P790 Taylormade - not bending

I recently had a set of p790s checked and adjusted for loft and lies, they were all over the place, all have now been corrected apart from the PW, when the guy was making more upright he found it hard to move, but finally got it to near 1 up (it started 1 flat) I played a day later and noticed the wedge seemed flatter than the rest, I went back to club builder, who confirmed it has sprung back, he tried again to get it 1 up, but when he put the digital measure on it, you could see the lie changing back before your eyes. So now I’m stuck with a wedge at standard and all others at 1 up, and although only 1 degree it’s no coincidence my wedge flies right

So, the question...has anyone else had a problem moving the ‘forged’ p790s?

I can’t get it to move so now I’ve either got to somehow get a single wedge from a set, or face getting say a vokey 46 instead which will mean a big change from the 9iron...note I like my PW to be more of a 10 iron rather then a specialist wedge, if that makes sense?

Ok, on my second visit, I was there as the digital spirit level was going from 62.3..1...0 then to 61.4, what would cause this?

I also tried to move the club up using the bending bar as he wanted me to see what it was like, it just didn’t want to budge, and because of this we were both worried about any problems if trying to move any further.

> @"Re*Ax" said:

> Ok, on my second visit, I was there as the digital spirit level was going from 62.3..1...0 then to 61.4, what would cause this?

>

> I also tried to move the club up using the bending bar as he wanted me to see what it was like, it just didn’t want to budge, and because of this we were both worried about any problems if trying to move any further.

Explain what tools that was used here.

Are we talking a bending machine with a digital unit attached, or are we talking 2 separate tools, 1 bending machine and 1 digital loft and lie gauge?

For a forged club, the 790's are very hard to move. Gotta put some muscle into that bar just to get 1°.

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @"Re*Ax" said:

> > Ok, on my second visit, I was there as the digital spirit level was going from 62.3..1...0 then to 61.4, what would cause this?

> >

> > I also tried to move the club up using the bending bar as he wanted me to see what it was like, it just didn’t want to budge, and because of this we were both worried about any problems if trying to move any further.

>

> Explain what tools that was used here.

> Are we talking a bending machine with a digital unit attached, or are we talking 2 separate tools, 1 bending machine and 1 digital loft and lie gauge?

Bending machine and heavy duty bar, digital lie gauge

> @"Re*Ax" said:

> > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > @"Re*Ax" said:

> > > Ok, on my second visit, I was there as the digital spirit level was going from 62.3..1...0 then to 61.4, what would cause this?

> > >

> > > I also tried to move the club up using the bending bar as he wanted me to see what it was like, it just didn’t want to budge, and because of this we were both worried about any problems if trying to move any further.

> >

> > Explain what tools that was used here.

> > Are we talking a bending machine with a digital unit attached, or are we talking 2 separate tools, 1 bending machine and 1 digital loft and lie gauge?

>

> Bending machine and heavy duty bar, digital lie gauge

So when the club was moved from the bending machine, and clamped in the loft and lie gauge it was upright, but then it started to move against flat in front of your eyes? or are you referring to what the bending machine say after bending vs the separate loft and lie gauge?

We should always, no matter head get a bending bar that fits the hosel as good as possible, (thats why i had 3 different) and place it as low we can get on the hosel. Bending should be done with short pumping movements, NOT constant pressure, that raise the risk of braking the hosel. I never broke a club head during bending, but saw a few PING irons that was silly hard to move and i gave up on them after about 1* since i could predict breakage if i tried harder, but with the right Technic and bending bar, i never had a forged head that i could not bend to the wanted specs, and i never saw a head that moved back after bending, that cant happen if it actually was bended in the first place..

A club thats actually is bended gets whats called a "plastic deformation" and thats a permanent status no matter material until we bend it again.

"Plastic deformation is the permanent distortion that occurs when a material is subjected to tensile, compressive, bending, or torsion stresses that exceed its yield strength and cause it to elongate, compress, buckle, bend, or twist. From: Materials Enabled Designs, 2009"

> @"Re*Ax" said:

> I recently had a set of p790s checked and adjusted for loft and lies, they were all over the place, all have now been corrected apart from the PW, when the guy was making more upright he found it hard to move, but finally got it to near 1 up (it started 1 flat) I played a day later and noticed the wedge seemed flatter than the rest, I went back to club builder, who confirmed it has sprung back, he tried again to get it 1 up, but when he put the digital measure on it, you could see the lie changing back before your eyes. So now I’m stuck with a wedge at standard and all others at 1 up, and although only 1 degree it’s no coincidence my wedge flies right

>

> So, the question...has anyone else had a problem moving the ‘forged’ p790s?

> I can’t get it to move so now I’ve either got to somehow get a single wedge from a set, or face getting say a vokey 46 instead which will mean a big change from the 9iron...note I like my PW to be more of a 10 iron rather then a specialist wedge, if that makes sense?

>

>

>

It's just the P790 heads. Some bend like butter, others need the strength of 10 men moving it to change it 0.25*. My boss literally hung off the bending bar and didn't move it. It seems like the 9 irons and the PW are the tough bends. I have no problem with the long and mid irons but the short irons are a PITA to move.

What Howard said. ^^^

Unless this is a magic PW and the club builder's name is Fox Mulder.

> @trhode said:

> For a forged club, the 790's are very hard to move. Gotta put some muscle into that bar just to get 1°.

The heads are NOT forged but are cast from 8620, so should bend just like a cast 8620 vokey. I had some P790 that I bent myself with a bending machine. All bent w/o issue.

> @BirdieBob said:

> > @trhode said:

> > For a forged club, the 790's are very hard to move. Gotta put some muscle into that bar just to get 1°.

>

> The heads are NOT forged but are cast from 8620, so should bend just like a cast 8620 vokey. I had some P790 that I bent myself with a bending machine. All bent w/o issue.

There always is a possibility that the cast is flawed (poor grain, voids, metal content) and it can be harder to bend than the rest of the irons. Sometimes you just have to know when to stop and not risk breaking the club. Wedges are usually the easiest to bend, but usually isn't the same as always.

Send it back to Taylormade and let them adjust it. If they can’t, have them replace it.

> @Socrates said:

> > @BirdieBob said:

> > > @trhode said:

> > > For a forged club, the 790's are very hard to move. Gotta put some muscle into that bar just to get 1°.

> >

> > The heads are NOT forged but are cast from 8620, so should bend just like a cast 8620 vokey. I had some P790 that I bent myself with a bending machine. All bent w/o issue.

>

> There always is a possibility that the cast is flawed (poor grain, voids, metal content) and it can be harder to bend than the rest of the irons. Sometimes you just have to know when to stop and not risk breaking the club. Wedges are usually the easiest to bend, but usually isn't the same as always.

Im NOT a club head designer, but this issue seem to be on the shortest clubs in the set when we find it, so to me, i suspect it to be a design "flaw "on the part between the hosel and head. If we look on PING designs, it seems like they try to avoid a design where the hosel becomes "supported" by the line from the hosel to the loft plane. I cant say i know this is why, but i suspect it is. We should see the same for wedges, but they most often has a longer hosel than irons so we dont run into that on wedges.

The way PING design their heads, the "effective hosel length" becomes "longer", even if its the same total, so combined with the "tunnel" on the rear, they become bendable even if the metal is silly hard. Ping to the left, P790 to the right, and its the line on top i think becomes the issue on those heads we find hard to adjust, so maybe the design could have something to do with this.

> @BirdieBob said:

> > @trhode said:

> > For a forged club, the 790's are very hard to move. Gotta put some muscle into that bar just to get 1°.

>

> The heads are NOT forged but are cast from 8620, so should bend just like a cast 8620 vokey. I had some P790 that I bent myself with a bending machine. All bent w/o issue.

Says forged right on the hosel. All the descriptions on the website say forged.

Take a paperclip and bend the long prong 90º. Now release it. It will spring back somewhat. Of course not to the original position but less the 90º. Club heads are no different when bending. To get 2º you may have to go to 3º while bending to get to the 2º desired.

> @trhode said:

> > @BirdieBob said:

> > > @trhode said:

> > > For a forged club, the 790's are very hard to move. Gotta put some muscle into that bar just to get 1°.

> >

> > The heads are NOT forged but are cast from 8620, so should bend just like a cast 8620 vokey. I had some P790 that I bent myself with a bending machine. All bent w/o issue.

>

> Says forged right on the hosel. All the descriptions on the website say forged.

It doesn't mean it is fully forged. It is a forged face on a cast body. Some companies go the other way around and forge the body and make the face cast. Forged faces and cast bodies are P790, Ping i500, and the Cobra Forged Tec. Forged bodies and cast faces are the Srixon 585, Callaway Apex, Callaway Epic Forged (upcoming), Miura Passing Point 9005, and I think the Bridgestone Tour B JGR H2.

> @denkea said:

> Take a paperclip and bend the long prong 90º. Now release it. It will spring back somewhat. Of course not to the original position but less the 90º. Club heads are no different when bending. To get 2º you may have to go to 3º while bending to get to the 2º desired.

You are confusing the term elasticity with bending. Almost everything has elasticity and will flex and return to a original or near original position. When bend a hosel, it to has elasticity and will flex during the bending process and you apply pressure past the point of its elasticity limits to effect a permanent new position. A lot of people will "bend" a club but never actually do anything since they never did anything other than flex the hosel a little. They think they have bent the hosel, but all they did was flex it a little. Experience and skill tell you how much pressure you need to use to go past the point of the elasticity of the hosel and actually bend it. But once you bend a hosel to a certain position, it stays there. There is no rebound.

I have a set of P790's and the lofts and some of the lies are all over the place. I had some crazy gaping issues. I have a Mitchell loft and lie machine and you clamp, measure bend. Then remove and reclamp and measure. Measuring after bending and not removing the head will give you flawed measurements. My PW was 2* upright and I wanted it flat. I bent it 3* using the bounce/pump/short movements. I also went to 4* gaps from my GW up through the set and bent all them as well without a problem.

> @denkea said:

> Take a paperclip and bend the long prong 90º. Now release it. It will spring back somewhat. Of course not to the original position but less the 90º. Club heads are no different when bending. To get 2º you may have to go to 3º while bending to get to the 2º desired.

Even a springs for a truck has its limitations, at some point its over and beyond tensile strength and and we have a permanent plastic deformation, its the same for club heads even if the hosel was not designed to "flex" like a spring, but it does until we pass the needed point where plastic deformation occurs.

The p790 longer irons with the slots in the soles bend much easier almost as easy as forged blades. The short irons take some considerable effort. These are not fully forged heads they are cast heads and frames with forged faces. I’ve bent 4 or 5 sets.

So I started the thread, to get some insights from others for them either to go "never had a problem with bending P790s" or "yeah one of mine was a little off"

Yet, what I seemed to have got is people telling me what I saw wasn't correct (I've bent my own clubs previously for 15 years)

That the club builder doesn't know what equipment to use, or how to bend (he's a specialist club builder, all his does is build and fix clubs, oh and it was 2 different adjustable bending bars)

Plus some physics lessons (I did Physics and Chemistry at College)

So, the reality of my situation is that the Wedge, after checking with the guy, was originally 2 flat, he got it up to about 0.5 up when I walked out the first time. All the other irons have been adjusted without problem (again that's the UDI 2, then 4-9 iron).

When I returned 2 weeks later, it was 0.5 flat....this of course could have just changed the way all irons change through play.......

When we tried to change it a second time, he measured when in the machine, using a digital "spirit level" type tool, attempted to bend, he immediately put the tool on the shaft and the numbers went 62.4, .3, .2,.1 (or whatever the numbers were I forget now)

So it would seem that the ~3 degrees is about as much as we can get out of this wedge head. I guess the problem caused by TM in the first place having the spec so off with the rest of the irons. (I bought them at 1 deg flat, with the knowledge I can bend up to my spec)

> @magnus7319 said:

> The p790 longer irons with the slots in the soles bend much easier almost as easy as forged blades. The short irons take some considerable effort. These are not fully forged heads they are cast heads and frames with forged faces. I’ve bent 4 or 5 sets.

Certainly seemed this way, thanks for confirming your direct experience

> @chiva said:

> Send it back to Taylormade and let them adjust it. If they can’t, have them replace it.

I've emailed them (UK) waiting to hear back, issue will likely be the fact I bought them 2nd hand - fingers crossed though. Absolutely love these irons, seems many others do too, never had such a flight before

> @"Re*Ax" said:

> So I started the thread, to get some insights from others for them either to go "never had a problem with bending P790s" or "yeah one of mine was a little off"

> Yet, what I seemed to have got is people telling me what I saw wasn't correct (I've bent my own clubs previously for 15 years)

> That the club builder doesn't know what equipment to use, or how to bend (he's a specialist club builder, all his does is build and fix clubs, oh and it was 2 different adjustable bending bars)

> Plus some physics lessons (I did Physics and Chemistry at College)

>

> So, the reality of my situation is that the Wedge, after checking with the guy, was originally 2 flat, he got it up to about 0.5 up when I walked out the first time. All the other irons have been adjusted without problem (again that's the UDI 2, then 4-9 iron).

> When I returned 2 weeks later, it was 0.5 flat....this of course could have just changed the way all irons change through play.......

>

> When we tried to change it a second time, he measured when in the machine, using a digital "spirit level" type tool, attempted to bend, he immediately put the tool on the shaft and the numbers went 62.4, .3, .2,.1 (or whatever the numbers were I forget now)

> So it would seem that the ~3 degrees is about as much as we can get out of this wedge head. I guess the problem caused by TM in the first place having the spec so off with the rest of the irons. (I bought them at 1 deg flat, with the knowledge I can bend up to my spec)

Once you bend metal, it stays bent. Been doing it for nearly 30 years and NEVER have I seen a hosel magically unbend after it has been adjusted. Just doesn't happen. Unless you are using something similar to this to measure before and after, you really don't know.

> @Socrates said:

> > @"Re*Ax" said:

> > So I started the thread, to get some insights from others for them either to go "never had a problem with bending P790s" or "yeah one of mine was a little off"

> > Yet, what I seemed to have got is people telling me what I saw wasn't correct (I've bent my own clubs previously for 15 years)

> > That the club builder doesn't know what equipment to use, or how to bend (he's a specialist club builder, all his does is build and fix clubs, oh and it was 2 different adjustable bending bars)

> > Plus some physics lessons (I did Physics and Chemistry at College)

> >

> > So, the reality of my situation is that the Wedge, after checking with the guy, was originally 2 flat, he got it up to about 0.5 up when I walked out the first time. All the other irons have been adjusted without problem (again that's the UDI 2, then 4-9 iron).

> > When I returned 2 weeks later, it was 0.5 flat....this of course could have just changed the way all irons change through play.......

> >

> > When we tried to change it a second time, he measured when in the machine, using a digital "spirit level" type tool, attempted to bend, he immediately put the tool on the shaft and the numbers went 62.4, .3, .2,.1 (or whatever the numbers were I forget now)

> > So it would seem that the ~3 degrees is about as much as we can get out of this wedge head. I guess the problem caused by TM in the first place having the spec so off with the rest of the irons. (I bought them at 1 deg flat, with the knowledge I can bend up to my spec)

>

> Once you bend metal, it stays bent. Been doing it for nearly 30 years and NEVER have I seen a hosel magically unbend after it has been adjusted. Just doesn't happen. Unless you are using something similar to this to measure before and after, you really don't know.

>

The myth about club heads that moves back is about the first that was debunked when i took my classes at Mitchell Golf Equipment institute, the same company who makes the bending machines known worldwide. It does NOT happen, the club head was NOT bended over the limits needed for a change, its ALWAYS operator errors during measurement when that idea comes up.

Club heads that might be very hard to bend is not news, but when they are bended, they stay there.

If you have a Cleveland dealer nearby with the motor operated Mitchell bending machine, let them give it a try, or return it to the OEM, they should have a service department who is able to handle this.

> @driveandputtmachine said:

> I have a set of P790's and the lofts and some of the lies are all over the place. I had some crazy gaping issues. I have a Mitchell loft and lie machine and you clamp, measure bend. **Then remove and reclamp and measure. Measuring after bending and not removing the head will give you flawed measurements.** My PW was 2* upright and I wanted it flat. I bent it 3* using the bounce/pump/short movements. I also went to 4* gaps from my GW up through the set and bent all them as well without a problem.

Correct, after bending, loosen the clamp, then reclamping and remeasure is very important in my opinion.

In case anyone is getting used sets and bending to their specs, be cautious.  I just got a mixed set with 4, 5, and 6 in p790 (original version). The 4 and 5 were tough to move but did eventually bend 2 degrees.  The 6 iron would not budge even half a degree.  I finally used a longer bar and ended up snapping the hosel as soon as it started to move.  So bought another used 6 iron to replace it and that one bent almost as easy as the 760's.  Bent it two degree with almost no effort.  Must be quite bit of variability or they changed manufacturing techniques at some point.  Just an FYI. 

14 minutes ago, marrigo said:

In case anyone is getting used sets and bending to their specs, be cautious.  I just got a mixed set with 4, 5, and 6 in p790 (original version). The 4 and 5 were tough to move but did eventually bend 2 degrees.  The 6 iron would not budge even half a degree.  I finally used a longer bar and ended up snapping the hosel as soon as it started to move.  So bought another used 6 iron to replace it and that one bent almost as easy as the 760's.  Bent it two degree with almost no effort.  Must be quite bit of variability or they changed manufacturing techniques at some point.  Just an FYI. 

Where you adjusting loft or lie?

I was adjusting lie angle two degrees upright from standard.