The Sandbagging Madness has to stop...

[Hellstorm]

I have never played a tournament round in my life and sandbagging is the exact reason why. I guess I just don't get it. I have a hard time understanding why somebody would want a higher handicap than they play to just to win one tournament. To me, a HCP is a measuring stick that measures your personal abilities against others. I personally would want the lowest HCP possible to reflect how much work I put into my game and measure how much I actually improve.

I know people in my league sandbag and to me, its not much different than using a foot wedge or taking a gimme on a 6 foot putt. Everything is match play in the league but I have twice run into a situation where I was giving a couple strokes, shot my average and lost almost every hole. I play the same guy this week in the playoffs. I am a 6 and he is an 11 now. Last time he was a 13 and I was a 7. He shot a 40 and I shot 44 and I didn't take a single point. When he played my buddy, he played well to start but wasnt winning holes and tanked the end of the round because the HCP is on a rotating system for the last 3 rounds. If I shoot a 44 this week and don't take a point, there will be violence. One time could be a fluke like the guys above mentioned but twice is no fluke.

The worst part was the guy wasn't even excited about shooting a 40. If my 9 hole HCP was a 13 and I turned in a card with a 40 on it at the end, they would need to carry me out of the place I would be celebrating so hard.

[avrag]

Force the USGA to get rid of the system, in which every round counts towards the handicap or stop whining.

[Golf Monkey]

[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1409483133' post='10039375']
PJ72 is right that the CONGU handicapping system in the UK and Ireland is less prone to the sort of manipulation being talked about in the USA. There are two factors, however, which might make it unworkable in the USA. Firstly, CONGU authorised handicaps are restricted to members of affiliated clubs which means that the clubs control and monitor members' handicaps. If you enter any open competition that requires a CONGU handicap as a condition of entry (which would be the norm for any club hosting one), you know that every other competitor's handicap has been acquired and adjusted through competition rounds administered by his/her club in accordance with CONGU regulations. It's not foolproof (and not all clubs will be as particular in running the handicapping system as mine and most others are) but every club should be watching out for any member trying to "build" an inflated handicap. Now that is all very well and good where the majority of golf is played in member clubs, but I understand that most of the golf played in the USA is on public courses by players who do not necessarily belong to a club. It seems you just don't have the structure to sustain such a closely monitored system.

The second factor is the connected one of peer scrutiny. As PJ says, other members will be alert to instances of handicap building and have a direct line to raise concerns with the Committee (which should be monitoring anyway). Again that only works because of the club set up.

NB "Direct line" to the Committee really means cornering the Handicap Convener in the bar and having a go at him.
[/quote]

There's not a lot a Handicap Sec. can do as the CONGU system is pretty prescriptive. Get your three cards in a year and you keep your competitive handicap. A couple of rounds of 4 below will trigger an exceptional play reduction and handicaps can be reviewed in the off season, so let the Handicap Sec, drink in peace!!

[KyleM14]

I agree that sandbagging is a problem, but at the same time it seems like any time a lower handicap golfer loses out to a higher handicap golfer, people are calling out that they were sandbagging. The handicap system IS in place so that golfers of varying skill levels can compete with one another fairly. The higher handicap logging a win isnt necessarily unfair, is all I am saying.

[DavePelz4]

Kyle I agree with you in theory but when you see extenuating circumstances like not posting a score in 2 months and then shooting back to back rounds that were 14 and 15 strokes lower than your best round of the year you have to ask the question. Based upon the USGA probability table, this golfer beat 37,000-1 odds...TWICE. And it's ironic that the ONLY time he shot in the 80's was in a tournament.

[KyleM14]

Oh, I agree with you in that scenario, though I WILL make the point that those statistics are meaningless to the individual. But clearly there is an issue with the OP scenario. But for instance, I dont keep an official handicap, but by my math I am around a 14, and I've shot a 41 over nine holes, so to me, an 11 (as referenced above) shooting 40 over nine is not exactly shocking.

P.s. the variability in my scores, and the desire NOT to be offended by my character being called into question as a sandbagger, is precisely why I dont keep a handicap and compete, even though I am a highly competitive person. I don't mind losing, just means I should be better, but I will NOT be called a cheat because I play well and happen to beat someone "better" than me.

[jewofgolf]

[quote name='KyleM14' timestamp='1409531529' post='10042187']
Oh, I agree with you in that scenario, though I WILL make the point that those statistics are meaningless to the individual. But clearly there is an issue with the OP scenario. But for instance, I dont keep an official handicap, but by my math I am around a 14, and I've shot a 41 over nine holes, so to me, an 11 (as referenced above) shooting 40 over nine is not exactly shocking.

P.s. the variability in my scores, and the desire NOT to be offended by my character being called into question as a sandbagger, is precisely why I dont keep a handicap and compete, even though I am a highly competitive person. I don't mind losing, just means I should be better, but I will NOT be called a cheat because I play well and happen to beat someone "better" than me.
[/quote]

Are you calculating your 14 handicap in the same way GHIN does?

Btw it's 11 handicap for 9 holes whichis a 22 handicap. Shooting 40 is extraordinary.

[aliikane]

I think sandbagger is the politically correct term for that guy. I would call him a hustler. Haha.

[fanch]

I certainly feel your pain on two levels. I am fortunate to belong to a club that has the awareness to do something about obvious sandbagging. Recently a club tournament (member-guest) was won by a two obvious sandbaggers. They were outed and were forced to forfeit their winnings and they were then subsequently banned from any tournament for several years.

With that said, I participated in our annual invitational tournament earlier this month and won our flight. Not by a lot mind you. Played in the final "shootout" and played really well (alternate shot format) but ultimately lost. I began to then even hear rumblings about my game and sandbagging which is utter nonsense. Sometimes you play well and it just clicks. However, the example you gave is obvious and the golf committee should have done more.

[KyleM14]

[quote name='jewofgolf' timestamp='1409538575' post='10042821']
[quote name='KyleM14' timestamp='1409531529' post='10042187']
Oh, I agree with you in that scenario, though I WILL make the point that those statistics are meaningless to the individual. But clearly there is an issue with the OP scenario. But for instance, I dont keep an official handicap, but by my math I am around a 14, and I've shot a 41 over nine holes, so to me, an 11 (as referenced above) shooting 40 over nine is not exactly shocking.

P.s. the variability in my scores, and the desire NOT to be offended by my character being called into question as a sandbagger, is precisely why I dont keep a handicap and compete, even though I am a highly competitive person. I don't mind losing, just means I should be better, but I will NOT be called a cheat because I play well and happen to beat someone "better" than me.
[/quote]

Are you calculating your 14 handicap in the same way GHIN does?

Btw it's 11 handicap for 9 holes whichis a 22 handicap. Shooting 40 is extraordinary.
[/quote]

If you mean averaging the differentials, yes, I am. But its not really pertinent, because as I said, I don't play in competitions. If I did, I would obtain a USGA handicap and I would post scores accurately and accordingly. But all of that is beside the point.

You are correct, I misread that post. But if we're talking about two 9 hole rounds of golf, the evidence for the 22 being a sandbagger is anecdotal at best. Unless we totally discount the idea that a 22 handicap could have an exceptional day on the course.

[moose557]

I have never played tournament golf, but I can't imagine the guilt I would feel if I won knowing how badly I cheated and sandbagged to win. I couldn't live with myself but from reading this forum way too many people are able too.

[vbb]

[quote name='jewofgolf' timestamp='1409538575' post='10042821']
[quote name='KyleM14' timestamp='1409531529' post='10042187']
Oh, I agree with you in that scenario, though I WILL make the point that those statistics are meaningless to the individual. But clearly there is an issue with the OP scenario. But for instance, I dont keep an official handicap, but by my math I am around a 14, and I've shot a 41 over nine holes, so to me, an 11 (as referenced above) shooting 40 over nine is not exactly shocking.

P.s. the variability in my scores, and the desire NOT to be offended by my character being called into question as a sandbagger, is precisely why I dont keep a handicap and compete, even though I am a highly competitive person. I don't mind losing, just means I should be better, but I will NOT be called a cheat because I play well and happen to beat someone "better" than me.
[/quote]

Are you calculating your 14 handicap in the same way GHIN does?

Btw it's 11 handicap for 9 holes whichis a 22 handicap. Shooting 40 is extraordinary.
[/quote]I don't know if it is "extraordinary" for a 14 to shoot 40 for a nine. Good, yes, but not extraordinary. I'm definitely not a sandbagger (see the thread I just started about being that guy that posts EVERY round), and I'm a 14.9, yet I posted a 39 about 10 days ago and then backed it up with a 40 three days later. Different courses, but both were around 3300yds for a 9, so not short little pitch and putts. The very next nine after the 40, I posted a 50 on the same nine I'd just shot 39 on the week before. That's why I'm still a 15. I had a round where I made 29 putts a couple weeks back and then yesterday I had 41 putts on the same course. I think a lot of us mid-teen cappers are just streaky. I've got the game to play like a single digit at times, and I also threaten shooting over 100 at other times. Believe me, I'd rather shoot in the 30s every time, and if it means I never win another net event again, I'm fine with that!

[dan360]

[quote name='KyleM14' timestamp='1409548215' post='10043413']
[quote name='jewofgolf' timestamp='1409538575' post='10042821']
[quote name='KyleM14' timestamp='1409531529' post='10042187']
Oh, I agree with you in that scenario, though I WILL make the point that those statistics are meaningless to the individual. But clearly there is an issue with the OP scenario. But for instance, I dont keep an official handicap, but by my math I am around a 14, and I've shot a 41 over nine holes, so to me, an 11 (as referenced above) shooting 40 over nine is not exactly shocking.

P.s. the variability in my scores, and the desire NOT to be offended by my character being called into question as a sandbagger, is precisely why I dont keep a handicap and compete, even though I am a highly competitive person. I don't mind losing, just means I should be better, but I will NOT be called a cheat because I play well and happen to beat someone "better" than me.
[/quote]

Are you calculating your 14 handicap in the same way GHIN does?

Btw it's 11 handicap for 9 holes whichis a 22 handicap. Shooting 40 is extraordinary.
[/quote]

If you mean averaging the differentials, yes, I am. But its not really pertinent, because as I said, I don't play in competitions. If I did, I would obtain a USGA handicap and I would post scores accurately and accordingly. But all of that is beside the point.

You are correct, I misread that post. But if we're talking about two 9 hole rounds of golf, the evidence for the 22 being a sandbagger is anecdotal at best. Unless we totally discount the idea that a 22 handicap could have an exceptional day on the course.
[/quote]

You're arguing a point that doesn't need to be argued. You don't have a hdcp, you don't play in tournaments, but are worried about being labeled a sandbagger. You're probably not, so don't worry about it.

Let me explain simply, what a "sandbagger" is. It's a golfer who, consistently, posts lower gross scores in competition than they do in casual/practice rounds. By consistently, I mean nearly every...single...time....

It's not so much HOW they get the higher score in practice, but the fact that they post consistently high scores in practice/casual and consistently lower scores in competition. Now, in the OP's example one can see that the course slope and rating of the offending rounds is lower than the other posted scores. That could mean something, but in practice, when a guy shows up at a tournament and on a regular basis is blowing his hdcp out of the water, it rings a bell....or more like punches a bag.

[dan360]

[quote name='aliikane' timestamp='1409541304' post='10043027']
I think sandbagger is the politically correct term for that guy. I would call him a hustler. Haha.
[/quote]

I would call him the guy who gets the $3 flea market 2-iron axe chopped into his windshield, but that's the Irish in me.

[KyleM14]

[quote name='dan360' timestamp='1409604007' post='10045801']
[quote name='KyleM14' timestamp='1409548215' post='10043413']
[quote name='jewofgolf' timestamp='1409538575' post='10042821']
[quote name='KyleM14' timestamp='1409531529' post='10042187']
Oh, I agree with you in that scenario, though I WILL make the point that those statistics are meaningless to the individual. But clearly there is an issue with the OP scenario. But for instance, I dont keep an official handicap, but by my math I am around a 14, and I've shot a 41 over nine holes, so to me, an 11 (as referenced above) shooting 40 over nine is not exactly shocking.

P.s. the variability in my scores, and the desire NOT to be offended by my character being called into question as a sandbagger, is precisely why I dont keep a handicap and compete, even though I am a highly competitive person. I don't mind losing, just means I should be better, but I will NOT be called a cheat because I play well and happen to beat someone "better" than me.
[/quote]

Are you calculating your 14 handicap in the same way GHIN does?

Btw it's 11 handicap for 9 holes whichis a 22 handicap. Shooting 40 is extraordinary.
[/quote]

If you mean averaging the differentials, yes, I am. But its not really pertinent, because as I said, I don't play in competitions. If I did, I would obtain a USGA handicap and I would post scores accurately and accordingly. But all of that is beside the point.

You are correct, I misread that post. But if we're talking about two 9 hole rounds of golf, the evidence for the 22 being a sandbagger is anecdotal at best. Unless we totally discount the idea that a 22 handicap could have an exceptional day on the course.
[/quote]

You're arguing a point that doesn't need to be argued. You don't have a hdcp, you don't play in tournaments, but are worried about being labeled a sandbagger. You're probably not, so don't worry about it.

Let me explain simply, what a "sandbagger" is. It's a golfer who, consistently, posts lower gross scores in competition than they do in casual/practice rounds. By consistently, I mean nearly every...single...time....

It's not so much HOW they get the higher score in practice, but the fact that they post consistently high scores in practice/casual and consistently lower scores in competition. Now, in the OP's example one can see that the course slope and rating of the offending rounds is lower than the other posted scores. That could mean something, but in practice, when a guy shows up at a tournament and on a regular basis is blowing his hdcp out of the water, it rings a bell....or more like punches a bag.
[/quote]

I know what a sandbagger is, and I didn't say I was worried about being called one. I said that peoples propensity to call anyone who DOES beat them a sandbagger is why I DON'T play in tournaments, despite my competitive nature.

The only point I'm arguing is that there is often two sides to every story, and not everything is always what it seems at first glance.

For what it's worth, I also said I agree with the OP about that situation. I am just offering a counterpoint.

[GaHack1]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1409371185' post='10034741']
One year ago I played in the Naperville city senior championship with approximately 150 players. It was my first true competitive event in 30+ years. The person who won the net was a 14 handicap who had posted 85 as his lowest round in a year. In the 2 day event he shot -24 net with [size=5][b]gross[/b][/size] rounds of 75-73.

This past Wednesday and Thursday was the 2014 city senior championship. Here are the last 2 years of scores posted by the person who won. This is directly cut and pasted from the CDGA (Chicago District Golf Association). Please note that the [b]only two rounds he shot in the 80's [/b]were in tournaments.

Scoring Record Handicap History
MM/YY Score Type Rating Slope Diff
6/14 98 T 72.2 131 22.3
6/14 97 H 69.8 126 24.4
6/14 99 H 71.1 129 24.4
6/14 101 T 72.1 138 23.7
6/14 98 H 71.1 129 23.6
6/14 105 T 71.6 137 27.5
6/14 96 H 71.1 129 21.8
6/14 100 H 71.1 129 25.3
5/14 97 H 71.1 129 22.7
5/14 97 H 71.1 129 22.7
5/14 95 H 71.1 129 20.9
5/14 98 H 71.1 129 23.6
8/13 87 T 68.6 120 17.3
8/13 84 T 68.3 122 14.5
6/13 91 H 68.3 122 21
6/13 94 H 71.1 129 20.1
6/13 95 H 71.1 129 20.9
6/13 94 H 71.1 129 20.1
6/13 96 H 71.1 129 21.8
6/13 95 H 71.1 129 20.9

This is August...and he hasn't posted a score since June. Seriously. You already know where this is going...the guy who posted 2 rounds in the 80's in 2 years shot gross 80-81 with a net score of -17. For entertainment purposes, the guy who won last year who is now a 12, shot a horrifically bad -13. Oh that sucks...how embarrassing.

When or how does this madness stop? I talked to the committee and presented facts...including the fact that this year's field was almost 50% less than last year because of the sandbagging. To say it's fallen upon non-caring ears would be an understatement. I threw out some great suggestions from our site including using tournament rounds only, using a percentage of handicap, etc.

Any suggestions from people who play in these kinds of events and how it's dealt with?
[/quote]

I think it would be proper to notify the handicap chairman of the club that this guy belongs to. They are obviously not doing a very good job of peer review on their players. His clubs handicap committee can and should reduce his handicap. That is how sandbaggers should be dealt with.

One of the big problems I see is the USGA allowing virtual clubs to issue handicaps.. don't see much peer review going on when the people in the virtual club never see each other.

[360jive]

Yeah I have a match against an 18 who shot "the best rounds of his life" in the two matches before. 87 and 80

[Sean2]

[quote name='moose557' timestamp='1409571748' post='10043887']
I have never played tournament golf, but I can't imagine the guilt I would feel if I won knowing how badly I cheated and sandbagged to win. I couldn't live with myself but from reading this forum way too many people are able too.
[/quote]

That's what I don't get. What has the SB really won? He didn't win through dedication and hard work, he won by cheating. What satisfaction can there be in that?

[Bushwood Country Club]

[quote name='sharkiesj' timestamp='1409430514' post='10037093']
I've said this before and I'll say it again. I always get hell for it but its just how I feel.

There's more honor to finish last in gross than it is to win a net flight.

The most despised people at country clubs all over America are the net flight winners. Unbeknownst to them of course.... They walk around thinking people really look up to them for their "talent".
[/quote]

You are off base here, based on my experience playing in over 100 net tournaments. We all hat sandbag gets, but to suggest there is no pride in a net championship is not commonly accepted.

[jpalermo]

I wont play net events. I got bagged by a cheater once and we almost fought on the 17th green because I gave him a 15 footer for the win.

[Bushwood Country Club]

[quote name='360jive' timestamp='1409611400' post='10046431']
Yeah I have a match against an 18 who shot "the best rounds of his life" in the two matches before. 87 and 80
[/quote]not sure what your complaint is - he shot an 87 ( +15) and an 80 (+8). Is an 18 capable of shooting an 80 once ? Sure... I do t think this is sandbagging

[Sean2]

We had a 17 shoot three rounds in the 70's...

[dan360]

[quote name='KyleM14' timestamp='1409608013' post='10046125']
[quote name='dan360' timestamp='1409604007' post='10045801']
[quote name='KyleM14' timestamp='1409548215' post='10043413']
[quote name='jewofgolf' timestamp='1409538575' post='10042821']
[quote name='KyleM14' timestamp='1409531529' post='10042187']
Oh, I agree with you in that scenario, though I WILL make the point that those statistics are meaningless to the individual. But clearly there is an issue with the OP scenario. But for instance, I dont keep an official handicap, but by my math I am around a 14, and I've shot a 41 over nine holes, so to me, an 11 (as referenced above) shooting 40 over nine is not exactly shocking.

P.s. the variability in my scores, and the desire NOT to be offended by my character being called into question as a sandbagger, is precisely why I dont keep a handicap and compete, even though I am a highly competitive person. I don't mind losing, just means I should be better, but I will NOT be called a cheat because I play well and happen to beat someone "better" than me.
[/quote]

Are you calculating your 14 handicap in the same way GHIN does?

Btw it's 11 handicap for 9 holes whichis a 22 handicap. Shooting 40 is extraordinary.
[/quote]

If you mean averaging the differentials, yes, I am. But its not really pertinent, because as I said, I don't play in competitions. If I did, I would obtain a USGA handicap and I would post scores accurately and accordingly. But all of that is beside the point.

You are correct, I misread that post. But if we're talking about two 9 hole rounds of golf, the evidence for the 22 being a sandbagger is anecdotal at best. Unless we totally discount the idea that a 22 handicap could have an exceptional day on the course.
[/quote]

You're arguing a point that doesn't need to be argued. You don't have a hdcp, you don't play in tournaments, but are worried about being labeled a sandbagger. You're probably not, so don't worry about it.

Let me explain simply, what a "sandbagger" is. It's a golfer who, consistently, posts lower gross scores in competition than they do in casual/practice rounds. By consistently, I mean nearly every...single...time....

It's not so much HOW they get the higher score in practice, but the fact that they post consistently high scores in practice/casual and consistently lower scores in competition. Now, in the OP's example one can see that the course slope and rating of the offending rounds is lower than the other posted scores. That could mean something, but in practice, when a guy shows up at a tournament and on a regular basis is blowing his hdcp out of the water, it rings a bell....or more like punches a bag.
[/quote]

I know what a sandbagger is, and I didn't say I was worried about being called one. I said that peoples propensity to call anyone who DOES beat them a sandbagger is why I DON'T play in tournaments, despite my competitive nature.

The only point I'm arguing is that there is often two sides to every story, and not everything is always what it seems at first glance.

For what it's worth, I also said I agree with the OP about that situation. I am just offering a counterpoint.
[/quote]

You've had a bad experience then with people who were bitter about losing if you've been chased away from tournaments that you could win out of fear of harrassment. If you win honestly, that's cool.

[DavePelz4]

So the guy who won the tournament with scores of 80 and 81 posted a round today. It was a 93. Clearly his hot streak didn't carry forward or he's just a person who really dials his game up for tournaments.

 

I sent a note to the CDGA to see if they could use this as his photo...

 

[dan360]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1409611603' post='10046447']
[quote name='moose557' timestamp='1409571748' post='10043887']
I have never played tournament golf, but I can't imagine the guilt I would feel if I won knowing how badly I cheated and sandbagged to win. I couldn't live with myself but from reading this forum way too many people are able too.
[/quote]

That's what I don't get. What has the SB really won? He didn't win through dedication and hard work, he won by cheating. What satisfaction can there be in that?
[/quote]

There are many people in this world who value a $40 pro shop credit over being honest and moral.

[dan360]

I wonder why Sawgrass hasn't posted in this thread yet? Isn't he the standard bearer for counting every stroke? I wonder how he feels about sandbaggers?

[WilCox]

It always amazes me when someone wins an event posting rounds 10-12 strokes below their index and it goes unquestioned. I wonder if they're hustlers or just people in dire need of having their egos massaged.

[Bingo1976]

[quote name='sharkiesj' timestamp='1409430514' post='10037093']
I've said this before and I'll say it again. I always get hell for it but its just how I feel.

There's more honor to finish last in gross than it is to win a net flight.

The most despised people at country clubs all over America are the net flight winners. Unbeknownst to them of course.... They walk around thinking people really look up to them for their "talent".
[/quote]

They don't even register on my interest - if you arent good enough to get into the gross flights, then whatever you hack around in is of no relevance to the people who posess a modicum of talent and can play straight up. I'd rather finish 15th gross than first net.

[wadesworld]

One of the big problems with the handicap system is that so few people know the rules of handicaps, or misunderstand them, and can then either unintentionally sandbag, or intentionally.

For example, many people believe that if you break a single rule of golf, the round cannot count for handicap purposes. So if the person doesn't want the round to count, he simply picks up a gimme putt, and now not only does he feel justified in not turning the round in, but in fact, feels like he's the flag bearer for integrity because he didn't turn in a round where a rule was broken (never mind the fact he didn't penalize himself).

Similarly, most people believe if you don't finish a round, you can't turn in a score.

As others have said, it's not an easy problem to solve in the US because of the large number of people who play only on public courses. Although one has to be a member of a "club" (traditional, local or even online) to establish a handicap, the reality is, in anything other than a country-club environment, you're not likely to get called out by the handicap chairman.

So it falls on tournament directors to have some backbone and disqualify obvious cheaters. In a single-round event, it's hard to DQ someone who shots 10 or even 15 shots below their normal. As a 15-handicap I once shot a legit 79 (including a hole-in-one). I've shot a number of 81's, 82's and 83's. But I also have the 94's, 98's and 100's which keep me hovering around 15. However, in a multi-round event, multiple days of a high-handicapper shooting in the 70's or even low-80's gross should likely be grounds for immediate disqualification.

[Veng]

OP: There's a reason I'll never play a handicapped event with people I don't know and trust. Sadly that means I won't play in a lot of events, but then again, if the end result is I'd have to cheat like mad to win, why bother?

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1409456844' post='10038703']
[quote name='lumberman2462' timestamp='1409409475' post='10035907']
I played in a tournament last year that had a gross and net division. Winning score on net was ridiculous....an 18 handicapper shot 76 gross.
[/quote]

Why ridiculous?

When my handicap was 27 (21 years ago) I once played 10 over par and even hit one ball OB. That was my best gross score for next 5 years. It just happened.

Then I once played in a competition in the same group with the net winner. He scored 14 under his handicap and I know he was as astonished as the rest of us. It just happened.

Single rounds can be played surprisingly well but playing two consecutive rounds way below your expected score is suspicios.
[/quote]
Great rounds happen no doubt, but you don't have those rounds back to back. Except if your Rory Mcilroy of course.