right shoulder lower explanation w/ diagrams

ok...so I've had a bunch of folks asking for clarity on some of my posts lately about getting your right shoulder down and then extending the right arm downrange, so I took the time and made some diagrams in MS paint that should help explain.

it should be noted also that I am not advocating "swinging left", "chasing the target line" or "out to right field" when I talk about "extending the right arm downrange", as I think those are all terrible ideas of manipulating the club with your hands. you simply lower your right shoulder toward the target line/ball and then extend everything downrange. the club in a DTL view will exit "low and left" because it is in front of you and your body is unwinding.......without you consciously trying to make it do so

Very helpful sblack, thanks for taking the time to do this.

p.s. like how you put the grooves on the clubface, that is some picasso action right there!

lol....just glad that it was helpful in explaining things

lol the grooves!

do you find that more important than clearing the left knee/left hip and opening up the left shouder?

I could do the hip clearing and still have a high right shoulder....however, by focusing on lowering the right shoulder toward the ball as my first conscious move down, the left side clears and you rotate everything open automatically

Sbalck5- first off, the illustrations are glorious. They're simple, informative, while being lighthearted.

I do have one specific question. Are you saying its better to start off with you right shoulder pre-set into the lower position? What you describe in section 4 sounds like "pulling the handle", which I suffer from, and I am thinking that lowering my right should a little more at address might help.

Very awesome sblack5! Thank you

no pulling the handle.....setup is everything comfortable. it is far more important to setup with your spine perpendicular to the shaft than to worry about your shoulder in my opinion. get your spine to shaft angle correct and your shoulder should be fine at setup when you grip the club. maybe you're pulling the handle in the downswing because you aren't getting your left side behind the ball early enough in your backswing.

the above diagrams are simply meant to help illustrate a concept

Sounds like covering the ball with right shoulder or hitting the ball with your right ahoulder. Two swing thoughts that are my favorites

^^^^ pretty much.

Love the illustrations lol. Good stuff my man

[quote name='sblack5' timestamp='1374426303' post='7506006']
I could do the hip clearing and still have a high right shoulder....however, by focusing on lowering the right shoulder toward the ball as my first conscious move down, the left side clears and you rotate everything open automatically
[/quote]

That's one swing thought I was asked to try during one of my lessons and I have a hard time putting that thought to practice. My upper body either shifts laterally towards the target while my right shoulder works down, or I go the opposite direction and my hip spins out (shoulder down automatically turns my hip but it doesn't establish the pivot point on the left side first).

Did you run into either of those issues?

I recent signed up for an online lesson by iTeach and this is exactly what he told me. Still working on it but I feel like I'm making better contact and hitting solid shots

Cheers for this sblack5.

I'm constantly coming in to out and suffering from toe hits/hooks.

Would this be beneficial for someone like me? Need to give this a shot at the range.

Obviously, this technique is for "Flat Belly's" only.......


Just kidding. Perfect and succinct explanation on the down and through....

[quote name='sblack5' timestamp='1374426303' post='7506006']
I could do the hip clearing and still have a high right shoulder....however, by focusing on lowering the right shoulder toward the ball as my first conscious move down, the left side clears and you rotate everything open automatically
[/quote]

I have been finding this too, that your body automatically makes the space when thinking about getting the shoulder down and the sequencing is still right.

One thought I find helps in addition to the shoulder move is to try and retain or even close the gap between the right arm and club (could probably do with a diagram to explain that too). This ensures you don't throw away the leverage and shallows the shaft.

Sometimes the shoulder thought alone is not enough, and I say that as my friend does a great job of getting the shoulder down and out, but does an even better job of getting up on his toes to make more room to dump the leverage.

[quote name='grizztrax' timestamp='1374422868' post='7505380']
p.s. like how you put the grooves on the clubface, that is some picasso action right there!
[/quote]

Haha! It looks like a giant toothbrush!

you also have to maintain your tilt away from the target as that shoulder goes down. Sometimes if I lose that and drive the shoulder down plane I wind up hitting OTT fades and pushes, due to the club going left too soon without proper tilt to let the club come from the inside while the shoulder goes down

[quote name='TheBigGun' timestamp='1374441606' post='7507678']
[quote name='sblack5' timestamp='1374426303' post='7506006']
I could do the hip clearing and still have a high right shoulder....however, by focusing on lowering the right shoulder toward the ball as my first conscious move down, the left side clears and you rotate everything open automatically
[/quote]

I have been finding this too, that your body automatically makes the space when thinking about getting the shoulder down and the sequencing is still right.

One thought I find helps in addition to the shoulder move is to try and retain or even close the gap between the right arm and club (could probably do with a diagram to explain that too). This ensures you don't throw away the leverage and shallows the shaft.

Sometimes the shoulder thought alone is not enough, and I say that as my friend does a great job of getting the shoulder down and out, but does an even better job of getting up on his toes to make more room to dump the leverage.
[/quote]

your second paragraph is a "given" when thinking about the word "then" in the following phrase....... lower the right shoulder down and out towards the ball and "THEN" extend downrange.


also....maintaining tilt is of course paramount.....if you setup with your spine perpendicular to the shaft and your left shoulder in line with your left hip then you should be all set.

a key for me going back is to get my left shoulder behind the ball by the time my left arm is chest high. it helps with the whole not moving your head much during the swing bit

@ joeunc.....a good thought that has helped me is that spine tilt at address becomes side bend and secondary tilt through impact, and the better you get at getting that right shoulder down TOWARD the ball on the beginning of the downswing the more secondary tilt WITH your hands forward at impact you'll have.

referring to the diagrams....the less vertical space you have the more forward your hands have to be at impact to make contact and not hit it fat

[quote name='sblack5' timestamp='1374427521' post='7506198']
no pulling the handle.....setup is everything comfortable. it is far more important to setup with your spine perpendicular to the shaft than to worry about your shoulder in my opinion. get your spine to shaft angle correct and your shoulder should be fine at setup when you grip the club. maybe you're pulling the handle in the downswing because you aren't getting your left side behind the ball early enough in your backswing.

the above diagrams are simply meant to help illustrate a concept
[/quote]

Thanks for the clarification. I'll try dropping the right shoulder towards the ball on the downswing and report back. I pull the handle from the top of the backswing to create fugazi lag and then I EE thought the ball.

For further clarification, when you say the spine should be 'perpendicular' to the shaft, 90* angle, are you speaking from a 'down the line' view or 'face on' view?

[quote name='sblack5' timestamp='1374442706' post='7507824']
@ joeunc.....a good thought that has helped me is that spine tilt at address becomes side bend and secondary tilt through impact, and the better you get at getting that right shoulder down TOWARD the ball on the beginning of the downswing the more secondary tilt WITH your hands forward at impact you'll have.

referring to the diagrams....the less vertical space you have the more forward your hands have to be at impact to make contact and not hit it fat
[/quote]

thanks I agree with all that, I stayed back yesterday and had that 2ndary tilt and carded a 36 on the front, the adult beverages however kicked in on the back and I shot 42, the right shoulder down is really helping me as I do my online work with Dan.

when I say perpendicular to the shaft at setup I mean in a DTL view

[quote name='cac022' timestamp='1374438946' post='7507334']
Cheers for this sblack5.

I'm constantly coming in to out and suffering from toe hits/hooks.
[/quote]

yep....I promise your right shoulder is high and your extending into the ground to make contact and it is forcing you to flip....diag 3. by understanding the proper sequencing like we are discussing here then it will help to neutralize your path because your hands will be in front of your rotating chest
Would this be beneficial for someone like me? Need to give this a shot at the range.

[quote name='sblack5' timestamp='1374422154' post='7505266']
it should be noted also that I am not advocating "swinging left", "chasing the target line" or "out to right field" when I talk about "extending the right arm downrange", as I think those are all terrible ideas of manipulating the club with your hands. you simply lower your right shoulder toward the target line/ball and then extend everything downrange. the club in a DTL view will exit "low and left" because it is in front of you and your body is unwinding.......without you consciously trying to make it do so
[/quote]

Thank you very much for this description. I appreciate the time and effort to run into it. I do have one question though.while I understand what you're describing in this picture here, my difficulty in comprehending the direction of the right shoulder, has more to do with it in three-dimensional space. what would be extremely helpful for me would be a diagram from a view point above the golfer looking down and this way from the top of the backswing with the shoulders turns 90 degrees, I would be able to better see the three-dimensional direction that the shoulder moves from that top of the backswing position.

Mitch.....take the point of your collar bone where it inserts into your right deltoid and take it to the ball. your ball position should be under your left armpit with your left shoulder and your outside left hip being inline in a face on viewpoint

[quote name='mitchdoc' timestamp='1374445975' post='7508222']
[quote name='sblack5' timestamp='1374422154' post='7505266']
it should be noted also that I am not advocating "swinging left", "chasing the target line" or "out to right field" when I talk about "extending the right arm downrange", as I think those are all terrible ideas of manipulating the club with your hands. you simply lower your right shoulder toward the target line/ball and then extend everything downrange. the club in a DTL view will exit "low and left" because it is in front of you and your body is unwinding.......without you consciously trying to make it do so
[/quote]

Thank you very much for this description. I appreciate the time and effort to run into it. I do have one question though.while I understand what you're describing in this picture here, my difficulty in comprehending the direction of the right shoulder, has more to do with it in three-dimensional space. what would be extremely helpful for me would be a diagram from a view point above the golfer looking down and this way from the top of the backswing with the shoulders turns 90 degrees, I would be able to better see the three-dimensional direction that the shoulder moves from that top of the backswing position.
[/quote]

will see what I can do when I get home tonite as far as an above the golfer diagram

After I got back from seeing Dan in March I have been trying to find a way get the hands and shoulder down in sync. This week I came up with this ghetto thing. I took an old 4 iron and a cut off driveway marker. So what I do is make a backswing have one end of the marker press on my right deltoid. The butt off the club pointing at the ball line (on plane). So in a mirror in the dtl postition the club shaft would bisect my right should with the end of the marker still pressed against the shoulder as well. Now I just come back to the ball in one piece not letting the marker lose contact with the shoulder. I monitor the butt of the club and then the other side of the marker to trace the ball line (plane). Done correctly the pointed side of the marker will appear to come from the inside then square and then exit inside left for a right hander. I have not hit balls with this. Atm I just use it for a feel. I'm not a teacher so it may or may not be good in the long run but it was jat on how to feel the right shoulder and the club down in sync. Please no pm's...this is really all I have to offer. I hope I have explained it clearly enough.[attachment=1794416:20130721_184958-1.jpg]