What if most of what you know about irons is wrong?

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='TheLarch' timestamp='1430270648' post='11462361']
If most of what I know about irons is wrong it would just mean I know as much about irons as I know about women.
[/quote]This is really sad though I tell you Gals/Guys pretty much everything else so here goes....

I'm pretty sure that I know more about irons than I do Women

WTF?!?

Have a nice evening/day Kathy Marie & Gents

My Best,
Richard

[Nspiel58]

Thanks everybody for the responses to my post. Really appreciate all the critical thinking out there, especially the woman/golf club comparison. Lol!

[Forged4ever]

1952.......

1987.......

2014.......

What goes around comes around

Fairways & Greens My Friends,
Richard

[Fellaheen51]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1430343293' post='11468229']
I have a theory about the new Hogan company. Terry Koehler is one of the guys who launched the whole "blades are game improvement clubs" meme on the internet. I'm sure he had no idea how the idea would be received when he first blogged about it - but it touched a nerve and flared up all across the net. It just seems to have become one of those persuasive and pervasive ideas that people have flocked to. I think seeing the reception and growth of that idea may be what persuaded TK that there was a fresh market for blades bearing the Hogan name - marketed to ordinary golfers, and maybe side-stepping the usual tour endorsement marketing budget.

I think that line of thinking feeds into the shonky hammer analogy, the 16-capper shot-shapers and like marketing. None of which makes the clubs themselves rubbish, but everyone has a marketing line and this seems to be Koehler's.

FWIW - yeah, I play blades. Old-ish Hogans at that. Not because I think they improve my swing, but because I like them, they fit me, and I think the benefits of cavity-backs are somewhat exaggerated at a recreational level of play.
[/quote]

Please don't think I'm trying to parse out of context B-S. That is not my intent. Just a couple of items in your commentary struck a cord with me.

1) How many golfers, outside of ones such as ourselves that spend to much time on the internets discussing such matters, have ever heard of the "Blades as GI" meme? If I was to query every golfer in my league on this, I would submit that not one would be aware of it nor understand the argument. Most likely would receive just puzzled looks (at best).

2) With this in mind, why would the Hogan company build a marketing strategy based on a concept that the vast majority of the golfing populace doesn't understand, let alone accept? "Ordinary golfers" are not going to try, let alone buy these expensive irons because someone is telling them that this is the new (old) way to improve your game. Especially when they see nary a pro playing them on T.V Sundays. Seems a rather large marketing stretch.

3) How much cache does the Hogan brand name have left? Or has it become this nostalgic relic alongside the names of MacGregor, Spalding, Maxfli, Lynx, etc. etc. Once valued as a purveyor of quality equipment., now just a musty name from the past for the "ordinary golfer" that wants the latest and greatest wiz-bang from the "usual suspects".

4) Every business must have a marketing plan. A little advertising so to speak. Otherwise a product launch will be sluggish at best or doomed for failure. It just seems as though a significant "leap of faith" (not to mentioned significant $) is required by the consumer that is contrary to the mainstream of what a golf iron should be to sell many.

And a FWIW, I am playing a set of '99 Hogan Apex blades this spring. I love them, do not find them excessively difficult to hit, and of the belief that I'm becoming a better ball striker by playing them. I do not play to a 9 hdcp., nor do I have a 95+ swing speed, or any other qualifiers that says I should not be playing blades. When I bring out the i20's these days, they feel dead and ponderous in comparison.

[Shambles]

[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1430313544' post='11464697']
[quote name='Shambles' timestamp='1430274833' post='11462773']. Nothing really new in the ad involved other than their V sole technology and even then it would not surprise me too much if someone came out with an example from way back.


Shambles
[/quote]

I played Zero Tolerance Z Wedges back in 2002-2003 and they had this exact same sole. This was before Eidolon, Scor and maybe even Reid Lockhart. So you are right it is not new or unique.
[/quote]

Wow!

Make a wish and it's granted !!!





Shambles

[Bad9]

[quote name='Shambles' timestamp='1430357013' post='11469703']
[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1430313544' post='11464697']
[quote name='Shambles' timestamp='1430274833' post='11462773']. Nothing really new in the ad involved other than their V sole technology and even then it would not surprise me too much if someone came out with an example from way back.


Shambles
[/quote]

I played Zero Tolerance Z Wedges back in 2002-2003 and they had this exact same sole. This was before Eidolon, Scor and maybe even Reid Lockhart. So you are right it is not new or unique.
[/quote]

Wow!

Make a wish and it's granted !!!





Shambles
[/quote]

You're welcome. That 58° wedge is the best lob wedge I ever played.

[Shambles]

[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1430351885' post='11469089']
1952.......

1987.......

2014.......

What goes around comes around

Fairways & Greens My Friends,
Richard
[/quote]

Thanks for the illustrative pictures Richard. Very kind of you to take the trouble to find and post the repetitive designs.



Shambles

[gopherguts]

[quote name='nova6868' timestamp='1430312213' post='11464527']
I don't know if I really like their analogy, but the truth is that iron "tech" hasn't really changed so much that playing SGI irons definitively lowers your score.
[/quote]

Possibly because no one has the time nor the inclination to experiment and document such things ?

Someone plays blades all their life and then tries and loves and plays better (i.e. scores better) with GIs and you think they're going to "waste" their time and their money to go back and forth between the 2 types to "prove" something he already knows - that he he scores better with GI's.

That's right, they won't.

I grew up playing blades. When the CBs first came around I tried 'em, played MUCH better with 'em, and never looked back.

To this day I try all sorts of clubs in the stores' simulators. I love the feel of some blades and hate the feel of some others. Same thing goes for GIs.

Ive even tried some of the "Player's CBs" like the X-forged and the MP-60s. Certainly more forgiving than blades but not nearly as forgiving as GIs,,,,,,,,,, and yes, I do realize I give up some ability to move the ball right or left at will - but I can live with that.

BUT, the consistency of quality(?) hits and near misses results in a far better dispersion, distance and direction-wise with the GIs it's barely worth discussing.

Just one guy's experiences.

[gopherguts]

[quote name='scomac2002' timestamp='1430314097' post='11464769']
[quote name='nova6868' timestamp='1430312213' post='11464527']
Woods... Yes. Who still plays persimmons or even 250cc drivers? The new ones are definitely better.
[/quote]

AS far as being definitely better for the average weekend hack, that's almost impossible to quantify beyond the anecdotal evidence of testamonials, computer test results and fitting results. Theoretically new drivers should be better, but once you factor in the negative effects of certain design parameters that make it more difficult to make center contact -- extreme light weight and extreme shaft length -- the advantages can be quickly lost on those with less than consistently repeatable swings.
[/quote]

Just one question.

Are you arguing that today's drivers are NOT miles better, OK, make that straighter and more consistent, than the older ones of say 25 years (and more) ago ?

[oldschoolrocker]

Like socialism, the blade versus GI debate is a creeping vine, weaving its tangled way even into our little corner of the web.
As great debates go, ours pales in comparison to "the chicken, or the egg," but, my spin, either can do the intended task, when properly fitted.

[Texsport]

[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1430335449' post='11467349']
[quote name='Texsport' timestamp='1430333975' post='11467173']
[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1430313544' post='11464697']
[quote name='Shambles' timestamp='1430274833' post='11462773']. Nothing really new in the ad involved other than their V sole technology and even then it would not surprise me too much if someone came out with an example from way back.


Shambles
[/quote]

I played Zero Tolerance Z Wedges back in 2002-2003 and they had this exact same sole. This was before Eidolon, Scor and maybe even Reid Lockhart. So you are right it is not new or unique.
[/quote]



Big misconception raging here!

The grind isn't like a Tour Striker, or some gimmick club - it's much more subtle than that.

I've hit the irons and they're sweet.

Texsport
[/quote]

What misconception? I never mentioned the Tour Striker. The sole looks just like the Scor and the Eidolon (which I have seen in person and hit) which is pretty much exactly the same as the Z Wedge I mentioned. The sole grind is not new or unique nor did I say it was a gimmick. Seems to me you are the one with raging misconceptions.
[/quote]

I wasn't referring to your comments, but to the previous edited out idea that these irons would shred balls.

However, opinions offered by those who haven't actually hit the clubs are worthless speculation, and often unbelievably negative on this website. I do believe that the very experienced engineers know significantly more about golf club design than amateur critics who have never seen or tried the product.



Texsport

[scomac2002]

[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1430365877' post='11470565']
[quote name='scomac2002' timestamp='1430314097' post='11464769']
[quote name='nova6868' timestamp='1430312213' post='11464527']
Woods... Yes. Who still plays persimmons or even 250cc drivers? The new ones are definitely better.
[/quote]

AS far as being definitely better for the average weekend hack, that's almost impossible to quantify beyond the anecdotal evidence of testamonials, computer test results and fitting results. Theoretically new drivers should be better, but once you factor in the negative effects of certain design parameters that make it more difficult to make center contact -- extreme light weight and extreme shaft length -- the advantages can be quickly lost on those with less than consistently repeatable swings.
[/quote]

Just one question.

Are you arguing that today's drivers are NOT miles better, OK, make that straighter and more consistent, than the older ones of say 25 years (and more) ago ?
[/quote]

More like being the devil's advocate and asking the question. There's lots of anecdotal evidence to support the advantages of modern drivers. I'm simply looking for a comparison of driving stats that indicate the gains are about more than distance. The PGA data that I've seen seems to indicate that we've got a nice incremental gain in distance up until about 10 years ago when the engineering limits came into force. Within that data, I don't recall a corresponding improvement in accuracy, but I could be mistaken.

I'm of the mind that in recent years, some of the design parameters have become self-defeating. IOW whatever gain you get is off-set by some loss in consistency particularly for the average handicap player. That type of approach can pad driving stats at the pro level, but does no favours in the amateur game. I have to wonder if the preponderance of wild misses that are showing up at any PGA Tour event you watch has something to do with pushing the limit of what an individual can control, even the very best at their craft.

[birly-shirly]

[quote name='Fellaheen51' timestamp='1430355041' post='11469469']
[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1430343293' post='11468229']
I have a theory about the new Hogan company. Terry Koehler is one of the guys who launched the whole "blades are game improvement clubs" meme on the internet. I'm sure he had no idea how the idea would be received when he first blogged about it - but it touched a nerve and flared up all across the net. It just seems to have become one of those persuasive and pervasive ideas that people have flocked to. I think seeing the reception and growth of that idea may be what persuaded TK that there was a fresh market for blades bearing the Hogan name - marketed to ordinary golfers, and maybe side-stepping the usual tour endorsement marketing budget.

I think that line of thinking feeds into the shonky hammer analogy, the 16-capper shot-shapers and like marketing. None of which makes the clubs themselves rubbish, but everyone has a marketing line and this seems to be Koehler's.

FWIW - yeah, I play blades. Old-ish Hogans at that. Not because I think they improve my swing, but because I like them, they fit me, and I think the benefits of cavity-backs are somewhat exaggerated at a recreational level of play.
[/quote]

Please don't think I'm trying to parse out of context B-S. That is not my intent. Just a couple of items in your commentary struck a cord with me.

1) How many golfers, outside of ones such as ourselves that spend to much time on the internets discussing such matters, have ever heard of the "Blades as GI" meme? If I was to query every golfer in my league on this, I would submit that not one would be aware of it nor understand the argument. Most likely would receive just puzzled looks (at best).

2) With this in mind, why would the Hogan company build a marketing strategy based on a concept that the vast majority of the golfing populace doesn't understand, let alone accept? "Ordinary golfers" are not going to try, let alone buy these expensive irons because someone is telling them that this is the new (old) way to improve your game. Especially when they see nary a pro playing them on T.V Sundays. Seems a rather large marketing stretch.

3) How much cache does the Hogan brand name have left? Or has it become this nostalgic relic alongside the names of MacGregor, Spalding, Maxfli, Lynx, etc. etc. Once valued as a purveyor of quality equipment., now just a musty name from the past for the "ordinary golfer" that wants the latest and greatest wiz-bang from the "usual suspects".

4) Every business must have a marketing plan. A little advertising so to speak. Otherwise a product launch will be sluggish at best or doomed for failure. It just seems as though a significant "leap of faith" (not to mentioned significant $) is required by the consumer that is contrary to the mainstream of what a golf iron should be to sell many.

And a FWIW, I am playing a set of '99 Hogan Apex blades this spring. I love them, do not find them excessively difficult to hit, and of the belief that I'm becoming a better ball striker by playing them. I do not play to a 9 hdcp., nor do I have a 95+ swing speed, or any other qualifiers that says I should not be playing blades. When I bring out the i20's these days, they feel dead and ponderous in comparison.
[/quote]

Fella - those are completely fair points.

In particular, I agree that every (successful) business should have a marketing plan. I'm just saying that it's probably easier to develop a distinctive marketing plan than it is to develop genuinely distinctive products, and that lots of successful marketing plans are less than robustly tethered to dull and verifiable facts. Going by the online response to the new clubs, I would say there's a danger of some people who want to like the product being turned off by some of the marketing claims. But whether the current strategy brings more people in than it repels, I'm in no position to judge.

However, as a very casual, arms'-length observation, it looks to me as though the internet has been instrumental in creating demand for things like tour issue product, Miura, Trackman, Scratch and even mainstream wedge grinds. I think you could probably make a decent argument that your average league player won't have heard of any of those either (Trackman possibly excepted) - but they seem to have carved out distinctive niches and in my opinion, their marketing profile has been driven via our sort of geeky internet discussion and buzz.

When Terry Koehler blogged about blades being more accurate than cavity backs, I think he said himself that it generated more feedback and response than anything else he'd ever written. I'm not saying the idea went exactly viral in the same sense as cats impersonating Elvis, but I think there's a clue there as to what in TK's immediate experience may have given him the encouragement that this could run successfully.

As regards the Hogan connection, I know exactly what you mean. There's no intellectual property would have prevented Eidolon or Score from releasing a set of irons to that design - but someone thinks that it must be worth paying to use the Hogan name. Again, I think that ties in with a conviction that people want to, and can be persuaded to play a much more traditional style of iron than most OEMs choose to offer.

I do hope that there is enough demand represented by this sort of internet gossip to sustain a company making high quality, niche-appeal product.

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='Shambles' timestamp='1430358459' post='11469871']
[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1430351885' post='11469089']
1952.......

1987.......

2014.......

What goes around comes around

Fairways & Greens My Friends,
Richard
[/quote]

Thanks for the illustrative pictures Richard. Very kind of you to take the trouble to find and post the repetitive designs.



Shambles
[/quote]Thanks Much, however it's no trouble Bro, as one thing I've got now is time, lol

Have a great day & Better season my Friend

Golfingly Yours,
Richard

[Forged4ever]

The V-Sole Design has been the foundational staple of Edolon, SCOR(These eplaced my Mizzy wedges, with Mizzy wedges being in my bag from 1998-2012-> SCORs 43°, 47°, 51°, 55° & 59°) & the now Ben Hogan line of irons-

Like most things in life, they won't be everyone's cup of tea-

Fairways & Greens My Friends,
Richard


Later Ed: 04/30/15, 12:08pm-> Apologies for these pics being so friggin large I post on my tele & don't know how to edit the size of picture- Thanks, RP II

[rex235]

[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1430351885' post='11469089']
1952.......

1987.......

2014.......

What goes around comes around

Fairways & Greens My Friends,
Richard
[/quote]

Richard-

..unless you're left handed.

The new Ben Hogan irons still RH Only?
.

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='rex235' timestamp='1430409605' post='11473449']
[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1430351885' post='11469089']
1952.......

1987.......

2014.......

What goes around comes around

Fairways & Greens My Friends,
Richard
[/quote]

Richard-

..unless you're left handed.

The new Ben Hogan irons still RH Only?
.
[/quote]Hey Rex, I hope that the season's goin well for Ya

Short answer, no, no lefty irons at this time, BUT......

This doesn't help you or any of the South Paws out there now, however they are on the board and are a planned release.

Terry would not commit to a time frame, and this is totally MY opinion, however I would say that you're looking at 12-18 months from now, provided everything goes as forecasted with the Ben Hogan line.

Apologies that I didn't have a better answer-

Stay well my Friend & have a Great Season

My Best,
Richard

[Kathy Marie]

[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1430350828' post='11469007']
[quote name='TheLarch' timestamp='1430270648' post='11462361']
If most of what I know about irons is wrong it would just mean I know as much about irons as I know about women.
[/quote]This is really sad though I tell you Gals/Guys pretty much everything else so here goes....
I'm pretty sure that I know more about irons than I do Women
[/quote]


Let me get this straight: comparing Women to IRONS?!?




Well, how about consider it Nature's Gift to you, Gentlemen. Because we truly *don't* (most of us) do it on purpose. It's just our nature to keep you forever panting....
















































Hence, Forever Young.

Vive la différence,

[rex235]

[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1430411569' post='11473687']
[quote name='rex235' timestamp='1430409605' post='11473449']
[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1430351885' post='11469089']
1952.......

1987.......

2014.......

What goes around comes around

Fairways & Greens My Friends,
Richard
[/quote]

Richard-

..unless you're left handed.

The new Ben Hogan irons still RH Only?
.
[/quote]Hey Rex, I hope that the season's goin well for Ya

Short answer, no, no lefty irons at this time, BUT......

This doesn't help you or any of the South Paws out there now, they are on the board and are a planned release.

Terry would not commit to a time frame, and this is totally MY opinion, however I would say that you're looking at 12-18 months from now, provided everything goes as forecasted with the Ben Hogan line.

Apologies that I didn't have a better answer-

Stay well my Friend & have a Great Season

My Best,
Richard
[/quote]

Richard-

Already have 3 Hogan sets...am good.

We had this conversation, but for those new to the forum.

It took Ben Hogan 5 years to offer a LH Precision model- then another 10 years before the Ben Hogan 1+ irons.

Mizuno did make LH TN-87s.. Have a LH TN-87 2 iron, and posted the photo in another thread along with some other rare LH irons.

The TaylorMade Tour Preferred MB iron model you show will remain RH Only.

"Just get the CBs"

[HoganApexBlades]

[quote name='Kathy Marie' timestamp='1430413652' post='11473977']
[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1430350828' post='11469007']
[quote name='TheLarch' timestamp='1430270648' post='11462361']
If most of what I know about irons is wrong it would just mean I know as much about irons as I know about women.
[/quote]This is really sad though I tell you Gals/Guys pretty much everything else so here goes....
I'm pretty sure that I know more about irons than I do Women
[/quote]


Let me get this straight: comparing Women to IRONS?!?




Well, how about consider it Nature's Gift to you, Gentlemen. Because we truly *don't* (most of us) do it on purpose. It's just our nature to keep you forever panting....
















































Hence, Forever Young.

Vive la différence,


[/quote]

KM,

You truly hit the nail with the correct side of the hammer on this post!!!

HAB

[HoganApexBlades]

[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1430408436' post='11473249']
The V-Sole Design has been the foundational staple of Edolon, SCOR(These replaced my Mizzy wedges, with Mizzy wedges being in my bag from 1998-2012-> 43°, 47°, 51°, 55° & 59°) & the now Ben Hogan line of irons-

Like most things in life, they won't be everyone's cup of tea-

Fairways & Greens My Friends,
Richard


Later Ed: 04/30/15, 12:08pm-> Apologies for these pics being so friggin large I post on my tele & don't know how to edit the size of picture- Thanks, RP II
[/quote]

Richard, I for one say THANK YOU for posting those UBER-LARGE photos. I had to take my readers off before that 57* wedge nearly smacked me upside the head!

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='Kathy Marie' timestamp='1430413652' post='11473977']
[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1430350828' post='11469007']
[quote name='TheLarch' timestamp='1430270648' post='11462361']
If most of what I know about irons is wrong it would just mean I know as much about irons as I know about women.
[/quote]This is really sad though I tell you Gals/Guys pretty much everything else so here goes....
I'm pretty sure that I know more about irons than I do Women
[/quote]


Let me get this straight: comparing Women to IRONS?!?




Well, how about consider it Nature's Gift to you, Gentlemen. Because we truly *don't* (most of us) do it on purpose. It's just our nature to keep you forever panting....
















































Hence, Forever Young.

Vive la différence,


[/quote]THAT'S the problem....

The fact that that comparison even enters my mind should tell you that I've got a few outstanding issues

Madison saw that and she asked, "WTF?"

Seriously, in 11 years I can count on less than one hand the number of times that she's sworn, and in all of the golf that we've played together, never-

I seem to have that effect on Ladies

I gotta hook up with another shrink and sooner rather than later-

I'm ok around guys and Madison did say that I'm one of the more sensitive guys that she knows, however, sometimes I get all discombobulated regarding Ladies -

My last shrink told me that "discombobulated" was not an appropriate diagnosis.

What a putz

I hope that the Blades are treating you right Kathy Marie, because there is no one more deserving of their kindness

Fairways & Greens My Friend,
Richard

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='rex235' timestamp='1430415402' post='11474153']
[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1430411569' post='11473687']
[quote name='rex235' timestamp='1430409605' post='11473449']
[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1430351885' post='11469089']
1952.......

1987.......

2014.......

What goes around comes around

Fairways & Greens My Friends,
Richard
[/quote]

Richard-

..unless you're left handed.

The new Ben Hogan irons still RH Only?
.
[/quote]Hey Rex, I hope that the season's goin well for Ya

Short answer, no, no lefty irons at this time, BUT......

This doesn't help you or any of the South Paws out there now, they are on the board and are a planned release.

Terry would not commit to a time frame, and this is totally MY opinion, however I would say that you're looking at 12-18 months from now, provided everything goes as forecasted with the Ben Hogan line.

Apologies that I didn't have a better answer-

Stay well my Friend & have a Great Season

My Best,
Richard
[/quote]

Richard-

Already have 3 Hogan sets...am good.

We had this conversation, but for those new to the forum.
[/quote]Apologies Ken, however due to meds, therapy and I'm guessin the brain cells that I took out in my 20's & 30's, I can't remember what I had for dinner on Monday, so sorry that I repeated myself.

WoW, the rambling I could deal with-

Rambling, Repeating & Loss of Memory?

Ladies & Irons are the least of my problems

I should thank the Big Guy that I'm right handed or I'd REALLY be screwed!!

Have a great season My Friend

Golfingly Yours,
Richard

[stevemcgee99]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1430399599' post='11472037']Again, I think that ties in with a conviction that people want to, and can be persuaded to play a much more traditional style of iron than most OEMs choose to offer.[/quote]
Another indicator that there is growing interest in more traditional style for golf is the Nike anti-tradition ad campaign.

[quote name='scomac2002' timestamp='1430395501' post='11471589']
I'm of the mind that in recent years, some of the design parameters have become self-defeating. IOW whatever gain you get is off-set by some loss in consistency particularly for the average handicap player. That type of approach can pad driving stats at the pro level, but does no favours in the amateur game. I have to wonder if [b] the preponderance of wild misses that are showing up at any PGA Tour event you watch [/b] has something to do with pushing the limit of what an individual can control, even the very best at their craft.
[/quote]

I think it's because the players aren't skilled in the way they used to be. Technique is different, too, not just the equipment.

[Shambles]

[quote name='stevemcgee99' timestamp='1430425090' post='11475405']
[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1430399599' post='11472037']Again, I think that ties in with a conviction that people want to, and can be persuaded to play a much more traditional style of iron than most OEMs choose to offer.[/quote]
Another indicator that there is growing interest in more traditional style for golf is the Nike tradition ad campaign.

[quote name='scomac2002' timestamp='1430395501' post='11471589']
I'm of the mind that in recent years, some of the design parameters have become self-defeating. IOW whatever gain you get is off-set by some loss in consistency particularly for the average handicap player. That type of approach can pad driving stats at the pro level, but does no favours in the amateur game. I have to wonder if [b] the preponderance of wild misses that are showing up at any PGA Tour event you watch [/b] has something to do with pushing the limit of what an individual can control, even the very best at their craft.
[/quote]

I think it's because the players aren't skilled in the way they used to be. Technique is different, too, not just the equipment.
[/quote]

Conditions of the fairways have changed but players in general are just as capable, probably more so, than in the past. Golf knowledge is so much more accessible today thanks to the internet and discussion boards like this. Only 30 to 50 years ago we were mired in the limitations of print and scheduled broadcast media and the cost thereof. The struggle for important data is so very much easier to deal with now than in the past. Players today are much better educated as to the mechanics and nuances of the game but are no longer as subject to the wayward pebble in the fairway that would send a ball in unplanned directions.

These days, when we miss we are not as able to blame the fairway and we miss with much better equipment that we can choose for their specific characteristics. We can now miss more expertly.



Shambles

[stevemcgee99]

I was talking about the pros. They get lower scores than in the past, but don't hit shots like they did in the past.

Apparently, the average golfer's score hasn't changed much at all over the years.

[bullrambler]

[quote name='BIG STU' timestamp='1430344727' post='11468399']
[quote name='bullrambler' timestamp='1430343986' post='11468307']
Find an older PW or SW that has a dynamic shaft and a swing weight of about E. Take it to the course and hit some balls out of the rough. Man does a club like that ever get through the rough with ease. I stick with older lofts and heavier weighted irons - which are weaker then the newer stuff and have no problem pounding the "hammers" into the back of the ball. I loose very little distance and keep a better tempo with that kind of set-up. In my way of thinking the new Hogan design (while nice) when compared to the Ram muscle back - I favor the Rams.

On another note - With more modern heads,...

[/quote]I will throw one more question in the equation. What is the gram weight of the naked head? You know different shafts will always react differently with different head weights and you will get different swing weights with different shafts and even grips. It can be tricky but it sounds like that 6 iron and shaft combo works good for you. I have a swing weight machine I have had for years but I hardly use it. For my stuff I go by feel. If I build a set for someone I will test build a 6 or 7 iron knowing what all components weigh and let them hit it and go from there.
[/quote]

What I discovered in vintage irons is using a certain stable-mate set set of irons and comparing newly claimed gems to the stable-mate set. So they all pretty much get compared - in one way or another to the stable mates. My stable-mates have no offset, have a long hosel, have stout heavy dynamic shafts, and sharp leading edges in/on them. I will try and minimize the degree of changes that are made to the newly arrived set. Because I build them for specific people and can work from ladies forged sets to Men's sets with various shafts in them. The lie is built around the new owners feels and contact points. I do weigh some parts, like the grip, ferrule, wraps of tape, lead tape or tunsten powder- but not too much more then that. I have seen some unusual sets over the years and some of them have their merits. For example Bobby Jones came up with the idea of having certain clubs with the steps matching, but the length of shafts vary. It works, but few will trust this system. Then there is the removal of a steel shaft from a persimmon wood and tip trimming the shaft and re-installing it. In this case the weight is measured. There are a few variables in various sets - so I try a few different things - often times from the examples of others who have tried similar ways of modifying a set.

The one thing I never tried was installing an iron shaft in a fairway wood. Some years ago Raymond Floyd and a few others did this to their sets because they wanted the stoutest shafts in their woods. They claimed they got better control with the stiffer iron shafts in their woods. I think that that is a great concept. With todays modern shafts one may get around that. But with so many shafts available it's a major task to sort though all the possibilities So I focus on vintage because many of the tolerances and specifications are often times quite good.

Lastly, my apology to the OP because his topic was about the new Hogan irons which I commented on earlier..

[Pigems]

I almost glued a 3 irom.shaft into a G20 head the other day just out of curiosity, I should have tried it.

[Mitchell]

Neither the clubs themselves, nor the marketing strategy employed appeal to my personal tastes, too much effort to combine features that appeal to vastly differing needs and demographics.

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1430392287' post='11471447']
Like socialism, the blade versus GI debate is a creeping vine, weaving its tangled way even into our little corner of the web.
As great debates go, ours pales in comparison to "the chicken, or the egg," but, my spin, either can do the intended task, when properly fitted.
[/quote]

Hi Randy,

Yes, our friend gopherguts has wandered into our section of the site, discussing blade vs. GI.

I think the beauty with us aged specimens is that the arguement can be made all day about scoring better with GI irons. We will sagely nod our heads, and in many cases agree with those arguing.

Problem is, we really don't care. We are chasing a feeling, a memory, or something we cannot define. We are not chasing score. We play golf, not golf swing, or golf score. We have a thread with "equipment finds", not to compare, critique, or debate, but to rejoice in the good fortune of others. We talk about challenges we have with our equipment, not to discuss changing it, but instead to encourage each other to keep at it.

Much like a '57 Chevy, we don't want the fastest car. We instead sit back, enjoy the aesthetic, appreciate the craftsmanship that went into its creation, then head out for a leisurely Sunday drive, a drive that may involve a chocolate-dipped soft serve from Dairy Queen.

So no, I'm not worried about GI vs. blades pervading this section of the forum, as we will all acknowledge that for most golfers, GI clubs are more forgiving and can help them score better.

The fact is, we simply don't care.

As we get older, we learn enjoying the drive is just as important as getting to the destination.