side saddle putters - what putter are you using?

[Rohlio]

> @ncp10 said:

> Bear with me folks I've got newbie questions!

>

> I've had trouble w/ the yips w/ any length of putt, right-handed, off and usually on for maybe 12-15y now. I switched to left-handed maybe 10y ago and putt OK and w/o yipping, but not great except on infrequent occasion, and that I attribute in part to having a worse time seeing the line, whereas right-handed it's easy to see I have the putter on the line I intend to hit it. I decided to look again at other ways of putting, mental changes to reduce yipping outcomes, etc. I took my old Ping Eye 2 putter with its fairly long shaft to the practice green and tried side-saddle putting for the first time. I did OK considering it was a first try, attempting to mimic what I've seen on videos from JuanPutting and GP Putter. The developer of the GP Putter certainly made it clear lag putting wasn't his strong suit and that his work around for this is to practice 10' on down putts mostly. Presumably it's real hard to get distance control out of the gate with this face-on putting. **How good does one get with distance control over time?** You can leave yourself a raft of longer putts for example on long breaking downhill putts if you have marginal distance control. Also, I think JuanPutt guy does his stroke while looking at the hole versus the down at the ball/stroke. **What's worked well for you?

> **

> **If lag putting is particularly difficult to develop touch for, if it is, why not have a putter that you can also putt w/ a traditional putting stroke? ** Get out there to 45' and you simply do your normal stroke. Get 10' and in or what have you, then revert to side-saddle. **What model putters can do this well?** I bought a Seemore 2-way putter about 7y ago and putt both left and right handed with it, which is great, especially when I'm not in a yipping mental space. I will putt right breaking putts left-handed, and left breaking putts right handed.

 

Lag distance control was the last bit that came around for me when I switched... But it almost didn't matter because I made more 6' putts side saddle than I made 2' putts conventional.

 

I look at the a spot in front of the ball during the stroke.

[ScratchyDawg]

> @ncp10 said:

> Bear with me folks I've got newbie questions!

>

> I've had trouble w/ the yips w/ any length of putt, right-handed, off and usually on for maybe 12-15y now. I switched to left-handed maybe 10y ago and putt OK and w/o yipping, but not great except on infrequent occasion, and that I attribute in part to having a worse time seeing the line, whereas right-handed it's easy to see I have the putter on the line I intend to hit it. I decided to look again at other ways of putting, mental changes to reduce yipping outcomes, etc. I took my old Ping Eye 2 putter with its fairly long shaft to the practice green and tried side-saddle putting for the first time. I did OK considering it was a first try, attempting to mimic what I've seen on videos from JuanPutting and GP Putter. The developer of the GP Putter certainly made it clear lag putting wasn't his strong suit and that his work around for this is to practice 10' on down putts mostly. Presumably it's real hard to get distance control out of the gate with this face-on putting. **How good does one get with distance control over time?** You can leave yourself a raft of longer putts for example on long breaking downhill putts if you have marginal distance control. Also, I think JuanPutt guy does his stroke while looking at the hole versus the down at the ball/stroke. **What's worked well for you?

> **

> **If lag putting is particularly difficult to develop touch for, if it is, why not have a putter that you can also putt w/ a traditional putting stroke? ** Get out there to 45' and you simply do your normal stroke. Get 10' and in or what have you, then revert to side-saddle. **What model putters can do this well?** I bought a Seemore 2-way putter about 7y ago and putt both left and right handed with it, which is great, especially when I'm not in a yipping mental space. I will putt right breaking putts left-handed, and left breaking putts right handed.

 

I use the f22 with the a**kicker shaft. It's only 41", so I can still use it in the "traditional" setup when I need to (I'm 6ft tall). I just choke down and use a traditional grip. I love that it's versatile like that. I really struggled with longer putts at first because it was difficult to make solid contact, but I have gotten better. However, I feel like there is a threshold where I just don't feel comfortable with putting face on, so I revert to the traditional setup for lag putts. I still practice face-on for long putts, but it takes a lot of getting used to.

[BigEx44]

> @ncp10 said:

> Well there are a few comments to that effect here, plus corroborated by the GP Putter dev. What is the thinking on having a putter with the shaft inserting to the head in the middle of its face, versus out on the side? Is this issue exacerbated by SS putting orientation? Theoretically it sounds like it might help reduce face rotation as it would w/ a traditional putting stroke. I have a Seemore 2-way putter made that way. I don't want to purchase a putter to experiment w/ SS putting I have to think you ought to get in the ball park w/ a conventional putter provided you can make the ergonomics work, and if I'm encouraged I might pick up a putter made for SS putting.

I lag better with sidesaddle than I ever did with my traditional stroke. Not even close.

And I've watched all of the GP Putter video's (numerous times). No where does he EVER say lagging is harder with SS.

See the video below:

1) At the 1:10 mark he talks about how he loves all the "tap ins" he gets from 25 feet with his sidesaddle putter.

 

2) At the 2:40 mark, from 60 feet, he talks about how his left/right misses are better with SS. So he can concentrate only on speed. He says all this while lagging 60 footers to tap in distance. He does say most putts on the course are 6 foot or in, so that's what golfers should practice - but that has nothing to do with any SS lag difficulties. He also says its more more productive to practice 6 footers because if you can become automatic from there is just gives you a bigger target circle for your lags - making them even easier. Again, that's a general putting statement (traditional putting guru's make the same comment) and has nothing to do with any SS lag diffficulties.

 

 

[bluedot]

> @ncp10 said:

> > @bluedot said:

> > But it's a better way to putt; it just is.

>

> For you it is. The best players and of those the very best putters worldwide to play the game don't putt face-on. Occam's Razor suggests that very likely is because it has stood the test of a very long time, and works exceedingly well for those good at it. **** look at the likes of the old pros and their wristy styles and could putt lights out--they were great players and putters with serious talent. Moderns pros are not isolated from this information about face-on putting, nor are they afraid of what others' will think if they adopt it. It may have merit if one is yip-prone, or have other idiosyncrasies with regard to what style might work best for them and their particular neurophysiology. I'm intrigued for sure, but not enough to go buy equipment quite yet.

>

> I take it all back! Not really, though it is surprising it hasn't caught on to any serious degree. I read this article and it was intriguing enough to give it a serious try: https://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/sidesaddle-putting-why-sam-sneads-method-might-be-post-anchoing-future-putting

 

Several thoughts on this: (And I'm glad you're giving it a try!)

 

1. First of all, it sort of HAS caught on! Anybody that is trying to find a way to putt more one-handed than with two hands is on that trail; I really believe that. So the long putter, split hands, the Claw, even left hand low, are along the same general lines to one degree or another. Obviously, the other key piece is facing the hole; that has NOT caught on, and it might never. There are a lot of reasons for this; no equipment to experiment with, the stigma of being "different", the adjustment period, and so on. But the chances of seeing the masses putting face-on seem remote to me.

 

2. When I said that it's just a better way to putt, I meant that; I'll get back to the pros in a minute. But I really, REALLY believe that if you started two people from scratch, one face-on and one conventional, with everything equal (practice, ability, etc.) the one putting face-on would get better faster and BE better all along that somebody putting conventionally. There just isn't any way that putting with two hands while standing sideways in position designed from movement and torque can be better for rolling a ball. Just isn't...

 

3. As to the pro golfers: I'm not sure how much we can reliably draw from watching pros do much of anything, including putting. It may be that they are less "victimized" by things like parallax error, and they are clearly crazy gifted both physically and mentally relative to the rest of us. But even for them, the fact that they putt conventionally doesn't mean that they are better than they would be if they had putted face-on their entire lives. Here are two analogies to consider from the very highest levels of sport:

a. For ALL of the early history of football, placekickers approached the ball straight on with a square-toed shoe; it was rare that you saw a field goal from outside 40 yards, and below the pro level, extra points were routinely missed. Until Pete Gogolak, of course, who doesn't happen along until around 1970 or so. Today, if a coach at any level encourage a kicker to kick the old way, it would be a fireable offense, and the NFL constantly looks for ways to make kicking less important; they've moved the goal posts back, narrowed them, moved extra points back, and so on. Soccer-style kicking was a sea change in football; it looked funny when it started, but it's just a better way to kick a ball. The surprising thing is that it took football coaches so long to figure it out; you'd have thought one of them would have accidentally seen a soccer game and seen a goal kick go 60 yards directly to the player for whom it was intended!

b. FOREVER, high jumpers were taught one of two methods; either the scissors or the Western roll. Until Dick Fosbury, of course, who comes along in the 60's with what became known as the "Fosbury Flop", but is now the ONLY way a jumper would ever be taught. And the reason, as with kicking, is biomechanical; the heaviest part of the body per cubic inch, the head, goes over first when the lift is greatest, and the legs, which can hinge at the knee, go last with a kick to straighten them. Again, looked funny when it started, but is now "industry standard". A track coach would no more teach the scissors or western roll today than he would teach standing flat footed to start the jump instead of a running start.

 

[ncp10]

> @bluedot said: Obviously, the other key piece is facing the hole; that has NOT caught on, and it might never. There are a lot of reasons for this; no equipment to experiment with, the stigma of being "different", the adjustment period, and so on. But the chances of seeing the masses putting face-on seem remote to me.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>This was my point! Yes, plenty put claw, left hand under, etc, but this thread is mostly about side saddle, face on putting.

 

 

There just isn't any way that putting with two hands while standing sideways in position designed from movement and torque can be better for rolling a ball. Just isn't...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure at all about this claim. What felt weird to me was pulling the putter backwards. A traditional swing, just like the swing you have with all of your other clubs, feels natural, and a pendulum type action is very doable. Also, I'm not at all convinced that the binocular vision claim will hold up for all players. I say say this because I'm very right-eye dominant and also have mild divergence insufficiency. This is why putting left-handed is really hard visually for me. I feel seeing the line and putting the ball on that line is very natural (it ought to be since i've done it for going on 55y!) from a right-handed traditional putting style. The jury is very out on this topic as I haven't had enough of an opportunity to believe I can put the club face perpendicular to the line from behind the ball. In a conventional setup one's eyes can be put on the line and the putter face can be put perpendicular to that line.

 

> 3. As to the pro golfers...But even for them, the fact that they putt conventionally doesn't mean that they are better than they would be if they had putted face-on their entire lives....

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>it's certainly a plausible theory, but at this point in time that's all it is. You can hardly argue w/ the 100's of tour pros, myriad web.com players, the entire womens/mens amateur circuits, etc. In the age of rapid spread of information and increasing competition if it turns out to truly be superior for most people, the face-on part, we should start seeing it any day now.

 

This forum ain't like others I've been on, sorry!

 

 

[bluedot]

I think the last piece to come around with ANY significant change in putting is lag putting from long distance, simply because that's difficult anyway and you have to "translate" your brain's database from one style to another. That's not an indictment on any method; it's just the reality of making a major change. I heard the same criticism of both the belly putter and the anchored long putter, but I don't think guys that stuck with it found it to be any different in the long run. It's a big change, and big changes take time.

 

But in general, I can't think of a single biomechanical reason that it should be more difficult to putt with one hand facing the hole from ANY distance than with two hands facing sideways, and a lot of reasons that it's biomechanically MORE sound to face the hole and putt one handed. Facing the hole and rolling the ball with one hand is how you would do it if you were rolling a ball without a club; there is no distance at which you would stand sideways and sling the ball with both arms involved. The only biomechanical advantage to standing parallel to the line of play, and I mean the ONLY one, is to create speed and power thru torque and a weight shift; there isn't another precision movement besides conventional putting in all of sports that is done from that position. And, ironically enough, the single most common instruction to struggling conventional putters is to stay perfectly still and just rock the shoulders from a position meant for movement! No wonder so many decent golfers are a mess as putters!

[ncp10]

> @bluedot said:

> I think the last piece to come around with ANY significant change in putting is lag putting from long distance, simply because that's difficult anyway and you have to "translate" your brain's database from one style to another. That's not an indictment on any method; it's just the reality of making a major change. I heard the same criticism of both the belly putter and the anchored long putter, but I don't think guys that stuck with it found it to be any different in the long run. It's a big change, and big changes take time.

>

> But in general, I can't think of a single biomechanical reason that it should be more difficult to putt with one hand facing the hole from ANY distance than with two hands facing sideways, and a lot of reasons that it's biomechanically MORE sound to face the hole and putt one handed. Facing the hole and rolling the ball with one hand is how you would do it if you were rolling a ball without a club; there is no distance at which you would stand sideways and sling the ball with both arms involved. The only biomechanical advantage to standing parallel to the line of play, and I mean the ONLY one, is to create speed and power thru torque and a weight shift; there isn't another precision movement besides conventional putting in all of sports that is done from that position. And, ironically enough, the single most common instruction to struggling conventional putters is to stay perfectly still and just rock the shoulders from a position meant for movement! No wonder so many decent golfers are a mess as putters!

 

I just picked up a used Ping 42" putter w/ a mallet type head and split grip to experiment w/ for all of $36 with a 7d return policy. I spent about 80 minutes practicing with it and I don't see the biomechanical justification quite yet for face-on putting. When you putt traditionally you can see the backswing in your peripheral vision. If you look at the hole like Randy H does you get none of that and even when you anchor the putter with thumb & ring finger of the left hand there's nothing biomechanical that prevents you from pulling the putter back inside or outside your intended line when you look at the target ala Randy H's approach. When I bowl I don't always put my ball on my intended line either and there is a whole lot more weight involved in this which to me implies it ought to be easier to keep it online than a putter head would be. I did many putts traditionally w/ this Ping side saddle type putter, and many putts face on. Seeing my line for long putts was definitely superior with traditional, but I was looking at the hole half the time w/ the face on putts just to try it out. Definitely w/ practice lag putting would come with face on, just like practicing anything over time improves outcomes in general. With short putts I did better traditionally for seeing and hitting my line. I began to have better luck w/ shorter putts face-on when I put the aim line on my ball on my intended line which is my habit normally.

 

It's easy to see that holding the shaft true vertical helps with this, nedas well keeping all of your biomechanics as aligned w/ vertical as possible, but isn't that illegal? Randy's argument seemed to be no one cares to look and call you on it. If you don't have the shaft vertical, now you have a weight on the end of a stick that is not hanging plumb, which in my mind absolutely impacts your ability to pull straight back and push straight thru if that is the action you're trying to do.

 

The 'stand perfectly still' you seem to be taking literally. I have interpreted this adage to mean keep the body/spine/head very steady, that's all. The same applies to face on putting-you need a stable platform to execute from no matter what the method. And, most importantly, this is how you hit all of golf shots be they short chips right on up to full shots. And this is why putting this way feels natural, that and of course because that's what we've all learned to do. What's really unnatural is to leave your golf swing completely, and face the target with a one arm swing action.

 

The shaft on the putter I found has quite an angle to it where it inserts into the head. This means to get vertical it's really just touching the outer edge, and it's fairly flat soled. It's doable, but doesn't seem very ideal. A radiused sole seems better as this one is fairly flat. I think what I will be looking for is maximum versatility: one that is very good for face on, and good for both right-handed and left-handed traditional. If you are aware of any models that fit this let me know.

[ncp10]

Here's Sam Snead w/ his crouched but similar version of face on putting: notice very substantial yip at 16 seconds on this shorter putt:

[BigEx44]

> @ncp10 said:

> I just picked up a used Ping 42" putter w/ a mallet type head and split grip to experiment w/ for all of $36 with a 7d return policy. I spent about 80 minutes practicing with it and I don't see the biomechanical justification quite yet for face-on putting. When you putt traditionally you can see the backswing in your peripheral vision.

>1) If you look at the hole like Randy H does you get none of that and even when you anchor the putter with thumb & ring finger of the left hand there's nothing biomechanical that prevents you from pulling the putter back inside or outside your intended line when you look at the target ala Randy H's approach. When I bowl I don't always put my ball on my intended line either and there is a whole lot more weight involved in this which to me implies it ought to be easier to keep it online than a putter head would be. I did many putts traditionally w/ this Ping side saddle type putter, and many putts face on. Seeing my line for long putts was definitely superior with traditional, but I was looking at the hole half the time w/ the face on putts just to try it out. Definitely w/ practice lag putting would come with face on, just like practicing anything over time improves outcomes in general. With short putts I did better traditionally for seeing and hitting my line. I began to have better luck w/ shorter putts face-on when I put the aim line on my ball on my intended line which is my habit normally.

>

> 2) It's easy to see that holding the shaft true vertical helps with this, nedas well keeping all of your biomechanics as aligned w/ vertical as possible, but isn't that illegal? Randy's argument seemed to be no one cares to look and call you on it. If you don't have the shaft vertical, now you have a weight on the end of a stick that is not hanging plumb, which in my mind absolutely impacts your ability to pull straight back and push straight thru if that is the action you're trying to do.

>

> 3) The 'stand perfectly still' you seem to be taking literally. I have interpreted this adage to mean keep the body/spine/head very steady, that's all. The same applies to face on putting-you need a stable platform to execute from no matter what the method. And, most importantly, this is how you hit all of golf shots be they short chips right on up to full shots. And this is why putting this way feels natural, that and of course because that's what we've all learned to do. What's really unnatural is to leave your golf swing completely, and face the target with a one arm swing action.

>

> 4) The shaft on the putter I found has quite an angle to it where it inserts into the head. This means to get vertical it's really just touching the outer edge, and it's fairly flat soled. It's doable, but doesn't seem very ideal. A radiused sole seems better as this one is fairly flat. I think what I will be looking for is maximum versatility: one that is very good for face on, and good for both right-handed and left-handed traditional. If you are aware of any models that fit this let me know.

 

1) I don't look at the hole the way Randy Haag does. That never worked for me. I look at the ball. So I can very clearly see the length of my backswing. And the way I set up with my right foot aligned and parallel to the target align, it's almost impossible for me to pull my putter too much inside (otherwise I'd hit my foot) . And I can't imagine how I could go outside the line unless I pulled my right elbow away from my right side, which would feel very unnatural and awkward.

 

2) Holding the shaft vertical is perfectly legal. What is illegal is a putter shaft designed with lie angle of greater than 80 degrees. But you are most definitely allowed to hold a putter shaft made at 80 degrees at a 90 degree angle (vertical)

 

3) The point is that it's MUCH easier IMHO to "stay still" while sidesaddling since only the right arm is moving. I've seen guys who putt traditionally struggle with a sway, or their head moving, or their left wrist breaking down. None of which is possible with a SS stroke.

 

4) Sounds like your using a Ping belly putter which would be horrible for a SS stroke (they're VERY flat, even more so than a traditional putter). To give SS an honest try - you need to get a putter with the max lie angle allowed of 80 degrees.

[Rohlio]

Agreed you need to go to a proper sidesaddle if you want a real test. 80* is key

[ncp10]

> @BigEx44 said:

> 2) Holding the shaft vertical is perfectly legal. What is illegal is a putter shaft designed with lie angle of greater than 80 degrees. But you are most definitely allowed to hold a putter shaft made at 80 degrees at a 90 degree angle (vertical)

 

I bought a Ping Pickemup Mallet Putter w/ a long handle. It looks to be more like 70 degrees or 65. Do you know of any putter models that would work well for left/right/face-on putting? My Seemore Platinum 2-way might be adaptable for this.

 

>>>>> From a Rand H blog:

John Levitt

May 19, 2017

It is my understanding that it is illegal to use a putter with the shaft vertical even if the shaft is 80* at rest. A putter must be used with the head in normal position which is how the degree of lie is measured.** If you manipulate the shaft to vertical, it is a violation.**

From USGA Equipment rules.

“If the overall design of a putter is such that the player can achieve a “vertical-pendulum” style stroke (i.e., putt effectively with the shaft in a vertical or near-vertical position), it would be ruled contrary to Appendix II, 1d, even if the shaft angle does satisfy the 10-degree Rule when the putter is in its “normal address position.” The shaft angle on such a putter could be required to be increased to as much as 25 degrees. In assessing whether a putter can be used effectively in a “vertical-pendulum” style manner, the combination of the following features should be considered:

length of shaft

position of shaft attachment to head

angle of shaft in toe-to-heel plane and front-to-back plane

shape and weight distribution of head

curvature and shape of sole

intent of the design

Even though each of these putter features, when considered separately, could conform to the Rules, the combination of the features might lead to a decision that the putter does not conform.”

---------

Randy's reply to this I think was that he hadn't been called on it so far.

[Rohlio]

> @ncp10 said:

> > @BigEx44 said:

> > 2) Holding the shaft vertical is perfectly legal. What is illegal is a putter shaft designed with lie angle of greater than 80 degrees. But you are most definitely allowed to hold a putter shaft made at 80 degrees at a 90 degree angle (vertical)

>

> >>>>> From a Rand H blog:

> John Levitt

> May 19, 2017

> It is my understanding that it is illegal to use a putter with the shaft vertical even if the shaft is 80* at rest. A putter must be used with the head in normal position which is how the degree of lie is measured.** If you manipulate the shaft to vertical, it is a violation.**

> From USGA Equipment rules.

> “If the overall design of a putter is such that the player can achieve a “vertical-pendulum” style stroke (i.e., putt effectively with the shaft in a vertical or near-vertical position), it would be ruled contrary to Appendix II, 1d, even if the shaft angle does satisfy the 10-degree Rule when the putter is in its “normal address position.” The shaft angle on such a putter could be required to be increased to as much as 25 degrees. In assessing whether a putter can be used effectively in a “vertical-pendulum” style manner, the combination of the following features should be considered:

> length of shaft

> position of shaft attachment to head

> angle of shaft in toe-to-heel plane and front-to-back plane

> shape and weight distribution of head

> curvature and shape of sole

> intent of the design

> Even though each of these putter features, when considered separately, could conform to the Rules, the combination of the features might lead to a decision that the putter does not conform.”

 

That is the ruling they used to stop Bryson.

 

I don't try to achieve a vertical shaft... At 80* and 48" my left hand can stay directly in front of my sternum and my r hand can swing freely.

[BigEx44]

> @ncp10 said:

> > @BigEx44 said:

> > 2) Holding the shaft vertical is perfectly legal. What is illegal is a putter shaft designed with lie angle of greater than 80 degrees. But you are most definitely allowed to hold a putter shaft made at 80 degrees at a 90 degree angle (vertical)

>

> I bought a Ping Pickemup Mallet Putter w/ a long handle. It looks to be more like 70 degrees or 65. Do you know of any putter models that would work well for left/right/face-on putting? My Seemore Platinum 2-way might be adaptable for this.

>

> >>>>> From a Rand H blog:

> John Levitt

> May 19, 2017

> It is my understanding that it is illegal to use a putter with the shaft vertical even if the shaft is 80* at rest. A putter must be used with the head in normal position which is how the degree of lie is measured.** If you manipulate the shaft to vertical, it is a violation.**

> From USGA Equipment rules.

> “If the overall design of a putter is such that the player can achieve a “vertical-pendulum” style stroke (i.e., putt effectively with the shaft in a vertical or near-vertical position), it would be ruled contrary to Appendix II, 1d, even if the shaft angle does satisfy the 10-degree Rule when the putter is in its “normal address position.” The shaft angle on such a putter could be required to be increased to as much as 25 degrees. In assessing whether a putter can be used effectively in a “vertical-pendulum” style manner, the combination of the following features should be considered:

> length of shaft

> position of shaft attachment to head

> angle of shaft in toe-to-heel plane and front-to-back plane

> shape and weight distribution of head

> curvature and shape of sole

> intent of the design

> Even though each of these putter features, when considered separately, could conform to the Rules, the combination of the features might lead to a decision that the putter does not conform.”

> ---------

> Randy's reply to this I think was that he hadn't been called on it so far.

 

I checked with USGA myself. You CAN hold a putter vertical. Just as you could hold your 9 iron vertical if you wanted to swing that way.

 

As long as the putter you're using conforms to USGA guidelines AND you don't anchor it - you can hold it any way you want.

 

So there's nothing to call Randy on.

 

 

[brentflog]

> @Rohlio said:

> > @ncp10 said:

> > > @BigEx44 said:

> > > 2) Holding the shaft vertical is perfectly legal. What is illegal is a putter shaft designed with lie angle of greater than 80 degrees. But you are most definitely allowed to hold a putter shaft made at 80 degrees at a 90 degree angle (vertical)

> >

> > >>>>> From a Rand H blog:

> > John Levitt

> > May 19, 2017

> > It is my understanding that it is illegal to use a putter with the shaft vertical even if the shaft is 80* at rest. A putter must be used with the head in normal position which is how the degree of lie is measured.** If you manipulate the shaft to vertical, it is a violation.**

> > From USGA Equipment rules.

> > “If the overall design of a putter is such that the player can achieve a “vertical-pendulum” style stroke (i.e., putt effectively with the shaft in a vertical or near-vertical position), it would be ruled contrary to Appendix II, 1d, even if the shaft angle does satisfy the 10-degree Rule when the putter is in its “normal address position.” The shaft angle on such a putter could be required to be increased to as much as 25 degrees. In assessing whether a putter can be used effectively in a “vertical-pendulum” style manner, the combination of the following features should be considered:

> > length of shaft

> > position of shaft attachment to head

> > angle of shaft in toe-to-heel plane and front-to-back plane

> > shape and weight distribution of head

> > curvature and shape of sole

> > intent of the design

> > Even though each of these putter features, when considered separately, could conform to the Rules, the combination of the features might lead to a decision that the putter does not conform.”

>

> That is the ruling they used to stop Bryson.

>

> I don't try to achieve a vertical shaft... At 80* and 48" my left hand can stay directly in front of my sternum and my r hand can swing freely.

 

Not true. They specifically told him he is free to putt side saddle but the putter he was using had a somewhat rounded sole that was deemed non conforming.

[ncp10]

> @brentflog said:

> Not true. They specifically told him he is free to putt side saddle but the putter he was using had a somewhat rounded sole that was deemed non conforming.

 

Must the sole not be radiused? I think many putters has some radius for sure, but there is a limit on that?

 

 

[ncp10]

> @BigEx44 said:

> As long as the putter you're using conforms to USGA guidelines AND you don't anchor it - you can hold it any way you want.

> So there's nothing to call Randy on.

 

That was Randy's words at the time. Now if my left elbow touches my chest but my left hand does not contact any body part, am I still not anchored?

 

 

[bluedot]

> @ncp10 said:

> > @BigEx44 said:

> > As long as the putter you're using conforms to USGA guidelines AND you don't anchor it - you can hold it any way you want.

> > So there's nothing to call Randy on.

>

> That was Randy's words at the time. Now if my left elbow touches my chest but my left hand does not contact any body part, am I still not anchored?

>

>

 

You are not anchoring if your left elbow is pinned to your side or your chest; lots of conventional putters do this to some degree or another.

 

You can use ANY club in a vertical position on ANY shot that you wish, on or off the green.

 

Dechambeau's putter was ruled non-conforming because of the head design, and the rules on that are fairly straightforward. FWIW, I was pretty sure it was non-conforming the second time I watched him use it; I tried doing what he was doing after the first day, and I could only do it with the shaft vertical and the heel of my putter well off the ground. When I watched him the second day, I couldn't see any gap between the heel of his putter and the ground, so my only surprise was that the USGA took so long to rule on it. I'm no fan of the USGA, but I lost a lot of respect for Dechambeau when he reacted to the USGA ruling; he had to know that he was in violation, or at least very close to it, when he put that putter into play.

[ncp10]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-FACE-ON-2-BALL-PUTTER-RH-LH-21-GRIP-CHOOSE-LENGTH-38-TO-44-SIDESADDLE/163574945129?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3Da2034df1f7d64ee682106de899bf3534%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D254029638193%26itm%3D163574945129%26pg%3D2481888&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Aed69675f-a66b-11e9-9df9-74dbd180dc98%7Cparentrq%3Af1ea8b3316b0a9c9aaaa7f31ff734ac0%7Ciid%3A1

 

79 degree lie, 3 degree loft, available up to 49", one 21" grip, and 416gm head weight. Thoughts on this putter?

 

 

[bluedot]

> @ncp10 said:

> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-FACE-ON-2-BALL-PUTTER-RH-LH-21-GRIP-CHOOSE-LENGTH-38-TO-44-SIDESADDLE/163574945129?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3Da2034df1f7d64ee682106de899bf3534%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D254029638193%26itm%3D163574945129%26pg%3D2481888&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Aed69675f-a66b-11e9-9df9-74dbd180dc98%7Cparentrq%3Af1ea8b3316b0a9c9aaaa7f31ff734ac0%7Ciid%3A1

>

> 79 degree lie, 3 degree loft, available up to 49", one 21" grip, and 416gm head weight. Thoughts on this putter?

>

>

 

I've seen this putter on Ebay for years now; it might be an good place to start? You will get differing opinions from the "community" about the best loft for side saddle, with 3* probably on the high end; I think 1 or 2 would be more common. But the key specs are the 80* lie angle and guessing the right length for you.

[Rohlio]

> @brentflog said:

> > @Rohlio said:

> > > @ncp10 said:

> > > > @BigEx44 said:

> > > > 2) Holding the shaft vertical is perfectly legal. What is illegal is a putter shaft designed with lie angle of greater than 80 degrees. But you are most definitely allowed to hold a putter shaft made at 80 degrees at a 90 degree angle (vertical)

> > >

> > > >>>>> From a Rand H blog:

> > > John Levitt

> > > May 19, 2017

> > > It is my understanding that it is illegal to use a putter with the shaft vertical even if the shaft is 80* at rest. A putter must be used with the head in normal position which is how the degree of lie is measured.** If you manipulate the shaft to vertical, it is a violation.**

> > > From USGA Equipment rules.

> > > “If the overall design of a putter is such that the player can achieve a “vertical-pendulum” style stroke (i.e., putt effectively with the shaft in a vertical or near-vertical position), it would be ruled contrary to Appendix II, 1d, even if the shaft angle does satisfy the 10-degree Rule when the putter is in its “normal address position.” The shaft angle on such a putter could be required to be increased to as much as 25 degrees. In assessing whether a putter can be used effectively in a “vertical-pendulum” style manner, the combination of the following features should be considered:

> > > length of shaft

> > > position of shaft attachment to head

> > > angle of shaft in toe-to-heel plane and front-to-back plane

> > > shape and weight distribution of head

> > > curvature and shape of sole

> > > intent of the design

> > > Even though each of these putter features, when considered separately, could conform to the Rules, the combination of the features might lead to a decision that the putter does not conform.”

> >

> > That is the ruling they used to stop Bryson.

> >

> > I don't try to achieve a vertical shaft... At 80* and 48" my left hand can stay directly in front of my sternum and my r hand can swing freely.

>

> Not true. They specifically told him he is free to putt side saddle but the putter he was using had a somewhat rounded sole that was deemed non conforming.

 

Thanks for the correction... Do you have a reference for that? I looked all over and found nothing official. It seemed like they just kind of made up a way to stop him, but I could never find anything officially from the USGA.

[ncp10]

I'd sure like to try a whole bunch but I don't think that's going to be a possibility. The white round balls for alignment seem bizarre and I think I'd rather have longer parallel lines, but I haven't tried it so don't know. Ed the golf club builder will give you a 30D no questions asked trial and he pays return shipping so not much risk there.

 

I think I'd take opinions on loft with a large grain of salt because there are just way too many other variables to consider. But the lie, that's pretty obvious as to why that matters. Patrice D make a good point on head width.

I really detest spending lots of $$ on golf equipment being well aware of how well knock offs and used clubs work if fit correctly. I have two sets of Ping I5 irons which I dearly love--I spent $1100 on the first custom fit set, and $280 on the 2nd off of eBay which are identical after I reshafted them, which I had done on my originals. And I also have two sets of knock-off fairway metals from DiamondTour.com and I hit them very well, and they are two different sets of heads & shafts. Each head was about $19, shaft $10, grip $5 for a grand total of $34 apiece plus tax. I've hit so many wonderful shots with them!

[BigEx44]

> @ncp10 said:

> I'd sure like to try a whole bunch but I don't think that's going to be a possibility. The white round balls for alignment seem bizarre and I think I'd rather have longer parallel lines, but I haven't tried it so don't know. Ed the golf club builder will give you a 30D no questions asked trial and he pays return shipping so not much risk there.

>

> I think I'd take opinions on loft with a large grain of salt because there are just way too many other variables to consider. But the lie, that's pretty obvious as to why that matters. Patrice D make a good point on head width.

> I really detest spending lots of $$ on golf equipment being well aware of how well knock offs and used clubs work if fit correctly. I have two sets of Ping I5 irons which I dearly love--I spent $1100 on the first custom fit set, and $280 on the 2nd off of eBay which are identical after I reshafted them, which I had done on my originals. And I also have two sets of knock-off fairway metals from DiamondTour.com and I hit them very well, and they are two different sets of heads & shafts. Each head was about $19, shaft $10, grip $5 for a grand total of $34 apiece plus tax. I've hit so many wonderful shots with them!

There are a bunch of sidesaddle putters on sale on ebay. And look at long putters too, as they almost always have an 80 degree lie angle.

 

Here's a 48" Ping B90 for $40.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RH-Ping-B90-48-Long-Chest-Belly-Putter-Center-Shafted-Needs-Grip/233283912315?hash=item3650ce027b:g:mMIAAOSwE0tdJewq:sc:USPSPriority!14450!US!-1

 

 

Start with one of those. Length wise if you're goig to miss, miss too long since you can always cut the shaft down.

Try the method out (experiment) with one of these cheaper/inexpensive models. If you end up liking the method, you can then upgrade to something better.

 

 

[brentflog]

> @Rohlio said:

> > @brentflog said:

> > > @Rohlio said:

> > > > @ncp10 said:

> > > > > @BigEx44 said:

> > > > > 2) Holding the shaft vertical is perfectly legal. What is illegal is a putter shaft designed with lie angle of greater than 80 degrees. But you are most definitely allowed to hold a putter shaft made at 80 degrees at a 90 degree angle (vertical)

> > > >

> > > > >>>>> From a Rand H blog:

> > > > John Levitt

> > > > May 19, 2017

> > > > It is my understanding that it is illegal to use a putter with the shaft vertical even if the shaft is 80* at rest. A putter must be used with the head in normal position which is how the degree of lie is measured.** If you manipulate the shaft to vertical, it is a violation.**

> > > > From USGA Equipment rules.

> > > > “If the overall design of a putter is such that the player can achieve a “vertical-pendulum” style stroke (i.e., putt effectively with the shaft in a vertical or near-vertical position), it would be ruled contrary to Appendix II, 1d, even if the shaft angle does satisfy the 10-degree Rule when the putter is in its “normal address position.” The shaft angle on such a putter could be required to be increased to as much as 25 degrees. In assessing whether a putter can be used effectively in a “vertical-pendulum” style manner, the combination of the following features should be considered:

> > > > length of shaft

> > > > position of shaft attachment to head

> > > > angle of shaft in toe-to-heel plane and front-to-back plane

> > > > shape and weight distribution of head

> > > > curvature and shape of sole

> > > > intent of the design

> > > > Even though each of these putter features, when considered separately, could conform to the Rules, the combination of the features might lead to a decision that the putter does not conform.”

> > >

> > > That is the ruling they used to stop Bryson.

> > >

>

 

> @Rohlio said:

> > @brentflog said:

> > > @Rohlio said:

> > > > @ncp10 said:

> > > > > @BigEx44 said:

> > > > > 2) Holding the shaft vertical is perfectly legal. What is illegal is a putter shaft designed with lie angle of greater than 80 degrees. But you are most definitely allowed to hold a putter shaft made at 80 degrees at a 90 degree angle (vertical)

> > > >

> > > > >>>>> From a Rand H blog:

> > > > John Levitt

> > > > May 19, 2017

> > > > It is my understanding that it is illegal to use a putter with the shaft vertical even if the shaft is 80* at rest. A putter must be used with the head in normal position which is how the degree of lie is measured.** If you manipulate the shaft to vertical, it is a violation.**

> > > > From USGA Equipment rules.

> > > > “If the overall design of a putter is such that the player can achieve a “vertical-pendulum” style stroke (i.e., putt effectively with the shaft in a vertical or near-vertical position), it would be ruled contrary to Appendix II, 1d, even if the shaft angle does satisfy the 10-degree Rule when the putter is in its “normal address position.” The shaft angle on such a putter could be required to be increased to as much as 25 degrees. In assessing whether a putter can be used effectively in a “vertical-pendulum” style manner, the combination of the following features should be considered:

> > > > length of shaft

> > > > position of shaft attachment to head

> > > > angle of shaft in toe-to-heel plane and front-to-back plane

> > > > shape and weight distribution of head

> > > > curvature and shape of sole

> > > > intent of the design

> > > > Even though each of these putter features, when considered separately, could conform to the Rules, the combination of the features might lead to a decision that the putter does not conform.”

> > >

> > > That is the ruling they used to stop Bryson.

> > >

> > > I don't try to achieve a vertical shaft... At 80* and 48" my left hand can stay directly in front of my sternum and my r hand can swing freely.

> >

> > Not true. They specifically told him he is free to putt side saddle but the putter he was using had a somewhat rounded sole that was deemed non conforming.

>

> Thanks for the correction... Do you have a reference for that? I looked all over and found nothing official. It seemed like they just kind of made up a way to stop him, but I could never find anything officially from the USGA.

 

Sorry don’t have a link. I talked to the USGA about an idea I had and I am guessing they also didn’t like the fact that he could hit it from the side of the putter and achieve a 90* lie angle.

 

[Ripper212]

> @ncp10 said:

> > @BigEx44 said:

> > As long as the putter you're using conforms to USGA guidelines AND you don't anchor it - you can hold it any way you want.

> > So there's nothing to call Randy on.

>

> That was Randy's words at the time. Now if my left elbow touches my chest but my left hand does not contact any body part, am I still not anchored?

>

>

 

PR Dionne who makes the GP putter specifically told me that you cannot let left elbow touch your chest when putting. Also note in the video posted above, he says he DOES NOT anchor left forearm to chest, and you can clearly see the left elbow is not in contact with his body.

[brentflog]

> @Ripper212 said:

> > @ncp10 said:

> > > @BigEx44 said:

> > > As long as the putter you're using conforms to USGA guidelines AND you don't anchor it - you can hold it any way you want.

> > > So there's nothing to call Randy on.

> >

> > That was Randy's words at the time. Now if my left elbow touches my chest but my left hand does not contact any body part, am I still not anchored?

> >

> >

>

> PR Dionne who makes the GP putter specifically told me that you cannot let left elbow touch your chest when putting. Also note in the video posted above, he says he DOES NOT anchor left forearm to chest, and you can clearly see the left elbow is not in contact with his body.

 

The elbow can be braced against the body. I can’t get it to touch my chest put could stick it in my gut. I don’t because it isn’t very comfortable

http://wpmedia.golfwrx.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Screen-Shot-2012-11-28-at-9.18.38-AM.png

[ncp10]

Here's a real important to me question for y'all: how many of you had world class yips only to discover SS/FO putting completely eliminated it for you? This is the only reason I'm investigating this method since there is cost and relearning involved. I think I saw one poster here say he hadn't heard of anyone yipping this stroke yet, but notice very substantial yip at 16 seconds on this shorter putt by Snead:

If you've had world class yips, you know that's exactly what happened on this stroke of Snead's.

Even w/ the funky Ping Pickmeup I bought to try this out I will know immediately if this obviates yipping for me, I just haven't played w/ people since picking it up. Always, it's been right-sided (hand/shoulder/etc) powering of the putting stroke that is yip-prone and clearly SS/FO is still a right-sided action. On the practice green I'm good, but that is not the test for yipping.

[Ripper212]

> @brentflog said:

> > @Ripper212 said:

> > > @ncp10 said:

> > > > @BigEx44 said:

> > > > As long as the putter you're using conforms to USGA guidelines AND you don't anchor it - you can hold it any way you want.

> > > > So there's nothing to call Randy on.

> > >

> > > That was Randy's words at the time. Now if my left elbow touches my chest but my left hand does not contact any body part, am I still not anchored?

> > >

> > >

> >

> > PR Dionne who makes the GP putter specifically told me that you cannot let left elbow touch your chest when putting. Also note in the video posted above, he says he DOES NOT anchor left forearm to chest, and you can clearly see the left elbow is not in contact with his body.

>

> The elbow can be braced against the body. I can’t get it to touch my chest put could stick it in my gut. I don’t because it isn’t very comfortable

> http://wpmedia.golfwrx.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Screen-Shot-2012-11-28-at-9.18.38-AM.png

 

No - that is prohibited as clearly depicted in the picture you linked. Forearm or elbow cannot be anchored anywhere on the body. With that said, nobody I play with would notice or care and I don't really pay much attention to it myself.

[Ripper212]

> @ncp10 said:

> Here's a real important to me question for y'all: how many of you had world class yips only to discover SS/FO putting completely eliminated it for you? This is the only reason I'm investigating this method since there is cost and relearning involved. I think I saw one poster here say he hadn't heard of anyone yipping this stroke yet, but notice very substantial yip at 16 seconds on this shorter putt by Snead:

>

> If you've had world class yips, you know that's exactly what happened on this stroke of Snead's.

> Even w/ the funky Ping Pickmeup I bought to try this out I will know immediately if this obviates yipping for me, I just haven't played w/ people since picking it up. Always, it's been right-sided (hand/shoulder/etc) powering of the putting stroke that is yip-prone and clearly SS/FO is still a right-sided action. On the practice green I'm good, but that is not the test for yipping.

I've never had yips so can't comment directly, but my understanding is that cure often involves doing something radically different. Can't get much different than SS/FO although one of my golf buddies, a 3 hcp with serious yips, cured his by putting left handed.

[J_Tizzle]

> @Ripper212 said:

> > @ncp10 said:

> > Here's a real important to me question for y'all: how many of you had world class yips only to discover SS/FO putting completely eliminated it for you? This is the only reason I'm investigating this method since there is cost and relearning involved. I think I saw one poster here say he hadn't heard of anyone yipping this stroke yet, but notice very substantial yip at 16 seconds on this shorter putt by Snead:

> >

> > If you've had world class yips, you know that's exactly what happened on this stroke of Snead's.

> > Even w/ the funky Ping Pickmeup I bought to try this out I will know immediately if this obviates yipping for me, I just haven't played w/ people since picking it up. Always, it's been right-sided (hand/shoulder/etc) powering of the putting stroke that is yip-prone and clearly SS/FO is still a right-sided action. On the practice green I'm good, but that is not the test for yipping.

> I've never had yips so can't comment directly, but my understanding is that cure often involves doing something radically different. Can't get much different than SS/FO although one of my golf buddies, a 3 hcp with serious yips, cured his by putting left handed.

 

I never had the "yips" per se, but my normal stroke was pretty terrible. SS fixed the bulk of my issues, its just practicing with the SS to get comfortable.

 

And trust me, I always tell people the hardest part of SS putting is making sure your skin is thick enough when you play with new people. But all they have to see if a few putts falling and it shuts them up fairly quick.

[brentflog]

> @Ripper212 said:

> > @brentflog said:

> > > @Ripper212 said:

> > > > @ncp10 said:

> > > > > @BigEx44 said:

> > > > > As long as the putter you're using conforms to USGA guidelines AND you don't anchor it - you can hold it any way you want.

> > > > > So there's nothing to call Randy on.

> > > >

> > > > That was Randy's words at the time. Now if my left elbow touches my chest but my left hand does not contact any body part, am I still not anchored?

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > PR Dionne who makes the GP putter specifically told me that you cannot let left elbow touch your chest when putting. Also note in the video posted above, he says he DOES NOT anchor left forearm to chest, and you can clearly see the left elbow is not in contact with his body.

> >

> > The elbow can be braced against the body. I can’t get it to touch my chest put could stick it in my gut. I don’t because it isn’t very comfortable

> > http://wpmedia.golfwrx.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Screen-Shot-2012-11-28-at-9.18.38-AM.png

>

> No - that is prohibited as clearly depicted in the picture you linked. Forearm or elbow cannot be anchored anywhere on the body. With that said, nobody I play with would notice or care and I don't really pay much attention to it myself.

 

Forearm is prohibited. Elbow isn’t look at the pictures again.