Mike Malaska - Getting the club in front of you. Made easy...

[Ghost of Snead]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1443974950' post='12408724']
MacKenzie/Como video

The concept presented in this video is well explained If the center of gravity(CG) of the clubhead drops below that of the hand path in early transition, a torque is created that squares up the club WITHOUT ANY ACTIVE CONTROL BY THE GOLFER.
Or in other words if the club is shallowed sufficiently in the early transition,then there is no need for ACTIVE muscular supination to square up the clubhead.

Mr Malaska is suggesting a FEEL of standing up the club to help avoid a stall and "catching up" with the hands .
How do can you shallow the shaft and stand it up at the same time?

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuJaSM7Kexw"]https://www.youtube....h?v=iuJaSM7Kexw[/url]
[/quote]

Can you shallow the shaft in transition and still swing out to right field with your hands moving too far out away from the intended swing arc ?

Can you shallow the shaft in transition with the intent of sticking the butt end of the club in your trail pocket on the way down ? If so, what happens to the shaft when you do so ?

[Grayback1973]

Russ,Malaska's main point in "trying" to stand the shaft up is to offset momentum.He believes the club wants to naturally fall behind the player.So if the player "tries" to stand the shaft up he will offset the momentum and the shaft will come down in the ideal plane with no need for manipulation.

I have watched his videos over and over.You have to really pay attention to what he is saying to fully grasp the concept.He is not just telling people to blindly steepen the shaft and it will shallow automatically.

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='Ghost of Snead' timestamp='1443974612' post='12408704']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1443971444' post='12408542']
[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1443933406' post='12407638']
You can work setup and backswing until the cows come home Russ c and when you're done and you still move badly into the ball in transition you'll have to fix that too. That's just making more work. Now I agree if you wanna go all slicefixer and build a theoretical perfect swing and you put in the years of concentrated single minded effort under professional tutelage and you have the talent you can become very good. This thread is not about the theoretical. It's about something that works for certain golfers.
Some arms wings are different from others. You believe and talk of a theoretical ideal or model. In reality unless the years of training have been put in the model does not apply. I also don't buy this concept of after transition nothing can be changed of course it can that's poppycock.
[/quote]
Phil Cheetham of TPI estimates that the downswing takes from 233 ms in a fast downswing to 296 ms in a slow one.To be able to start down and then make corrections in your movement during this period of time is quite an accomplishment


Below are quotes from Jack Nicklaus's "Lesson Tee" and John Jacobs "Practical Golf" respectively

"To me the downswing is a REFLEX reaction rather than a conscious action.Once you release the spring that you wound up on your backswing,there is NOT ENOUGH TIME to direct your movement consciously.In the good downswing,the right downswing moves occur AUTOMATICALLY IN REACTION TO PROPER BACKSWING MOVES.
SO IF YOU HAVE A FAULTY DOWNSWING LOOK AT YOUR SETUP OR BACKSWING FOR THE REASON"



"You will also find that the need to unwind is a REFLEX reaction .......This natural reflex reaction is the result of opposing forces acting upon each other irresistibly is the start of the downswing"

If I remember correctly Jimmy Ballard also teaches that the downswing is a reflex reaction to the downswing

Yes the Slicefixer swing takes time effort and knowledge to learn.It is not for someone who wants a quick fix.Instead i suggest that golfers go out and buy the latest DVD or watch the latest youtube video or read the latest article..It is highly probable that you will not make substantial improvement.,but you will not spend much money or time in doing so.
[/quote]

Not sure why you think Malaska is trying to get students to change the downswing on the way down. The intent to stand the club up and keep the club in front of the rear shoulder happens before the downswing starts. And I'm sure Slicefixer would tell you that you could have a "perfect" backswing and still mess up the transition and downswing for any number of reasons.
[/quote]
Maybe I missed it ,but I did not hear anything on the video about standing up the club before the downswing.And by suggesting that this move happens prior to the downswing,you seem to be moving closer to my argument . If the other responses are any indication some feel that they can effect change during the downswing

The central them in the Slicefixer swing is simplicity ,This translates to as few moving parts as is possible.A good backswing creates the conditions for a good transition,thus increasing the probability that a golfer will do so successfully.But nothing is %100.
Some of the tour golfers mentioned a few posts ago have transitions that are to say the least not simple.;however their talent levels are off of the charts and they pull it off.

[Ghost of Snead]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1443977421' post='12408816']
[quote name='Ghost of Snead' timestamp='1443974612' post='12408704']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1443971444' post='12408542']
[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1443933406' post='12407638']
You can work setup and backswing until the cows come home Russ c and when you're done and you still move badly into the ball in transition you'll have to fix that too. That's just making more work. Now I agree if you wanna go all slicefixer and build a theoretical perfect swing and you put in the years of concentrated single minded effort under professional tutelage and you have the talent you can become very good. This thread is not about the theoretical. It's about something that works for certain golfers.
Some arms wings are different from others. You believe and talk of a theoretical ideal or model. In reality unless the years of training have been put in the model does not apply. I also don't buy this concept of after transition nothing can be changed of course it can that's poppycock.
[/quote]
Phil Cheetham of TPI estimates that the downswing takes from 233 ms in a fast downswing to 296 ms in a slow one.To be able to start down and then make corrections in your movement during this period of time is quite an accomplishment


Below are quotes from Jack Nicklaus's "Lesson Tee" and John Jacobs "Practical Golf" respectively

"To me the downswing is a REFLEX reaction rather than a conscious action.Once you release the spring that you wound up on your backswing,there is NOT ENOUGH TIME to direct your movement consciously.In the good downswing,the right downswing moves occur AUTOMATICALLY IN REACTION TO PROPER BACKSWING MOVES.
SO IF YOU HAVE A FAULTY DOWNSWING LOOK AT YOUR SETUP OR BACKSWING FOR THE REASON"



"You will also find that the need to unwind is a REFLEX reaction .......This natural reflex reaction is the result of opposing forces acting upon each other irresistibly is the start of the downswing"

If I remember correctly Jimmy Ballard also teaches that the downswing is a reflex reaction to the downswing

Yes the Slicefixer swing takes time effort and knowledge to learn.It is not for someone who wants a quick fix.Instead i suggest that golfers go out and buy the latest DVD or watch the latest youtube video or read the latest article..It is highly probable that you will not make substantial improvement.,but you will not spend much money or time in doing so.
[/quote]

Not sure why you think Malaska is trying to get students to change the downswing on the way down. The intent to stand the club up and keep the club in front of the rear shoulder happens before the downswing starts. And I'm sure Slicefixer would tell you that you could have a "perfect" backswing and still mess up the transition and downswing for any number of reasons.
[/quote]
Maybe I missed it ,but I did not hear anything on the video about standing up the club before the downswing.And by suggesting that this move happens prior to the downswing,you seem to be moving closer to my argument . If the other responses are any indication some feel that they can effect change during the downswing

The central them in the Slicefixer swing is simplicity ,This translates to as few moving parts as is possible.A good backswing creates the conditions for a good transition,thus increasing the probability that a golfer will do so successfully.But nothing is %100.
Some of the tour golfers mentioned a few posts ago have transitions that are to say the least not simple.;however their talent levels are off of the charts and they pull it off.
[/quote]

Reread the post ... the [u][b]intent[/b][/u] to stand the club up happens before the downswing and is done by moving the hands in toward the rear pocket. It was never said by anyone that the club is stood up prior to the downswing.

And this is not a Slicefixer thread - take the promotion to the 9-3 thread.

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='Ghost of Snead' timestamp='1443975485' post='12408752']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1443974950' post='12408724']
MacKenzie/Como video

The concept presented in this video is well explained If the center of gravity(CG) of the clubhead drops below that of the hand path in early transition, a torque is created that squares up the club WITHOUT ANY ACTIVE CONTROL BY THE GOLFER.
Or in other words if the club is shallowed sufficiently in the early transition,then there is no need for ACTIVE muscular supination to square up the clubhead.

Mr Malaska is suggesting a FEEL of standing up the club to help avoid a stall and "catching up" with the hands .
How do can you shallow the shaft and stand it up at the same time?

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuJaSM7Kexw"]https://www.youtube....h?v=iuJaSM7Kexw[/url]
[/quote]

Can you shallow the shaft in transition and still swing out to right field with your hands moving too far out away from the intended swing arc ?

Can you shallow the shaft in transition with the intent of sticking the butt end of the club in your trail pocket on the way down ? If so, what happens to the shaft when you do so ?
[/quote]
Shallowing the shaft is hardly a panacea for all potential problems and no representation to that effect was made.The point of the video was simple, that a golfer could eliminate the need for active muscular supination to square the clubhead
I would say that shallowing the shaft is a precondition for getting the right elbow on and in front the hip

I include a video of a shallow downswing .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTP7j9fE6D8

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='Ghost of Snead' timestamp='1443977815' post='12408852']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1443977421' post='12408816']
[quote name='Ghost of Snead' timestamp='1443974612' post='12408704']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1443971444' post='12408542']
[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1443933406' post='12407638']
You can work setup and backswing until the cows come home Russ c and when you're done and you still move badly into the ball in transition you'll have to fix that too. That's just making more work. Now I agree if you wanna go all slicefixer and build a theoretical perfect swing and you put in the years of concentrated single minded effort under professional tutelage and you have the talent you can become very good. This thread is not about the theoretical. It's about something that works for certain golfers.
Some arms wings are different from others. You believe and talk of a theoretical ideal or model. In reality unless the years of training have been put in the model does not apply. I also don't buy this concept of after transition nothing can be changed of course it can that's poppycock.
[/quote]
Phil Cheetham of TPI estimates that the downswing takes from 233 ms in a fast downswing to 296 ms in a slow one.To be able to start down and then make corrections in your movement during this period of time is quite an accomplishment


Below are quotes from Jack Nicklaus's "Lesson Tee" and John Jacobs "Practical Golf" respectively

"To me the downswing is a REFLEX reaction rather than a conscious action.Once you release the spring that you wound up on your backswing,there is NOT ENOUGH TIME to direct your movement consciously.In the good downswing,the right downswing moves occur AUTOMATICALLY IN REACTION TO PROPER BACKSWING MOVES.
SO IF YOU HAVE A FAULTY DOWNSWING LOOK AT YOUR SETUP OR BACKSWING FOR THE REASON"



"You will also find that the need to unwind is a REFLEX reaction .......This natural reflex reaction is the result of opposing forces acting upon each other irresistibly is the start of the downswing"

If I remember correctly Jimmy Ballard also teaches that the downswing is a reflex reaction to the downswing

Yes the Slicefixer swing takes time effort and knowledge to learn.It is not for someone who wants a quick fix.Instead i suggest that golfers go out and buy the latest DVD or watch the latest youtube video or read the latest article..It is highly probable that you will not make substantial improvement.,but you will not spend much money or time in doing so.
[/quote]

Not sure why you think Malaska is trying to get students to change the downswing on the way down. The intent to stand the club up and keep the club in front of the rear shoulder happens before the downswing starts. And I'm sure Slicefixer would tell you that you could have a "perfect" backswing and still mess up the transition and downswing for any number of reasons.
[/quote]
Maybe I missed it ,but I did not hear anything on the video about standing up the club before the downswing.And by suggesting that this move happens prior to the downswing,you seem to be moving closer to my argument . If the other responses are any indication some feel that they can effect change during the downswing

The central them in the Slicefixer swing is simplicity ,This translates to as few moving parts as is possible.A good backswing creates the conditions for a good transition,thus increasing the probability that a golfer will do so successfully.But nothing is %100.
Some of the tour golfers mentioned a few posts ago have transitions that are to say the least not simple.;however their talent levels are off of the charts and they pull it off.
[/quote]

Reread the post ... the [u][b]intent[/b][/u] to stand the club up happens before the downswing and is done by moving the hands in toward the rear pocket. It was never said by anyone that the club is stood up prior to the downswing.

And this is not a Slicefixer thread - take the promotion to the 9-3 thread.
[/quote]
Sorry if i misquoted you
I will ask a slightly different question
How is this move consistent with Harvey Pennicks magic move "weight left ,(right) elbow in front pocket or Kelvin Miyahira's "elbow move"

[Ghost of Snead]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1443979112' post='12408906']
Sorry if i misquoted you
I will ask a slightly different question
How is this move consistent with Harvey Pennicks magic move "weight left ,(right) elbow in front pocket or Kelvin Miyahira's "elbow move"
[/quote]

Not familiar with either move - maybe someone else will chime in.

[bph7]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1443978291' post='12408872']
[quote name='Ghost of Snead' timestamp='1443975485' post='12408752']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1443974950' post='12408724']
MacKenzie/Como video

The concept presented in this video is well explained If the center of gravity(CG) of the clubhead drops below that of the hand path in early transition, a torque is created that squares up the club WITHOUT ANY ACTIVE CONTROL BY THE GOLFER.
Or in other words if the club is shallowed sufficiently in the early transition,then there is no need for ACTIVE muscular supination to square up the clubhead.

Mr Malaska is suggesting a FEEL of standing up the club to help avoid a stall and "catching up" with the hands .
How do can you shallow the shaft and stand it up at the same time?

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuJaSM7Kexw"]https://www.youtube....h?v=iuJaSM7Kexw[/url]
[/quote]

Can you shallow the shaft in transition and still swing out to right field with your hands moving too far out away from the intended swing arc ?

Can you shallow the shaft in transition with the intent of sticking the butt end of the club in your trail pocket on the way down ? If so, what happens to the shaft when you do so ?
[/quote]
Shallowing the shaft is hardly a panacea for all potential problems and no representation to that effect was made.The point of the video was simple, that a golfer could eliminate the need for active muscular supination to square the clubhead
I would say that shallowing the shaft is a precondition for getting the right elbow on and in front the hip

I include a video of a shallow downswing .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTP7j9fE6D8
[/quote]

Once again, you confuse flat with shallow. Erickson's AOA with that move HAS to be steep, in fact if you knew what he teaches basically encourages that. The initial "shallowing" to give the flat, leveraged "angle hingy" look basically requires a steepening move from p6 to impact so you get no benefits of shallow delivery.

The last pages of this thread have been a total mess of misinterpretation and misunderstanding and basically shows what happens when non instructors theorize on their own, but I could not avoid commenting on yet another person thinking that erickson's aoa is shallow. It just isn't..

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1443980799' post='12408978']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1443978291' post='12408872']
[quote name='Ghost of Snead' timestamp='1443975485' post='12408752']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1443974950' post='12408724']
MacKenzie/Como video

The concept presented in this video is well explained If the center of gravity(CG) of the clubhead drops below that of the hand path in early transition, a torque is created that squares up the club WITHOUT ANY ACTIVE CONTROL BY THE GOLFER.
Or in other words if the club is shallowed sufficiently in the early transition,then there is no need for ACTIVE muscular supination to square up the clubhead.

Mr Malaska is suggesting a FEEL of standing up the club to help avoid a stall and "catching up" with the hands .
How do can you shallow the shaft and stand it up at the same time?

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuJaSM7Kexw"]https://www.youtube....h?v=iuJaSM7Kexw[/url]
[/quote]

Can you shallow the shaft in transition and still swing out to right field with your hands moving too far out away from the intended swing arc ?

Can you shallow the shaft in transition with the intent of sticking the butt end of the club in your trail pocket on the way down ? If so, what happens to the shaft when you do so ?
[/quote]
Shallowing the shaft is hardly a panacea for all potential problems and no representation to that effect was made.The point of the video was simple, that a golfer could eliminate the need for active muscular supination to square the clubhead
I would say that shallowing the shaft is a precondition for getting the right elbow on and in front the hip

I include a video of a shallow downswing .
[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTP7j9fE6D8"]https://www.youtube....h?v=GTP7j9fE6D8[/url]
[/quote]

Once again, you confuse flat with shallow. Erickson's AOA with that move HAS to be steep, in fact if you knew what he teaches basically encourages that. The initial "shallowing" to give the flat, leveraged "angle hingy" look basically requires a steepening move from p6 to impact so you get no benefits of shallow delivery.

The last pages of this thread have been a total mess of misinterpretation and misunderstanding and basically shows what happens when non instructors theorize on their own, but I could not avoid commenting on yet another person thinking that erickson's aoa is shallow. It just isn't..
[/quote]
I NEVER mentioned AOA in any of my posts on this subject,since AOA is generally considered to be a Trackman impact calculation

I CONSISTENTLY referred to shallowing in transition which was the same concept that was discussed in the Mackenzie/Como video

I politely suggest that you take another look at Mr Erickson's transition and then tell me that he did not shallow a great deal in transition.Does this necessarily translate to shallow AOA numbers on Trackman.NOT necessaily.I would make the same argument with Sergio,whose AOA numbers are supposedly steep

.My point was and is that any issues need to be fixed before the downswing starts since the downswing takes less than .3 of a second.I know that Slicefixer agrees with this.And evidently so does Mr Nicklaus and John Jacobs among probably many,many others.Since you disapproved of my posts,you probably are among those who think that that they can effect changes in the less than .3 of the downswing.I wish you the best of luck in doing so
Hit it dead,solid ,perfect
Russ


A

[Hoganstriker]

Perfect setup plus perfect backswing plus garbage transition equals piss poor golfer. Over time we see infinite backswings playing pro golf because of proper transition moves. If the Malaska move in transition early downswing works I say do it.
This Russc mythical theoretical perfect swing doesn't exist. Working on backswing without focus on ds is not gonna make a player.
Nobody's ever gonna get this perfect swing ideal of a perfect bs and an uncompensated perfect ds or at least 99.9% of people won't so why bother trying?

[Hoganstriker]

No matter what bs you have you still have to transition and start the ds and it's not automatic. If your bs is pretty consistent you should work on finding the transition early downswing move to match up and recover yourself into decent position.
There's no perfect swing Russ sorry it only lives in your mind. You could look at all your posts and basically you're saying "well you wouldn't need to do that move if you were swinging perfectly"
No kidding.

[Slothead]

[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1443987480' post='12409256']
[b]No matter what bs you have you still have to transition and start the ds and it's not automatic.[/b] If your bs is pretty consistent you should work on finding the transition early downswing move to match up and recover yourself into decent position.
There's no perfect swing Russ sorry it only lives in your mind. You could look at all your posts and basically you're saying "well you wouldn't need to do that move if you were swinging perfectly"
No kidding.
[/quote]
[attachment=2980000:frost.jpg]

[pingfool]

malaska just offering a different "swing thought" - or way to correct a flaw

I spent 20+ years with a flat (laid off) swing - and played some pretty good golf

but its never-ending battle of hold off blocks and catch up flips - when club gets stuck

standing the club up on the bs is not a radical concept - certainly worth trying if you think you still have room to improve

otherwise keep doing what you do - and hope you can putt your way to a decent score

[robbohank]

[quote name='verderraul' timestamp='1443965146' post='12408224']
[quote name='verderraul' timestamp='1443798032' post='12400344']
[quote name='robbohank' timestamp='1443749314' post='12398498']
As expected.......what I feel like I'm doing (hands in clubhead out during transition) vs what actually happens just don't match. Based on some of my prior videos I do think I'm a little less underplane in the initial downswing but obviously more work to do.

[url="https://youtu.be/4zcLGC9Hb1U"]https://youtu.be/4zcLGC9Hb1U[/url]
[/quote]

Great compact action sir.....you shallow it Sergio style.
[/quote]
[quote name='verderraul' timestamp='1443798032' post='12400344']
[quote name='robbohank' timestamp='1443749314' post='12398498']
As expected.......what I feel like I'm doing (hands in clubhead out during transition) vs what actually happens just don't match. Based on some of my prior videos I do think I'm a little less underplane in the initial downswing but obviously more work to do.

[url="https://youtu.be/4zcLGC9Hb1U"]https://youtu.be/4zcLGC9Hb1U[/url]
[/quote]

Great compact action sir.....you shallow it Sergio style.
[/quote]

I drew some lines....shaft at address....shaft at 9 o clock in back swing and downswing. I don't see much difference at all. You still have the great swing as before
[/quote]

verderraul.....thanks for the compliment but I assure you my swing needs some work. I agree in general with your before/after analysis but I haven't had a chance to work on the MM swing thought for more than one range session. I knew things hadn't changed a lot.....perhaps even less than I thought. I don't know that the impact position will look much different, I'm simply looking to get there with more pop and I'd like to see less divergence from the "DTL plane-line" on the downswing AND the thru-swing. I got a chance to hit about 30 balls this morning working on a slight change to my backswing. It 'felt" like it helped me utilize MM's downswing intentions more effectively and possibly be less draggy/under-plane (didn't take any video). I think most golfers use swing thoughts which imo are simply swing intentions. I disagree that you can't use a swing-thought to actually affect what happens from transition into impact. At the same time I think you can make backswing tweaks that can help with the DS. I'd like to work on this for a week or 2 and post another video then to see if things are visually different. I assure you the divot depth and ball flight was different.

Not trying to derail this thread with an analysis of my swing but thanks for your (and others) input.

[Llortamaisey]

[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1443987291' post='12409242']Perfect setup plus perfect backswing plus garbage transition equals piss poor golfer.[/quote]

I'm living proof.

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='Llortamaisey' timestamp='1443990362' post='12409370']
[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1443987291' post='12409242']Perfect setup plus perfect backswing plus garbage transition equals piss poor golfer.[/quote]

I'm living proof.
[/quote]
It would be instructive for all us to see your swing

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='sethdavidsdad' timestamp='1443922349' post='12407092']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1443921681' post='12407050'][quote name='thekru' timestamp='1443918482' post='12406840']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1443893106' post='12405558']
Just one questions for all of you .

If your arms are in front and in synch with your torso going back.and remain so in transition .why do you want or have to do anything more?
[/quote]

What??? Maybe those of us in this discussion are not so fortunate. I would think we would all like to be in sync back and through then we would not have to do anything. In case you haven't noticed most people struggle with the golf swing. Do you have a point russc?
[/quote]

I think maybe russ just meant why not deal with the root cause instead of the symptom? Makes sense to me. Law of cause and effect, and things are happening more slowly in the backswing, why not fix that if you are stuck or too flat with the shaft at the Top rather than try to manipulate the club in a tiny fraction of a second?

Seems like a valid point to me.[/quote]
Jim I agree if there is something causing it in the backswing. But most better players are not stuck because of the backswing. Tiger for instance never heard anyone say his backswing sucks.
[/quote]


Yes - I agree it is certainly possible to have Transition stuck issues. But mid to high handicaps tend to have stuck issues more from the backswing, which is why I agreed with russc.

I think what is being overlooked here by some posters is that what Malaska was prescribing to his student was a "swing corrective drill" - NOT an "ideal" or "model" Transition move. He said so very clearly at the start of the video. It is just one way to counter-act the tendency to be too flat at the Top or during Transition.

Its an Exagerration Intention drill meant ONLY for those golfers who struggle with that issue.

[bph7]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1443985926' post='12409164']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1443980799' post='12408978']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1443978291' post='12408872']
[quote name='Ghost of Snead' timestamp='1443975485' post='12408752']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1443974950' post='12408724']
MacKenzie/Como video

The concept presented in this video is well explained If the center of gravity(CG) of the clubhead drops below that of the hand path in early transition, a torque is created that squares up the club WITHOUT ANY ACTIVE CONTROL BY THE GOLFER.
Or in other words if the club is shallowed sufficiently in the early transition,then there is no need for ACTIVE muscular supination to square up the clubhead.

Mr Malaska is suggesting a FEEL of standing up the club to help avoid a stall and "catching up" with the hands .
How do can you shallow the shaft and stand it up at the same time?

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuJaSM7Kexw"]https://www.youtube....h?v=iuJaSM7Kexw[/url]
[/quote]

Can you shallow the shaft in transition and still swing out to right field with your hands moving too far out away from the intended swing arc ?

Can you shallow the shaft in transition with the intent of sticking the butt end of the club in your trail pocket on the way down ? If so, what happens to the shaft when you do so ?
[/quote]
Shallowing the shaft is hardly a panacea for all potential problems and no representation to that effect was made.The point of the video was simple, that a golfer could eliminate the need for active muscular supination to square the clubhead
I would say that shallowing the shaft is a precondition for getting the right elbow on and in front the hip

I include a video of a shallow downswing .
[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTP7j9fE6D8"]https://www.youtube....h?v=GTP7j9fE6D8[/url]
[/quote]

Once again, you confuse flat with shallow. Erickson's AOA with that move HAS to be steep, in fact if you knew what he teaches basically encourages that. The initial "shallowing" to give the flat, leveraged "angle hingy" look basically requires a steepening move from p6 to impact so you get no benefits of shallow delivery.

The last pages of this thread have been a total mess of misinterpretation and misunderstanding and basically shows what happens when non instructors theorize on their own, but I could not avoid commenting on yet another person thinking that erickson's aoa is shallow. It just isn't..
[/quote]
I NEVER mentioned AOA in any of my posts on this subject,since AOA is generally considered to be a Trackman impact calculation

I CONSISTENTLY referred to shallowing in transition which was the same concept that was discussed in the Mackenzie/Como video

I politely suggest that you take another look at Mr Erickson's transition and then tell me that he did not shallow a great deal in transition.Does this necessarily translate to shallow AOA numbers on Trackman.NOT necessaily.I would make the same argument with Sergio,whose AOA numbers are supposedly steep

.My point was and is that any issues need to be fixed before the downswing starts since the downswing takes less than .3 of a second.I know that Slicefixer agrees with this.And evidently so does Mr Nicklaus and John Jacobs among probably many,many others.Since you disapproved of my posts,you probably are among those who think that that they can effect changes in the less than .3 of the downswing.I wish you the best of luck in doing so
Hit it dead,solid ,perfect
Russ


A
[/quote]

I don't have disagree that backswing is important, but the fact the downswing is fast doesn't mean you can't have swing thoughts. As you know, I have worked with Geoff a number of times and the vast majority of the time was spent with me on the downswing (specifically right shoulder and lead hip), so It's certainly not like Geoff only works on grip/setup/bs like sometimes others imply.

Yes, Sergio does have a steep aoa, which results in him being one of the most inefficient players on tour in terms of distance given his clubhead speed. He's still a great player obviously, but it doesn't change the fact that most other tour players with shallower AoAs would hit it further given his swing speed. Because he can make it work is more of a testament to his tremendous talent than an endorsement of steep aoa.

Finally, you don't entirely understand the Como Mckenzie video, and it's not entirely your fault because I believe the video overstates the premise. But having talked with someone has worked with Sasho, the point they are trying to make is that, if the clubhead is under the handpath as they describe, a torque is supplied with works in the direction of squaring the face. This does NOT necessarily mean that the face will square automatically. It would square automatically IF the torque supplied were sufficient to do so, but it might not be, in which case there would need to be additional force supplied by the golfer to square the face. So the clubhead under path MAY supply the torque to square the face without anything else, but it does not have to, it will depend on the golfer. Every good golfer analyzed by the more sophisticated systems shows a significant amount of right arm straightening, however, so it seems to be that the torque is likely insufficient by itself for most. Who knows though, it's complicated, and the true conclusions are much more nuanced than you are representing.

[Llortamaisey]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1443990886' post='12409398'][quote name='Llortamaisey' timestamp='1443990362' post='12409370']
[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1443987291' post='12409242']Perfect setup plus perfect backswing plus garbage transition equals piss poor golfer.[/quote]

I'm living proof.
[/quote]
It would be instructive for all us to see your swing[/quote]

I'm on the mobile app and it doesn't look like it will let me upload video. PM me your email and I will send it to you from my phone.

[golow]

My son's instructor want him to feel supination/knuckles down in the downswing on his Driver/3W because he gets underplane in transition and loses pressure point #3. He shows my son the effect in slow motion of not only keeping the face square but equal in rpm's with his body rotation. He explains and shows the tipping out of the shaft or club head to ball while hands stay in .... basically another version of the Malaska stuff.

He knows my son won't/can't do his in the downswing but he further explains that the intent from the top will keep the club from ever getting open and under the hands.

Intent is the key to set up the downswing.

golow(TM)

[Ted Williams]

None of this makes any sense at all

[sethdavidsdad]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1443992339' post='12409480'][quote name='sethdavidsdad' timestamp='1443922349' post='12407092']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1443921681' post='12407050'][quote name='thekru' timestamp='1443918482' post='12406840']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1443893106' post='12405558']
Just one questions for all of you .

If your arms are in front and in synch with your torso going back.and remain so in transition .why do you want or have to do anything more?
[/quote]

What??? Maybe those of us in this discussion are not so fortunate. I would think we would all like to be in sync back and through then we would not have to do anything. In case you haven't noticed most people struggle with the golf swing. Do you have a point russc?
[/quote]

I think maybe russ just meant why not deal with the root cause instead of the symptom? Makes sense to me. Law of cause and effect, and things are happening more slowly in the backswing, why not fix that if you are stuck or too flat with the shaft at the Top rather than try to manipulate the club in a tiny fraction of a second?

Seems like a valid point to me.[/quote]
Jim I agree if there is something causing it in the backswing. But most better players are not stuck because of the backswing. Tiger for instance never heard anyone say his backswing sucks.
[/quote]


Yes - I agree it is certainly possible to have Transition stuck issues. But mid to high handicaps tend to have stuck issues more from the backswing, which is why I agreed with russc.

I think what is being overlooked here by some posters is that what Malaska was prescribing to his student was a "swing corrective drill" - NOT an "ideal" or "model" Transition move. He said so very clearly at the start of the video. It is just one way to counter-act the tendency to be too flat at the Top or during Transition.

Its an Exagerration Intention drill meant ONLY for those golfers who struggle with that issue.[/quote]
Jim I agree with what you are saying. This is just just a drill and over exaggerated move. But that is not what Russ is saying. Just saying make a better backswing is poison for the masses. There can be backswing flaws but a perfect backswing is far from creating the perfect golf swing.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='Ted Williams' timestamp='1444005810' post='12410272']
None of this makes any sense at all
[/quote]
Why? Malaska is helping a flaw specific type player. RussC chimes in and poses an either-or scenario. The idea helps better players for the most part who fight the lefts or big blocks. Malaska's thought/feel/intent is MUCH more beneficial for me than the MacKenzie left wrist flexion swallowing crowd.

[verderraul]

[quote name='sethdavidsdad' timestamp='1444007272' post='12410404']
Jim I agree with what you are saying. This is just just a drill and over exaggerated move. But that is not what Russ is saying. Just saying make a better backswing is poison for the masses. There can be backswing flaws but a perfect backswing is far from creating the perfect golf swing.
[/quote]

"Just saying make a better backswing is poison for the masses". Thats an extreme statement

I am yet to see video evidence of how this has helped people. Someone who was chronically stuck and became unstuck.

[sethdavidsdad]

[quote name='verderraul' timestamp='1444008011' post='12410460'][quote name='sethdavidsdad' timestamp='1444007272' post='12410404']
Jim I agree with what you are saying. This is just just a drill and over exaggerated move. But that is not what Russ is saying. Just saying make a better backswing is poison for the masses. There can be backswing flaws but a perfect backswing is far from creating the perfect golf swing.
[/quote]

"Just saying make a better backswing is poison for the masses". Thats an extreme statement

I am yet to see video evidence of how this has helped people. Someone who was chronically stuck and became unstuck.[/quote]
You make a valid point maybe someone who it has helped will post a video.

Personally I get tired of instructors that say fix your backswing when clearly very few on tour have similar backswings. If you see someone with a severe under plane hook, telling them to fix there backswing is just wrong and usually done by someone that can't fix it or wants to sell more lessons.

[verderraul]

[quote name='sethdavidsdad' timestamp='1444008752' post='12410522']
[quote name='verderraul' timestamp='1444008011' post='12410460'][quote name='sethdavidsdad' timestamp='1444007272' post='12410404']
Jim I agree with what you are saying. This is just just a drill and over exaggerated move. But that is not what Russ is saying. Just saying make a better backswing is poison for the masses. There can be backswing flaws but a perfect backswing is far from creating the perfect golf swing.
[/quote]

"Just saying make a better backswing is poison for the masses". Thats an extreme statement

I am yet to see video evidence of how this has helped people. Someone who was chronically stuck and became unstuck.[/quote]
You make a valid point maybe someone who it has helped will post a video.

Personally I get tired of instructors that say fix your backswing when clearly very few on tour have similar backswings. If you see someone with a severe under plane hook, telling them to fix there backswing is just wrong and usually done by someone that can't fix it or wants to sell more lessons.
[/quote]

The reason i ask for a video is that i dont often see amateurs loading the club in transition. And here are bunch of wrxers going crazy about a drill that tells you to dump the load right away.
I just watched a video of MM with long driver Dobyn (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0iUwD28CZE) . Dobyn shows what the amateurs do wrong....and its basically the move that MM is advocating LOL

This "feel" might work for advanced players but more the vaaaaast majority....it wont lead to a good impact.

[slantsflood]

You guys are really complicating and dissecting things. This started out a really simple move for a lot of people that needed help. And for the people that are trying this, they may be having doubts because of all the back and forths. If I had to, I would guess that the people arguing have pretty good swings and aren't going to use this swing anyway. It's a shame good threads get ruined by this. Its one of the reasons I don't come to this area of the site as much.

[Ghost of Snead]

[quote name='slantsflood' timestamp='1444010334' post='12410658']
You guys are really complicating and dissecting things. This started out a really simple move for a lot of people that needed help. And for the people that are trying this, they may be having doubts because of all the back and forths. If I had to, I would guess that the people arguing have pretty good swings and aren't going to use this swing anyway. It's a shame good threads get ruined by this. Its one of the reasons I don't come to this area of the site as much.
[/quote]

Slants, the proof is in the ball flight. This forum is and always will be a discussion of why a feel may or may not work for some and pro/con opinions are always welcome. I have noticed that a couple of good players on the thread are already using the feel.

[sethdavidsdad]

[quote name='verderraul' timestamp='1444010268' post='12410654'][quote name='sethdavidsdad' timestamp='1444008752' post='12410522']
[quote name='verderraul' timestamp='1444008011' post='12410460'][quote name='sethdavidsdad' timestamp='1444007272' post='12410404']
Jim I agree with what you are saying. This is just just a drill and over exaggerated move. But that is not what Russ is saying. Just saying make a better backswing is poison for the masses. There can be backswing flaws but a perfect backswing is far from creating the perfect golf swing.
[/quote]

"Just saying make a better backswing is poison for the masses". Thats an extreme statement

I am yet to see video evidence of how this has helped people. Someone who was chronically stuck and became unstuck.[/quote]
You make a valid point maybe someone who it has helped will post a video.

Personally I get tired of instructors that say fix your backswing when clearly very few on tour have similar backswings. If you see someone with a severe under plane hook, telling them to fix there backswing is just wrong and usually done by someone that can't fix it or wants to sell more lessons.
[/quote]

The reason i ask for a video is that i dont often see amateurs loading the club in transition. And here are bunch of wrxers going crazy about a drill that tells you to dump the load right away.
I just watched a video of MM with long driver Dobyn (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0iUwD28CZE) . Dobyn shows what the amateurs do wrong....and its basically the move that MM is advocating LOL

This "feel" might work for advanced players but more the vaaaaast majority....it wont lead to a good impact.[/quote]
Haha I noticed that as well.

[Ghost of Snead]

[quote name='sethdavidsdad' timestamp='1444010755' post='12410686']
[quote name='verderraul' timestamp='1444010268' post='12410654'][quote name='sethdavidsdad' timestamp='1444008752' post='12410522']
[quote name='verderraul' timestamp='1444008011' post='12410460'][quote name='sethdavidsdad' timestamp='1444007272' post='12410404']
Jim I agree with what you are saying. This is just just a drill and over exaggerated move. But that is not what Russ is saying. Just saying make a better backswing is poison for the masses. There can be backswing flaws but a perfect backswing is far from creating the perfect golf swing.
[/quote]

"Just saying make a better backswing is poison for the masses". Thats an extreme statement

I am yet to see video evidence of how this has helped people. Someone who was chronically stuck and became unstuck.[/quote]
You make a valid point maybe someone who it has helped will post a video.

Personally I get tired of instructors that say fix your backswing when clearly very few on tour have similar backswings. If you see someone with a severe under plane hook, telling them to fix there backswing is just wrong and usually done by someone that can't fix it or wants to sell more lessons.
[/quote]

The reason i ask for a video is that i dont often see amateurs loading the club in transition. And here are bunch of wrxers going crazy about a drill that tells you to dump the load right away.
I just watched a video of MM with long driver Dobyn ([url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0iUwD28CZE"]https://www.youtube....h?v=Y0iUwD28CZE[/url]) . Dobyn shows what the amateurs do wrong....and its basically the move that MM is advocating LOL

This "feel" might work for advanced players but more the vaaaaast majority....it wont lead to a good impact.[/quote]
Haha I noticed that as well.
[/quote]

Watch again starting at 2:00 or so ...