Golf is dying: "lost 5 million players in the last decade... another 5 million will quit in the next

[Trill]

Golf isn't dying. It's a fluctuation. Everything rises and falls, whether it be economies, nations, or something like the game of golf.

[watch4sharx]

Does anyone have statistics on the number of rounds played per year worldwide over the past 10 years? I searched and could not find anything. I'd like to see it not including North America. That would give us a true representation of the health of the sport.

[Argonne69]

[quote name='Conrad1953' timestamp='1408059839' post='9936657']
Well, this thread has been going for nearly 4 months. Certainly,
that must mean something. I just don't know what it is.
[/quote]

Yeah, but the number of posts is trailing off. 'Guess discussions about golf dying are dying.......

[Sean2]

[quote name='ASXA' timestamp='1408057308' post='9936345']
Yeah I was saying A STRIP of bars.... not the strip club. Like... a row of bars where people go out at night...and you know... bar hop. :P

Trust me I'm not exactly looking for Booby bar clientele joining my local course either... although I certainly welcome anyone.


I do see what you're saying though. Theres no doubt in my mind that 21-25 year olds wouldn't exactly be viewed as revenue drivers for a club. Hell, THE BF and I do really well for ourselves, we own our own home, 2 luxury cars, take pretty swank vacations, and a private club membership is NOT AT ALL in the picture for us financially ($25,000 is not doable for seasonal golf). To wit: I don't want sink money into a membership, I'd rather play different courses. The ol'Club Life and Membership culture just doesn't really apply to these age groups anymore, but that doesn't mean that they can be revenue generators for other aspects of the game.

A nearby public course did a promotion earlier this year called "30 under 30". $30 bucks for 18 holes with cart per person if you're under 30 years old. They even gave you free club rental if you didn't own your own set (with a refundable deposit of course). It was IMPOSSIBLE to get a tee time on 30 under 30 days and it was mostly new golfers. Guys bringing out their girlfriends, siblings, buddies who never played golf before. I've made quite a few new buds because of the 30 under 30 days and it was loads of fun to golf all day and then slam fireball shots in the clubhouse after with all the other golfers my age.

I feel like things like this.... golf as something social that 20 and 30 somethings can do can help lift the veil over golf that make people perceive it as "my retired dads boring hobby"
[/quote]

I have never been to a strip club, but if I had occasion to go, I would probably think, wow, if I had their flexibility I could really gain some more yards.

Though I am 59, I like the 30/30 idea. I don't know why courses don't do it in my neck of the woods. Another thing I'd like to see is a "discount" card for some of the nicer courses in our area. For example, you purchase a card for $500, and can play 10 different courses in the area, or one course 10 times or five courses twice, etc. It would require some coordination on the part of the courses though.

[Jc0]

[quote name='Trill' timestamp='1408068879' post='9937799']
Golf isn't dying. It's a fluctuation. Everything rises and falls, whether it be economies, nations, or something like the game of golf.
[/quote]

Agreed. It is basic supply and demand. Supply increase, but demand didn't keep up. That being said golf is to expensive for the average person. I just gradated and have been able to find a job that will let me afford golf. If I was making 35-40,000 a year (which is what most college grads make), I would not be able to afford it. Golf has price out the younger audience and that is the major issue. A average round of golf costs around $40 (for me), I just signed up for a slow pitch softball league that cost me $60 total (6 games at minimum). Comparing those prices it is no wonder the young adult goes to other sports first before golf (40 per round golf, 10 per game softball).

[njlam]

I don't know if golf is dying, but I do know it needs to lose some weight to become more healthy.

Golf is and has always been expensive and time consuming. From the equipment, instruction, green fees, course maintenance, etc, there is no way around it.

I played very little golf when I was young; I couldn't afford the time or the cost. School, career and kids were good reasons not to play golf.

Now that I older (mid 50s) and have more time and money, I can afford to play the game. Postponing gratification has been good as I really enjoy the game.

Trying to get people to play golf who do not have the time or money is wrong and over the long run is unsustainable.

The business of golf needs to get used to the idea that there is a finite market to be served and this market needs to be served well.

Currently, golf can use fewer OEMs (with longer product cycles) and fewer courses.

As for getting more players in the game, making the game more welcoming to woman and children (who wouldn't already be playing) would be nice, but if they can't afford the time or the cost their future in golf is questionable/unsustainable anyway.

Organic growth = people who have time and money regardless of age/gender/race.

I am not trying to be negative, just realistic. Golf has not been the province of those who have an abundance of time and money for no reason.

If I played a lot of golf when I was young, I would not be as well-educated, professionally-accomplished, or have as balanced a family life as I do as a happy middle-aged man.

Reporting live from the target market....

Trying to make the market bigger than it really is ultimately hurts everyone.

[mr_divots]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1408159194' post='9945235']
[quote name='ASXA' timestamp='1408057308' post='9936345']
Yeah I was saying A STRIP of bars.... not the strip club. Like... a row of bars where people go out at night...and you know... bar hop. :P

Trust me I'm not exactly looking for Booby bar clientele joining my local course either... although I certainly welcome anyone.


I do see what you're saying though. Theres no doubt in my mind that 21-25 year olds wouldn't exactly be viewed as revenue drivers for a club. Hell, THE BF and I do really well for ourselves, we own our own home, 2 luxury cars, take pretty swank vacations, and a private club membership is NOT AT ALL in the picture for us financially ($25,000 is not doable for seasonal golf). To wit: I don't want sink money into a membership, I'd rather play different courses. The ol'Club Life and Membership culture just doesn't really apply to these age groups anymore, but that doesn't mean that they can be revenue generators for other aspects of the game.

A nearby public course did a promotion earlier this year called "30 under 30". $30 bucks for 18 holes with cart per person if you're under 30 years old. They even gave you free club rental if you didn't own your own set (with a refundable deposit of course). It was IMPOSSIBLE to get a tee time on 30 under 30 days and it was mostly new golfers. Guys bringing out their girlfriends, siblings, buddies who never played golf before. I've made quite a few new buds because of the 30 under 30 days and it was loads of fun to golf all day and then slam fireball shots in the clubhouse after with all the other golfers my age.

I feel like things like this.... golf as something social that 20 and 30 somethings can do can help lift the veil over golf that make people perceive it as "my retired dads boring hobby"
[/quote]

[b]I have never been to a strip club, but if I had occasion to go, I would probably think, wow, if I had their flexibility I could really gain some more yards.

Though I am 59,[/b] I like the 30/30 idea. I don't know why courses don't do it in my neck of the woods. Another thing I'd like to see is a "discount" card for some of the nicer courses in our area. For example, you purchase a card for $500, and can play 10 different courses in the area, or one course 10 times or five courses twice, etc. It would require some coordination on the part of the courses though.
[/quote]
There was no need to clarify your age after the opening sentiment. LOL!

[bigdaddyj]

I don't know if golf is dying or not, but there are definitely problems related to the sport.

Cost: I'm lucky because I play at a 9 hole private club that is about half the price of the least expensive in the area. I'd like to play at an 18 hole better course, but with buy in, monthly fee and high food minimums I'd have to sell all my organs or rob a bank. The fees at public courses have gotten so high that I couldn't afford to play often enough. That and the season pass has all but gone extinct. I won't even comment on the price of equipment.

Pace of play: One of the biggest problems in my opinion. There are too many groups that think it's an all day social event and don't care how many groups are backed up behind them. Courses don't say anything because they need the revenue and will cram as many people in as possible. This also morphs into etiquette. Not playing ready golf, talking or filling scores while on the greens, hitting mulligans, taking 15 minutes to search for a lost ball and the list goes on and on. If you want to make it a party and spray the ball all over the map go to a range. You'll be doing us and yourselves a favor. Far too many people on the course that haven't learned the game well enough to be out there. If you're that slow, let groups play through, and if you have to let groups go through all day, find another hobby. Sorry to sound harsh, but you're ruining it for everybody else.

Its' too bad women don't feel welcome. I find them generally more willing to let faster groups to play through, have a better on course temperament and play faster than a lot of the male players.

[mr_divots]

[quote name='Jc0' timestamp='1408160129' post='9945317']
[quote name='Trill' timestamp='1408068879' post='9937799']
Golf isn't dying. It's a fluctuation. Everything rises and falls, whether it be economies, nations, or something like the game of golf.
[/quote]

Agreed. It is basic supply and demand. Supply increase, but demand didn't keep up. That being said golf is to expensive for the average person. I just gradated and have been able to find a job that will let me afford golf. If I was making 35-40,000 a year (which is what most college grads make), I would not be able to afford it. Golf has price out the younger audience and that is the major issue. A average round of golf costs around $40 (for me), I just signed up for a slow pitch softball league that cost me $60 total (6 games at minimum). Comparing those prices it is no wonder the young adult goes to other sports first before golf (40 per round golf, 10 per game softball).
[/quote]
The golf downturn followed right in the footsteps of the housing downturn. The two were linked way too much. When we reduce the 2nd worst economic correction in our very short national history as "Business as usual," business is broken. There is nothing typical of any of this.

[Joe Rockhead]

The reduction in golfers is only relevant to equipment companies and golf courses. Reduced green fees and lower equipment costs as the demand is reduced.

The golf course industry foolishly over built with way too many courses and now many will close, or be sold at a loss, changed to housing developments.

Life goes on and us golfer that love golf continue to golf--zero change.

[Llortamaisey]

My local golf course is going to be down between 60k to 70k rounds this year. They were only at 225 for the day before 5:00 on Thursday. Hopefully golf dies a little faster, I need a tee time.

[BillyZ2]

I have had a few 5.5 hour rounds on sundays this year, from tooo many golfers.

[mr_divots]

[quote name='Joe Rockhead' timestamp='1408306213' post='9952513']
The reduction in golfers is only relevant to equipment companies and golf courses. [b]Reduced green fees and lower equipment costs as the demand is reduced.[/b]

The golf course industry foolishly over built with way too many courses and now many will close, or be sold at a loss, changed to housing developments.

Life goes on and us golfer that love golf continue to golf--zero change.
[/quote]
Not sustainable. Prices go up, eventually, in such a scenario. And given the increases we have already been seeing in green fees, don't get too cavalier in thinking it will just mean cheap golf goin forward. Golf is definitely on a long term path to being much more exclusive again.

[marmooskapaul]

[quote name='mr_divots' timestamp='1408574114' post='9975737']
[quote name='Joe Rockhead' timestamp='1408306213' post='9952513']
The reduction in golfers is only relevant to equipment companies and golf courses. [b]Reduced green fees and lower equipment costs as the demand is reduced.[/b]

The golf course industry foolishly over built with way too many courses and now many will close, or be sold at a loss, changed to housing developments.

Life goes on and us golfer that love golf continue to golf--zero change.
[/quote]
Not sustainable. Prices go up, eventually, in such a scenario. And given the increases we have already been seeing in green fees, don't get too cavalier in thinking it will just mean cheap golf goin forward. Golf is definitely on a long term path to being much more exclusive again.
[/quote]

It can't get much cheaper around here, but I'm not complaining.
Paul

[Break81]

When I can get a tee time for Saturday when checking on a Thursday that is a good thing. No more getting up at the crack of dawn 7 days prior just to get a time for the following weekend. Plus I have a few choices to my liking.

Courses are still pretty full, because of promotional rates and much earlier twilight rates. Being able to finish a twilight round with a hour to spare in quite nice. Courses are still making money, and yes some have cut corners in order to do so. The bubble has burst a little and now we have a reset, not a collapse of the golf industry.

[gopherguts]

Golf wasn't marketed much when I was 21.

 

Hard marketing without TV and radio,,,,,,,, :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy:

 

[mosesgolf]

Quite frankly I like it that there are less people out on the course these days. I havn't played a 5.5 - 6hour round in years. A round usually takes 4.5 hours nowadays on weekends. It's not PACKED like it used to be. And I like it that way.

[Pepperturbo]

Golf wasn't marketed much when I was 21.

 

Hard marketing without TV and radio,,,,,,,, :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy:

 

 

I represent that .. :clapping: Do you know how hard it is to hit a rock with a tree stump.

[gopherguts]

Golf wasn't marketed much when I was 21.

 

Hard marketing without TV and radio,,,,,,,, :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy:

 

 

I represent that .. :clapping: Do you know how hard it is to hit a rock with a tree stump.

 

Yeah ? Try hitting it with a dinosaur shin bone. :dntknw:

 

I think I was in the group behind you when that "shot" was taken ! :D

[Hot Rod 71]

So are the numbers we have now being compared to the pre-Tiger era or from then until now?

Poker experienced a boom several years back. The WSOP main event went from 2-3 thousand participants to over 10 thousand in one year. Since then participation has subsided and there are normally 5-6 thousand players.

So the question is: is participation down, or is it still up compared to what it was before the boom?

[Startzel]

[quote name='Hot Rod 71' timestamp='1408801138' post='9992679']
So are the numbers we have now being compared to the pre-Tiger era or from then until now?

Poker experienced a boom several years back. The WSOP main event went from 2-3 thousand participants to over 10 thousand in one year. Since then participation has subsided and there are normally 5-6 thousand players.

So the question is: is participation down, or is it still up compared to what it was before the boom?
[/quote]

The WSOP only decreased because the us banned American players from playing online poker.

[360_CS]

Aren't they having the same discussion in tennis. Top players are saying get rid of the "Quiet please" and let spectators make noise during a point. Would that attract new people? I can't see it happening how do you stop someone screaming out during a serve to put someone off during match point. During the Ryder Cup last time Bubba and Poulter got people yelling during their swing and didn't mind it. I doubt they would like it if they need a birdie on the last to win though.

[francis89]

[quote name='360_CS' timestamp='1408845528' post='9995831']
Aren't they having the same discussion in tennis. Top players are saying get rid of the "Quiet please" and let spectators make noise during a point. Would that attract new people? I can't see it happening how do you stop someone screaming out during a serve to put someone off during match point. During the Ryder Cup last time Bubba and Poulter got people yelling during their swing and didn't mind it. I doubt they would like it if they need a birdie on the last to win though.
[/quote]

I think a sport like tennis or golf can have ratings that jump all over the place since they aren't team sports and most people don't really have a strong allegiance to a single player that they root hard for like they would have for a local sports team. They are very popular if there is a good rivalry in the sport or if one player is doing something historical, but even then one player dominating can get a little old after awhile.

[Hot Rod 71]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1408840960' post='9995415']
[quote name='Hot Rod 71' timestamp='1408801138' post='9992679']
So are the numbers we have now being compared to the pre-Tiger era or from then until now?

Poker experienced a boom several years back. The WSOP main event went from 2-3 thousand participants to over 10 thousand in one year. Since then participation has subsided and there are normally 5-6 thousand players.

So the question is: is participation down, or is it still up compared to what it was before the boom?
[/quote]

The WSOP only decreased because the us banned American players from playing online poker.
[/quote]

Inaccurate.

[Startzel]

[quote name='Hot Rod 71' timestamp='1408888940' post='9997393']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1408840960' post='9995415']
[quote name='Hot Rod 71' timestamp='1408801138' post='9992679']
So are the numbers we have now being compared to the pre-Tiger era or from then until now?

Poker experienced a boom several years back. The WSOP main event went from 2-3 thousand participants to over 10 thousand in one year. Since then participation has subsided and there are normally 5-6 thousand players.

So the question is: is participation down, or is it still up compared to what it was before the boom?
[/quote]

The WSOP only decreased because the us banned American players from playing online poker.
[/quote]

Inaccurate.
[/quote]

I see facts are unnecessary here.

[Hot Rod 71]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1408891204' post='9997527']
[quote name='Hot Rod 71' timestamp='1408888940' post='9997393']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1408840960' post='9995415']
[quote name='Hot Rod 71' timestamp='1408801138' post='9992679']
So are the numbers we have now being compared to the pre-Tiger era or from then until now?

Poker experienced a boom several years back. The WSOP main event went from 2-3 thousand participants to over 10 thousand in one year. Since then participation has subsided and there are normally 5-6 thousand players.

So the question is: is participation down, or is it still up compared to what it was before the boom?
[/quote]

The WSOP only decreased because the us banned American players from playing online poker.
[/quote]

Inaccurate.
[/quote]

I see facts are unnecessary here.
[/quote]

Like the facts you supplied to back up your claim that the WSOP attendance is down because of on line poker?

U.S. Players can still play online poker for real money.

[fumanchu1]

[quote name='Yellow Jacket' timestamp='1398258360' post='9150321']
The New York Times published an article last Friday discussing the many ways golf is dying and the attempts to grow the game: [url="http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/19/sports/golf/in-a-hole-golf-considers-digging-a-wider-one.html"]http://www.nytimes.c...-wider-one.html[/url]

[b]To summarize the article, the main reasons why golf is dying:[/b]
1) Too hard
2) Too expensive
3) Takes too long
4) Women don't feel welcome

[b]Why they're hard to fix:[/b]
1) Too hard
The best way to make the game easier is to have everyone play forward tees. People will always slice the ball and 3 putt, but it's most frustrating when you're chunking shots from the rough, so fewer of those is better for everyone. Unfortunately, the majority of golfers have stubborn egos.

2) Too expensive
Equipment is too expensive, but companies have back themselves into a corner releasing $500 drivers every 6 months. No CEO will ever cut back once they've established that revenue stream because they will immediately be fired, and the next CEO won't make the same mistake.
Green fees are also too expensive. Too many golf courses were built in the past 15-20 years. Indeed, there is a bubble in golf courses just as there was in housing. With fewer golfers, courses try to charge the highest prices they can get away with when they should just go out of business.

3) Takes too long
This is a byproduct of 1 with golfers playing tees that are too long. It's also a byproduct of too many tee times being squeeze together, a byproduct of courses trying not to lose money. Hell, the course I regularly play has tee times every 8 minutes which makes weekend rounds take 5-6 hours.

4) Women don't feel welcome
When half the population is missing, of course you're going to have problems. But this is to hard to fix, in large part because the majority of people who control golf and spend money on golf are from the Mad Men generation, when women knew their place (in the kitchen). Younger people are more progressive, but they aren't playing the game because of the aforementioned majority older players.

[b]Why Golf Is Doomed[/b]
It may seem like I'm saying older white men are the reason why golf is dying. Of course, it's more complicated than that. But there are systemic issues in the game, and by the time they're fixed, I fear golf as a recreational sport is basically going to die like boxing did as a spectator sport.

PGA of America president Ted Bishop: “I went to a golf club’s 125th anniversary dinner not long ago, and the overwhelming majority of the people in the room were over 55. We should be asking, ‘On that club’s 150th anniversary, who’s going to attend?’” My answer? No one.
[/quote]

Funny I see more below 25yrs old players than I ever did before on the course, I agree though that greenfees are expensive but equipment(starting point is yes) but the hold no value so one may pick up a decent set of clubs 1-2yr old for around 250$.

That being said 5+hrs in the hectic pace being pushed by today's society is very demanding(I'll agree completely with that)

Also I'd be curious to see the amount of golfers affected by tiger woods(by that I mean huge gain in popularity of the sport when he was dominating and his legacy being tarnished as of late). I'm sure(although probably impossible to quantify) that this aspect as also had a considerable effect on golfers(whether they play or not). In the height of his popularity you coukld hear children say I want to be the next tiger... no so much now (old people die everyday, no offense, and in order to stay healthy golf must attract younger players (dropping dress codes to a more casual wear might be a start)

anyways just my 2cents

[BillyZ2]

Is golf dying?
[url="https://finance.yahoo.com/news/investors-betting-golfs-decline-124651701.html"]https://finance.yahoo.com/news/investors-betting-golfs-decline-124651701.html[/url]

[ctmason_98]

[quote name='Tom Gski' timestamp='1409172889' post='10020735']
Is golf dying?
[url="https://finance.yahoo.com/news/investors-betting-golfs-decline-124651701.html"]https://finance.yaho...-124651701.html[/url]
[/quote]

It is declining as has been shown multiple times in this thread and this article only reiterates that and takes the side of how shorting such stocks with "exposure to the sport" is happening, as one would expect.

What exactly is your point?

[ButchE]

theone common factor listed in most of the 21 pages is this: economics. Now that is a wide scoped reason, but accurate. One hing I didn't see stated is the actual value of the LAND a course sets on. To a developer, it's solid gold with already landscaped parcels available...meaning the fairways won't require high dollar excavationing. That's what happened to the oldest and best course in our area, with land prices reaching outrageous levels,a fore-closed or one in bad financial state is easy pickings. As for the cost of equipment, it's irrelevant if it's put on a credit card = adding deeper personal debt..never a good thing anytime anywhere. I realize I'm probably older than 70+ % of those here, but I can remember when both parents didn't have to work to make ends meet...not so today, and that picture isn't changing...if anything it's getting to the point where THAT'S not enough to make ends meet. I saw on TV the other nite that it now costs over 250K to raise a child....that's a bunch of after-tax income...we all know wages are not rising nearly fast enough to allow much,if any, disposable income, and that's where the golf $$ comes from. but as more and more houses are being required, and only sooo much available land in most areas, courses are targeted for development..that includes courses who now build w/i the boundaries,who started off with no homes, or plans to build.