

    @BB28403 said:
    Well the driver you actually want to hang back. I think . Irons need forward shaft lean to compress the ball into the turf. Driver is sweeping, 3 woods , 5 woods, any woods are sweeping off the turf. Hybrids are a mix, hence the name hybrid, sweeping and compressing against a bit of turf.
    I'm no instructor though. Just insights I have discovered.

    The ball is never compressed against the turf. Unless you have golf clubs with negative loft.

  • Tanner25Tanner25 Members Posts: 6,218 ✭✭

    OP here, I am still having success with it. I agree, it might not be optimal to force forward shaft lean. But, as a high capper, it's working for me. One other positive of this is when you swing the shaft forward of the ball, it puts your weight forward. This is a lot better than a spin out and hang back swing than I am used to.

  • BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,658 ✭✭

    @HitEmTrue said:

    @BB28403 said:
    Well the driver you actually want to hang back. I think . Irons need forward shaft lean to compress the ball into the turf. Driver is sweeping, 3 woods , 5 woods, any woods are sweeping off the turf. Hybrids are a mix, hence the name hybrid, sweeping and compressing against a bit of turf.
    I'm no instructor though. Just insights I have discovered.

    The ball is never compressed against the turf. Unless you have golf clubs with negative loft.

    Then golf digest has it wrong??!!
    “This is a clear sign that you're compressing the ball, trapping it between the clubface and the turf, which will result in a divot on the forward side of the ball.”
    https://www.golfdigest.com/story/tigertips_gd0703

  • hurley999shurley999s Members Posts: 165 ✭✭

    @BB28403 said:

    @HitEmTrue said:

    @BB28403 said:
    Well the driver you actually want to hang back. I think . Irons need forward shaft lean to compress the ball into the turf. Driver is sweeping, 3 woods , 5 woods, any woods are sweeping off the turf. Hybrids are a mix, hence the name hybrid, sweeping and compressing against a bit of turf.
    I'm no instructor though. Just insights I have discovered.

    The ball is never compressed against the turf. Unless you have golf clubs with negative loft.

    Then golf digest has it wrong??!!
    “This is a clear sign that you're compressing the ball, trapping it between the clubface and the turf, which will result in a divot on the forward side of the ball.”
    https://www.golfdigest.com/story/tigertips_gd0703

    Yes, Golf Digest has it wrong. Not the first time either. Now as a feel, it’s a good thought for some when struggling (myself included), but the ball doesn’t actually get “trapped” between the club face and ground.

    Check this out as video evidence - start at 1:00 mark for irons:

  • BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,658 ✭✭

    @hurley999s said:

    @BB28403 said:

    @HitEmTrue said:

    @BB28403 said:
    Well the driver you actually want to hang back. I think . Irons need forward shaft lean to compress the ball into the turf. Driver is sweeping, 3 woods , 5 woods, any woods are sweeping off the turf. Hybrids are a mix, hence the name hybrid, sweeping and compressing against a bit of turf.
    I'm no instructor though. Just insights I have discovered.

    The ball is never compressed against the turf. Unless you have golf clubs with negative loft.

    Then golf digest has it wrong??!!
    “This is a clear sign that you're compressing the ball, trapping it between the clubface and the turf, which will result in a divot on the forward side of the ball.”
    https://www.golfdigest.com/story/tigertips_gd0703

    Yes, Golf Digest has it wrong. Not the first time either. Now as a feel, it’s a good thought for some when struggling (myself included), but the ball doesn’t actually get “trapped” between the club face and ground.

    Check this out as video evidence - start at 1:00 mark for irons:

    Nice try there buddy. All the iron shots are on tees.
    If a ball is sitting on the ground and an iron hits it. Then there is ground interaction. Why do you think a sidehill lie goes more left or more right depending on the way the hill is shaped. The ball rifles off the ground , the ground provides resistance.

  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,215 ✭✭

    Shaft lean is best approached with a holistic mindset. Something as little as left knee behavior can change it dramatically.

  • SNIPERBBBSNIPERBBB Hit Ball Hard SE OhioMembers Posts: 2,208 ✭✭
    edited Apr 20, 2019 3:00pm #15

    @BB28403 said:

    @hurley999s said:

    @BB28403 said:

    @HitEmTrue said:

    @BB28403 said:
    Well the driver you actually want to hang back. I think . Irons need forward shaft lean to compress the ball into the turf. Driver is sweeping, 3 woods , 5 woods, any woods are sweeping off the turf. Hybrids are a mix, hence the name hybrid, sweeping and compressing against a bit of turf.
    I'm no instructor though. Just insights I have discovered.

    The ball is never compressed against the turf. Unless you have golf clubs with negative loft.

    Then golf digest has it wrong??!!
    “This is a clear sign that you're compressing the ball, trapping it between the clubface and the turf, which will result in a divot on the forward side of the ball.”
    https://www.golfdigest.com/story/tigertips_gd0703

    Yes, Golf Digest has it wrong. Not the first time either. Now as a feel, it’s a good thought for some when struggling (myself included), but the ball doesn’t actually get “trapped” between the club face and ground.

    Check this out as video evidence - start at 1:00 mark for irons:

    Nice try there buddy. All the iron shots are on tees.
    If a ball is sitting on the ground and an iron hits it. Then there is ground interaction. Why do you think a sidehill lie goes more left or more right depending on the way the hill is shaped. The ball rifles off the ground , the ground provides resistance.

    Ball goes right or left depending on which slant your on because the loft of the club points that direction. The more lift the more the slope pulls the ball that direction

    2016 M1 9.5 tuned to 7.5
    TM r15 3 wood
    Adams Idea Pro 2h/4h
    Mizuno JPX 900 HM 5-GW
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    Vokey SM7 54* F Grind
    Vokey SM7 58* M Grind
  • BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,658 ✭✭

    Btw you can create shaft lean with you hands and arms. Squeeze your elbows together at address. Keep them together .

  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers Posts: 6,380 ✭✭
    edited Apr 20, 2019 6:34pm #17

    @BB28403 said:
    Nice try there buddy. All the iron shots are on tees.
    If a ball is sitting on the ground and an iron hits it. Then there is ground interaction. Why do you think a sidehill lie goes more left or more right depending on the way the hill is shaped. The ball rifles off the ground , the ground provides resistance.

    Hitting it off a tee proves that the balls goes upward, not downward, when it is hit by the club.

    The ground interaction...the feeling of compression...is the club hitting the ground after impact.

    On a side hill lie, the club face is not pointing at the target. Hold a lofted club in your hand, with it sitting properly soled on the ground. Now lean the club toward you...the face of the club is now pointing to the left of where it was originally. The more lofted the club, the greater difference this will make.

    ( edit ) @SNIPERBBB beat me to it!

  • SNIPERBBBSNIPERBBB Hit Ball Hard SE OhioMembers Posts: 2,208 ✭✭

    @SNIPERBBB said:

    @BB28403 said:

    @hurley999s said:

    @BB28403 said:

    @HitEmTrue said:

    @BB28403 said:
    Well the driver you actually want to hang back. I think . Irons need forward shaft lean to compress the ball into the turf. Driver is sweeping, 3 woods , 5 woods, any woods are sweeping off the turf. Hybrids are a mix, hence the name hybrid, sweeping and compressing against a bit of turf.
    I'm no instructor though. Just insights I have discovered.

    The ball is never compressed against the turf. Unless you have golf clubs with negative loft.

    Then golf digest has it wrong??!!
    “This is a clear sign that you're compressing the ball, trapping it between the clubface and the turf, which will result in a divot on the forward side of the ball.”
    https://www.golfdigest.com/story/tigertips_gd0703

    Yes, Golf Digest has it wrong. Not the first time either. Now as a feel, it’s a good thought for some when struggling (myself included), but the ball doesn’t actually get “trapped” between the club face and ground.

    Check this out as video evidence - start at 1:00 mark for irons:

    Nice try there buddy. All the iron shots are on tees.
    If a ball is sitting on the ground and an iron hits it. Then there is ground interaction. Why do you think a sidehill lie goes more left or more right depending on the way the hill is shaped. The ball rifles off the ground , the ground provides resistance.

    Ball goes right or left depending on which slant your on because the loft of the club points that direction. The more loft the more the slope pulls the ball that direction

    2016 M1 9.5 tuned to 7.5
    TM r15 3 wood
    Adams Idea Pro 2h/4h
    Mizuno JPX 900 HM 5-GW
    Vokey SM7 48* F Grind
    Vokey SM7 54* F Grind
    Vokey SM7 58* M Grind
  • oiler45oiler45 Members Posts: 255 ✭✭

    Not so BB28403 - if a ball is hit below it's centre (not topped or skulled) - the balls initial direction will be up not down.
    A properly struck golf shot with the ball sitting on the ground will NOT interact with the turf - there is NO ground interaction - the ball is gone before the club hits the ground. Sidehill lies have been explained to you as well.

  • BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,658 ✭✭
    edited Apr 20, 2019 11:55pm #20

    @oiler45 said:
    Not so BB28403 - if a ball is hit below it's centre (not topped or skulled) - the balls initial direction will be up not down.
    A properly struck golf shot with the ball sitting on the ground will NOT interact with the turf - there is NO ground interaction - the ball is gone before the club hits the ground. Sidehill lies have been explained to you as well.

    On iron shots Is the ball suspended in air? There is turf interaction. The ball is at rest on the ground. Therefore you have to overcome the resistance of the ground to make the ball become airborne. The ball interacts with the turf it is on.
    Some also say that the ball, when stuck releases some of the clubs energy into the ground the same way your leg does when you swing the club.
    You are ignoring forces that are present when you say there is no turf interaction or compression into the turf.
    The club hits the ball pressing it into the ground and then it squirts out .
    There is edit: just loft and angle of attack at work here. The iron does not scoop the ball off the ground , it hits it into the ground at the same angle the club is traveling, which is why you take a divot after on iron shots.
    Please find a physics professor with a trackman and high speed cameras, maybe he can break down iron shots off of turf for you.
    I’m not saying I’m a expert. Obviously lol, but I do think the ground plays a role in iron shots.

    Post edited by BB28403 on
  • SNIPERBBBSNIPERBBB Hit Ball Hard SE OhioMembers Posts: 2,208 ✭✭

    2016 M1 9.5 tuned to 7.5
    TM r15 3 wood
    Adams Idea Pro 2h/4h
    Mizuno JPX 900 HM 5-GW
    Vokey SM7 48* F Grind
    Vokey SM7 54* F Grind
    Vokey SM7 58* M Grind
  • TexasTurfTexasTurf Members Posts: 49 ✭✭

    @BB28403 said:

    @oiler45 said:
    Not so BB28403 - if a ball is hit below it's centre (not topped or skulled) - the balls initial direction will be up not down.
    A properly struck golf shot with the ball sitting on the ground will NOT interact with the turf - there is NO ground interaction - the ball is gone before the club hits the ground. Sidehill lies have been explained to you as well.

    On iron shots Is the ball suspended in air? There is turf interaction. The ball is at rest on the ground. Therefore you have to overcome the resistance of the ground to make the ball become airborne. The ball interacts with the turf it is on.
    Some also say that the ball, when stuck releases some of the clubs energy into the ground the same way your leg does when you swing the club.
    You are ignoring forces that are present when you say there is no turf interaction or compression into the turf.
    The club hits the ball pressing it into the ground and then it squirts out .
    There is dynamic loft and angle of attack at work here. The iron does not scoop the ball off the ground , it hits it into the ground at the same angle the club is traveling, which is why you take a divot after on iron shots.
    Please find a physics professor with a trackman and high speed cameras, maybe he can break down iron shots off of turf for you.

    Your description above is incorrect. You are correct in saying that it is not scooping, but the club is hitting the bottom half of the ball, and the loft of the club propels it forward and up, not down (even though the clubhead is moving down and into the turf). If the clubface was on the same vertical angle of the shaft (0 degrees loft, it would hit the top half of the ball into the turf, so that's why it feels like that's what is happening with an iron)

  • SNIPERBBBSNIPERBBB Hit Ball Hard SE OhioMembers Posts: 2,208 ✭✭

    2016 M1 9.5 tuned to 7.5
    TM r15 3 wood
    Adams Idea Pro 2h/4h
    Mizuno JPX 900 HM 5-GW
    Vokey SM7 48* F Grind
    Vokey SM7 54* F Grind
    Vokey SM7 58* M Grind
  • hurley999shurley999s Members Posts: 165 ✭✭

    @BB28403 said:

    @hurley999s said:

    @BB28403 said:

    @HitEmTrue said:

    @BB28403 said:
    Well the driver you actually want to hang back. I think . Irons need forward shaft lean to compress the ball into the turf. Driver is sweeping, 3 woods , 5 woods, any woods are sweeping off the turf. Hybrids are a mix, hence the name hybrid, sweeping and compressing against a bit of turf.
    I'm no instructor though. Just insights I have discovered.

    The ball is never compressed against the turf. Unless you have golf clubs with negative loft.

    Then golf digest has it wrong??!!
    “This is a clear sign that you're compressing the ball, trapping it between the clubface and the turf, which will result in a divot on the forward side of the ball.”
    https://www.golfdigest.com/story/tigertips_gd0703

    Yes, Golf Digest has it wrong. Not the first time either. Now as a feel, it’s a good thought for some when struggling (myself included), but the ball doesn’t actually get “trapped” between the club face and ground.

    Check this out as video evidence - start at 1:00 mark for irons:

    Nice try there buddy. All the iron shots are on tees.
    If a ball is sitting on the ground and an iron hits it. Then there is ground interaction. Why do you think a sidehill lie goes more left or more right depending on the way the hill is shaped. The ball rifles off the ground , the ground provides resistance.

    Ok “buddy” smh...nice try trolling here. Don’t know why you’d pick something as obvious as this to debate, but carry on. Keep on pinching that ball between the club and turf. You’re a winner, pal!

  • jut111jut111 Members Posts: 1,625 ✭✭

    @hurley999s said:

    @BB28403 said:

    @hurley999s said:

    @BB28403 said:

    @HitEmTrue said:

    @BB28403 said:
    Well the driver you actually want to hang back. I think . Irons need forward shaft lean to compress the ball into the turf. Driver is sweeping, 3 woods , 5 woods, any woods are sweeping off the turf. Hybrids are a mix, hence the name hybrid, sweeping and compressing against a bit of turf.
    I'm no instructor though. Just insights I have discovered.

    The ball is never compressed against the turf. Unless you have golf clubs with negative loft.

    Then golf digest has it wrong??!!
    “This is a clear sign that you're compressing the ball, trapping it between the clubface and the turf, which will result in a divot on the forward side of the ball.”
    https://www.golfdigest.com/story/tigertips_gd0703

    Yes, Golf Digest has it wrong. Not the first time either. Now as a feel, it’s a good thought for some when struggling (myself included), but the ball doesn’t actually get “trapped” between the club face and ground.

    Check this out as video evidence - start at 1:00 mark for irons:

    Nice try there buddy. All the iron shots are on tees.
    If a ball is sitting on the ground and an iron hits it. Then there is ground interaction. Why do you think a sidehill lie goes more left or more right depending on the way the hill is shaped. The ball rifles off the ground , the ground provides resistance.

    Ok “buddy” smh...nice try trolling here. Don’t know why you’d pick something as obvious as this to debate, but carry on. Keep on pinching that ball between the club and turf. You’re a winner, pal!

    It’s his sad form of entertainment. Don’t feed it.

  • Railroading13Railroading13 NebraskaMembers Posts: 619 ✭✭

    I think it depends on the player and their feels, for me... my feel to achieve shaft lean is my pivot. I don't think you can achieve proper shaft lean by yanking or pulling the handle forward (getting steep), then again, I'm sure for some players that feel will produce the desired result.

    WITB

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  • Tanner25Tanner25 Members Posts: 6,218 ✭✭

    After 3 successful rounds of swinging the shaft forward, it came crumbling down yesterday with very inconsistent hits. Will write it off to having a bad day.

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