Mike Malaska - Getting the club in front of you. Made easy...

[dslatt33]

Agreed, I also don't think the book is a good as his youtube videos on the subject. I would advise anyone who purchase his book to also check out the youtube videos especially the ones where he is doing lessons. So much easier to follow what he's trying to get you to do then the photos in the book.

[chigolfer1]

Does the book in any way address steep/OTT swings? I'm not trying to get the info without buying the book but, as you've seen, this seems to be the main point of confusion.



[quote name='dslatt33' timestamp='1444325082' post='12428486']
Agreed, I also don't think the book is a good as his youtube videos on the subject. I would advise anyone who purchase his book to also check out the youtube videos especially the ones where he is doing lessons. So much easier to follow what he's trying to get you to do then the photos in the book.
[/quote]

[ofortuna]

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems this key of turning the steering wheel LEFT is great for those without enough left forearm rotation blended with the transition and throughout the downswing. Seems it would be a death move for those who have too much.

What I'm taking away from this is: [b]Have the correct amount of left forearm rotation blended into the downswing.[/b]

[dslatt33]

From what I recall the book does not specifically address steep/OTT swings. But the move from the top of the backswing in which the hands move down towards the right pocket and the clubface momentum brings it out to the ball should cure an OTT move.


On a side note Brian Manzella and Michael Jacobs have been teaching this swing since 2009. I took a lesson with Michael back then and he phrased the move as a steepening of the left arm from the top so the hands moved more down towards your feet and the clubs momentum swung out to the ball. The right hand was more active threw impact as you didn't maintain right wrist angle but more threw the right hand into impact creating speed. I haven't checked recently but, back then both guys had lots of youtube videos addressing this swing and more specifically the move from the top into impact.

[JW223]

[quote name='chigolfer1' timestamp='1444326817' post='12428618']
Does the book in any way address steep/OTT swings? I'm not trying to get the info without buying the book but, as you've seen, this seems to be the main point of confusion.
[/quote]

Not sure about the book. But check out Malaska's YouTube channel. There were recently some lessons with a guy named Dan Murphy, who has a steep transition. The prescription is the same... hands in, clubhead out.

[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1444327167' post='12428646']
What I'm taking away from this is: [b]Have the correct amount of left forearm rotation blended into the downswing.[/b]
[/quote]

I agree. And proper hand path.

[gators78]

[quote name='dslatt33' timestamp='1444329860' post='12428870']
On a side note Brian Manzella and Michael Jacobs have been teaching this swing since 2009.
[/quote]

It is very close to the Manzella stuff (and a few other guys) although I think 1) Malaska nailed it with the imagery of the heel to the ground, that was the stability I was seriously lacking with the tumble and 2) Brian and Mike did themselves zero favors with the descriptions, e.g. alphanumeric beta torque application or whatever it was called.

[Grayback1973]

[quote name='chigolfer1' timestamp='1444321150' post='12428162']You missed the whole second part of Schnee's swing thought though. After shallowing, turn through like a baseball swing which would definitely turn the wheel left.

I have rewatched several of his videos and I still think that for the most part, he's directing this to people who get the club way behind them and flat and stuck. This feel is meant to offset it and the result is a perfect on plane swing. For the start of the DS, if you are chronic steep and OTT, I just don't think it applies, at least not for the first part of the DS. I would sure like to see a lesson from Mike with an OTT player because in all of his examples, the player has the same club stuck behind "good player" issue.



[quote name='FatReed' timestamp='1444276969' post='12426148']
Problem is Schnee is describing the exact opposite intent; turning steering wheel RIGHT, whereas Malaska describes turning it LEFT.

Hence, the 'divide' you describe is different golfers with different swings that entail different intents.
[/quote][/quote]I would bet that he only works with better players.Probably a specialist.

[Millbrook]

[quote name='JW223' timestamp='1444330452' post='12428938']
[quote name='chigolfer1' timestamp='1444326817' post='12428618']
Does the book in any way address steep/OTT swings? I'm not trying to get the info without buying the book but, as you've seen, this seems to be the main point of confusion.
[/quote]

Not sure about the book. But check out Malaska's YouTube channel. There were recently some lessons with a guy named Dan Murphy, who has a steep transition. The prescription is the same... hands in, clubhead out.

[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1444327167' post='12428646']
What I'm taking away from this is: [b]Have the correct amount of left forearm rotation blended into the downswing.[/b]
[/quote]

I agree. And proper hand path.
[/quote]

Could not agree more.

The whole 'stand the club up ' was a feel for the too shallow player. He doesn't mention this to Dan - just happened to be watching the video.

The key for all is 'the hands go down and the club goes out'.

Here is one of the videos with Dan;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8ACufeOZTk

Some interesting comments on release and Jack Nicklaus saying 'you can't release too early'.

[jbw749]

[quote name='Amalaska5' timestamp='1442988060' post='12354486']
Hello golfwrx community! I'm Mikes daughter, Ashley Moss. Glad to see that everyone seems to be enjoying his instruction! I know I'm a little bias, but he's the absolute best when it comes to finding the most successful ways to help each individual student. Not to mention he has a passion for the game that is infectious.

I've obviously grown up around the game and have had the opportunity to learn from some of the best players and teachers in the industry. I am now an instructor myself and because of my dads 40 years of experience trying to figure out what helps people the most, I am able to have an extremely successful career.

Some of you have been asking if he has taught what you are seeing in the video for more than just the last year and the answer is yes. Maybe has been explained differently but his philosophy has always been the same. It's not a method he teaches but the idea that no two people are the same and everyone has their own athletic DNA, or "athletic personality" as he refers to it in his book. His knowledge of the body and the physics behind a golf swing are what has helped him understand the best ways to maximize the use of the golf club with minimum effort on the students part.

Most importantly, he doesn't claim that he has come up with the latest and greatest way to swing a golf club. From 40 years of studying, experiencing, and even some trial and error, he has put together what he believes to be the most efficient way to utilize the golf club and simple physics. He has studied other instructors, players, methods, etc and molded the best information together to explain what you are actually trying to accomplish when hitting a golf ball. Then, explains what you have to feel in order to make that happen.

It makes me very happy to read that he has been able to shed some light on some of these misconceptions and help you become better golfers!
[/quote]

Ashley, has your dad given any thought to starting his own forum?

[dslatt33]

[quote name='gators78' timestamp='1444332009' post='12429066']
[quote name='dslatt33' timestamp='1444329860' post='12428870']
On a side note Brian Manzella and Michael Jacobs have been teaching this swing since 2009.
[/quote]

It is very close to the Manzella stuff (and a few other guys) although I think 1) Malaska nailed it with the imagery of the heel to the ground, that was the stability I was seriously lacking with the tumble and 2) Brian and Mike did themselves zero favors with the descriptions, e.g. alphanumeric beta torque application or whatever it was called.
[/quote]



Totally agree with you. When these guys came out with this concept of tumbling and not holding onto angles I was all in and started playing the best golf I've ever played, even lowered my handicap to single digits. Then they followed with beta torque and ground force and lost me. In my opinion Mike Malaska'a youtube videos does the best job (even better then his book) of describing what you need to do on your downswing to accomplish this technique.

[thekru]

[quote name='dslatt33' timestamp='1444347769' post='12430084']
[quote name='gators78' timestamp='1444332009' post='12429066']
[quote name='dslatt33' timestamp='1444329860' post='12428870']
On a side note Brian Manzella and Michael Jacobs have been teaching this swing since 2009.
[/quote]

It is very close to the Manzella stuff (and a few other guys) although I think 1) Malaska nailed it with the imagery of the heel to the ground, that was the stability I was seriously lacking with the tumble and 2) Brian and Mike did themselves zero favors with the descriptions, e.g. alphanumeric beta torque application or whatever it was called.
[/quote]



Totally agree with you. When these guys came out with this concept of tumbling and not holding onto angles I was all in and started playing the best golf I've ever played, even lowered my handicap to single digits. Then they followed with beta torque and ground force and lost me. In my opinion Mike Malaska'a youtube videos does the best job (even better then his book) of describing what you need to do on your downswing to accomplish this technique.
[/quote]

Isn't some of this stuff like Jimmy Ballard saying, "spring the shaft'. Ballard likes to use the same split grip drill that Malaska is doing.

[sethdavidsdad]

For the OTT swingers, would the intent of starting the club head down outside the hands help prevent the hard shoulder turn?
For me, a steep and then stuck under swinger, the thought of club starting out early helps keep my shoulders from turning hard early.

[solarbear88]

I wonder if good golfers, people who caught on quickly, instinctively move the club so it is more weightless at the beginning of their downswing...
And if hackers spend most of their golfing lives fighting the weight of the club...
?

[Hoganstriker]

For me Malaska has brought to light that there's not enough down in many amateurs downswings.

[jbw749]

[quote name='sethdavidsdad' timestamp='1444348740' post='12430150']
For the OTT swingers, would the intent of starting the club head down outside the hands help prevent the hard shoulder turn?
For me, a steep and then stuck under swinger, the thought of club starting out early helps keep my shoulders from turning hard early.
[/quote]

The Malaska move gives the intent of standing up the shaft getting the hands in clubhead out creating wicked arm speed using the clubhead momentum.

The standard OTT swinger stands up the shaft as a result of other swing flaws probably big muscles firing out racing arms.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[sethdavidsdad]

[quote name='jbw749' timestamp='1444350580' post='12430274'][quote name='sethdavidsdad' timestamp='1444348740' post='12430150']
For the OTT swingers, would the intent of starting the club head down outside the hands help prevent the hard shoulder turn?
For me, a steep and then stuck under swinger, the thought of club starting out early helps keep my shoulders from turning hard early.
[/quote]

The Malaska move gives the intent of standing up the shaft getting the hands in clubhead out creating wicked arm speed using the clubhead momentum.

The standard OTT swinger stands up the shaft as a result of other swing flaws probably big muscles firing out racing arms.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.[/quote]
That's what I mean, would the club getting outside the hands or standing the club up help prevent the hard turn of the shoulders that causes over the top?

[Ted Williams]

Interesting to read that many of you have had prior one on one instruction prior to this thread.This only verifies to me that with all the confusion here in person instruction just isn't working

[Golfbeat]

[quote name='jbw749' timestamp='1444350580' post='12430274']
[quote name='sethdavidsdad' timestamp='1444348740' post='12430150']
For the OTT swingers, would the intent of starting the club head down outside the hands help prevent the hard shoulder turn?
For me, a steep and then stuck under swinger, the thought of club starting out early helps keep my shoulders from turning hard early.
[/quote]

The Malaska move gives the intent of standing up the shaft getting the hands in clubhead out creating wicked arm speed using the clubhead momentum.

The standard OTT swinger stands up the shaft as a result of other swing flaws probably big muscles firing out racing arms.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
[/quote]

I think that both good players and OTT players stand up the shaft. The good players move their pelvis correctly to 10.30 in the downswing which keeps the upper body and right shoulder stable. The OTT players move instead their upper body/right shoulder first.

[Tanner25]

[quote name='Millbrook' timestamp='1444332511' post='12429118']
[quote name='JW223' timestamp='1444330452' post='12428938']
[quote name='chigolfer1' timestamp='1444326817' post='12428618']
Does the book in any way address steep/OTT swings? I'm not trying to get the info without buying the book but, as you've seen, this seems to be the main point of confusion.
[/quote]

Not sure about the book. But check out Malaska's YouTube channel. There were recently some lessons with a guy named Dan Murphy, who has a steep transition. The prescription is the same... hands in, clubhead out.

[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1444327167' post='12428646']
What I'm taking away from this is: [b]Have the correct amount of left forearm rotation blended into the downswing.[/b]
[/quote]

I agree. And proper hand path.
[/quote]

Could not agree more.

The whole 'stand the club up ' was a feel for the too shallow player. He doesn't mention this to Dan - just happened to be watching the video.

The key for all is 'the hands go down and the club goes out'.

Here is one of the videos with Dan;

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8ACufeOZTk"]https://www.youtube....h?v=k8ACufeOZTk[/url]

Some interesting comments on release and Jack Nicklaus saying 'you can't release too early'.
[/quote]

If this hockey move is done properly. Does one have to worry about starting the downswing with a lower body move (ground up)?

[CrabDaddy]

At the risk of being redundant and unnecessarily repetitive, QB74 posted this in another thread: http://montescheinblum.com/blog/2012/09/10/the-left-arm/
I thought it fit in here quite well. The idea of rolling the left arm "up" the chest in the bs and down in the chest in the ds is basically the same move as Malaska's. (I quoted "up" because the only up is basically how much the left arm moves when rotating ~90 degrees)
This felt very flat (Kuchar-esque), but actually was not. A couple things I noticed from incorporating this feel, which has improved my swing recently - it feels like a very inside hand path, keeping the left arm "connected" to the chest keeps the hands low and the shoulders steeper, I needed to marry this takeaway with a little more wrist-c0ck (feels a bit like old Rickie looked), I want to make sure I get a full 90 deg of left arm rotation in the bs so I can go harder in the ds, left arm rolling down the chest in ds means hands start down (feel - hands have to work out, but not too much too soon), hands starting down means club approaching the ball from the inside and seems to keep my right hip from moving forward too soon. The lazier the transition, the better the result. This obviously keeps the hand path lower and more inside the ball (my hands always moved out too much) which means more PA3 and less handle dragging.
Some guys in this thread have focused on the club head working outside the hands in the ds. IMHO, this is the part of MM's move that is 100% feel, possibly to counter re-rotating the L arm too late - if you focus on re-rotating the L arm from transition/roll it down the chest/turn the steering wheel, the club head takes care of itself.
Hope this helped somebody - if not, I have it written down for next Spring!

[Golfbeat]

I think that better players with good flexibility and who started at a young er age will have their lower body probably correctly on automatic. My own issue was the dreaded ballerina move which basically moves the pelvis to first to 1.30/12 instead of straight to 10.30. In my personal case, I think that it is a combination of poor flexibility and simply not being trained in the Zipper Away move. Perhaps the fact that I started golf at 42 does not help.

[Golfbeat]

At 2:30 Mike talks about the lower body correctly moving away from the ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RazJ5ghVi3c

[Hot Rod 71]

^^This is something I've had to work on; EE has hindered my ball striking for a long time. Some days its worse than others.

Working on this concept, along with "the hands go down and the club goes out", has helped my swing and improved my ball striking.

[ryan983]

[quote name='Ted Williams' timestamp='1444388290' post='12431948']
Interesting to read that many of you have had prior one on one instruction prior to this thread.This only verifies to me that with all the confusion here in person instruction just isn't working
[/quote]

I would agree of there are plenty of guys out there giving in person lessons that shouldn't be but to say in person lessons don't work is a little too far reaching.

I'd say this thread just shows a few different things.

1. how quickly people are willing to chase the next magic move or new concept.

2. if you show a group of 10 people a you tube video on how to do move X, more than likely all of them will have a different feel of how to perform that move. What they feel like they are doing is probably not at all what they are doing. And there's a good chance said move isn't the best way to fix their biggest flaw.

3. You need to find a knowledgeable instructor that you trust who can tell you what needs fixing. Work on that and only that without going off course searching for that magic unicorn that you think you saw.

[epyon]

[quote name='Golfbeat' timestamp='1444394621' post='12432210']
At 2:30 Mike talks about the lower body correctly moving away from the ball.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RazJ5ghVi3c[/media]
[/quote]

This is an excellent video for me and has given me two key light bulb ideas. On my downswing, typically my right arm is pretty tense. I did not realize how much having a stiff left arm affected the rotation of the shoulder socket. This makes total sense to me after seeing him demonstrate the effects.

Secondly, mentioning that I need to push off the balls of my feet, not leaning back on my heels is huge. The difference between the two feels is very nuanced, but this makes so much more sense to me as a feel. To me, this mentally makes me want to feel like im pushing away and stabilizing my body, instead of trying to lean backwards to make room. The difference is subtle but really profound to me.

[ob1soccer]

great video

[Millbrook]

[quote name='Tanner25' timestamp='1444391361' post='12432062']
[quote name='Millbrook' timestamp='1444332511' post='12429118']
[quote name='JW223' timestamp='1444330452' post='12428938']
[quote name='chigolfer1' timestamp='1444326817' post='12428618']
Does the book in any way address steep/OTT swings? I'm not trying to get the info without buying the book but, as you've seen, this seems to be the main point of confusion.
[/quote]

Not sure about the book. But check out Malaska's YouTube channel. There were recently some lessons with a guy named Dan Murphy, who has a steep transition. The prescription is the same... hands in, clubhead out.

[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1444327167' post='12428646']
What I'm taking away from this is: [b]Have the correct amount of left forearm rotation blended into the downswing.[/b]
[/quote]

I agree. And proper hand path.
[/quote]

Could not agree more.

The whole 'stand the club up ' was a feel for the too shallow player. He doesn't mention this to Dan - just happened to be watching the video.

The key for all is 'the hands go down and the club goes out'.

Here is one of the videos with Dan;

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8ACufeOZTk"]https://www.youtube....h?v=k8ACufeOZTk[/url]

Some interesting comments on release and Jack Nicklaus saying 'you can't release too early'.
[/quote]

If this hockey move is done properly. Does one have to worry about starting the downswing with a lower body move (ground up)?
[/quote]

I would say yes with a but. For me practising this and I find the lower body looks after itself. However I will try the move mentioned in the video above and if I can get the 'arm' move ingrained will work some more on the lower body.

On the ea tischler thread there is a good video dealing with the 3 elements of the swing - arm move, torso and ground force you may find interesting.

[Parker0065]

Not going to get involved in all the madness and debate that always rages online but after researching many of Mike Malaska's online videos I'll just say this is some of the best "put together" and easy to understand instruction I've seen in a couple decades!

Due to the "hit from the inside"(everybody wants to hit the infamous push draw) and "create lag" messages that have been absorbed by the avid golfers who misinterpret much of what's put out on the internet, we have an entire generation of "handle dragging", "body spinning", "flippers and blockers"! I think that's what I like overall about Malaska's message is he's trying to help get people out of that mess. And absolutely it works for those OTT people that get completely out of position with their "hit from the top" hands and right shoulder jumping out towards the target line right from the start(hands don't work down)!

But individually it's all about communication and messaging! Like some that have posted some of the simularities between Malaska and Monte. All swings are different but there are certain things that have to be done to get into the one solid universal impact position, and every instructor is going to have different terminology and messaging in describing how to get there. Sometimes the message clicks, sometimes it doesn't, but I really like where Malaska's going with his instruction! Really good stuff!!

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='ryan983' timestamp='1444397570' post='12432390']
[quote name='Ted Williams' timestamp='1444388290' post='12431948']
Interesting to read that many of you have had prior one on one instruction prior to this thread.This only verifies to me that with all the confusion here in person instruction just isn't working
[/quote]

I would agree of there are plenty of guys out there giving in person lessons that shouldn't be but to say in person lessons don't work is a little too far reaching.

I'd say this thread just shows a few different things.

1. how quickly people are willing to chase the next magic move or new concept.

2. if you show a group of 10 people a you tube video on how to do move X, more than likely all of them will have a different feel of how to perform that move. What they feel like they are doing is probably not at all what they are doing. And there's a good chance said move isn't the best way to fix their biggest flaw.

3. You need to find a knowledgeable instructor that you trust who can tell you what needs fixing. Work on that and only that without going off course searching for that magic unicorn that you think you saw.
[/quote]

Well said - and not just a different feel, a different mental concept as well. And dont forget the influence of the placebo effect too!

[sethdavidsdad]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1444400623' post='12432650']
[quote name='ryan983' timestamp='1444397570' post='12432390']
[quote name='Ted Williams' timestamp='1444388290' post='12431948']
Interesting to read that many of you have had prior one on one instruction prior to this thread.This only verifies to me that with all the confusion here in person instruction just isn't working
[/quote]

I would agree of there are plenty of guys out there giving in person lessons that shouldn't be but to say in person lessons don't work is a little too far reaching.

I'd say this thread just shows a few different things.

1. how quickly people are willing to chase the next magic move or new concept.

2. if you show a group of 10 people a you tube video on how to do move X, more than likely all of them will have a different feel of how to perform that move. What they feel like they are doing is probably not at all what they are doing. And there's a good chance said move isn't the best way to fix their biggest flaw.

3. You need to find a knowledgeable instructor that you trust who can tell you what needs fixing. Work on that and only that without going off course searching for that magic unicorn that you think you saw.
[/quote]

Well said - and not just a different feel, a different mental concept as well. And dont forget the influence of the placebo effect too!
[/quote]
I have also found that a lot of local instructors teach in a similar fashion. They may teach a move that worked for several students recently or a move that is working for them currently in there own swing. They seem to change there methods frequently. We are all not lucky enough to have Jim, Monte, Dan, or other instructors close by. I hate to say some local PGA instructors are as bad as us golfwrx members, always trying to find the next magic move.