Can someone explain lie/impact marks etc and their meaning?

[flog2]

I went to the range and found black rubber marks very near the heel on my 4 iron, the rest nearer center.

 

I asked the pro but we both ended up more confused with what you bend and does heel mean more upright or flatter etc etc (poor guy was rushed off his feet so understandable)

 

I cant get my head around ideally what tweaks should be made, why and does it make a difference?

[EKELLY]

Depends on the swing and if you are in balance. Towards the heel could mean a few things. But, lie angle if definitely the first thing to look at......

[halliedog]

Typically heel impact would indicate too flat, so maybe try the 4 iron a degree or two more upright. If this works better for you, get the rest of your clubs checked also - the shorter you go in shaft length the flatter the lie angle becomes in most cases. I play better about 2* upright, but since I play my irons +1", I only need to go up 1* or not at all in lie angle in the longer clubs, but go up to +2/3* in the shorter clubs.

[dlygrisse]

Typically heel impact would indicate too flat, so maybe try the 4 iron a degree or two more upright. If this works better for you, get the rest of your clubs checked also - the shorter you go in shaft length the flatter the lie angle becomes in most cases. I play better about 2* upright, but since I play my irons +1", I only need to go up 1* or not at all in lie angle in the longer clubs, but go up to +2/3* in the shorter clubs.

 

No! It's just the opposite.

 

Heel impact means you are too upright. But I would also judge the ball flight. If the ball is going left it's a sure sign of too upright.

[Stuart_G]

Lots of reasons a ball can go in any particular direction. So ball flight is important but it's not necessarily an indicator of the lie angles being off.

 

The sole marks are not always an accurate way to judge whether the lie angles of the club are correct. They tell you more of what happens after impact than what happens right at impact.

 

If you really want to test the lie angles of the clubs accurately, use a dry erase marker and put a vertical line on the ball where it will impact the face. Then see how that line transfers to the club face after impact. If you do a search, you might even find a copy of the face labels Howard uses for that test to help out.

[EddieEdwards]

I believe Howard has a nice write up on how to use a lie board, but it is somewhat complicated. It would be better to use the dry erase marker method.

[flog2]

Lots of reasons a ball can go in any particular direction. So ball flight is important but it's not necessarily an indicator of the lie angles being off.

 

The sole marks are not always an accurate way to judge whether the lie angles of the club are correct. They tell you more of what happens after impact than what happens right at impact.

 

If you really want to test the lie angles of the clubs accurately, use a dry erase marker and put a vertical line on the ball where it will impact the face. Then see how that line transfers to the club face after impact. If you do a search, you might even find a copy of the face labels Howard uses for that test to help out.

 

I like that idea, what am I looking for after seeing an impact line?

[Stuart_G]

I like that idea, what am I looking for after seeing an impact line?

 

How vertical that line ends up being on the face, if it slants which way and how much. This should help.

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1355102-open-source-face-labels-for-lie-angle-diy-lie-angle-testing/

[SnowBound Golfer]

I agree with everything above, but personally like the lie board and label method over the marker method. Mainly because in order to be accurate, the marker line on the ball needs to be perfectly verticle at set up. A degree or two off verticle will give a false reading. Unless I am totally missing something on the marker method, I don't know many people that can eyeball a short (approx. 1" long) line, on a round object without the use of a square or some other visual aid. Same thing when looking at the results on the club face. Most of the time, clubs only need to be tweaked by a degree or two, so accuracy is important.

On the other hand, using labels with graduted lines will give repeatable results everytime. Every 1/4" out of center = 1° change in lie angle.

[dlygrisse]

I agree with everything above, but personally like the lie board and label method over the marker method. Mainly because in order to be accurate, the marker line on the ball needs to be perfectly verticle at set up. A degree or two off verticle will give a false reading. Unless I am totally missing something on the marker method, I don't know many people that can eyeball a short (approx. 1" long) line, on a round object without the use of a square or some other visual aid. Same thing when looking at the results on the club face. Most of the time, clubs only need to be tweaked by a degree or two, so accuracy is important.

On the other hand, using labels with graduted lines will give repeatable results everytime. Every 1/4" out of center = 1° change in lie angle.

You gotta understand that when the sole of the club impacts the lie board the ball is long gone. Now does the mark on the sole tell you what is going on? Maybe. The marker on the ball test shows what is happening at impact, which is much more accurate from what I have witnessed. Ball flight is the real indicator though, as well as solid impact.

 

In the end we rarely hit a golf ball on the course off a perfectly flat lie, so what we are looking for is a setup that gives us the most consistent strike and ball flight.

[SnowBound Golfer]

I agree that the ball is long gone by the time the club hit the lie board, but in the few milliseconds between the 2 events, does anything really happen with club lie angle? We may only know with the use of a well placed, high speed camera. In the meantime, perhaps it should come down to personal preferance and profiency. At the end of the day, we are still only talking about a degree or two of variance in lie angle. I think it is important for golfers/fitters to realize that there is more than one way to deal with lie angle measurement and none are perfect.

[Stuart_G]

I agree that the ball is long gone by the time the club hit the lie board, but in the few milliseconds between the 2 events, does anything really happen with club lie angle?

 

Yes, it really does (or can). Ball goes up so club has to go down. But because the shaft restricts how it goes down, that results in the toe dropping more than the heel (more shaft droop) instead of a more even reaction.

 

Some nice slow speed videos here (and plenty of math if you are into that type of thing)

 

https://www.tutelman...downdeflect.php

 

And that's still assuming the impact was centered on the c.g. Off center impact can cause a lot more motion that can throw off the results with a lie board. Also, if the player has a lot of face rotation through impact, that can throw things off as well. Remember the lie board will show the results based on the full time the club is in contact with the ground, not just the initial contact, and that can extend several inches past the point of impact.

[Howard_Jones]

I agree with everything above, but personally like the lie board and label method over the marker method. Mainly because in order to be accurate, the marker line on the ball needs to be perfectly verticle at set up. A degree or two off verticle will give a false reading. Unless I am totally missing something on the marker method, I don't know many people that can eyeball a short (approx. 1" long) line, on a round object without the use of a square or some other visual aid. Same thing when looking at the results on the club face. Most of the time, clubs only need to be tweaked by a degree or two, so accuracy is important.

On the other hand, using labels with graduted lines will give repeatable results everytime. Every 1/4" out of center = 1° change in lie angle.

 

Sorry but its a big misunderstanding.

For a club with a loft of about 30* the gear ratio from lie angle to the line on the face is 1:10, meaning a line with a angle on the face of 10* is only 1* on the lie angle. You have to be dead drunk and then some if you cant align the ball good enough to judge the lie angles within 0.5 using face labels, so its absolute no issue at all.

 

Just look at this labels, who is NOT able to align a ball with a line within 5*? most of us can do that within 1-2* and thats 0.1 to 0.2 on lie angle.

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1355102-open-source-face-labels-for-lie-angle-diy-lie-angle-testing/page__st__30#entry13852174

 

Using a lie board has tons of error sources, and dont tell lie angle at impact at all, it tells about sole interaction with the ground after impact.

Converting that to lie angle is far from easy, so that method is out of date. in 8 out of 9 cases, lie angles will be judged wrong using a lie board, so its really a shot in the dark where we have to know path and face angle at impact, and even then we are not able to judge it right.

 

Just take a look on all 9 sole impact marks on the left side, ALL of them tells about a CORRECT lie angle, but most will judge only 1 of them to be correct, so the 8 others mislead the player to make a lie change NOT good for him.

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/uploads/monthly_06_2014/post-100881-0-21466600-1402816720.jpg

[mbmdeuce]

Wishon is one of the best club makers/fitters in the country and wrote this up for WRX

http://www.golfwrx.com/277293/the-best-way-to-fit-lie-angle/

[Cwebb]

I agree that the ball is long gone by the time the club hit the lie board, but in the few milliseconds between the 2 events, does anything really happen with club lie angle?

 

the shaft can actually droop down from the force of head to ball impact, which in addition to the other factors can also lead to an upright "suggestion" if using a lie board. Here's a video that shows the effect....

[SnowBound Golfer]

Thanks for the education everyone. Howard, I will be reading your post on the subject more carefully. Full of great information. Didn't realize there was a ratio involved which makes it easier to analyze the result. Before reading up on it, I will ask the question anyways, Does the ratio change with different lofts?

 

Thanks again

[Mattz]

I was worried that I wasnt placing the line perfectly vertical when doing the sharpie lie test. Then I hit 4 other balls. The 5 marks on my club were all on top of each other suggesting I need +1-2 upright. You can misplace it once maybe if youre not careful that time but if you hit many balls, you quickly find a trend that you can count on.

[Howard_Jones]

Thanks for the education everyone. Howard, I will be reading your post on the subject more carefully. Full of great information. Didn't realize there was a ratio involved which makes it easier to analyze the result. Before reading up on it, I will ask the question anyways, Does the ratio change with different lofts?

 

Thanks again

 

Yes it does, but i never got to the point where i could make a "chart" for it, so those labels is NOT PERFECT for using on a hole set from #3 to LOB wedge.They are designed to be used for a iron with a loft of 31* (standard #6 on players irons, the one used for fitting in most cases)

 

The way to use them goes like this:

- Take the #6 iron and put on the label, hit a few balls and pay attention to the ANGLE of that line and compare it with the label behind.

We dont always impact the line itself, so its the ANGLE not impact spot.

 

No matter what actual lie angle this club has, the label tells how much we must adjust it one way or the other. to get it right.

Tweak, and try it again to make sure it became right.

 

When this iron is made, compare the actual lie angle on the club with "standard specs" for that model, and use the same "offset vs std" on the hole set. SO if the test club ends up with a lie angle of 1* upright vs standard specs, use 1* uprigth for the hole set.

 

Now you cant test each club in the set with the label, just to make sure they all turned out right, and tweak if needed.

 

That means is labels NOT "good enough" to be put on a whole set to send a way to someone for adjusting vs labels, use them on the club closest to 31 loft, and tweak the others to the same offset factor vs standard, thats how they should be used.

 

They might be used for both hybrids, woods and drivers with adjustable hosel, If the line from the ball aint strait, then adjust hosel settings, and test again, they should be good enough for that too since we seek a "strait vertical line" so it will always tell correct direction to tweak, even if it want be dead on with the ratio 10:1 when lie angle is off. This clubs is often forgotten especial hybrids with higher loft used to replace #3 and #4 irons, they should be tweaked right when possible, and that option exist on most hybrids today, but we could never test hybrids on a lie board, so this method has always been the only one for those clubs.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Howard, "hole" is an incorrect word choice for your idea. use "whole" instead.

[cxx]

The impact marks on the labels give you an idea of how to bend the lie angle. Really you have to bend and retest. The only sure thing is that the line should be vertical when the lie angle is correct for your swing. Unless you are bending clubs yourself it's better to do this test where you are getting your clubs bent. You'll save a lot of time and money.