What is considered Classic/ Vintage?

[jbucher]

I was just chatting with a work mate about what is considered a classic car, here in Wa state it has to be 25 YO. So for me liking the 70's era clubs would they be considered Classic? to me Vintage would be the wooden shafted clubs. When my folks learned to play in the early 70's they were given some wooden shafted clubs, of that collection I sorta inherited the 6 iron and that was my first full sized club.

Just wondering..............

Jimmy B :smilie_wilson:

[rex235]

Jimmy-

You're on the right track...Kind of.

A lot of clubs have been made from "Classic" designs.

[TimV]

"[size=4]In other words, for the term [b]vintage[/b] to accurately apply to it, an item should be somewhat representational and recognizable as belonging to the era in which it was made." Ruby Lane also suggests that '[b]vintage[/b]' should not be used in reference to objects less than 20 years old.[/size][color=#777777]Oct 26, 2010"[/color]

[dbuck47]

We are a little more laid back in this neck of the woods. There have been many discussions, one to look at and read through is "A set for all seasons". In here, we mainly discuss two distinct disciplines, if you will, classic/vintage and hickory.

Hickory is actually more defined, having a set of rules implemented over the past several years. We are privileged to have among the regular contributors Tad Moore, who is without question one of the foremost authorities on the subject. To say that he is one of the most important people responsible for the advancement of hickory golf is an understatement; to say he is the most important would not be an overstatement. He has through his long career as a designer and clubmaker, been among the most influential in the game of golf as a whole. Many folks on this forum enjoy both vintage and hickory.

The vintage/classic definition is a little more broad and open to interpretation, at least among those who frequent this forum. To me, it means wooden heads (either persimmon or laminated maple), blade irons, blade-like wedges with no more than 56* loft, and traditional length putters without polymer inserts. I have no regard for age; it may be an original Mac persimmon, or a Louisville Golf new one. The blades may be my '79 Wilson Staffs, or some Mizuno MP 14's. As far as design, something that was around in the early 90's more or less, or a copy or similar design. It is hard not to call the PING Anser I sometimes play with classic. Some think PING Eye 2's should be included, others don't. We are pretty much live and let live in here.

Another privilege we have on this forum, is the commentary of Charley Penna, another long tenured and influential figure in the golf world, who has forgotten more history and facts about club design than most of us will ever know.

[Buzzkill]

[b] What is considered Classic/ Vintage?[/b]


Anything on this site older than one season of play!

[scomac2002]

To my way of thinking using the classic car definition above anything over 25 years old classifies as vintage. Within that are subgroups of classic clubs that are generally referred to as persimmon and forged blades and of course hickory golf which can be vintage or otherwise.

My vintage bag consists of first generation metal driver, laminate fairways, 1980's era cavity back irons and matching wedges as well as a period correct putter of traditional length. It's hardly classic; more like vintage game improvement as another member coined, but it is decidedly different than playing modern clubs and quite frankly, more rewarding! So you see pretty much anything goes depending upon who's opinion you get. I think we all agree that you find something that works and you use it.

[Soloman1]

I'm not sure how to define it, but I know it when I see it.

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='dbuck47' timestamp='1436381865' post='11911432']
...blade-like wedges with no more than 56* loft...
[/quote]


I was with you right up to that.

The 56° SW is largely a late 70s, early 80s creation. If you go back farther, say into Hogan's prime, and especially if you go back to the early SW days, you'll see SW are 58° and even 60°.

Through another forum, I'm acquainted with a gent who collects old wedges, much of his collection are in that 58°-60° realm...

Now on with regularly scheduled posting

[stevemcgee99]

In my opinion Classic is post-hickory and pre-graphite. Definitely pre-metal 'wood'.

But my friend used old Pings and TM burners which, compared to anything for sale at golf stores today, are pretty 'vintage'.

[birly-shirly]

I hadn't thought about this before this thread, but I like the idea that "vintage" is of its time, whilst "classic" transcends its time and era.

Lots of MacGregor designs from the 50s and 60s seem to me very much vintage americana. They scream tailfins and space race to me.

On the other hand, I think 985 irons (Armour branded or not) and 67 VIPs are timeless. But, by the same criteria, so are the original Nike blades, any Aussie blades, most Mizuno blades, Eye 2s and Hogan Apex.

It's not a hierarchy. By these definitions, vintage is maybe a little more about nostalgia and classic about enduring function and style.

Then again, most of my "classics" are from the 80s - decade of my impressionable teens and learning the game. So who's to say that my ideas of timelessness and nostalgia aren't hopelessly confused?

[HighlandLaird]

This makes me laugh----I started to play golf in 1955 at age 13 and I still sometimes use a set of John Letters of Scotland Master Model irons and their "Golden Goose" putter with which I won the British Universities Championship many years ago. They still play very well, and I would use them regularly, but the grooves are worn out.
In my opinion, irons have not improved at all since those days except that more have a good degree of "bounce" in the soles, an essential feature for ALL irons I think.
Woods have also not really improved, but do last longer than persimmon which used to crack, although laminated heads were better.
THE improvement has been in the ball, which now travels much further, but more importantly spins less, so that hooked and sliced shots do not veer off line to anything like the degree of balls of the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s. They also do not cut at all relatively speaking, compared with the balata covered balls, which were extremely fragile and tended to last only a few holes.

[dbuck47]

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1436411176' post='11914314']
[quote name='dbuck47' timestamp='1436381865' post='11911432']
...blade-like wedges with no more than 56* loft...
[/quote]


I was with you right up to that.

The 56° SW is largely a late 70s, early 80s creation. If you go back farther, say into Hogan's prime, and especially if you go back to the early SW days, you'll see SW are 58° and even 60°.

Through another forum, I'm acquainted with a gent who collects old wedges, much of his collection are in that 58°-60° realm...

Now on with regularly scheduled posting
[/quote]


Well, one learns something every day. I should have known that, I guess. It goes to show that the more things change, the more they stay the same.

[BIG STU]

As dbuck said there is nothing really etched in stone of what is classic as far as the steel and persimmon clubs. And in some circles as Chief Buzzkill pointed out a club more than one year or generation old is considered classic. I would even streach it to say IMHO that early metal woods like the little 300cc Burners and Founder's Clubs would be classic. My front line bag is considered antique especially by today's standards. The newest club in my bag the driver is at least a 5 year old design. Really I do not know how old my YES! Dianna putter is I know I have had it 3 years or so.
BTW Buzzkill I had to refer to you as Chief because I am a Navy vet and I have all the respect in the world for a CPO!

[NRJyzr]

Along the lines with the below quoted posts... a friend of mine researched loft creep 15 years ago. He found it to be a continuous phenomenon.

Going off memory here:
Around 1930, the 1 iron was 20°, the 5 iron was 36°, the 9 iron was 52°
Around 1950, the 2 iron was 20°, the 5 iron was 32°, the PW was 52°
Around 1980, the 2 iron was 20°, the 5 iron was 30°, the PW was 50°

The sand iron came in around 6°-8° higher than the PW, or 9 iron when there was no PW, hence the 58° to 60° SW. When the PW had crept forward to 50°, the SW went with it.

It's the age of folks now interested in classic clubs that has the SW fixated on 56°. A great many of us were of an age in the late 70s and 80s that such a lofted wedge would be fixed in our memories. Had the metal wood come out 25 years earlier, and this classic "movement" were shifted backwards 25 years, we may be looking at 58° and 60° sand irons.

Really, the LW not infrequently credited to Tom Kite was a revisiting of wedge lofts a few decades prior.


[quote name='dbuck47' timestamp='1436456691' post='11916828']
[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1436411176' post='11914314']
[quote name='dbuck47' timestamp='1436381865' post='11911432']
...blade-like wedges with no more than 56* loft...
[/quote]


I was with you right up to that.

The 56° SW is largely a late 70s, early 80s creation. If you go back farther, say into Hogan's prime, and especially if you go back to the early SW days, you'll see SW are 58° and even 60°.

Through another forum, I'm acquainted with a gent who collects old wedges, much of his collection are in that 58°-60° realm...

Now on with regularly scheduled posting
[/quote]


Well, one learns something every day. I should have known that, I guess. It goes to show that the more things change, the more they stay the same.
[/quote]

[oldschoolrocker]

Speaking of loft creep. The 9 iron on the Palmers I found a couple of days ago is 47 degrees. I can live with that and carry a 54.

[ScooterMcTavish]

For me, classic is a relative term, and relates directly to the age of the "classic" golfer. Since I am in my mid-40s, my classics do include the Eye 2s, Slotline Inertial putter, 70s and 80s Hogans, and Staff FGs (including my Goosenecks) by Wilson. Titleist 975D and its predecessors are acceptable tools, and small headed persimmon, metal, or carbon FWs are always welcome.

I think what binds everyone in this little wedge of the Internet is not the age or model of club specifically. Instead, we are all looking for something ephemeral, like a feeling, or a memory. The waves of nostalgia I felt were palpable when I played a set of 60's W&D irons on a track they had been used on for >40 years before I owned them. That is a feeling that has no dollar value - it cannot be bought.

The feeling you get when after using an Ironmaster for 6 holes, you finally get it dialed in, and you sink a 30' double breaker. That feeling cannot be bought. Try it with a Odyssey Sabretooth, and tell me it feels as good. It doesn't.

So really, what being a classic golfer means is that you use clubs that make you feel "something" (in fact anything). You may be playing something that was unattainable as a young lad or lassie. You may just appreciate the handmade craftsmanship that went into the clubs. But you feel something when you swing them and make contact that can't be bought.

It's that simple.

[scomac2002]

Very well said Scott!

It's interesting that you relate an experience with an Ironmaster. I know exactly what you mean and not just in an ephemeral sense, but a true tactile sense. I took a few swings with a couple of current crop clubs and you don't feel anything. Everything is so muted as to render it virtually vacant. I find it very disconcerting. Even the modern clubs that I play (5-10 yr. old) on occasion have materially more feel! I have no idea how you play with some of this present day kit.

[xgolfx]

In my opinion, vintage clubs are at least 25 years old. That is the approximate time when the USGA caved in to the manufacturers.the square grooves issue with Ping was a minor loss compared to the metal woods. Golf became less of a sport, and more of a business.Economics took over.
Manufacturers did not need craftsmen to produce clubs. The components could be assembled . All the equipment to make persimmon woods was scrapped. Since today's clubs do not wear out,the desire to buy new clubs is stimulated by implying the duffer will benefit from the equipment the tour pro uses to win tournaments. The improvements have made the game easier for the pros. However, the average golfer who plays the back tees,(wrongly) does not inure help from playing ProV 1 and the latest equipment because he lacks the swing speed.

CHARLEY PENNA

[BIG STU]

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1436494387' post='11920752']
For me, classic is a relative term, and relates directly to the age of the "classic" golfer. Since I am in my mid-40s, my classics do include the Eye 2s, Slotline Inertial putter, 70s and 80s Hogans, and Staff FGs (including my Goosenecks) by Wilson. Titleist 975D and its predecessors are acceptable tools, and small headed persimmon, metal, or carbon FWs are always welcome.

I think what binds everyone in this little wedge of the Internet is not the age or model of club specifically. Instead, we are all looking for something ephemeral, like a feeling, or a memory. The waves of nostalgia I felt were palpable when I played a set of 60's W&D irons on a track they had been used on for >40 years before I owned them. That is a feeling that has no dollar value - it cannot be bought.

The feeling you get when after using an Ironmaster for 6 holes, you finally get it dialed in, and you sink a 30' double breaker. That feeling cannot be bought. Try it with a Odyssey Sabretooth, and tell me it feels as good. It doesn't.

So really, what being a classic golfer means is that you use clubs that make you feel "something" (in fact anything). You may be playing something that was unattainable as a young lad or lassie. You may just appreciate the handmade craftsmanship that went into the clubs. But you feel something when you swing them and make contact that can't be bought.

It's that simple.
[/quote]I will echo all that you said and bring up another thing from my past. Someone can post a pic of a certain classic club on here and it will bring back memories of when I was a kid growing up on a course ran by my Dad. Certain ones bring back memories of some of the hustlers I saw growing up that played that particular style and some bring back memories of those played by our loyal weekend golfers. Some I can even remember being sold new in his pro shop. Keep them coming!!

[Wriggles]

To me, classic is original Big Bertha and older. This morning, I played classic. Big Bertha driver, Ping laminate 3W, and 5,8.PW Karsten 2's, and a brass Bullseye putter.

[BIG STU]

[quote name='Wriggles' timestamp='1436561168' post='11925318']
To me, classic is original Big Bertha and older. This morning, I played classic. Big Bertha driver, Ping laminate 3W, and 5,8.PW Karsten 2's, and a brass Bullseye putter.
[/quote]I have a buddy of mine who still plays a Ping laminate 5 wood which I think is the ISI which has the clear 'window" in the soleplate. Actually he is somewhat of a throwback to me. He plays Ping I 3 irons and his sand wedge is a well worn Northwestern Hubert Green model. His driver is a real old Titleist 979 VJS model. He also plays an old Cally 3 wood with an genuine Memphis 10 steel shaft in it. To top it all off he plays a old Reuter Bulls Eye with the factory leather grip that I gave him a month ago or so. He had previously made a remark that he wished he had an old Bulls Eye like he used to have that was stolen some time ago. Just happened I had one I had salvaged from the scrap pile at work along with a TPM1. Gave it a good home. He can putt the lights out with that thing. Got a call from Camden (up the road) the caller stated "I wish you had never given him that damn putter! He is killing us up here with it." Another club he has that he can really hit is a Ping clone ("Tour Model 2") 2 iron with a off brand Primo steel shaft in it complete with an old GP victory grip. This guy can really play. we play as partners a lot but those boys "up the road " are scared of us. Like I have said before I do not sell many of my finds especially the free ones but the look on his face when I gave him that Bulls Eye was------- Priceless!!

[jbucher]

Thanks for the incite. It has been enjoyable playing with the 73 dyna powers and the set of Fluid feels. I have had the Fluid feels for over a year and played maybe 2/3 rounds and then they sat, dusted them off and played 27 holes with them,
Jimmy B