Changes YOU'D LIKE TO SEE to the game of golf

[SurfDuffer]

1. Player's ability test for people wishing to play on courses during prime time. Player must prove to have a reasonable chance of being in proximity to the green in regulation. If they fail they must play off hours or play the local par 3 course or take lessons until they pass.

2. Golf carts would be completely eliminated for everyone under age 60 unless they have a specific medical condition and a doctor's note. Carts would have to fly a handicapped flag.

[_Stormin_]

[quote name='jbhawx' timestamp='1436193984' post='11895862']
My change: Base Tee Boxes off handicap levels. So for example 20+ handicaps play off the first set of tees. 15-20 off the second send, 14 and below off the mens traditional tees. In my opinion if you are first starting off or have a high handicap part of the problem is you probably can't hit the clubs far enough to get a real shot of making par.
[/quote]
I actually like this as a SUGGESTION for courses. Put it right on the scorecard as a recommendation, and much like many recommendations, if you know that your game plays differently, play as such. (I hit just fine for distance, my short game needs the work.)

[BillyZ2]

[quote name='_Stormin_' timestamp='1436621976' post='11928514']
[quote name='jbhawx' timestamp='1436193984' post='11895862']
My change: Base Tee Boxes off handicap levels. So for example 20+ handicaps play off the first set of tees. 15-20 off the second send, 14 and below off the mens traditional tees. In my opinion if you are first starting off or have a high handicap part of the problem is you probably can't hit the clubs far enough to get a real shot of making par.
[/quote]
I actually like this as a SUGGESTION for courses. Put it right on the scorecard as a recommendation, and much like many recommendations, if you know that your game plays differently, play as such. (I hit just fine for distance, my short game needs the work.)
[/quote]What happens if a golfer doesn't keep a hc and, say, would be a 7 hc if he had kept one?

[MarylandGolfer2018]

Juniors playing for cheaper

[Medic]

To those saying to get rid of carts:

1. If used properly they actually speed up play.

2. On some courses and in the heat of summer here in the tropics, it is a health issue. There are some courses where just going from the green to the next tee is fully 1/2 mile. In 103 degree ambient temps this is simply dangerous.

You want to walk? Knock yourself out. But I'll keep my cart thank you. And just as I would not try to force you to ride along don't try to force me to walk. I get enough exercise at work.

[granite45]

I had no idea OB has become such an issue nationwide... if you play on older shorter courses it is never an issue, you almost never see it.

If developers are really cramming courses into a square peg where a moderate slice or pull will result in OB, then yes time to change the rule.

I would also disagree that the older courses are in trouble, there is nothing wrong with hitting driver 10 of 14 fairways, some would say that's better course design.

[crater_divots]

Medic, I usually agree with your stances on the board and respect your opinion. Don't take what I post here as a personal attack (and I hope it doesn't seem like one) even though I intend on picking apart this post.

[quote name='Medic' timestamp='1436657626' post='11930918'] To those saying to get rid of carts: 1. If [b][i]used properly[/i][/b] they actually speed up play. [/quote]

The key words there are [i][b]used properly[/b][/i], and that is exactly why I support minimizing/eliminating carts. They AREN'T being used properly across the board, and their abuse is leading to damage to courses and long, brutally slow rounds. While a cart CAN be a useful tool, if the courses aren't going to educate their consumers and then enforce the standards that make carts effective, they become the trouble that they often are at many, many courses.

The people that know how to use ANY golf equipment "properly" are never the problem. The problem with carts is that there is no preface to their use.

Used improperly, golf carts give the potential to slow the game down dramatically and damage the course for all other users.

[quote]2. On some courses and in the heat of summer here in the tropics, it is a health issue. There are some courses where just going from the green to the next tee is fully 1/2 mile. In 103 degree ambient temps this is simply dangerous. [/quote]

What you've just described doesn't necessitate carts in golf, but it would require either better planning on the course designer, or simple remedies that could still apply to those courses.

I frequently play a course where there are 2 separate massive distances between 2 different greens/tees. The course (IMO) built the course this way to make carts a mandatory requirement and therefor justify their investment in the brand new electric carts they had purchased. The problem though, is that many of the regulars refuse a cart and lots of negative feedback followed.

The course now employs 2 "drivers" that wait beside these two greens and taxi walkers to the next teebox. They drop off the walkers and then come back and wait on the green for the next group coming through.

Solutions exist.

[quote]You want to walk? Knock yourself out. But I'll keep my cart thank you. And just as I would not try to force you to ride along don't try to force me to walk. I get enough exercise at work. [/quote]

You very well might, but many don't. Technology has brought us a lot of benefits, but being sedentary as a society isn't one of them. I've hiked 2 mountains in my life that I have no desire to again (Pikes Peak in CO, and Mt. Washington in NH) and the reason is that the top of these mountains is far too accessible.

Now I realize that we're treading into a "my RIGHTS!" direction, and I don't care to get into the constitution on that one. But I will say (exercising the 1st amendment) that I would prefer that walking (pushing/carrying) was the standard way of playing the game and that carts are a last resort... not the other way around.


FTR, I've lived in Florida myself and I actually preferred to go out and walk 18 midday. The course was almost always empty (compared to early morning, which felt like being in the mall on black friday) and I found that courses could certainly make the experience not only doable, but pretty pleasant with planned shade, water stops, and a few coolers of ice placed strategically around the course.

[MAndrews]

Simplify the rules, no need for "rulings" on every situation.

14 club rule needs rethinking. The number of clubs in the bag has very little to do with a players ability, you can't buy competence.

PGA needs to re-think the "no shorts" rule. I'm as crusty old fart as has ever existed but other than "tradition" I don't see the point.

[Medic]

[quote name='crater_divots' timestamp='1436727079' post='11934482']
Medic, I usually agree with your stances on the board and respect your opinion. Don't take what I post here as a personal attack (and I hope it doesn't seem like one) even though I intend on picking apart this post.

[quote name='Medic' timestamp='1436657626' post='11930918'] To those saying to get rid of carts: 1. If [b][i]used properly[/i][/b] they actually speed up play. [/quote]

The key words there are [i][b]used properly[/b][/i], and that is exactly why I support minimizing/eliminating carts. They AREN'T being used properly across the board, and their abuse is leading to damage to courses and long, brutally slow rounds. While a cart CAN be a useful tool, if the courses aren't going to educate their consumers and then enforce the standards that make carts effective, they become the trouble that they often are at many, many courses.

The people that know how to use ANY golf equipment "properly" are never the problem. The problem with carts is that there is no preface to their use.

Used improperly, golf carts give the potential to slow the game down dramatically and damage the course for all other users.

[quote]2. On some courses and in the heat of summer here in the tropics, it is a health issue. There are some courses where just going from the green to the next tee is fully 1/2 mile. In 103 degree ambient temps this is simply dangerous. [/quote]

What you've just described doesn't necessitate carts in golf, but it would require either better planning on the course designer, or simple remedies that could still apply to those courses.

I frequently play a course where there are 2 separate massive distances between 2 different greens/tees. The course (IMO) built the course this way to make carts a mandatory requirement and therefor justify their investment in the brand new electric carts they had purchased. The problem though, is that many of the regulars refuse a cart and lots of negative feedback followed.

The course now employs 2 "drivers" that wait beside these two greens and taxi walkers to the next teebox. They drop off the walkers and then come back and wait on the green for the next group coming through.

Solutions exist.

[quote]You want to walk? Knock yourself out. But I'll keep my cart thank you. And just as I would not try to force you to ride along don't try to force me to walk. I get enough exercise at work. [/quote]

You very well might, but many don't. Technology has brought us a lot of benefits, but being sedentary as a society isn't one of them. I've hiked 2 mountains in my life that I have no desire to again (Pikes Peak in CO, and Mt. Washington in NH) and the reason is that the top of these mountains is far too accessible.

Now I realize that we're treading into a "my RIGHTS!" direction, and I don't care to get into the constitution on that one. But I will say (exercising the 1st amendment) that I would prefer that walking (pushing/carrying) was the standard way of playing the game and that carts are a last resort... not the other way around.


FTR, I've lived in Florida myself and I actually preferred to go out and walk 18 midday. The course was almost always empty (compared to early morning, which felt like being in the mall on black friday) and I found that courses could certainly make the experience not only doable, but pretty pleasant with planned shade, water stops, and a few coolers of ice placed strategically around the course.
[/quote]

Points well taken but there are some courses that are simply not designed for walkers. I too have walked midday in the heat - gets the heart racing and frankly keeps my muscles loose. But as I said I get enough exercise at work. One fire and I'm good for the week.

But you hit the nail on the head regarding the improper use. I play "ready golf" and you and I would get along just fine. I drop you off (if I am driving) at your ball and park the cart 1/2 way to my ball. You hit and head to the cart - by the time you have hit I am in position - I hit. And you come pick me up. It really isn't hard but most who use carts use them to be lazy.

You should see a new course called Champions Gate Country Club. There are a few holes where it is literally 1/2 mile from green to tee. Played there today in tourney and the heat was brutal. Cannot remotely imagine walking it. Only been open 6 months or so. Really interesting design meandering around some housing and woods.

[BillyZ2]

[quote name='crater_divots' timestamp='1436727079' post='11934482']
Medic, I usually agree with your stances on the board and respect your opinion. Don't take what I post here as a personal attack (and I hope it doesn't seem like one) even though I intend on picking apart this post.

[quote name='Medic' timestamp='1436657626' post='11930918'] To those saying to get rid of carts: 1. If [b][i]used properly[/i][/b] they actually speed up play. [/quote]

The key words there are [i][b]used properly[/b][/i], and that is exactly why I support minimizing/eliminating carts. They AREN'T being used properly across the board, and their abuse is leading to damage to courses and long, brutally slow rounds. While a cart CAN be a useful tool, if the courses aren't going to educate their consumers and then enforce the standards that make carts effective, they become the trouble that they often are at many, many courses.

The people that know how to use ANY golf equipment "properly" are never the problem. The problem with carts is that there is no preface to their use.

Used improperly, golf carts give the potential to slow the game down dramatically and damage the course for all other users.

[quote]2. On some courses and in the heat of summer here in the tropics, it is a health issue. There are some courses where just going from the green to the next tee is fully 1/2 mile. In 103 degree ambient temps this is simply dangerous. [/quote]

What you've just described doesn't necessitate carts in golf, but it would require either better planning on the course designer, or simple remedies that could still apply to those courses.

I frequently play a course where there are 2 separate massive distances between 2 different greens/tees. The course (IMO) built the course this way to make carts a mandatory requirement and therefor justify their investment in the brand new electric carts they had purchased. The problem though, is that many of the regulars refuse a cart and lots of negative feedback followed.

The course now employs 2 "drivers" that wait beside these two greens and taxi walkers to the next teebox. They drop off the walkers and then come back and wait on the green for the next group coming through.

Solutions exist.

[quote]You want to walk? Knock yourself out. But I'll keep my cart thank you. And just as I would not try to force you to ride along don't try to force me to walk. I get enough exercise at work. [/quote]

You very well might, but many don't. Technology has brought us a lot of benefits, but being sedentary as a society isn't one of them. I've hiked 2 mountains in my life that I have no desire to again (Pikes Peak in CO, and Mt. Washington in NH) and the reason is that the top of these mountains is far too accessible.

Now I realize that we're treading into a "my RIGHTS!" direction, and I don't care to get into the constitution on that one. But I will say (exercising the 1st amendment) that I would prefer that walking (pushing/carrying) was the standard way of playing the game and that carts are a last resort... not the other way around.


FTR, I've lived in Florida myself and I actually preferred to go out and walk 18 midday. The course was almost always empty (compared to early morning, which felt like being in the mall on black friday) and I found that courses could certainly make the experience not only doable, but pretty pleasant with planned shade, water stops, and a few coolers of ice placed strategically around the course.
[/quote] I didn't realize I needed to learn so much 'cart wisdom'. I prefer carts.

[SeaOfGreen10]

[quote name='granite45' timestamp='1436710650' post='11933496']
I had no idea OB has become such an issue nationwide... if you play on older shorter courses it is never an issue, you almost never see it.

If developers are really cramming courses into a square peg where a moderate slice or pull will result in OB, then yes time to change the rule.

I would also disagree that the older courses are in trouble, there is nothing wrong with hitting driver 10 of 14 fairways, some would say that's better course design.
[/quote]

I occasionally play an older muni course that uses OB throughout the middle of the course, mainly to keep golfers on their own hole. On one hole in particular, you can fly the green by 10 yards and inexplicably be OB, despite still being on the course property (right in front of the next tee box, actually). You can't even see the stakes from the fairway, which doesn't help. It literally took me a few rounds to notice some of the OB stakes, because you would never even expect them to be there. Sadly, in this case, I think it is because it is an older, shorter course, and there is just not enough room on the property.

Obviously, that's an extreme case, but there are definitely some courses out there that take liberties.

I've always played OB as a drop/ one stroke penalty, so that would be my change.

[Medic]

The course I played today has TOHO Water Reclamation Areas. Apparently this has something to do with cleaning sewage - the areas smelled really bad. But what was funny was that they looked just like a regular waste bunker other than being marked by signs. And they were a free drop - no penalty but, per the pro shop, "under no circumstances should you pull a ball from these areas or go in and try to hit it".

There were no penalty markings and believe me they came into play. With people wondering around them looking for balls that had gone in they slowed play down. Really a nice course too - not quite sure why they would use such a water system on such an exclusive course. Imagine buying a $300k home and having to deal with the small of what we came to refer to as "poop sand" just outside your back porch.

[BillyZ2]

It is sort of interesting how golfers are ok with drop/stroke in a hazard, but not on a o/b or lost ball. I think this would be a good move to play them all the same, drop with a stroke, and play from location. Our 4some was playing on a congested course, waiting on the tee when a player we were waiting on comes driving back to hit his provisional for his lost ball. Slowed the course down more then it was. If there is one thing that is ruining the game of golf it's SLOW PLAY.

[jbhawx]

I've read a lot of the arguments over carts so I can get a better understanding. Here is what I've gathered and watched.

When it comes to carts

1. There are at least two people in the cart so each person travels to each shot. (this is multiplied in groups more than two) The result is a slow down of play. You can't play ready golf if everyone goes to everyone's ball every time.

fix: Everyone already pays a cart fee anyways whether you share or not, so get your own cart and you can go to your shot while your playing partner goes to theirs, especially for 2 people. This will eliminate the "slowing down" play because unlike walkers who go directly to their shot cart players generally don't, but having separate carts will allow them to (and if they still don't they are lazy). However; this can increase potential damage from carts.

2. Damage caused by carts. Really this depends on how wet it is outside. I'm always more concerned about the damage to my clubs from wild drivers vs. the course if it hot and dry.

fix: Strict 90 degree rule, or cart path only. However; this can slow down play, especially for folks who land on the opposite side of the fairway from the cart path and have no clue what club they want to use. They should bring several choices with them, but ultimately if you are wanting to speed up play, these don't help.

When it comes to walking

1. Some courses, usually municipal (owned and operated by the city vs. privately owned) owned courses, would rather you ride vs walk because they think it allows faster play.

2. Does not mix well with carts. I've observed where a quick moving group using a cart gets slowed down via walkers, or vice versa. Some courses, again like municipal owned courses want to avoid a mix of carts and walkers and will restrict walking/riding until certain times.

Finally thoughts

If you play solo a cart is almost always faster.
Groups of 2 can benefit more taking separate carts or walking. The effect would be the same because both situations can play ready golf.

[jli2636]

[quote name='jbhawx' timestamp='1436788167' post='11938132']
I've read a lot of the arguments over carts so I can get a better understanding. Here is what I've gathered and watched.

When it comes to carts

1. There are at least two people in the cart so each person travels to each shot. (this is multiplied in groups more than two) The result is a slow down of play. You can't play ready golf if everyone goes to everyone's ball every time.

fix: Everyone already pays a cart fee anyways whether you share or not, so get your own cart and you can go to your shot while your playing partner goes to theirs, especially for 2 people. This will eliminate the "slowing down" play because unlike walkers who go directly to their shot cart players generally don't, but having separate carts will allow them to (and if they still don't they are lazy). However; this can increase potential damage from carts.

2. Damage caused by carts. Really this depends on how wet it is outside. I'm always more concerned about the damage to my clubs from wild drivers vs. the course if it hot and dry.

fix: Strict 90 degree rule, or cart path only. However; this can slow down play, especially for folks who land on the opposite side of the fairway from the cart path and have no clue what club they want to use. They should bring several choices with them, but ultimately if you are wanting to speed up play, these don't help.

When it comes to walking

1. Some courses, usually municipal (owned and operated by the city vs. privately owned) owned courses, would rather you ride vs walk because they think it allows faster play.

2. Does not mix well with carts. I've observed where a quick moving group using a cart gets slowed down via walkers, or vice versa. Some courses, again like municipal owned courses want to avoid a mix of carts and walkers and will restrict walking/riding until certain times.

Finally thoughts

If you play solo a cart is almost always faster.
Groups of 2 can benefit more taking separate carts or walking. The effect would be the same because both situations can play ready golf.
[/quote]

Courses don't keep enough carts stocked to allow everyone to have their own cart. You would delay tee times later in the day of you have every single person their own cart.

[BillyZ2]

[size=3]Here are a few rules that were emailed to me from a tournament I am scheduled to play in today. Slow play warnings predominate the instructions, like usual. Also, you will notice bullet #3 includes the option of not taking a 'stroke and DISTANCE' penalty if that be your choice, and just entering a 9 on the scorecard. Although I really would like to see the rule continue to metamophisize "drop & stroke" penalty instead of 'stroke and distance' penalty that just slows the game down. Personally, I think a stroke penalty is sufficient enough to keep the game fair.[/size]


[size=4]This info is from a GAM tournament governed by the USGA:
· Please only play 18 holes. If you play an extra hole or two on your way back to the clubhouse, you will not be eligible for prizes and we may revoke your GAM Golf Day playing privileges. If the time gap between the second-to-last group getting off the course and the last group getting off the course is too large, we will start scoring and prizes without the last group’s scores. [b][color=#ff0000](SLOW PLAY ADDRESSED)[/color][/b]
· We ask that everyone play with good pace throughout the round. That means playing ready golf and taking no more than 25 seconds to hit when it is your turn to play. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO KEEP UP WITH THE GROUP IN FRONT OF YOU [color=#ff0000][b](SLOW PLAY ADDRESSED)[/b][/color]
· New for all GAM Golf Days this season, all players have a 9 stroke maximum per hole. That means if you’ve lost a ball and would prefer not to go back to take a stroke and distance penalty you can simply mark your score as “9” on the scorecard and proceed to the next hole. [color=#ff0000][b](STROKE AND DISTANCE TAKES TOO LONG)[/b][/color][/size]

[granite45]

Probably because I prefer to walk, I've never had a good round in a cart. I'm sure the reasons have been debated endlessly. The 3 best rounds of my life were all walking.

I'm a good up and down player and I think one of the reasons is walking. I get to walk to my ball and visualize the line, instead, of worrying about where to drive and park around the green.

For a walker, it's distressing to be over a ball so fast without a chance to think and walk to the shot. Yes, in slow play you have plenty of time to contemplate, but that's not the same as walking up to the shot.

[jbhawx]

[quote name='BillyZ2' timestamp='1436794072' post='11938530']
[size=3]Here are a few rules that were emailed to me from a tournament I am scheduled to play in today. Slow play warnings predominate the instructions, like usual. Also, you will notice bullet #3 includes the option of not taking a 'stroke and DISTANCE' penalty if that be your choice, and just entering a 9 on the scorecard. Although I really would like to see the rule continue to metamophisize "drop & stroke" penalty instead of 'stroke and distance' penalty that just slows the game down. Personally, I think a stroke penalty is sufficient enough to keep the game fair.[/size]


[size=4]This info is from a GAM tournament governed by the USGA:
· Please only play 18 holes. If you play an extra hole or two on your way back to the clubhouse, you will not be eligible for prizes and we may revoke your GAM Golf Day playing privileges. If the time gap between the second-to-last group getting off the course and the last group getting off the course is too large, we will start scoring and prizes without the last group’s scores. [b][color=#ff0000](SLOW PLAY ADDRESSED)[/color][/b]
· We ask that everyone play with good pace throughout the round. That means playing ready golf and taking no more than 25 seconds to hit when it is your turn to play. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO KEEP UP WITH THE GROUP IN FRONT OF YOU [color=#ff0000][b](SLOW PLAY ADDRESSED)[/b][/color]
· New for all GAM Golf Days this season, all players have a 9 stroke maximum per hole. That means if you’ve lost a ball and would prefer not to go back to take a stroke and distance penalty you can simply mark your score as “9” on the scorecard and proceed to the next hole. [color=#ff0000][b](STROKE AND DISTANCE TAKES TOO LONG)[/b][/color][/size]
[/quote]

25 seconds to hit? That seems really fast. Someone told me the rule of thumb was 12 minutes a hole, and that seems slow to me. I play with a friend who can't stand playing fast and will let people play through him so he can go at his own pace. Takes 4 hours to play a round with him.

I agree 100% that you should keep pace with the group in front of you. I have always viewed it as you should be teeing off when the group finished up on the green. If you are playing slower than that you are too slow, and faster than that is too fast. However; what if the group in front is a slow group?

I have also seen bottlenecks occur, usually on a par 4 or par 5 right after a par 3, or the bottleneck is at the par 3 after a par 4. I think course layout could address those bottlenecks to help speed up play. For example a par 5 before a par 3 and a long par 4 or par 5 after a par 3 to stretch out play at par 3s.

[rsj1360]

If I could change one thing it would be to get people, for the love of all that is holy, to stop complaining about "slow play". It is way more annoying about the perceived slow play itself.

This weekend, as a single, I was paired up with three Korean guys who are in the area for an extended business stay. They were not very good golfers. They could generally get off the tee, and kept it in play (as in not in the woods or hazards), but their irons and especially around the greens they were pretty bad. They also were very methodical. And, without a doubt, slower than the average American golfer in doing things - especially in the transition from green to tee. Not sure why. I assume it is cultural.

Because of this we definitely "fell behind" the group in front. Behind us was a threesome that seemed to be waiting on us at some points and not at others. (Bear in mind threesomes will almost always be faster than foursomes and what appears slow in reality is not.) Anyway, I was going to suggest letting them play through, but at the convenient places the threesome was not in position to do so.

After the turn - on the first fairway (we played the back nine first) - I noticed a group on the second tee. I thought to myself that the starter must have let another group in front of us. I was happy with that as the perception would be that we now were "in position". But I still kept it in mind that I'd suggest letting the threesome through when the opportunity was there and they were in position to do so. So as it turns out the ranger comes along when we got to the second tee and said we need to pick it up as the group behind us skipped a hole. This made the three others I was with visibly upset and nervous and they started playing much worse and visibly enjoying the round much much less.

Anyway, we finished up the round "keeping pace".

The upshot is that we played the first nine in 2 hrs 10 minutes and the second nine in 2 hrs even. I felt really, really bad for my playing partners - who after all are guests in our country - and they had to encounter this rude behavior all to have the _perception_ of sped up play. 2:10 for nine holes is no way "slow". Although to me and to the threesome behind us, it did indeed "feel" slow. If we played the second nine in the same pace we would have saved the group behind us 10 minutes. Big whoop.

[jbhawx]

[quote name='rsj1360' timestamp='1436797006' post='11938746']
If I could change one thing it would be to get people, for the love of all that is holy, to stop complaining about "slow play". It is way more annoying about the perceived slow play itself.

This weekend, as a single, I was paired up with three Korean guys who are in the area for an extended business stay. They were not very good golfers. They could generally get off the tee, and kept it in play (as in not in the woods or hazards), but their irons and especially around the greens they were pretty bad. They also were very methodical. And, without a doubt, slower than the average American golfer in doing things - especially in the transition from green to tee. Not sure why. I assume it is cultural.

Because of this we definitely "fell behind" the group in front. Behind us was a threesome that seemed to be waiting on us at some points and not at others. (Bear in mind threesomes will almost always be faster than foursomes and what appears slow in reality is not.) Anyway, I was going to suggest letting them play through, but at the convenient places the threesome was not in position to do so.

After the turn - on the first fairway (we played the back nine first) - I noticed a group on the second tee. I thought to myself that the starter must have let another group in front of us. I was happy with that as the perception would be that we now were "in position". But I still kept it in mind that I'd suggest letting the threesome through when the opportunity was there and they were in position to do so. So as it turns out the ranger comes along when we got to the second tee and said we need to pick it up as the group behind us skipped a hole. This made the three others I was with visibly upset and nervous and they started playing much worse and visibly enjoying the round much much less.

Anyway, we finished up the round "keeping pace".

The upshot is that we played the first nine in 2 hrs 10 minutes and the second nine in 2 hrs even. I felt really, really bad for my playing partners - who after all are guests in our country - and they had to encounter this rude behavior all to have the _perception_ of sped up play. 2:10 for nine holes is no way "slow". Although to me and to the threesome behind us, it did indeed "feel" slow. If we played the second nine in the same pace we would have saved the group behind us 10 minutes. Big whoop.
[/quote]

That is insane. You can't be blamed for another group skipping a hole. 4 hours is the expected time to play in a 4 some anyways so being 10 minutes off isn't a big deal in my opinion. Maybe golf just needs to create a rule for standard time allowed to play a round, and go in detail for single, double, three, and 4 man groups.

[bub72ck]

Why the sudden influx of people wanting to make the game easier by doing away with penalty shots? If you want to play your own game with clubs and balls on a golf course go ahead. But don't call it golf. Like Kymar said, making the game easier so you can talk about lower scores is absurd. Work on your game and take pride in doing things the right way.

[jbhawx]

[quote name='bub72ck' timestamp='1436800149' post='11938982']
Why the sudden influx of people wanting to make the game easier by doing away with penalty shots? If you want to play your own game with clubs and balls on a golf course go ahead. But don't call it golf. Like Kymar said, making the game easier so you can talk about lower scores is absurd. Work on your game and take pride in doing things the right way.
[/quote]

While I 100% agree with this, if you want a true measurement of your golfing ability. I don't agree with not calling it golf if you don't count penalties. In fact when I first started playing again last year one of the first things I read was by the USGA pushing for new players to find the game more enjoyable. One of the things they said was not to count penalties, take a mulligan if you need, if your group allows gimmies on putts feel free to do so. They also push for you to take your time and enjoy the game.

Basically the USGA was trying to soften the rules to casual players to keep their interest. In reality I agree with that approach as well because in every other sport there are relaxed rules of play. If I play flag football I'm not going to have an incomplete passed ruled if I catch it and fall to the ground and the ball pops out, but in the NFL you are. In baseball I'm not going to have an instant reply to see who was right on a tagged base and who got their first, it is all on the umpire at the time, in the MLB you will. In tennis no one calls foul if you hit it outside of the lines when you casually play, but at professional level they will.

Fact is, like most sports, Pros are held to a much higher standard than your every day player, and being as such it isn't fair to hold every player, whether pro, scratch, 5 handicap, or 32 handicap to the same strict rules and expect them all to play by the same strict rules. Now if you want to compete, especially in tournaments, than yes I agree 100% play by the rules as they are written if you want a true measurement of your skill. However; I don't agree that everyone should be held to those same rules if they just want to go enjoy a round with their friends.

Backyard baseball is different than professional baseball. Same for football, hockey, tennis, ping pong, etc. However; golf has never been that way traditionally and from what I've seen the USGA is trying to make it that way. If all you shoot is high 100s why would you continue to play, but if you don't have to count penalties and take a few mulligans here and there and suddenly break 100 you might come back for another round. Then you might find that you like it and start playing by the rules a little more as you improve.

Just my 2 cents.

[granite45]

Maybe we shouldn't call the NBA "basketball" since they haven't called traveling since the 70's.

[nbg352]

[quote name='bub72ck' timestamp='1436800149' post='11938982']
Why the sudden influx of people wanting to make the game easier by doing away with penalty shots? If you want to play your own game with clubs and balls on a golf course go ahead. But don't call it golf. Like Kymar said, making the game easier so you can talk about lower scores is absurd. Work on your game and take pride in doing things the right way.
[/quote]
Typical arrogant answer to what has became a steamroller issue. If they were to change the rules, would you change with them? If not, what would you be calling the game you'd continue to play? Certainly not golf, I hope..........

[Dan Drake]

[quote name='jli2636' timestamp='1436793904' post='11938518']
[quote name='jbhawx' timestamp='1436788167' post='11938132']
I've read a lot of the arguments over carts so I can get a better understanding. Here is what I've gathered and watched.

When it comes to carts

1. There are at least two people in the cart so each person travels to each shot. (this is multiplied in groups more than two) The result is a slow down of play. You can't play ready golf if everyone goes to everyone's ball every time.

fix: Everyone already pays a cart fee anyways whether you share or not, so get your own cart and you can go to your shot while your playing partner goes to theirs, especially for 2 people. This will eliminate the "slowing down" play because unlike walkers who go directly to their shot cart players generally don't, but having separate carts will allow them to (and if they still don't they are lazy). However; this can increase potential damage from carts.

2. Damage caused by carts. Really this depends on how wet it is outside. I'm always more concerned about the damage to my clubs from wild drivers vs. the course if it hot and dry.

fix: Strict 90 degree rule, or cart path only. However; this can slow down play, especially for folks who land on the opposite side of the fairway from the cart path and have no clue what club they want to use. They should bring several choices with them, but ultimately if you are wanting to speed up play, these don't help.

When it comes to walking

1. Some courses, usually municipal (owned and operated by the city vs. privately owned) owned courses, would rather you ride vs walk because they think it allows faster play.

2. Does not mix well with carts. I've observed where a quick moving group using a cart gets slowed down via walkers, or vice versa. Some courses, again like municipal owned courses want to avoid a mix of carts and walkers and will restrict walking/riding until certain times.

Finally thoughts

If you play solo a cart is almost always faster.
Groups of 2 can benefit more taking separate carts or walking. The effect would be the same because both situations can play ready golf.
[/quote]

Courses don't keep enough carts stocked to allow everyone to have their own cart. You would delay tee times later in the day of you have every single person their own cart.
[/quote]

Absolutely agree. You are talking about spending 2x as much on carts & maintenance of the fleet, therefore, the cart fees must go up. Now the golfer is complaining that the course is too expensive.

Also, to an above point, golf carts do damage to the course even when the conditions are not wet. All you have to do is look at the grass, or lack thereof, at the spots where carts all get off the cart path near the tee box and then back on near the green. These spots will be brown, devoid of grass, and look generally unsightly. Now imagine patches like that throughout the course in the commonly traffic'd areas. So now, water, labor, fertilizer, and other turfcare costs go up. This also causes the rates at the course to go up, thus making the course "too expensive."

The golf course superintendent's job is hard enough without every golfer having their own cart.

[bandrz]

[quote name='MountainKing' timestamp='1435684051' post='11862998']
[quote name='Golf Monkey' timestamp='1435683747' post='11862966']
[quote name='MountainKing' timestamp='1435683080' post='11862894']
[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1435676692' post='11862114']
The fact that the OB topic comes up so often on this site irritates me to no end. Golf is supposed to be played on the course. If you leave the course, it should be the most severe penalty. The rules need not be changed just because real estate developpers try to cram golf courses into too small spaces in between houses. This needs to change, not the rules of golf.
[/quote]


That's not going to happen - like other sports the rules need to evolve to keep up with how things are being built. In a hazard you have the option to hit the ball as it lays, OB you don't have the option, that's the penalty difference. The rules are based on the professional game and the professional game and professional courses have evolved a lot differently than the amateur game has. I only would like to see the rules change from a selfish stand point of I get sick of sitting on the course for hours.
[/quote]

Every course has Out of Bounds, it's where the course stops and the rest of the world begins!
[/quote]

Personally I think we should just do away with out of bounds, you find it you play it even if it's in the middle of the subdivision, the world should be our golf course!
[/quote]

can you imagine the 19th hole stories? subtract a stroke if you get up and down standing 3 feet from a rabid dog. (and since the pundits will argue what is the true definition of a rabid dog, be it known that rabid dog is defined as the following: fur. four legs. two ears. teeth. barks.)

[jbhawx]

[quote name='Dan Drake' timestamp='1436804766' post='11939466']
[quote name='jli2636' timestamp='1436793904' post='11938518']
[quote name='jbhawx' timestamp='1436788167' post='11938132']
I've read a lot of the arguments over carts so I can get a better understanding. Here is what I've gathered and watched.

When it comes to carts

1. There are at least two people in the cart so each person travels to each shot. (this is multiplied in groups more than two) The result is a slow down of play. You can't play ready golf if everyone goes to everyone's ball every time.

fix: Everyone already pays a cart fee anyways whether you share or not, so get your own cart and you can go to your shot while your playing partner goes to theirs, especially for 2 people. This will eliminate the "slowing down" play because unlike walkers who go directly to their shot cart players generally don't, but having separate carts will allow them to (and if they still don't they are lazy). However; this can increase potential damage from carts.

2. Damage caused by carts. Really this depends on how wet it is outside. I'm always more concerned about the damage to my clubs from wild drivers vs. the course if it hot and dry.

fix: Strict 90 degree rule, or cart path only. However; this can slow down play, especially for folks who land on the opposite side of the fairway from the cart path and have no clue what club they want to use. They should bring several choices with them, but ultimately if you are wanting to speed up play, these don't help.

When it comes to walking

1. Some courses, usually municipal (owned and operated by the city vs. privately owned) owned courses, would rather you ride vs walk because they think it allows faster play.

2. Does not mix well with carts. I've observed where a quick moving group using a cart gets slowed down via walkers, or vice versa. Some courses, again like municipal owned courses want to avoid a mix of carts and walkers and will restrict walking/riding until certain times.

Finally thoughts

If you play solo a cart is almost always faster.
Groups of 2 can benefit more taking separate carts or walking. The effect would be the same because both situations can play ready golf.
[/quote]

Courses don't keep enough carts stocked to allow everyone to have their own cart. You would delay tee times later in the day of you have every single person their own cart.
[/quote]

Absolutely agree. You are talking about spending 2x as much on carts & maintenance of the fleet, therefore, the cart fees must go up. Now the golfer is complaining that the course is too expensive.

Also, to an above point, golf carts do damage to the course even when the conditions are not wet. All you have to do is look at the grass, or lack thereof, at the spots where carts all get off the cart path near the tee box and then back on near the green. These spots will be brown, devoid of grass, and look generally unsightly. Now imagine patches like that throughout the course in the commonly traffic'd areas. So now, water, labor, fertilizer, and other turfcare costs go up. This also causes the rates at the course to go up, thus making the course "too expensive."

The golf course superintendent's job is hard enough without every golfer having their own cart.
[/quote]

I had not considered that. I was addressing the rate of play of cart vs. walking. I agree that it would be too expensive for everyone to have their own cart, and yes I can see where there is damage even when not wet.

To fix all the damage of a golf course we should start a crowdfunding site to built the ultimate maintenance free golf course. Much like astro turf football fields, we use only artificial turf for rough, fairway, and greens which never have to be mowed or maintained, except maybe by sweepers. All the trees can be artificial as well. Water hazards will be completely concrete to prevent any weed growing and filtered so you can clearly see how many people hit their ball in the water. Based on this new course design, which would have a huge initial cost, the low cost maintenance would reduce green fees over time. The artificial turf would reduce ball marks and divots.

[SeaOfGreen10]

[quote name='bub72ck' timestamp='1436800149' post='11938982']
Why the sudden influx of people wanting to make the game easier by doing away with penalty shots? If you want to play your own game with clubs and balls on a golf course go ahead. But don't call it golf. Like Kymar said, making the game easier so you can talk about lower scores is absurd. Work on your game and take pride in doing things the right way.
[/quote]

Actually, your question has been answered by a number of posters, and with a number of reasonable explanations. That you chose to ignore all of those in order to condescendingly mock your straw man argument (braggin about lower scores) makes it hard to take your post seriously.

[bub72ck]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1436803703' post='11939348']
[quote name='bub72ck' timestamp='1436800149' post='11938982']
Why the sudden influx of people wanting to make the game easier by doing away with penalty shots? If you want to play your own game with clubs and balls on a golf course go ahead. But don't call it golf. Like Kymar said, making the game easier so you can talk about lower scores is absurd. Work on your game and take pride in doing things the right way.
[/quote]
Typical arrogant answer to what has became a steamroller issue. If they were to change the rules, would you change with them? If not, what would you be calling the game you'd continue to play? Certainly not golf, I hope..........
[/quote]

If they changed the rules I would play by the rules that were given, just as I do today. Golf never changes regardless of how long you have been playing or your skill level. I guess I enjoy the challenge of the game as it is presented. If my scores are too high or the course is too hard, I work to get better. That's the way I look at things. When I couldn't break 100 I looked at it the same way.

I'll apologize for saying the game some people play isn't "golf". It was a generalization. This subject just ticks me off because I see it as a microcosm of our society as a whole. Everything these days seems to be "too hard".

[bub72ck]

[quote name='SeaOfGreen10' timestamp='1436807917' post='11939906']
[quote name='bub72ck' timestamp='1436800149' post='11938982']
Why the sudden influx of people wanting to make the game easier by doing away with penalty shots? If you want to play your own game with clubs and balls on a golf course go ahead. But don't call it golf. Like Kymar said, making the game easier so you can talk about lower scores is absurd. Work on your game and take pride in doing things the right way.
[/quote]

Actually, your question has been answered by a number of posters, and with a number of reasonable explanations. That you chose to ignore all of those in order to condescendingly mock your straw man argument (braggin about lower scores) makes it hard to take your post seriously.
[/quote]

I didn't have time to read the rest of the posts. I saw the OP and another thread with the same tone. People have reasons for playing golf the way they want and that is fine. As I said in the other reply, my generalization that any form of the game besides that played by the rules isn't golf was wrong. The game is hard and it's hard for everybody. It's still fun to me but it's not for other people.